I know we're all excited about our lady axe lord, but...

[thecrimsonflash]

I personally would prefer the constitution system because if it is handled properly, it can actually make a difference unlike strength which becomes more and more irrelevant the further into the game you get. the ideal constitution would have a constitution and weight range of 1 - 10, along with a slim class of weapons and heavy weapons, constitution would be mostly unchangeable, apart from body rings which would be more common than previous entries (about 4 - 5 throughout the game with various methods of getting them), the weapon weights would be based on regular weapons and slim and heavy weapons would be modified slightly to have lower and higher weights respectively, with legendaries having higher weapon weights than normal due to higher damage output, the system would reduce speed and skill by 2 for every one weight remaining after weight is subtracted from con (this is to offset the lower weight/constitution stats), there would also be a bonus applied for units using weapons of significantly lower weight then their con, for every 4 remaining con after subtraction, you get spd/skl +2. all weapons would also have the same weight for simplification purposes.

the intent of using lower overall con and more weapon classes means that you need to think less about the weight but can still use the system to your advantage and it doesn't punish units for wanting to use higher power weapons.

17 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

Micaiah.

 

Light tomes are incredibly light, and the forge exists so if you need more damage a forged light tome is way cheaper than ellight, there is also thani, 45 uses, you get two throughout the game and it has a weight of one, as well as effective against cavalry and armors and ellight might.

[Nowi's Husband]

I liked the strength weight system myself, made sense for someone to have a hard time moving their heavy weapons at first but get better.  Constitution I wasn't a fan of, it just made certain units worse from start to finish.

[lbmatx]

4 minutes ago, Nowi's Husband said:

I liked the strength weight system myself, made sense for someone to have a hard time moving their heavy weapons at first but get better.  Constitution I wasn't a fan of, it just made certain units worse from start to finish.

the weight of weapons at the beginning of the game are substantially lower and all units have to deal with the con system so it shouldn't make that much of a difference. as far as making units worse, i think it just makes it more balanced as you have to be more careful with powerful weapons because if they exceed your con it is likely that you will be doubled and lose a large sum of hp. and with higher con it makes it more difficult to be rescued so it brings a large amount of balance to the game too.

Edited June 17, 2018 by lbmatx

[Water Mage]

35 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Roy doesn't have this problem early in game. He can handle Iron sword, rapier and then Killing edge just fine  (he still suck as unit but not because his poor con, though it didn't helped either)

Micaiah had problem with con alright, but Tani was OP enough to carry her through first part regardless.

 

35 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

 

Light tomes are incredibly light, and the forge exists so if you need more damage a forged light tome is way cheaper than ellight, there is also thani, 45 uses, you get two throughout the game and it has a weight of one, as well as effective against cavalry and armors and ellight might.

I wasn’t talking about con, but rather about game mechanics screwing a Lord character.

[thecrimsonflash]

11 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

 

I wasn’t talking about con, but rather about game mechanics screwing a Lord character.

I never mentioned constitution, I was just saying that there were plenty of ways to circumvent any of micaiah's strength issues.

I can't think of any mechanic in RD which actively hurt micaiah as a unit.

[Cysx]

I mean there's obviously something at play. There's no way most of her stats hang around the 6 to 8 mark, yet her speed is somehow zero. In any case, the steel axe is definitely very heavy here, at least at around 16 or so.

I liked neither of con or strength acting as con(just made good units even better and bad ones even worse, ultimately), so I'm not too thrilled. Hopefully it's something different.

[Troykv]

2 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

I never mentioned constitution, I was just saying that there were plenty of ways to circumvent any of micaiah's strength issues.

I can't think of any mechanic in RD which actively hurt micaiah as a unit.

I think RD is very bad with mages in general with everything that isn't a bandit, a Red Dragon or a Tiger/Lion Laguz having at least decent resistence (making the overall stronger physical weapons better most of the time); and most of the Mages having underwhelming Speed.

[lbmatx]

13 minutes ago, Troykv said:

I think RD is very bad with mages in general with everything that isn't a bandit, a Red Dragon or a Tiger/Lion Laguz having at least decent resistence (making the overall stronger physical weapons better most of the time); and most of the Mages having underwhelming Speed.

none of the RD mages are very good, but  ilyana is serviceable. for me she doubles everything, and does plenty of damage. i could never use the laguz because the turn based transformation annoyed me, and the laguz stones (or whatever they are called) that allow them to stay transformed annoyed me because they lowered stats. but it did seem like chars like jill, gatrie, and mia were more useful.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, lbmatx said:

the weight of weapons at the beginning of the game are substantially lower and all units have to deal with the con system so it shouldn't make that much of a difference. as far as making units worse, i think it just makes it more balanced as you have to be more careful with powerful weapons because if they exceed your con it is likely that you will be doubled and lose a large sum of hp. and with higher con it makes it more difficult to be rescued so it brings a large amount of balance to the game too.

