I know we're all excited about our lady axe lord, but...

[Tenzen12]

To be fair, Micaiach getting out of spotlights saved story writing and IS did try give Celica equal role to Alm. That they  ended write her as total dumbass is unfortunate, but again hey they tried.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Tenzen12

[Sage of the Mist]

1 minute ago, Tenzen12 said:

To be fair, Micaiach getting out of spotlights saved story writing and IS did try give Celica equal role to Alm. That they wrote her as total dumbas is unfortunate, but again they tried.

To be honest  the whole thing about Celica and her poor decision would be at least tolerable if her actions had any semblance of meaningful effect on the overall plot. Instead what we go was a girl whose biggest achievement  is promoting Alm and using her turnwheel to open a door at the end of the game. Everything meaningful in the plot is accomplished by Alm. I mean I get it the game was written quite a while ago, but it seems odd that the writes didn't change anything in the plot to make Celica's contributions worth a damn, which is a shame because I really like her as a character (aside from her poor choices that make no sense). I truly hope this new game finally gives us a female protagonist who doesn't have to play backseat driver to the male protagonist.

[AnonymousAxolotl]

On 6/17/2018 at 6:17 AM, Regal Edelgard Axe Master said:

It COULD mean Fates's weapon system is still implemented in some way (which we haven't seen the descriptions text of the weapons yet) since Steel Axes in it grants (Follow up attack speed -3) thus causing her not to double and get doubled as a result this is a possibility.

Let's hope not, but taking into account that that weapon system existed for the sake of balancing out the lack of weapon durability, which is back, then I wouldn't believe it to be the case. 

And I hope it isn't the case. Weapon durability and effective debuffs for high tier weapons at the same time would kinda suck.

Edited June 21, 2018 by AnonymousAxolotl
Fixed a typo

[The DanMan]

2 hours ago, Tenzen12 said:

To be fair, Micaiach getting out of spotlights saved story writing and IS did try give Celica equal role to Alm. That they  ended write her as total dumbass is unfortunate, but again hey they tried.

The bigger issue is that overall she has basically zero effect on the plot, with CorAlm doing everything of note.

[IEatLasers]

On 6/21/2018 at 7:29 AM, henrymidfields said:

Not to mention, female-lord-overshadowed-by-male has become an overused story cliche in FE... And this is when real life had historic female rulers and leaders like Maria Teresa of Austria, Catherine of Russia, Joan of Arc of France, Queen Elizabeth, and Himiko of Japan (though the last one is debatable) who all carved their part of their respective national histories. Although, I don't see why the Avatar can't be both genders (Otherwise it's just PR suicide on IS's part considering Awakening/Fates!) - let's hope that would be the case. I for one would find it refreshing if the female lord's story goes full steam ahead this time!

Oh I’m sure Byleth can be female too but that doesn’t really count as a strong female lead. 

[PrincessAlyson]

On 6/21/2018 at 10:52 AM, Sage of the Mist said:

I truly hope this new game finally gives us a female protagonist who doesn't have to play backseat driver to the male protagonist.

I second this fully. I was in the camp that Elincia should have been the main protagonist of POR and parts of RD. Ike is cool and all, but I'd prefer Elincia. I'm really hoping Edelgard is not pushed aside like Lyn, Elincia or Micaiah, or made trivial like poor Celica (her choices should have impacted the story... Everything that was meaningful was done by Alm). Also hoping that Byleth can be female, but that probably is a thing. IIRC, they didn't show Female Corrin for the Fates reveal. Dunno about Robin since I didn't watch the Awakening trailer... 

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

1 hour ago, PrincessAlyson said:

I second this fully. I was in the camp that Elincia should have been the main protagonist of POR and parts of RD. Ike is cool and all, but I'd prefer Elincia. I'm really hoping Edelgard is not pushed aside like Lyn, Elincia or Micaiah, or made trivial like poor Celica (her choices should have impacted the story... Everything that was meaningful was done by Alm). Also hoping that Byleth can be female, but that probably is a thing. IIRC, they didn't show Female Corrin for the Fates reveal. Dunno about Robin since I didn't watch the Awakening trailer... 

