This boi uses Nino

Should you level up your lords to above 50?

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33 minutes ago, Florete said:

You're not getting what I'm saying at all.

Leave aside how good or bad you think Lyn is as a unit. It doesn't matter. You don't judge a unit based on not using them. If I'm going to judge a unit, I'm going to do so within the context of actually doing what I can with them to make them work.

Yeah, there are units better than Lyn. I'm not disagreeing. But so what? I can use whoever I want to use. No, I don't think you're the type of guy who trashes units who can't solo maps. You seem like the kind of guy who believes only the very best units should ever be used. It's a stifling way to judge units and not at all relative to how people actually play the game.

I just believe that even in LHM, other units are able to do her job better and quickly. She can obviously still be used -- not denying that. But those other units could still be used instead of Lyn with little to no consequences. But of course, no one is stopping you from using a "bad" unit. I never tried to say that "you can only use this unit because they're the best unit you can use". What I was trying to say is that one could use these other units with little to no cost.

I have said that even if you use Lyn and try to make her work, you're not getting much from her, using the her averages to show that you won't.

 And as I said before, I love using growth units and units who are "decent". However sometimes you need to push your personal opinions aside and admit you could be using better . I usually use units who are mandatory to use in the earlier chapter with no hesitation since I know I have these units and one might as well use them if they're there. Even in LHM, I do use Lyn when I can. But she usually only reaches level 5 because I don't find myself in that many situations where she is useful beyond the first few chapters. And since this topic is about whether or not it's worth training the Lords for FFO and beyond, I'm basically trying to say: "no, it's not worth the hassle". Just telling the OP to use whatever unit he wants isn't very helpful since a subject like this does need to touch on the more factual things and I'm pretty sure no one would want to spend extra time grinding or finding a way to incorporate these units in to chapters without a good reason to do so. So it's not a matter of "i can use any unit I want" or "this is how people actually play the game". As then, you're stating the obvious. But in this specific case, to make someone's life easier, should they train these units or not? I believe not, because they will not be particularly amazing and would still be outclassed by other units. You could still use them if you want to, but it doesn't change the fact you're wasting time.

Edited by Jerry Kuma

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Hey thats cool my topic became a discussion out of nowhere

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17 hours ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Yes I think she's "decent"

thats it 

 

not top teir like you claim 

I recognize her flaws and that there are units who do so much better than her 

if your gonna argue that Lyn is top tier and Marcus is trash

 

personal experience means nothing 

We have the averages and HHM enemy stats right here on SF, go look them up.

A rank isn't top tier, so I didn't claim her to be so. S rank is, which only Hector qualifies for.

I recognize her flaws, but there aren't many units that are better than her.

That's not what I'm arguing however. I'm arguing that Lyn is A rank and that Marcus is B rank at best, not the same thing you are claiming I said.

I'm aware of that, I don't need personal experience to know she's good.

And by averages, Lyn has pretty good stats all around, with the exception of DEF. I already looked them up plenty of times before, that's precisely why I don't bother with Marcus, I'm not waiting that long so that he can have barely minimum stats.

Edited by DiogoJorge

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On 7/11/2018 at 9:01 AM, DiogoJorge said:

Considering that my own playstyle works well, yes, it's correctly.

Yeah, about that. There's a word used to describe people who think their playstyle are better than everyone else's, or rather the "correct" way to play, but then ending up not having a clue to what they're doing or what they're talking about. And this is in spite of the fact that there's legitimately skilled players among those getting told "your way is not the correct way" by such a person. I don't want to say what that word is, but right now, you're striking me as such a person that word describes.

23 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Then everyone can't be trusted with telling me how to play FE, I'm afraid.

Or it means that everyone else knows something about the game that you don't. Or rather, they understand a facet of the game that you don't and are inherently unwilling to understand.

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As I said before, the FE community seems to be degenerated from a effective playstyle to a efficiency playstyle that sacrifices everything else.