*scoffs* If you think that bullshit on the level of Florida losing 8-9 AS from a steel lance is "balanced", I recommend you go brush up on your vocabulary... Because crap like that is the exact opposite of being balanced. And that's the problem with con as a system - it single-handedly compromises balance by making certain units better or worse.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[lbmatx]

15 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

*scoffs* If you think that bullshit on the level of Florida losing 8-9 AS from a steel lance is "balanced", I recommend you go brush up on your vocabulary... Because crap like that is the exact opposite of being balanced. And that's the problem with con as a system - it single-handedly compromises balance by making certain units better or worse.

it is a well known fact that pegasus knights are very weak and have no con. it is very difficult to train them because they get killed by everything. also, why not use fiora. florina is very difficult to grind because even among pegasus knights she has bad base stats. i used fiora when i played that game and she ended up as one of my best chars  and grinding her wasn't to difficult. also the slim lance was made for pegasus knights at low levels, it only does 1-2 damage per attack, but it never misses and you can almost always double. the fact that you were using a steel lance on florina in the first place was sheer stupidity. you should know that she doesn't have the con to use that and that she has no hp or defence. even if you looked at the detailed view of the battle it should be made obvious that she would die. i also mentioned that 

 

22 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

you have to be more careful with powerful weapons because if they exceed your con it is likely that you will be doubled and lose a large sum of hp

and in the balance aspect i already said that

 

23 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

and with higher con it makes it more difficult to be rescued so it brings a large amount of balance to the game too.

acually read what people say before you deny its values (also note fiora has higher con than florina)

[Shadow Mir]

 

22 minutes ago, lbmatx said:

It is a well known fact that pegasus knights are very weak and have no con. it is very difficult to train them because they get killed by everything. also, why not use fiora. florina is very difficult to grind because even among pegasus knights she has bad base stats. i used fiora when i played that game and she ended up as one of my best chars  and grinding her wasn't to difficult. also the slim lance was made for pegasus knights at low levels, it only does 1-2 damage per attack, but it never misses and you can almost always double. the fact that you were using a steel lance on florina in the first place was sheer stupidity. you should know that she doesn't have the con to use that and that she has no hp or defence. even if you looked at the detailed view of the battle it should be made obvious that she would die. i also mentioned that 

 

52 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

you have to be more careful with powerful weapons because if they exceed your con it is likely that you will be doubled and lose a large sum of hp

and in the balance aspect i already said that

 

52 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

and with higher con it makes it more difficult to be rescued so it brings a large amount of balance to the game too.

acually read what people say before you deny its values (also note fiora has higher con than florina)

You DO realize that's why I'm whining about it in the first place...??? Because the fact that we have units that can't even use iron without losing speed is stupidiculous. And Fiora is not much better off, but I'll get to that later.

First quote: But when the powerful weapons that some units might need to do something punish them for using them... Houston, we have all the problems.

Second quote: So the closest thing to a downside to having high con is being harder to rescue, while having low con comes with nothing but downsides... Yay?

I did. I still think it has no value whatsoever. Oh, and Fiora has better con... By a grand total of - Drum roll please... a whopping 1. *slow clap*

Edited June 17, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[X-Naut]

I don't see how Strength is a good buffer for weight compared to Constitution. Just look ta PoR and Shadow Dragon: with Strength as a buffer weight serves no purpose lategame and penalizes low-Str units in the earlygame. You'd be better off without weight entirely. Con has its problems too but it's easier to fix and fine-tune.

But I don't think it's Con, or Fates' system for that matter. It's either Strength, no buffer, or something new.

[IEatLasers]

Honestly 

 

I’m hurt that we Finally get a woman in the spotlight and she’s overshadowed by the main character as an avatar. We never got a lord! We had Lyn who got taken over by Eliwood and then hector I’m NG+, Erika who had ephraim, and Michiah who had to fight the return of Ike taking lead. 

 

I saw Edelgard and thought finally we get a lord for the girls~ 

 

nope. It’s an avatar main character and there’s 2 other lords, both men. 

 

Not like guys have Marth, Ike, Chrom, Alm (who comes out on top over Celica), Eliwood, and maybe the new main guy if he can’t change genders. 

 

Thsts whats changed my opinion. I’m so upset. 

