Jump to content

Should you level up your lords to above 50?


Hanes
 Share

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Jerry Kuma said:

First of all: If you don't agree with a point someone is making, you explain why you disagree with their point -- not ignore their point. That's how a discussion goes.

While Lyn may have high growth rates, it's not really going towards the stats that actually matter. Yeah, having a growth rate of 60% in speed sounds cool and all, however it's really overkill. And it really doesn't matter if you actually aren't capable of doing much damage in the first place. In her mode, she starts off with a base strength of 4, compared to Sain and Kent who has 8 and 6 base strength in the first place. Lyn's strength growth also is very decent, with her on average getting 10 strength by level 16!

And yea, Kent's strength growth is the same (with it also being 40%). However Kent starts off with a higher base and has 6 defense, compared to Lyn's 2. Allowing him to still do something damage-wise even if he was RNG-screwed in that stat.

 Lyn's poor defenses really holds her back. While she could potentially be a dodge tank, if she was to get hit even once it could really cripple her due to her poor base defense and her abysmal growth in that stat.

So while having Lyn isn't necessarily the worst thing in the world, she is a real liability even when trained. Since even if she were to promote at level 20, she would still on average have 11 defense, which some of your other units (specifically Sain and Kent) either have or has surpassed way before she promotes (considering that they can both be promoted MUCH EARLIER then she does). Lyn upon promotion also gains bow-use which while is something, makes her even more vulnerable on enemy phase.

Eliwood on the other hand, he's average. Just average. He is also sword-locked in a game where most enemies have lances and magic. Since he's average, he's not really excelling in one particular stat, which is actually a bad thing. Even at level 20, he won't be a remarkable fighter unpromoted and would easily be outmatched by mostly everyone. While his promotion is amazing (giving him more movement and the ability to use lances, giving him a chance against lance users) he could still be slightly outdone by your other units.

Hector is good, but he certainly isn't the best. His low movement (which he will never gain any more of) holds him back from being effective on the battlefield. That alone really takes him down some pegs since having high movement allows a unit to assist, rescue, and attack enemies quicker. Which the latter can really determine if he lives or not.

So in the end: it isn't really worth training the three lords. Considering that all of them except for Hector would end up as very decent units who have been outperformed by most other units even when trained. I rather just do the one hard FoW chapter rather than spend more time feeding kills to units who, as stated before would be outperformed by almost everyone else anyways.

I don't remember ignoring it though, but suit yourself, I will try to answer back if I notice it. Also, is it really necessary to make those long posts? Can't we just take 1 issue or 2 and focus on those at a time? It takes very long to write back against those.

Lyn can do decent damage though, even with a base of 4, she kills many enemies in her mode due to Mani Katti, which regenarates when she rejoins, so it's not an issue, since by the end of her mode, she has 8 STR and so. SPD isn't overkill if you have a LUK stat to complement it. Just watch Matthew, he has 20 SPD in my youtube playthrough and he can dodge axe wielders at a 8% hit rate, very reliable dodgetank there. Lyn is similiar in that aspect, since she has better LUK than Matthew.

Lyn makes up for her lack of DEF by doubling a lot of enemies that Kent can't double in her mode, same for Sain. She doesn't need much DEF when she has a good HP growth and receives a great boost to it upon promotion, at which point, her DEF is usually 9 or so, which is enough to pull her together for the later parts of the game. Specially since she also receives a bigger boost to RES, making mages causing scratch damage to her. I rarely had any issues with her DEF, since It's not like I force to face an entire cavalry squad by herself, just like pretty much everyone else.

She's not a liability when trained, (she rarely is even when she rejoins) her amazing SPD and LUK make her one of the hardest units to hit, specially if exploiting terrain to her advantage, and lances usually need 3-4 hits to kill her, which is pretty good, since that means that she can afford to bait 2 of those and more against other type of units, specially axefighters.

Kent is one of the best units, so him being superior to Lyn is somewhat expected, he's the 3rd best unit in the game after all, while Lyn is the 8th.

Eliwood is slightly above average, thus making him a B rank unit as I said. He has a poor start, but once his DEF and RES keep rolling in, he becomes a decent tank, almost as good as Kent at that. His SPD is also similiar to Kent's, so once promoted he becomes Kent whitout the LUK issues. In the end Kent will contribute more, thus being significantly better, but Eliwood will be able to act as his clone and do things on the other sides of the map if Kent can't be there.

Hector is the best, great DEF and STR, can virtually tank everything once promoted (and can pretty much negate most physical attacks before then), thus making him better than pretty much any unit, since being unkillable makes you a god in this game, specially since they rely on numbers rather than power to hurt you, meaning that Hector can pretty much negate a whole army of physical attackers no sweat. 15 DEF pretty much makes him virtually invincible for the early game and most of the midgame, which Marcus has difficulty to do so, what with taking 7 damage or so per hit in chapter 19 for instance. Tanking is king, specially since he has 5 MOV against Oswin's 4 MOV, thus not suffering from the same problem as Knights and acting as a proper footunit. I don't need more than 5, I want stats not movement. You say whatever he lives or not is dependant on movement, but that is false when most enemies  early on cause physical damage which he negates. 

In the end, they are worthy units. You don't need to feed them, you just have to use them normally as they are supposed to do, in order to level them up. Make use of their traits. I cannot think of many that outperform Lyn, as for Eliwood, just having an extra Kent later on is more than worth the small investment placed on him.