Same thing with them too, I also agree I REALLY hope they don't ruin Edelgard....she's becoming one of my favorite FE females despite knowing little to nothing about her yet. Which I'm definitely going for first thing when the game comes out. Hope they don't pull this card seriously this is very terrible with what happen with some of the previous leads other games and irl history obviously shows very strong leading females please don't make this another similar situation.....I'm a bit optimistic.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Regal Edelgard Axe Master

[Troykv]

29 minutes ago, Regal Edelgard Axe Master said:

Same thing with them too I also agree I REALLY hope they don't ruin Edelgard....she's becoming one of my favorite FE females despite knowing little to nothing about her yet. Which I'm definitely going for first thing when the game comes out. Hope they don't pull this card seriously this is very terrible with what happen with some of the previous leads please don't make this another similar situation.....

 

1 hour ago, PrincessAlyson said:

I second this fully. I was in the camp that Elincia should have been the main protagonist of POR and parts of RD. Ike is cool and all, but I'd prefer Elincia. I'm really hoping Edelgard is not pushed aside like Lyn, Elincia or Micaiah, or made trivial like poor Celica (her choices should have impacted the story... Everything that was meaningful was done by Alm). Also hoping that Byleth can be female, but that probably is a thing. IIRC, they didn't show Female Corrin for the Fates reveal. Dunno about Robin since I didn't watch the Awakening trailer... 

 

Well... I can only see Byleth (aka: the beign that seems to be the main protagonist) being more important in the story that Edel... Because well... the other important characters doesn't seem to have that close connection with MC-sensei and the first trailer decided to focus almost exclusively in these two character story-wise (and the goddess; but she is a NPC).

 

Also; Micaiah is the most important character in RD despite what the narrative seems to say in latest part of the game with all this Ike love... At least her decisions and the other things that she do are actually meaningful for the story; that Micaiah is sometimes not treated as the proper Main Character is because of bias--.. And probably some rushed development is the reason of this bias.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Troykv

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

7 minutes ago, Troykv said:

 

 

Well... I can only see Byleth (aka: the beign that seems to be the main protagonist) being more important in the story that Edel... Because well... the other important characters doesn't seem to have that close connection with MC-sensei and the first trailer decided to focus almost exclusively in these two character story-wise (and the goddess; but she is a NPC).

  Hide contents

Also; Micaiah is the most important character in RD despite what the narrative seems to say in latest part of the game with all this Ike love... At least her decisions and the other things that she do are actually meaningful for the story; that Micaiah is sometimes not treated as the proper Main Character is because of bias.

I honestly don't mind Byleth being the Protagonist while Edelgard being in the "Azura like" role as deuteragonist" I just hope she doesn't get a good amount of moments and just "there" for the rest and your right the trailer did focus on Byleth and Edelgard the most with the goddess at least that's a good sign at least.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Regal Edelgard Axe Master

[Troykv]

6 minutes ago, Regal Edelgard Axe Master said:

I honestly don't mind Byleth being the MC while Edelgard being in the "Azura like" role as deutagonist" I just hope she doesn't get a good amount of moments and just "there" for the rest and your right the trailer did focus on Byleth and Edelgard the most at least that's a good sign at least.

It makes sense that Edelgard works like the exposition box like Azura xD.

And yeah; I hope Edelgard it's more important to the story than Azura (she is technically a very important char, but outside of using her Plot-Driver powers she doesn't exist in the normal narrative... Poor Aqua).

Edited June 26, 2018 by Troykv

[Icelerate]

On 21/06/2018 at 10:41 AM, Tenzen12 said:

To be fair, Micaiach getting out of spotlights saved story writing and IS did try give Celica equal role to Alm. That they  ended write her as total dumbass is unfortunate, but again hey they tried.

Radiant Dawn's writing was at its strongest before Micaiah lost the spotlight so not sure how that saved its story. 