[Shadow Mir]

48 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

I don't see how Strength is a good buffer for weight compared to Constitution. Just look ta PoR and Shadow Dragon: with Strength as a buffer weight serves no purpose lategame and penalizes low-Str units in the earlygame. You'd be better off without weight entirely. Con has its problems too but it's easier to fix and fine-tune.

But I don't think it's Con, or Fates' system for that matter. It's either Strength, no buffer, or something new.

Two words: Wishful. Thinking. This is Unintelligent Systems we are talking about after all, thus I have every reason to believe they would just screw it up again.

[eclipse]

3 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Two words: Wishful. Thinking. This is Unintelligent Systems we are talking about after all, thus I have every reason to believe they would just screw it up again.

'kay, that's nice.  Are you done being salty?

[NekoKnight]

6 hours ago, lbmatx said:

as long as there is a brave axe it should be fine. axe users have very high strength stats, so  a brave axe is ideal for them and definitely the best brave weapon. for hector at least, i found the brave axe better than Armads.

Rinkah flashbacks intensify

[The DanMan]

17 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm a little more concerned about the fact that she uses a sword. Ultimate plot weapons are usually swords so I would hate to see her axes sidelined because the game throws better swords your way.

The fact the trailer went out of the way to focus on her having axes makes me think it's going to be her primary weapon type, with swords simply as a backup-- i.e. I'm expecting a legendary axe for her.

Anyways, I'm of the persuasion that they're using the Tellius/SD style of using strength instead of constitution for it.

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by The DanMan

[lbmatx]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

 

You DO realize that's why I'm whining about it in the first place...??? Because the fact that we have units that can't even use iron without losing speed is stupidiculous. And Fiora is not much better off, but I'll get to that later.

First quote: But when the powerful weapons that some units might need to do something punish them for using them... Houston, we have all the problems.

Second quote: So the closest thing to a downside to having high con is being harder to rescue, while having low con comes with nothing but downsides... Yay?

I did. I still think it has no value whatsoever. Oh, and Fiora has better con... By a grand total of - Drum roll please... a whopping 1. *slow clap*

pegasus knights have low con to balance their end game stats. if you check their wiki pages: http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Fiora and  http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Florina then you will see that the percentage growth rates of fiora are in different categories than florina, in addition to them being a total of 10% higher. both have higher percentage growth rates than either kent http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Kent or sain  http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Sain. and both of their growth rates are well above erk http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Erk. 

you get florina at level 1 and you get fiora at level 7 which gives you plenty of levels to milk their high growth rates. it is for balance that they aren't very strong in the beginning. two more things. first, if you decide to use florina, do lyn mode first so that she can get some level ups before you start the real story. and second, if you have time read the overall section for fiora and florina, it will tell you the differences between them without biases.

and if after all this you still don't like pegasus knights then don't use them. nobody is forcing you to use florina, if you don't like how easily she dies in the earlier chapters then don't use her.

[Shadow Mir]

30 minutes ago, lbmatx said:

pegasus knights have low con to balance their end game stats. if you check their wiki pages: http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Fiora and  http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Florina then you will see that the percentage growth rates of fiora are in different categories than florina, in addition to them being a total of 10% higher. both have higher percentage growth rates than either kent http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Kent or sain  http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Sain. and both of their growth rates are well above erk http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Erk. 

you get florina at level 1 and you get fiora at level 7 which gives you plenty of levels to milk their high growth rates. it is for balance that they aren't very strong in the beginning. two more things. first, if you decide to use florina, do lyn mode first so that she can get some level ups before you start the real story. and second, if you have time read the overall section for fiora and florina, it will tell you the differences between them without biases.

and if after all this you still don't like pegasus knights then don't use them. nobody is forcing you to use florina, if you don't like how easily she dies in the earlier chapters then don't use her.

Nice assumption there. Too bad endgame stats only mean so much when they won’t be relevant for most of the game. Also, when you have units who mostly have 4 to 6 con against those who have about double that, that is a DISADVANTAGE no matter which way you slice it.

No shit Sherlock, most units you get early on won’t be very strong.

That kind of assumption is what I call a swing and a miss. I like Pegasus knights. I don’t like how the con system was nothing but a giant middle finger to them, and to female units in general.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[eclipse]

41 minutes ago, lbmatx said:

pegasus knights have low con to balance their end game stats. if you check their wiki pages: http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Fiora and  http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Florina then you will see that the percentage growth rates of fiora are in different categories than florina, in addition to them being a total of 10% higher. both have higher percentage growth rates than either kent http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Kent or sain  http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Sain. and both of their growth rates are well above erk http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Erk. 

you get florina at level 1 and you get fiora at level 7 which gives you plenty of levels to milk their high growth rates. it is for balance that they aren't very strong in the beginning. two more things. first, if you decide to use florina, do lyn mode first so that she can get some level ups before you start the real story. and second, if you have time read the overall section for fiora and florina, it will tell you the differences between them without biases.

and if after all this you still don't like pegasus knights then don't use them. nobody is forcing you to use florina, if you don't like how easily she dies in the earlier chapters then don't use her.