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 84
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

43 minutes ago, ping said:

Hector is the best unit in the game for precisely one chapter. His earlygame is still very strong, but he is immediately outclassed by Marcus (which isn't a big deal since everyone is outclassed by Marcus) and other units will start to overtake him when their defense grow into "good enough" territory. His mid- to lategame isn't top tier anymore, especially in his own mode because of his very late promotion in it. He's good (like 7-8 / 10 good), but more limited than quite a few other units.

The tradeoff isn't "LEH vs. nothing", the tradeoff is LEH vs. three other units" (or any partial exchange). And as I already said, FE7's lords are certainly not in a tier of their own. "More good units" really doesn't matter, given that you can't deploy your entire roster anyway, especially on HHM (can't remember if EHM's deployment numbers quite as low as HHM's, but iirc they're at least lower than in ENM and HNM).

 

Only one? Most enemies are physical, tanking them to death is a great asset for most chapters.

Lords don't need to be on a tier of their own, they only need to be good, which they are. If all it took is for someone to be better than them to not use them, then I wouldn't use anyone except Hector, a healer and a mounted knight, Kent at that. One can't deploy the entire roster, but I don't have to worry about that with Lyn and Hector, since they are already part of the best 10 units. Not so much for Eliwood, but as long as he reaches lv 10 before Linus chapter and reaches lv 20 before the second heaven seal, than all is well and good.

Marcus isn't outclassing anyone with those stats and growths, he outclasses most units by early game, but Hector surpasses him by lv 15 or so before even promoting, due to having better stats all around, with the exception of HP and RES and maybe STR. Marcus lacks the growths to keep being best unit for much longer than 10 chapters at best. That's not what being the best unit is.

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I don't remember ignoring it though, but suit yourself, I will try to answer back if I notice it. Also, is it really necessary to make those long posts? Can't we just take 1 issue or 2 and focus on those at a time? It takes very long to write back against those.

Lyn can do decent damage though, even with a base of 4, she kills many enemies in her mode due to Mani Katti, which regenarates when she rejoins, so it's not an issue, since by the end of her mode, she has 8 STR and so. SPD isn't overkill if you have a LUK stat to complement it. Just watch Matthew, he has 20 SPD in my youtube playthrough and he can dodge axe wielders at a 8% hit rate, very reliable dodgetank there. Lyn is similiar in that aspect, since she has better LUK than Matthew.

Lyn makes up for her lack of DEF by doubling a lot of enemies that Kent can't double in her mode, same for Sain. She doesn't need much DEF when she has a good HP growth and receives a great boost to it upon promotion, at which point, her DEF is usually 9 or so, which is enough to pull her together for the later parts of the game. Specially since she also receives a bigger boost to RES, making mages causing scratch damage to her. I rarely had any issues with her DEF, since It's not like I force to face an entire cavalry squad by herself, just like pretty much everyone else.

She's not a liability when trained, (she rarely is even when she rejoins) her amazing SPD and LUK make her one of the hardest units to hit, specially if exploiting terrain to her advantage, and lances usually need 3-4 hits to kill her, which is pretty good, since that means that she can afford to bait 2 of those and more against other type of units, specially axefighters.

Kent is one of the best units, so him being superior to Lyn is somewhat expected, he's the 3rd best unit in the game after all, while Lyn is the 8th.

Eliwood is slightly above average, thus making him a B rank unit as I said. He has a poor start, but once his DEF and RES keep rolling in, he becomes a decent tank, almost as good as Kent at that. His SPD is also similiar to Kent's, so once promoted he becomes Kent whitout the LUK issues. In the end Kent will contribute more, thus being significantly better, but Eliwood will be able to act as his clone and do things on the other sides of the map if Kent can't be there.

Hector is the best, great DEF and STR, can virtually tank everything once promoted (and can pretty much negate most physical attacks before then), thus making him better than pretty much any unit, since being unkillable makes you a god in this game, specially since they rely on numbers rather than power to hurt you, meaning that Hector can pretty much negate a whole army of physical attackers no sweat. 15 DEF pretty much makes him virtually invincible for the early game and most of the midgame, which Marcus has difficulty to do so, what with taking 7 damage or so per hit in chapter 19 for instance. Tanking is king, specially since he has 5 MOV against Oswin's 4 MOV, thus not suffering from the same problem as Knights and acting as a proper footunit. I don't need more than 5, I want stats not movement. You say whatever he lives or not is dependant on movement, but that is false when most enemies  early on cause physical damage which he negates. 

In the end, they are worthy units. You don't need to feed them, you just have to use them normally as they are supposed to do, in order to level them up. Make use of their traits. I cannot think of many that outperform Lyn, as for Eliwood, just having an extra Kent later on is more than worth the small investment placed on him.

Firstly, Lyn probably doesn't have 8 strength by the end of Lyn mode. She on average receives 8 strength by level 8. Which is something you can only really achieve if you specifically go out of your way to include her in some battles during Lyn mode. Something which is entirely possible to not do due to her usually needing assistance during to kill an opponent since while she can double, she isn't doing a whole lot of damage. Not to mention that Raven at base joins with 8 strength and is generally the same stat-wise as a trained Lyn. Once again, my main point was that while these units could be used, they aren't really worth training due to them (Eliwood and Lyn) being outperformed by many others. Something that makes a unit good in my opinion is a unit who is able to actually do something with little to no training. In order for Eliwood and Lyn to be usable, you have to actually train them or else they will fall pretty quickly. But even when they're trained they aren't all that impressive. Also, while Lyn is able to perform well against a single opponent; that's the thing she can only perform well when she's put in to these very controlled spaces. Compared to other units who are able to do just fine even against a group of enemies all at once.