Except you can't really argue what's effective for the player without arguing how quick/efficient a certain strategy is. That's just not how it works. The two go that much hand-in-hand. If you're arguing in favor of a unit's or strategy's effectiveness, but are arguing against an efficient gameplay choice made by a player being effective, then all you're doing is gaslighting the people you're arguing against. And as such, if you're going to resort to such an argument, then the burden of proof falls upon you to show that you're not gaslighting people. And, honestly, none of the rest of us has gotten any ample reason to believe that you're not performing mental gymnastics and gaslighting people at this point.

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Marcus has a 30% STR growth

With a solid 15 base.

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a 25% SPD growth

With a solid 11 base.

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and a 15% DEF growth

With a 10 base.

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Hector on the other hand has a 60% STR growth,

With a 7 base.

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a 35% SPD growth 

With a poor base of 5.

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and a 50% DEF growth, 

With a base of 8.

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on top of that, he starts with only 2 less DEF points than Marcus and grows much more than Marcus does, not to mention he has promotion gains.

Which means very little in reality.

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If you honestly think that Marcus can hold up to that, you have another thing coming. Hector can use Silver Axes by that point as well. He's not having an A rank in axes unless that's the only thing he has been using.

You forget that WEXP bonuses upon killing enemies exist. And given the abundance of lance using enemies, Marcus reaching A in axes isn't far-fetched by any means.

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Also, Marcus has 15 STR and keeps that way for a while unless blessed, Hector already has 17 STR by then.

No. Marcus' Str only remains at 15 if you've sandbagged him. If not, their Str should be the same. Think about just how long it takes for Hector's and Marcus' Str stats to tie each other. If it takes Hector about 12 maps just to catch up to Marcus statistically, then what does that say about Marcus? Surely, it wouldn't mean that Marcus' bases aren't "bad", to say the least.

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Movement is pointless

On the contrary. You can never have too much movement. The same holds true for other strategy games. For example, have you even played Valkyria Chronicles? If you had, would you say that Shock troopers are better than Scouts due to their higher offensive and defensive capabilities? Even though 1, Scouts rarely have trouble killing anything, 2, the Scouts' higher movement allows for a greater contribution towards the map's tactics ranking, and 3, the tactics rankings in the VC games behave like the BEXP systems in FEs 9 & 10?

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There's no cherrypicking though. Also, it's not a single point, we are talking about STR,DEF, HP and even SPD, he has him beat in those after promotion easily.

Except, he doesn't. And that's because, even with consideration given to the existence of Arenas, and the fact that most bosses are promoted following Noble Lady of Caelin, Marcus' level will be in the double-digits when Hector promotes. Effectively making their stats sans Def and MOV identical. That's hardly "statistically beating Marcus easily after promotion."

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Tanking is the only reason why I even bother use Marcus at all

You should be using him for more than just tanking things. Just saying.

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strip him of that and I have plenty of other units that can do the movement part, so tell me, what exactly does Marcus does that my other units don't beyond chapter 20?

You really should be asking that question in reverse. What, exactly, do other units do that Marcus doesn't?

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Especially since at that point for tanking Hector already has that part covered and Kent has both the tanking and movement part covered.

Which doesn't negate Marcus' uses by any means.

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I would like to point out that he's absolutely unecessary for chapter 12 as proven by my video. He's only there to get the secret book and be there as an emergency unit just in case.

Dude. I saw your Chapter 12 video. It looked like it was your first time playing HHM. You were playing too cautiously instead of trusting your units to do their jobs. You wouldn't have to play so cautiously if you had used every unit you have at the time, including Marcus, to their fullest abilities. That's a fact.

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13 is mostly Hector's show, since some enemies are cavaliers and he destroys Pegasus for more experience and stat gains.

Except Hector wants to reach the throne ASAP. Guess whose abilities let him do just that the most. (Hint: It's Marcus.)