[IEatLasers]

2 hours ago, PrincessAlyson said:

I second this fully. I was in the camp that Elincia should have been the main protagonist of POR and parts of RD. Ike is cool and all, but I'd prefer Elincia. I'm really hoping Edelgard is not pushed aside like Lyn, Elincia or Micaiah, or made trivial like poor Celica (her choices should have impacted the story... Everything that was meaningful was done by Alm). Also hoping that Byleth can be female, but that probably is a thing. IIRC, they didn't show Female Corrin for the Fates reveal. Dunno about Robin since I didn't watch the Awakening trailer... 

I would rather Byleth have a set personality than be an avatar but they should have just made Edelgard the main one! She could still be like Chrom, the front with avatar in back, instead of Azura, playing second fiddle 

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

1 hour ago, Troykv said:

It makes sense that Edelgard works like the exposition box like Azura xD.

And yeah; I hope Edelgard it's more important to the story than Azura (she is technically a very important char, but outside of using her Plot-Driver powers she doesn't exist in the normal narrative... Poor Aqua).

Oh I agree I definitely expect her to be much more than that.

[Tenzen12]

6 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Radiant Dawn's writing was at its strongest before Micaiah lost the spotlight so not sure how that saved its story. 

I love you sense for humor. Though it would be less funny if I had to hear it second time, so let's not do that.

[PrincessAlyson]

I wouldn't find it terrible if Byleth was the protagonist, but only as long as Edel doesn't get ignored by the plot. And yes, Azura was important but wasn't in the normal narrative much. Wish they had given her some of that. 

[NekoKnight]

18 hours ago, PrincessAlyson said:

I second this fully. I was in the camp that Elincia should have been the main protagonist of POR and parts of RD. Ike is cool and all, but I'd prefer Elincia. I'm really hoping Edelgard is not pushed aside like Lyn, Elincia or Micaiah, or made trivial like poor Celica (her choices should have impacted the story... Everything that was meaningful was done by Alm). Also hoping that Byleth can be female, but that probably is a thing. IIRC, they didn't show Female Corrin for the Fates reveal. Dunno about Robin since I didn't watch the Awakening trailer... 

Why would Elincia be a better protagonist than Ike? "Exiled noble fleeing to neighboring countries to recruit allies and retake homeland" stories are a dime a dozen in FE. I think Elincia is far more compelling for how she manages as an acting ruler in RD.

16 hours ago, Regal Edelgard Axe Master said:

I honestly don't mind Byleth being the Protagonist while Edelgard being in the "Azura like" role as deuteragonist" I just hope she doesn't get a good amount of moments and just "there" for the rest and your right the trailer did focus on Byleth and Edelgard the most with the goddess at least that's a good sign at least.

I wouldn't hope her getting an Azura like role. Azura's primary role was to be a exposition bot and didn't have a significant character arc or real agency for at least two of the three routes. Azura to Corrin was not the Hector to Eliwood.

Edited June 27, 2018 by NekoKnight

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

Why would Elincia be a better protagonist than Ike? "Exiled noble fleeing to neighboring countries to recruit allies and retake homeland" stories are a dime a dozen in FE. I think Elincia is far more compelling for how she manages as an acting ruler in RD.

I wouldn't hope her getting an Azura like role. Azura's primary role was to be a exposition bot and didn't have a significant character arc or real agency for at least two of the three routes. Azura to Corrin was not the Hector to Eliwood.

That's why I already stated she'll obviously be WAY more important than that.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Regal Edelgard Axe Master

[Dunal]

I'm not sure what people have against CON (in GBA specifically). Florina is one of the best units in FE7. While Dorcas is far from it. It was executed well from a gameplay perspective and was never unfair because IS actually balanced units around it for the most part (Someone like Isadora is a really well designed pre-promote because of her flaws, including CON). Would really like to see it return. The only flaw was that IS tended to give too much WT to a lot of the legendary weapons (or were arguably too lenient with Killers/Braves, at least with the former), but that's about it.