You can argue all you want about them being good when they're trained. But the thing is that any unit can become decent or good when trained. The same amount of effort you put in to Eliwood and/or Lyn could be put in to a unit who could perform even better (such as Raven, who can do the job as a fast but strong attacker almost the moment he joins). Hector is indeed able to tank hits in the beginning of game, but usually a player would probably bench him in favor of a unit who have better MOV or literally whatever other reason. I mean yea, Hector can be impervious to hits all through out the game -- but that's if you go out of your way to put him in to battles. Potentially taking away the spot from another unit who could do even better then him.

 Also, I do sort of agree that stat boosts > movement. But it depends on the unit. If the movement already had fine movement already, then sure I would go for the promotion that has the better boosts. But if the unit in question is infantry with average movement, of course I'm going for the promotion that offers a horse. Since the thing with horse units in the GBA Fire Emblem game is that they have utility. They can reposition themselves after doing certain actions, allowing them to be able to do things like trade have good con (generally), and have two types of weapons. Yea, it's nice to have stat boosters, but if you're being offered extra stuff that could make the unit even better in exchange for one less point, I'm taking that.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Only one? Most enemies are physical, tanking them to death is a great asset for most chapters.

Hector is hardly the only unit capable of doing so. In fact, Raven and the cavaliers (all of whom are better than Hector), for example, can do the same thing.

Quote

Lords don't need to be on a tier of their own, they only need to be good, which they are.

Hector, definitely, though "good" is all he is. Eliwood and Lyn on the other hand are definitely mediocre. You don't even need to be on Serenes to find anyone who'll tell you this.

Quote

If all it took is for someone to be better than them to not use them, then I wouldn't use anyone except Hector, a healer and a mounted knight, Kent at that. 

There's a difference between saying that you shouldn't use a unit, and saying that a unit isn't an optimal choice to use, you know.

Also, Hector isn't all-powerful to the point of being able to conquer everything in the game.

Quote

One can't deploy the entire roster, but I don't have to worry about that with Lyn and Hector, since they are already part of the best 10 units.

Under what unit judgement criteria? Because they're certainly anything but among the 10 best units under assuming that the player is ranking or playing efficiently. (Said units within said number under said criteria would be Marcus, Ninian/Nils, Florina, Priscilla, Sain, Kent, Matthew, Raven, Serra, and Pent.)

Quote

Not so much for Eliwood, but as long as he reaches lv 10 before Linus chapter and reaches lv 20 before the second heaven seal, than all is well and good.

One can argue that you make the game easier by not giving him any Heaven Seal at all.

Quote

Marcus isn't outclassing anyone with those stats and growths, he outclasses most units by early game, but Hector surpasses him by lv 15 or so before even promoting

How is this the case when Hector doesn't even reach Marcus' base Spd until he promotes? Or that Marcus would possibly already have his level capped by then? Or the mere simple fact that Marcus is in a better class than Hector?

Quote

Marcus lacks the growths to keep being best unit for much longer than 10 chapters at best. That's not what being the best unit is.

Good thing Marcus takes far longer than 10 chapters (if any) to actually become irrelevant. In fact, one can argue that Marcus is one of those who starts off strong, remains strong if you've used him during his strong start, and manages to remain relevant even when there are other units to pick up the slack. Hector, on the other hand, while he too starts off strong and remains strong with use, he's held back by various factors, causing him to become basically irrelevant when there's other units to pick up the slack. If anything, becoming irrelevant when there's other units to pick up the slack is not what any unit that can be called the best unit in the game does.

Edited by Just call me AL
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Jerry Kuma said:

Which is something you can only really achieve if you specifically go out of your way to include her in some battles during Lyn mode. Something which is entirely possible to not do due to her usually needing assistance during to kill an opponent since while she can double, she isn't doing a whole lot of damage.

When was the last time you played Lyn mode? Everything dies to a sneeze there.

Honestly, if you don't get Lyn to lv 8 by the end of LHM, you shouldn't even be discussing her merits because it means you're not using her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Florete said:

When was the last time you played Lyn mode? Everything dies to a sneeze there.

Honestly, if you don't get Lyn to lv 8 by the end of LHM, you shouldn't even be discussing her merits because it means you're not using her.

Well, it doesn't invalidate my other points. Since the crux of Jorge's argument is that you have to train her for her to be useful. But if she isn't even able to do much even in LHM, it should tell you something about her usefulness. Also, the last time I checked, she can't even ORKO axe-users even after the first few chapters on average. I also rather train other units like Florina and the mages then Lyn (the mages especially since they attack at 1-2 range, able to double after a bit, and have slightly better damage output).

Edited by Jerry Kuma
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Marcus isn't outclassing anyone with those stats and growths, he outclasses most units by early game, but Hector surpasses him by lv 15 or so before even promoting, due to having better stats all around, with the exception of HP and RES and maybe STR. Marcus lacks the growths to keep being best unit for much longer than 10 chapters at best. That's not what being the best unit is.

Earlygame is important. In the endgame, literally every unit can be viable if you trained them beforehand, which is why "good in the endgame" is not a particularly big deal in FE7. Meanwhile, there are zero units that can even remotely replicate Marcus's earlygame.

And

On 19.6.2018 at 4:38 PM, ping said:

I'll happily eat my words if you can present a unit that has a bigger performance lead over the entire rest of the team than Marcus does in the first half of the game. Until then, I'll keep saying that "DONT USE THE JAGEN" is the worst advice one can give to a new player.