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So, no, he's not. Sorry to rain on your parade, but unless Marcus has 35% DEF growth and a 40% SPD growth, he will never be one of the best, let alone the best unit. I don't care if you eat them or not, If anyone says that Marcus is the best unit, I will always point out the problems with that mentality whetever they believe it or not, that's up to you.

A unit doesn't have to be Seth or FE9 Titania to be considered as the best unit in the game. Surely you realize by now that the mere fact that people nowadays consider Marcus to be FE7's best unit should suggest how long he takes to "fall behind", or how strong the average enemy in FE7 is.

Also, you never addressed this question: Under what unit judgement criteria are Lyn and Hector among FE7's best units? And please don't say "from a criteria of effectiveness". You and I both know that's not true.

Also, claiming that Lyn's "an A rank unit" is literally the same thing as claiming that she's one of the best units in the game. (She's really more of a C-B rank unit.) However, am I to assume that you finally admit that Marcus is at least good? (Even though B is too low of a ranking to give to an S rank unit.)

Edited by Just call me AL

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I honestly try to max out my lords and then I remember that now that they reached max level... Oopsie

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23 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Hey thats cool my topic became a discussion out of nowhere

Welcome to the Fire Emblem fandom.

Somehow, RD 3-6 hasn't come up yet.

Edited by Florete

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So... I'm going to talk about the real topic of this post.

No. Geitz is awesome and all but training the lords is, to be frank, a waste of time. All three Lords are footsoldier and two of them sword-locked units (Hector, on the other hand, is not that good, really. He has some good growths but his bases are somewhat lacking). If you are playing LTC or Ranked, there's no way they are going to reach level 50 without hurting your Turn Count/Ranking. But if you want to raise them, you can do it. Eliwood isn't that bad in level 20 and he can become a good unit when promoted, because he gains a horse and lances (he's able to use javelins after promotion, which is very good), Lyn can be average if she didn't get Str screwed, her Mani Kati does effective damage against cavs and, when she promotes, she gains more mov which is always nice but bows are bad, they are ranged but what's the real use of 1/2 range (without magic swords)? She can be trained to almost level 20 in LHM, though. Hector is Hector, he can be a good axe user and the Wolf Beil is awesome but he gains no movement when he promotes. While none of them will be promoted in Four Fanged Offense, forward planning can be good. Also, just because the lords are obligatory in some chapters, it does not mean they are obligatory to use.

 

If you are playing normal mode/ not caring about ranks or turns, you can arena abuse them after the Dread Isle.

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36 minutes ago, Soviet Cut said:

So... I'm going to talk about the real topic of this post.

Blasphemy!

I'd say if nothing else, you should in HHM, Geitz gets a boost there and Lloyd being the harder boss later on is more appropriate for the hardest difficulty level.

4 hours ago, gjuptonv said:

4. Hop off that high horse, you've stil dodged half of my question as you've done everytime this is asked. Explain why your playstyle raises Lyn above Marcus, don't just tell us it does. Yes we know she doubles, and that she builds supports, but you need to explain why those matter more than Marcus's superior base stats, higher movement, 1-2 range weapons from start to finish, and much greater durability. Your videos are one part of your explanation, give us the other and clearly explain your playstyle so we can stop arguing around your refusal to clarify your statements or respond to specific critiques.

I can do that. It's how good the unit's 20/20 stats are. Their combat performance is irrelevant as long as they're capable of being fed kills.

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2 hours ago, Soviet Cut said:

If you are playing LTC or Ranked, there's no way they are going to reach level 50 without hurting your Turn Count/Ranking.

I did it in both my EHM and HHM ranked runs.

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Honestly I think this all boils down to personal preference. I try to level all of the lords to level 20 as I like Geitz, he's a cool character with a pretty good bow level and I like the Fighter types. I do this as I prefer to recruit Geitz rather than Wallace.

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