Providing flat SPD penalties on weapons isn't good design because it just outright punishes slower units by making them get doubled, while speed demons won't often care about it and will take advantage of the higher MT (for doubling) over slower units that will have their durability tank.

Tellius STR didn't work too well because the system was extremely punishing early on and then non-existent past that (unless you specifically design later weapons to have ridiculous WT, but FE10 only had weapons up to 20 WT... even tier 1 units could reach that).

Fates was okay though I suppose, since when it came to Steels, it only lowered your ability to double rather than increasing the risk of being doubled. Which does objectively favor slower units who wouldn't double anyway. CON is the best system from a design perspective though -- it made weapon usage really versatile based on each individual unit. Really, the only flaw was that in say FE7, enemy SPD was so low (including themselves being weighed down) that you could easily double with heavy weapons on faster units; but that was a problem with difficulty/enemy design, not CON/WT.

Now... having a growth like Thracia? Similar to Tellius it defeats the purpose in design IMO. Any scaling mechanism just makes weaker weapons more obsolete outside of gold cost. A couple of Body Rings (and promo bonuses) work well enough. The SPD stat in itself can make heavy weapons viable regardless of the flat penalty per unit. SPD growth is the CON growth to some extent, while keeping weapon consideration intact. 

Edited June 27, 2018 by Dunal

[redtutel]

12 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Azura to Corrin was not the Hector to Eliwoo

She was the Ninian to Corrin’s Eliwood. Maybe even the Robin to Corrin’s Chrom.

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, Dunal said:

I'm not sure what people have against CON (in GBA specifically). Florina is one of the best units in FE7. While Dorcas is far from it. It was executed well from a gameplay perspective and was never unfair because IS actually balanced units around it for the most part (Someone like Isadora is a really well designed pre-promote because of her flaws, including CON). Would really like to see it return. The only flaw was that IS tended to give too much WT to a lot of the legendary weapons (or were arguably too lenient with Killers/Braves, at least with the former), but that's about it.

Providing flat SPD penalties on weapons isn't good design because it just outright punishes slower units by making them get doubled, while speed demons won't often care about it and will take advantage of the higher MT (for doubling) over slower units that will have their durability tank.

Tellius STR didn't work too well because the system was extremely punishing early on and then non-existent past that (unless you specifically design later weapons to have ridiculous WT, but FE10 only had weapons up to 20 WT... even tier 1 units could reach that).

Fates was okay though I suppose, since when it came to Steels, it only lowered your ability to double rather than increasing the risk of being doubled. Which does objectively favor slower units who wouldn't double anyway. CON is the best system from a design perspective though -- it made weapon usage really versatile based on each individual unit. Really, the only flaw was that in say FE7, enemy SPD was so low (including themselves being weighed down) that you could easily double with heavy weapons on faster units; but that was a problem with difficulty/enemy design, not CON/WT.

Now... having a growth like Thracia? Similar to Tellius it defeats the purpose in design IMO. Any scaling mechanism just makes weaker weapons more obsolete outside of gold cost. A couple of Body Rings (and promo bonuses) work well enough. The SPD stat in itself can make heavy weapons viable regardless of the flat penalty per unit. SPD growth is the CON growth to some extent, while keeping weapon consideration intact. 

I vehemently disagree - there ain't a damn thing that's "fair" about units being forced to stick to iron because almost anything else weighs them down to an extent that it ain't worth using. Like the aforementioned Florina. If you think that's fair, then I don't know what to say.

I'd still say flat penalties is a billion times better than con is in spite of that.

Well, it does have its problems, sure, but at least I actually felt my units were progressing when they could use the heavier weapons with no penalty, which couldn't be said of the con system.

And once again, the only thing con was good for was dumbing down strategy. Like how enemy units routinely weighed themselves down. Of course, that works out for them because they're disposable. I see no reason to follow suit when dead units are gone forever.

[Dunal]

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I vehemently disagree - there ain't a damn thing that's "fair" about units being forced to stick to iron because almost anything else weighs them down to an extent that it ain't worth using. Like the aforementioned Florina. If you think that's fair, then I don't know what to say.