So yeah, Marcus is indisputably the best unit in the game. By a country mile, no less. 

Edited by ping
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, ping said:

Earlygame is important. In the endgame, literally every unit can be viable if you trained them beforehand, which is why "good in the endgame" is not a particularly big deal in FE7. Meanwhile, there are zero units that can even remotely replicate Marcus's earlygame.

And

So yeah, Marcus is indisputably the best unit in the game. By a country mile, no less. 

Earlygame is just as important as midgame and lategame. They can be trained, but that's precisely why it is slightly easier, if you were to rely on someone like Marcus, it would be harder, so that's not a good thing, always use the units with best potential. That's why you should have powerfull units, precisely so you can have an easier time with lategame and midgame, since there's no shortage of hard chapters there in HHM.

Hector can replicate though. Already had  12 DEF by the time of chapter 17 after all. Marcus on the other hand is still stuck with 10 DEF. And would you look at that, Kent also has 10 DEF due to giving him the Dracoshield (that some people would rather waste on Marcus and his pathetic 15% DEF growth and lack of promotion gains), now he's pretty much Marcus with better growths and he's not promoted yet.

Not really, if he's the best unit in the game, then Hector is the best unit in the game and beyond the catridge. Marcus is a hindrance by midgame and lategame with those stats, that's why I bench him in chapter 21, he's not worth keep using with those disapointing growths.

Florete is right as well, if you honestly can't bring Lyn to lv 8 when the game pretty much gives you freebies to her for most of her mode, then you are doing something wrong. This is how Lyn Hard Mode should be played.

 

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

Hector is hardly the only unit capable of doing so. In fact, Raven and the cavaliers (all of whom are better than Hector), for example, can do the same thing.

Hector, definitely, though "good" is all he is. Eliwood and Lyn on the other hand are definitely mediocre. You don't even need to be on Serenes to find anyone who'll tell you this.

There's a difference between saying that you shouldn't use a unit, and saying that a unit isn't an optimal choice to use, you know.

Also, Hector isn't all-powerful to the point of being able to conquer everything in the game.

Under what unit judgement criteria? Because they're certainly anything but among the 10 best units under assuming that the player is ranking or playing efficiently. (Said units within said number under said criteria would be Marcus, Ninian/Nils, Florina, Priscilla, Sain, Kent, Matthew, Raven, Serra, and Pent.)

One can argue that you make the game easier by not giving him any Heaven Seal at all.

How is this the case when Hector doesn't even reach Marcus' base Spd until he promotes? Or that Marcus would possibly already have his level capped by then? Or the mere simple fact that Marcus is in a better class than Hector?

Good thing Marcus takes far longer than 10 chapters (if any) to actually become irrelevant. In fact, one can argue that Marcus is one of those who starts off strong, remains strong if you've used him during his strong start, and manages to remain relevant even when there are other units to pick up the slack. Hector, on the other hand, while he too starts off strong and remains strong with use, he's held back by various factors, causing him to become basically irrelevant when there's other units to pick up the slack. If anything, becoming irrelevant when there's other units to pick up the slack is not what any unit that can be called the best unit in the game does.

Raven can't do it, he only has 6 DEF when he joins, same for the Cavaliers who only have 2-3 points higher than Raven by the time they rejoin. Hector has already 15 DEF by chapter 19, they don't have a way to catch up to a 50% DEF growth.

Except it isn't all he is, since he's the best unit in the game, he pretty much can tank anything, even magic, once promoted, he's virtually unkillable, way more so than Marcus is, who is already taking 7-12 damage by chapter 19, while Hector is taking around 4 or so.

No they aren't. Lyn is good, Eliwood is above average, not exactly good, but still worth using for being a Kent clone once promoted. It doesn't matter if it's Serenes or anywhere else, anyone who would claim otherwise I will argue against it, since they fail to grasp their proper use. All it shows is that the FE community has degraded over time and became too obsessed with turn counts to realize that effectiveness is more important than efficiency.

And that difference is, that Marcus isn't optimal and shouldn't be used beyond a certain point, that is chapter 20. There are better units to deploy at that point.

Neither is Marcus, Hector can tank better than him after all.

That list would be wrong then. The best 10 units would be in order: Hector, Raven, Kent, Lucius, Heath, Serra, Ninian, Lyn, Sain and Florina/Fiora. And I'm basing this criteria over effectiveness and efficiency, as it should be.

That's nonsense, a Heaven Seal is given to you for free and gives a impressive stats boost due to great promotion gains for all 3 lords. It only makes the game easier.

Yeah right, Marcus only has 11 SPD, Hector has 12 SPD by lv 20. Not to mention that doesn't excuse Marcus' 10 DEF which almost never increases via level ups, against Hector who has 18 DEF by then. Better class under what grounds? Movement? DEF is more important than movement, movement becomes almost obsolete once villages and chests are secured. As for weapon triangle, Hector can use Silver Axes soon enough and has better growths, so using Hector over Marcus is the prefered outcome when it comes to who is the main tank of the two.

