A Quick Analysis of the Pacifist Queen

[Emperor Hardin]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yet even then, that doesn't mean anything, as there isn't a Holy Blood system applied here like it was in Echoes and Genealogy. Being Holy Blood doesn't give claim to the throne, or at least not to the knowledge we are aware of. Maybe it does, but based on how things are, nothing suggests it.

Did you miss Vasto and Campari? Both absolutely hated Ylisse, with Vasto calling Ylisseans cowards, and Campari mentioning the rage of Plegia. And the Drama CDs also show how there are plenty of Plegians that do hold hatred for Ylisse, but through Emmeryn's sacrifice and by some actions Chrom and his forces did in said CD, they were willing to put aside that hatred and look for sympathizers. 

Even if it's not mentioned, it's the entire basis on why Gangrel pushed that war. In fact, though you say it's abandoned, need I remind you that the entire basis on how Ylisse and Emmeryn turned out to be is because of the former Exalt. Everyone would be happier to forget the terrible king they had and believe in the new ruler that supported peace. But before that, they hated Emmeryn thinking she was just like her father. And no matter how much you try to say that he's an abandoned plot point, the fact remains that he was trying to commit genocide and nearly destroyed his own nation in the process. He forced a major factor of his economy into the war and kept trying to push forward. You think his own nation didn't try to warn him far earlier about the damages he had done? He had to have known, but he pressed on. Any halfway decent ruler would have known to pull out, but this guy pushed on and got nothing from it. Hell, even if he beat Plegia, the Grimleal had ties to Valm. So the cult would have survived and they were no closer to ending Grima. 

Gangrel confesses that he lost his way in his conversation with Emmeryn:

 

Gangrel was a pauper who only got to be King due to Validar’s help, whilst Validar was descended from the people who founded the country. Its clear Validar has a higher right to lead the country.

Drama CD is non canon and obviously irrelevant.

Its irrelevant because no one but Emmeryn ever mentions the crusade effecting their lives, not one single Plegian mentions being affected by it. The only Plegians whose backstories we get, make zero mention of the war with Ylisse and instead continue with the whole “Grima worshippers=Irredeemably Evil” thing we already know.

Neither Vasto or Campari reference the crusade at all. They are just your typical evil minor bosses.

Gangrel admitting you actively forgot his goal about uniting the continent against Valm and just decided to create a war he knew was pointless out of sheer bloodlust is worse then anything we know of Mr. nameless abandoned plot point.

I’ll say if like the backstories of Aversa, Henry, and the like had mentioned the war, you might have merit, but as it is you are just speculating on an abandoned plot line about a character who didn’t even merit a name.

Unless something new is provided, I have nothing else to say.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Emperor Hardin

[Interdimensional Observer]

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The reason I involve Emmeryn is that I feel it could be entirely possible. The original timeline had the war against Plegia last longer. If that had been the case, and Valm conquered the continent, and they entered, Ylisse wouldn't have possibly won, or even reached Valm in the first place. Then we also have some key factors, being the case of Say'ri and the Yen'fay we get in SpotPass. Yen'fay indicates that in his world, he didn't side with Walhart and Say'ri died.

 

I acknowledged this. I wasn't arguing this.

The crux of my argument was that when Valm invades and Chrom responds and goes off to fight in Valm, none of those actions would have changed if he had forgotten about Emmeryn's ideals. Would anything he would have done changed while sailing the Searoad, landing at Valm Harbour, visiting the Mila Tree, attacking Fort Steiger, baiting at the Demon's Ingle, assailing Valm Castle and then killing Walhart inside? 

My answer? No. Because Emmeryn's ideals are irrelevant to Chrom's actions already. The world Emmeryn would have wanted, yes it is a wonderful one to fight for and Chrom wants it, but all of the actions Chrom takes to attain that world in Valm, are practically devoid of her preferred methods.

[omegaxis1]

15 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Gangrel was a pauper who only got to be King due to Validar’s help, whilst Validar was descended from the people who founded the country. Its clear Validar has a higher right to lead the country.

Drama CD is non canon and obviously irrelevant.

Its irrelevant because no one but Emmeryn ever mentions the crusade effecting their lives, not one single Plegian mentions being affected by it. The only Plegians whose backstories we get, make zero mention of the war with Ylisse and instead continue with the whole “Grima worshippers=Irredeemably Evil” thing we already know.

Neither Vasto or Campari reference the crusade at all. They are just your typical evil minor bosses.

Gangrel admitting you actively forgot his goal about uniting the continent against Valm and just decided to create a war he knew was pointless out of sheer bloodlust is worse then anything we know of Mr. nameless abandoned plot point.