Just a side note - Serenes Forest's main site also has the growth rates.  Since you're on these forums and all. . .

[lbmatx]

23 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Nice assumption there. Too bad endgame stats only mean so much when they won’t be relevant for most of the game. Also, when you have units who mostly have 4 to 6 con against those who have about double that, that is a DISADVANTAGE no matter which way you slice it.

No shit Sherlock, most units you get early on won’t be very strong.

That kind of assumption is what I call a swing and a miss. I like Pegasus knights. I don’t like how the con system was nothing but a giant middle finger to them, and to female units in general.

end game stats are the most important because the last few chapters are the only hard ones and everyone (except eliwood) is already maxed at this point. before the last few chapters it is easy to use the movement abilities of pegasus knights to ensure that they don't die. if you have played any fire emblem games at all then you know that pegasus knights always have low defense and should never be put in the front lines to draw enemy attacks. the only time a pegasus knight is at a disadvantage is early game before their growths are effective. this is countered with their high movement so they can avoid sticky siduations. and maybe im different from everybody else in my strategies, but the last 5 or 6 chapters took well over half my total gameplay time. and at this point most of my units that i was planning to use for the last chapter were either max level, or getting very close.

[Shadow Mir]

39 minutes ago, lbmatx said:

end game stats are the most important because the last few chapters are the only hard ones and everyone (except eliwood) is already maxed at this point. before the last few chapters it is easy to use the movement abilities of pegasus knights to ensure that they don't die. if you have played any fire emblem games at all then you know that pegasus knights always have low defense and should never be put in the front lines to draw enemy attacks. the only time a pegasus knight is at a disadvantage is early game before their growths are effective. this is countered with their high movement so they can avoid sticky siduations. and maybe im different from everybody else in my strategies, but the last 5 or 6 chapters took well over half my total gameplay time. and at this point most of my units that i was planning to use for the last chapter were either max level, or getting very close.

That’s where you’re wrong. Ever heard of Early Game Hell, aka the tendency of the early portion of the game to be among the harder portions of the game? ...I highly doubt you have. Because I would say that is the case in some FE games at least. 

[eclipse]

And how does this current argument pertain to the topic?

[lbmatx]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That’s where you’re wrong. Ever heard of Early Game Hell, aka the tendency of the early portion of the game to be among the harder portions of the game? ...I highly doubt you have. Because I would say that is the case in some FE games at least. 

i have played blazing sword 4 times. there is only one hard map in blazing sword early game (the chapter you get erk and priscilla: false friends chapter fourteen in eliwood mode. not sure in hector mode). i have played sacred stones several times so i feel comfortable using it as an example as well. vanessa is not very good as her growths are about average and you recieve her at lvl 1 which we know makes it difficult to use her because of the grind. but tana who you get in chapter 9 at level four is a great peg knight.  but since we are talking about con dragging down peg knights ill calculate the speed of all of them on average at max level. tana's speed should be around 37.75.  vanessa's speed is 35.8. florina's speed is 29.9. fiora's speed is 29. farina's speed is 26.5. and syrene's speed is 26.4. for comparison against other unit's speed: sain's speed is 22.1. kent's is 25.1. erk's is 26. eliwood's is 23.2. lyn's is 31.2. and guy's is 36.2.

with speed that high there shouldn't be a problem with con. the following is the speed toll for using  the most common weapons for florina:

slim lance = 0
iron = -4
steel = -9
silver = -6
brave lance = -10
once promoted
slim sword = 0
iron sword = 0
steel sword = -5
silver sword = -3
brave sword = -7
slim lance = 0
iron = -3
steel = -8
silver = -5
brave lance = -9

if there is anything else you want to discuss about peg knights then message me directly via the serenes forest messenger.

Edited June 18, 2018 by lbmatx

[lbmatx]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

And how does this current argument pertain to the topic?

we were talking about the ups and downs of con and pegasus came up because they get the short end of the stick when it comes to con. particularly florina who only has four con and loses speed when using an iron lance. 

also thanks for mentioning the growth rates being on serene's forest, i had forgotten about that. @eclipse

Edited June 18, 2018 by lbmatx