Not at all, it doesn't take much longer than that, since Marcus already has leveled 4-5 times by then and his stats will still not impress compared to Hector who is lv 15 at that point. Hector can tank better, has just as much STR if not more and can negate virtually every physical attack, Marcus on the other hand is stuck with the same DEF over and over again. At that point, I have more units that deserve to be deployed than Marcus does, since they have more potential than him. He's not good enough for lategame, his pitiful 12-13 SPD and 10 isn't good enough. It's shamefull when even Pent can tank better than he does at that point. I'm better served using him, since at least his growths are somewhat better than Marcus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

Florete is right as well, if you honestly can't bring Lyn to lv 8 when the game pretty much gives you freebies to her for most of her mode, then you are doing something wrong. This is how Lyn Hard Mode should be played.

Fascinating, I never considered that there might be a way how a game "should" be played. But honestly, the concept seems incredibly pretentious, especially if one would claim that their own playstyle was how to play "correctly".

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

Hector can replicate though. Already had  12 DEF by the time of chapter 17 after all. Marcus on the other hand is still stuck with 10 DEF. And would you look at that, Kent also has 10 DEF due to giving him the Dracoshield (that some people would rather waste on Marcus and his pathetic 15% DEF growth and lack of promotion gains), now he's pretty much Marcus with better growths and he's not promoted yet.

You either miss or ignore the point.

If Hector was able to replicate Marcus' feats by chapter 17 (he isn't - he'll outtank Marcus at some point, but Marcus will still be stronger, will double more consistently, will have full weapon triangle control to amplify his already much higher accuracy, will have access to Silver Swords and Silver Lances, can have access to Silver Axes faster than Hector if you focus on his Axe rank, will always have three more movement points than Hector and will always have Canto), that would be 6 chapters in which Hector could not replicate Marcus.

Really, you're saying that Hector can do everything Marcus does because he can catch up with him in one single aspect. That's cherrypicking taken to a new level - I'm going to say that I would always (if I could) choose base level Marcus over max level unpromoted Hector because...

23 hours ago, ping said:

other units will start to overtake [Hector] when their defense grow into "good enough" territory. His mid- to lategame isn't top tier anymore, especially in his own mode because of his very late promotion in it.

I'd also like to point out that chapters 12, 13, 13x, 14 and 15 are even more earlygame than chapter 17 and raise the question if you're even aware of how absurd Marcus is in those. Because honestly, you still didn't manage to address this:

On 19.6.2018 at 4:38 PM, ping said:

I'll happily eat my words if you can present a unit that has a bigger performance lead over the entire rest of the team than Marcus does in the first half of the game. Until then, I'll keep saying that "DONT USE THE JAGEN" is the worst advice one can give to a new player.

So yeah, Marcus is indisputably the best unit in the game. By a country mile, no less, and these words remain un-eaten.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lmao this guy being a fucking prima donna about every topic he disagrees with. at this point you gotta have some self-awareness of how unreasonable you sound, eh?

 

Lyn is borderline garbage in non-lyn mode runs. At that point, you're only using her if you really like the free deployment she gets sometimes or if you really like Geitz. (which is fair). Our of your pre-Dread Isle units, she only really beats out the archers and maybe bartre/dorcas/non-HHM guy. But considering the axedudes at least get 1-2 range and can earlypromote if one wants, that kinda leaves Lyn being shafted. I'm sure there's a Lyn vs Eliwood debate somewhere on sf so I'm not going to touch that.

even if we were to train units for lategame potential, Lyn doesn't do much. She's rangelocked no matter what and eats a heaven's seal that could be used on Eliwood/Hector depending on the mode. Eliwood, at 20/1 is easy enough to train with javelin spam and whatnot. Hector at 20/1 in Eliwood modes is pretty much unkillable unless you put him against Sonia while he's at like 10 HP or something.

Lyn's performance is so horrible that Mekkah has made not one, but two in depth videos discussing her. If this was say fe13/14 where enemies aren't swarming over you and you get resources and the option to not be a myrmidon type class long-term, then maybe I could see the value in her being decent. But as it is, she's horrible without favoritism and fails to keep up once her manni katti is gone. Hell, a 10/1 HHM guy probably does better than an LHM trained lvl 8 Lyn in HHM. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, ping said:

Fascinating, I never considered that there might be a way how a game "should" be played. But honestly, the concept seems incredibly pretentious, especially if one would claim that their own playstyle was how to play "correctly".

You either miss or ignore the point.

If Hector was able to replicate Marcus' feats by chapter 17 (he isn't - he'll outtank Marcus at some point, but Marcus will still be stronger, will double more consistently, will have full weapon triangle control to amplify his already much higher accuracy, will have access to Silver Swords and Silver Lances, can have access to Silver Axes faster than Hector if you focus on his Axe rank, will always have three more movement points than Hector and will always have Canto), that would be 6 chapters in which Hector could not replicate Marcus.

Really, you're saying that Hector can do everything Marcus does because he can catch up with him in one single aspect. That's cherrypicking taken to a new level - I'm going to say that I would always (if I could) choose base level Marcus over max level unpromoted Hector because...

I'd also like to point out that chapters 12, 13, 13x, 14 and 15 are even more earlygame than chapter 17 and raise the question if you're even aware of how absurd Marcus is in those. Because honestly, you still didn't manage to address this:

So yeah, Marcus is indisputably the best unit in the game. By a country mile, no less, and these words remain un-eaten.

Considering that my own playstyle works well, yes, it's correctly. There are other variations of how to do Lyn's mode correctly, so it's just not my own, but they usually should have Lyn in the frontlines against the axefighters, which are a good deal of enemies in her mode. There's nothing pretentious about it, you either refuse to use Lyn just to spite her or you use her so you can have a better time against enemies.

I'm neither, since your point doesn't convince me, I have no reason to think otherwise.