I’ll say if like the backstories of Aversa, Henry, and the like had mentioned the war, you might have merit, but as it is you are just speculating on an abandoned plot line about a character who didn’t even merit a name.

6

Where does it say the Drama CDs are non-canon? Volume 1 takes place between chapter 11 and 12. Volume 2 takes place between chapter 10 and 11. And volume 3 is Lucina's world right before they went back in time, complete with the same scenario of when Grima attacked Ylisstol. And in Fates, Odin and Laslow's support conversation even reference Volume 4 of the Drama CDs. So no, I would argue that you have no basis on claiming that the Drama CDs are in any way non-canon or irrelevant.

Except it's clear that the incident is something no one likes to talk about or bring about. Gangrel has to literally spell it out before Chrom confesses to Robin about the event, but it's clear that that incident is something that has lasting scars, even if no one talks about it.

Vasto and Campari both indicate in their quotes a hatred towards Ylisse and their citizens. And Henry shows that both are decent people when not in battle in his support with Ricken, and how many Plegians that died had friends and family.

Yeah, Gangrel admits that he was blinded by the circumstances. However, Gangrel attacked to unite the continent through force to fight Walhart, and the reasoning is using the hatred towards Ylisse for the crusade. 

Quote

Chrom: Oh, hi, Avatar. Just... dueling with some unpleasant thoughts... Tomorrow we march to Regna Ferox to request additional soldiers. But there's something you should know first. ...Not everything Gangrel said was a lie. The last exalt, my father, waged war on Plegia for many years. The violence... It was a brutal compaign, ending only with his death 15 years ago. Plegia rightfully remembers their suffering, but his war was no kinder to his own people. As the fighting dragged on, out army became more and more diminished. Farmers who could barely wield a pitchfork were conscripted and sent to their deaths. Soon there was no food at all, and the kingdom began to collapse. I was young, but I remember those dark times. ...I know how they affected Emmeryn.

1

This entire quote pretty much sums up how bad of a ruler Chrom's father was. He waged a crusade for many years, crippled his own military strength, and then was wrecking his own economy. It's easy to deduce that Plegia's income comes from trade with Valm. Ylisse doesn't have that, so their income would have to be from crop production, or at least play a major role in it. Famers that are forced to fight in a war to inevitably die ruined the economy and nearly caused the kingdom to collapse. The war was still not over, but the king had to die before Emmeryn can finally pull the plug.

And as we know, he was fighting for the sake of ending the Grimleal. Which was NEVER going to happen. Even if by miracle, they beat Plegia, it's easily understandable that the Grimleal would not be wiped out, precisely because we know that the Grimleal already has ties to Valm, which makes sense given the intercontinental trade with Valm. So the former Exalt was fighting for a cause that was NEVER going to work. And that is precisely why the former Exalt is one of the worst rulers ever. He fought for a "noble" cause that was going to fail if he had enough common sense. 

There's absolutely no speculation to be done on this part at all. Because we know all this to be true. 

8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I acknowledged this. I wasn't arguing this.

The crux of my argument was that when Valm invades and Chrom responds and goes off to fight in Valm, none of those actions would have changed if he had forgotten about Emmeryn's ideals. Would anything he would have done changed while sailing the Searoad, landing at Valm Harbour, visiting the Mila Tree, attacking Fort Steiger, baiting at the Demon's Ingle, assailing Valm Castle and then killing Walhart inside? 

My answer? No. Because Emmeryn's ideals are irrelevant to Chrom's actions already. The world Emmeryn would have wanted, yes it is a wonderful one to fight for and Chrom wants it, but all of the actions Chrom takes to attain that world in Valm, are practically devoid of her preferred methods.

Fair point. 

[Jotari]

Wasn't this thread meant to be about Elincia or something?

[omegaxis1]

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

Wasn't this thread meant to be about Elincia or something?

You're right, I'm sorry. 

[B.Leu]

The problem is that Elincia act, feel and develop like an actual character who go from a point A to a point B, and from a point B to a point C, with logical writing and a good development  behind, who actually aknowledge her weaknesses and understand that you can't always be a pacifist 'because violent is wrong' or some crap logic if you want to go somewhere. unlike Mikoto and Emmeryn (and Gangrel) who all go straight into the black hole of mediocrity, bad writing and incoherence. And nothingness..

Sunwoo, gotta say, I'd love to see a Elincia-like character, a queen/princess character that have to develop if she actually want to do her job correctly, or do it at all. But you know, I'd also love to see a 'goddess', who develop in the same way, there's big potential in that. One doesn't stop the other.
Though I'm kinda wary if that would happen, I don't exactly like what IS did with 'Gods' in Radiant Dawn, Awakening, and even SoV  left me somewhat miffled.

Edited June 15, 2018 by B.Leu