Marcus has a 30% STR growth, a 25% SPD growth and a 15% DEF growth, Hector on the other hand has a 60% STR growth, a 35% SPD growth and a 50% DEF growth, on top of that, he starts with only 2 less DEF points than Marcus and grows much more than Marcus does, not to mention he has promotion gains. If you honestly think that Marcus can hold up to that, you have another thing coming. Hector can use Silver Axes by that point as well. He's not having an A rank in axes unless that's the only thing he has been using. Also, Marcus has 15 STR and keeps that way for a while unless blessed, Hector already has 17 STR by then. Movement is pointless, since you already have at least 4 better units than Marcus doing that, those being Kent, Florina/Fiora, Sain and even Lowen.

There's no cherrypicking though. Also, it's not a single point, we are talking about STR,DEF, HP and even SPD, he has him beat in those after promotion easily.

 

Tanking is the only reason why I even bother use Marcus at all,strip him of that and I have plenty of other units that can do the movement part, so tell me, what exactly does Marcus does that my other units don't beyond chapter 20? Specially since at that point for tanking Hector already has that part covered and Kent has both the tanking and movement part covered (tanking being lesser than Hector's but still does a good job and doesn't suffer from defective growths and lack of promotion gains).

I would like to point out that he's absolutely unecessary for chapter 12 as proven by my video. He's only there to get the secret book and be there as an emergency unit just in case. 13 is mostly Hector's show, since some enemies are cavaliers and he destroys Pegasus for more experience and stat gains. I agree with the rest, 13x, 14 ,15 and 17 require some significant Marcus action because of villages and chests. I didn't adress, because you didn't ask before, at least that I noted.

So, no, he's not. Sorry to rain on your parade, but unless Marcus has 35% DEF growth and a 40% SPD growth, he will never be one of the best, let alone the best unit. I don't care if you eat them or not, If anyone says that Marcus is the best unit, I will always point out the problems with that mentality whetever they believe it or not, that's up to you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Considering that my own playstyle works well, yes, it's correctly

Yeah no, saying your way to play is correct and the only way to play is some elitest and pretentious bullshit. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

So, no, he's not. Sorry to rain on your parade, but unless Marcus has 35% DEF growth and a 40% SPD growth, he will never be one of the best, let alone the best unit. I don't care if you eat them or not, If anyone says that Marcus is the best unit, I will always point out the problems with that mentality whetever they believe it or not, that's up to you.

Literally everyone but you agrees that Marcus is the single best unit in the game. 

Its the fact that his starting bases and weapon ranks are so high, combined with the relative weakness of enemies in the game that makes Marcus God or marcus teir. By the time you've reached the endgame when everyone is one rounding, what does it matter if he's fallen behind, it's the ENDGAME? And even then he's still a competent fighter 

 

movement is one of the most important stats in the game, and being mounted is a huge deal, Marcus has both of these. High movement lets you reach enemies faster and clear maps easier, and mounted units have utility like rescue and canto. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Yeah no, saying your way to play is correct and the only way to play is some elitest and pretentious bullshit. 

 

 

Literally everyone but you agrees that Marcus is the single best unit in the game. 

Its the fact that his starting bases and weapon ranks are so high, combined with the relative weakness of enemies in the game that makes Marcus God or marcus teir. By the time you've reached the endgame when everyone is one rounding, what does it matter if he's fallen behind, it's the ENDGAME? And even then he's still a competent fighter 

 

movement is one of the most important stats in the game, and being mounted is a huge deal, Marcus has both of these. High movement lets you reach enemies faster and clear maps easier, and mounted units have utility like rescue and canto. 

And saying that Lyn is "garbage" isn't pretentious sounding at all to you? Also, I'm sure your way also works fine, but dismissing a unit when she has pretty good stats seems just people not wanting to bother at all.

Then everyone can't be trusted with telling me how to play FE, I'm afraid. As I said before, the FE community seems to be degenerated from a effective playstyle to a efficiency playstyle that sacrifices everything else.

Starting bases are nothing when he keeps those bases for most part of the game, isn't something for him to be proud of.

Movement is only truely important in Genealogy, New Mistery and maybe Binding Blade. Outside of that, you don't really need much movement, specially since treasure chests and villages are less common than in those games where they are more predominant. In New Mistery's case it helps clear dangerous enemies instead, which are much less common in Blazing Sword, since it's their numbers that are dangerous, not their stats, thus, a tank can deal with them fine. Hector can also rescue no problem. Canto is the only thing that I agree with, and even then, it only has some use.

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

And saying that Lyn is "garbage" isn't pretentious sounding at all to you? Also, I'm sure your way also works fine, but dismissing a unit when she has pretty good stats seems just people not wanting to bother at all.

I'm in the camp that thinks Lyn is not as "garbage" as people think. It's in my "opinion" that she's a decent unit. I certainly don't go around calling her one of the best becusse she is not. And IM not the one calling her garbage, so chill

 

WHAT DO YOU MEAN EFFECTIVE?? Explain what is an "effective playstyle?" If it's just using good units, then 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@DiogoJorge You need to realize that most of your argument's crux is on consistently leveling up the lords. The reason why a unit like Raven or Sain are better is because they're able to perform well without needing to be constantly leveled up. I have benched units like Sain or Marcus out for a few chapters and brought them back and they were still able to do amazing (heck, Sain and Kent were able to ORKO enemies in Lloyd's version of Four-Fanged Offense). Eliwood and Lyn on the other hand, would likely not perform as well due to them not recieving level ups "consistently".

Edited by Jerry Kuma
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

I'm in the camp that thinks Lyn is not as "garbage" as people think. It's in my "opinion" that she's a decent unit. I certainly don't go around calling her one of the best becusse she is not. And IM not the one calling her garbage, so chill

 

WHAT DO YOU MEAN EFFECTIVE?? Explain what is an "effective playstyle?" If it's just using good units, then 

Good, that's how it should be. If you think she's decent, then you are on the right track.

Effective, means overall better stats, not using units whose stats barely grow at all and are stuck below 20 for key ones.

It basically means that you are either tanking most enemies or doubling most enemies. Marcus for instance isn't very effective (still better than Dorcas and Barte who take forever to double anything and poor availability units like Nino and Renault (and the latter has bad growths and bases anyway).

Why is that? Because his SPD and DEF growths both refuse to grow, he's pretty much relies solely on his STR and RES growth to keep going which aren't spectacular either. He can be used as far as endgame if you really want to, but the question is, do you really want to drag along a unit like that, when you already get Pent who tanks better than him? As well Hawkeye and Harken later on? Because I would rather use those, even if their growths aren't anything special over Marcus, specially Harken. Isadora works as well, even though she doesn't tank as much, by making up for it with a good SPD growth, specially since she has the same STR growth compared to Marcus, has a 15 SPD base and a 50% SPD growth.

In order for Marcus to be effective, he would need a 40% DEF growth or a 45% SPD growth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Jerry Kuma said:

@DiogoJorge You need to realize that most of your argument's crux is on consistently leveling up the lords. The reason why a unit like Raven or Sain are better is because they're able to perform well without needing to be constantly leveled up. I have benched units like Sain or Marcus out for a few chapters and brought them back and they were still able to do amazing (heck, Sain and Kent were able to ORKO enemies in Lloyd's version of Four-Fanged Offense). Eliwood and Lyn on the other hand, would likely not perform as well due to them not recieving level ups "consistently".

Everyone levels consistently to me though,with little issue. What about Kent, why Sain? Sain is slower than Kent, Kent is preferable. And they do need to level up in order to remain good for when they rejoin. If it's only for a few chapters, then it's usually not a problem, Sain I already benched him for good in my current playthrough, since his SPD refused to grow, normally he would be good enough to replace Marcus at some point, but not this time, going to try my luck with Lowen and see if he can pick up the pace, if not, that's fine, since it is extra experience for the rank.

I doubt you benched them for long if they were still ORKO.

I can bench Lyn for a few chapters as well, and she still did a good job, since she's usually lv 14 after chapter 20. Agreed somewhat with Eliwood who is always barely above average even when leveling. Being a Kent clone later on and skipping Lloyd's fog chapter makes it worth it though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

dude learn what PEMN means.

Personal. Experience. Means. Nothing.

Objectively, your own personal experience means all of jack shit in the face of averages and comparative performance vs enemies. 

Growths are growths, and SF has the averages per level. All you literally need to do is plug them in. We've even got HHM enemy stats listen on the site/forums.

Personal preference aside, Sain on average will double enough enemies for a ORKO. Kent might be doubling/avoiding getting doubled by some enemies sooner, but it's not worth the strength deficit in comparison.

 

if you want to say something like "Rebecca is good because you enjoy using her", that's fine and dandy. But coming in here with this elitist mentality of "my playstyle is the only correct way to judge a unit for others" when you don't want to define anything is not how you should engage in a discussion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like how Diogo's definition for "effectiveness" doesn't include the actual goal of the game. I, too, like to measure football players purely by how many kilometers they run per match.

Edited by ping
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Everyone levels consistently to me though,with little issue. What about Kent, why Sain? Sain is slower than Kent, Kent is preferable. And they do need to level up in order to remain good for when they rejoin. If it's only for a few chapters, then it's usually not a problem, Sain I already benched him for good in my current playthrough, since his SPD refused to grow, normally he would be good enough to replace Marcus at some point, but not this time, going to try my luck with Lowen and see if he can pick up the pace, if not, that's fine, since it is extra experience for the rank.

I doubt you benched them for long if they were still ORKO.

I can bench Lyn for a few chapters as well, and she still did a good job, since she's usually lv 14 after chapter 20. Agreed somewhat with Eliwood who is always barely above average even when leveling. Being a Kent clone later on and skipping Lloyd's fog chapter makes it worth it though.

 

 I was using Sain and Kent as a general example of units who I could bench for long periods of time but could still do well when brought back (I actually benched them before that for a most of Dread Isle) (I promoted both Sain and Kent pretty early). But I don't want to step more into personal experience territory.

 

Point is: unless you're going out of your way to use Lyn or Eliwood for most chapters, they would still take a notable hit in their damage output when even benched for a few chapters. With Lyn probably not even ORKO'ing an enemy, leaving her vulnerable. While the same could apply for other units, they can at least take hits better. And as I've shown before, Lyn specifically is a very frail unit. And while she can dodge-tank after a certain point in the midgame, if she does get hit (which can happen more then you think due to the hit rate lie) she would be screwed. 

Edited by Jerry Kuma
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Good, that's how it should be. If you think she's decent, then you are on the right track.

 

Yes I think she's "decent"

thats it 

 

not top teir like you claim 

I recognize her flaws and that there are units who do so much better than her 

if your gonna argue that Lyn is top tier and Marcus is trash

 

personal experience means nothing 

We have the averages and HHM enemy stats right here on SF, go look them up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Jerry Kuma said:

Well, it doesn't invalidate my other points. Since the crux of Jorge's argument is that you have to train her for her to be useful. But if she isn't even able to do much even in LHM, it should tell you something about her usefulness. Also, the last time I checked, she can't even ORKO axe-users even after the first few chapters on average. I also rather train other units like Florina and the mages then Lyn (the mages especially since they attack at 1-2 range, able to double after a bit, and have slightly better damage output).

Oh I'm not planning to touch the rest of this discussion, it just triggers me a bit when people call a unit bad despite not even giving them a chance. It's circular logic that results in a "unit is bad, therefore unit doesn't get used, now unit is bad" cycle.

There are some enemies early on that Lyn doesn't ORKO, but neither does anyone else at that time. Lyn's battle performance in LHM is on par with or better than anyone else in LHM pretty much until you get Wallace, and only if you promote him.

Train who you want when you play, I care not. But if you're going to talk about Lyn's ability, you're using her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Florete said:

Oh I'm not planning to touch the rest of this discussion, it just triggers me a bit when people call a unit bad despite not even giving them a chance. It's circular logic that results in a "unit is bad, therefore unit doesn't get used, now unit is bad" cycle.

There are some enemies early on that Lyn doesn't ORKO, but neither does anyone else at that time. Lyn's battle performance in LHM is on par with or better than anyone else in LHM pretty much until you get Wallace, and only if you promote him.

Train who you want when you play, I care not. But if you're going to talk about Lyn's ability, you're using her.

Even though it's unlikely you would read this: something I have mention afterwards but  but should've elaborated on before was that yea, NO ONE is able to ORKO opponents initially. However the difference between them and Lyn is that they are able to take more hits (generally). Making said units more reliable and more useful. Both Kent and Sain are able to use two types of weapons, have better movement, better defense, and are almost always the ones who would carry your team through out LHM, better then Lyn herself. While the enemies in LHM are weak, Lyn can easily be killed if she doesn't dodge or if she doesn't have any support from another unit.

Also what chance should I or anyone else give? If a unit sucks, they suck. While yea, if you train them they would become decent, the same could be applied to anyone else. But the thing with Lyn is that even if you were to train her, she would still just be a "decent" unit who still can't take hits well on average I have tried to her train in the past to make her usable, but I benched her early in to Eliwood's mode because she was still doing little damage and was still frail). As I was explaining her level averages. What I'm getting from you is that you think I'm this type of guy who trashes units who can't solo maps. I'm not. If we're speaking from personal experience, I love using units like Nino, Donnel, and Mozu. Obviously, while they take a bit of work to get good, they're still fun to use when you get them up to speed. But that still doesn't mean they're good, it just means if you put more work in to them then other units, they would perform well. However the difference between them and Lyn is that there is no real pay-off even with all the level grinding. If you train Nino for a chapter, it's likely she's going to be able to hold her own in the next chapter and the rest of the game. But if you train Lyn, you would likely have a unit who is not even that special compared to the likes of Raven or even Guy. But once again, this is all down to personal experience . Your experience with Lyn could be very different from mine and it's why I prefer to stick to the numbers.

Also, you could put the same amount of attention you give to Lyn in to someone else, and make that better unit even better.

 

Edited by Jerry Kuma
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Jerry Kuma said:

Even though it's unlikely you would read this: something I have mention afterwards but  but should've elaborated on before was that yea, NO ONE is able to ORKO opponents initially. However the difference between them and Lyn is that they are able to take more hits (generally). Making said units more reliable and more useful. Both Kent and Sain are able to use two types of weapons, have better movement, better defense, and are almost always the ones who would carry your team through out LHM, better then Lyn herself. While the enemies in LHM are weak, Lyn can easily be killed if she doesn't dodge or if she doesn't have any support from another unit.

Also what chance should I or anyone else give? If a unit sucks, they suck. While yea, if you train them they would become decent, the same could be applied to anyone else. But the thing with Lyn is that even if you were to train her, she would still just be a "decent" unit who still can't take hits well on average I have tried to her train in the past to make her usable, but I benched her early in to Eliwood's mode because she was still doing little damage and was still frail). As I was explaining her level averages. What I'm getting from you is that you think I'm this type of guy who trashes units who can't solo maps. I'm not. If we're speaking from personal experience, I love using units like Nino, Donnel, and Mozu. Obviously, while they take a bit of work to get good, they're still fun to use when you get them up to speed. But that still doesn't mean they're good, it just means if you put more work in to them then other units, they would perform well. However the difference between them and Lyn is that there is no real pay-off even with all the level grinding. If you train Nino for a chapter, it's likely she's going to be able to hold her own in the next chapter and the rest of the game. But if you train Lyn, you would likely have a unit who is not even that special compared to the likes of Raven or even Guy. But once again, this is all down to personal experience . Your experience with Lyn could be very different from mine and it's why I prefer to stick to the numbers.

Also, you could put the same amount of attention you give to Lyn in to someone else, and make that better unit even better.

You're not getting what I'm saying at all.

Leave aside how good or bad you think Lyn is as a unit. It doesn't matter. You don't judge a unit based on not using them. If I'm going to judge a unit, I'm going to do so within the context of actually doing what I can with them to make them work.

Yeah, there are units better than Lyn. I'm not disagreeing. But so what? I can use whoever I want to use. No, I don't think you're the type of guy who trashes units who can't solo maps. You seem like the kind of guy who believes only the very best units should ever be used. It's a stifling way to judge units and not at all relative to how people actually play the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...