It's fair because  between her availability/class/growth she is a very competent unit (with high SPD to help offset her CON) with the downside that she needs to consider weapon usage more than others (which is a fair tradeoff). A Steel Lance is less useful on her but I don't see the inherit problem there. Assuming that she should double everything (and it's bad design if she doesn't, especially with a stronger weapon) when she does not isn't unfair. A Steel Lance is still useful in the scenario where she'd want to secure a kill on an enemy unit without taking retaliation damage (as in, a Slim/Iron isn't enough to one-shot the injured enemy, but a steel would) and it's also not imbalanced/unfair either that a Javelin would be less penalising to someone like Oswin compared to her either. 1-2 range is going to be useful no matter what. Slower enemies also exist to occasionally take advantage of stronger weapons as well; it's just not always the case (and having enemies that further influence your weapon choice certainly isn't a bad thing).

On the other hand, a flat SPD penalty is bad design because someone like Oswin or Lowen would suddenly be getting doubled by enemies when using a Steel Lance, which Florina would get penalised less to suddenly start doubling most enemies with a Steel.

All flat penalties accomplish is making high SPD units better and low SPD units worse. It puts far too much importance on the stat while becoming really unfair on units that deserve that far less (armors/fighters).

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And once again, the only thing con was good for was dumbing down strategy. Like how enemy units routinely weighed themselves down. Of course, that works out for them because they're disposable. I see no reason to follow suit when dead units are gone forever.

How is that dumbing down strategy? The fact that you actually need to consider weapon penalties separately between units? Again, Florina is still finding occasional use with a Steel Lance (either killing off enemies or doubling extremely slow enemies like Soldiers/Armors/Shaman). Would it be better strategy if she could unquestionably double everything with a Steel/Javelin? Or if Dorcas would be completely awful with a Steel Axe because he'd be weighed down because of it?

Enemy CON/WT isn't balanced perfectly but that's not inherently a flaw with CON itself either. Soldiers for example could have had a lot more CON to offset their poor SPD. Or enemy pegasus should have just had +2 base STR rather than be given steel lances (so their SPD isn't gimped). Minor tweaks like that.

Extra weapon variety with the system wouldn't have hurt either. Not that someone like Florina would need it... but perhaps a weapon between Slim and Silver lance (in terms of MT) that has low WT (but a lot more expensive/limited compared to Steel). Or a 'Pilum' that's essentially a slim version of a Javelin (less MT, more HIT, less WT). Obviously a pegasus has some of the more extreme penalties for stronger weapons (which is balanced well regardless considering their utility/availability) so a couple more options wouldn't hurt for them. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Dunal

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, Dunal said:

It's fair because  between her availability/class/growth she is a very competent unit (with high SPD to help offset her CON) with the downside that she needs to consider weapon usage more than others (which is a fair tradeoff). A Steel Lance is less useful on her but I don't see the inherit problem there. Assuming that she should double everything (and it's bad design if she doesn't, especially with a stronger weapon) when she does not isn't unfair. A Steel Lance is still useful in the scenario where she'd want to secure a kill on an enemy unit without taking retaliation damage (as in, a Slim/Iron isn't enough to one-shot the injured enemy, but a steel would) and it's also not imbalanced/unfair either that a Javelin would be less penalising to someone like Oswin compared to her either. 1-2 range is going to be useful no matter what. Slower enemies also exist to occasionally take advantage of stronger weapons as well; it's just not always the case (and having enemies that further influence your weapon choice certainly isn't a bad thing).

On the other hand, a flat SPD penalty is bad design because someone like Oswin or Lowen would suddenly be getting doubled by enemies when using a Steel Lance, which Florina would get penalised less to suddenly start doubling most enemies with a Steel.

All flat penalties accomplish is making high SPD units better and low SPD units worse. It puts far too much importance on the stat while becoming really unfair on units that deserve that far less (armors/fighters).

Says you. The issue here is that her durability is mostly dependent on her speed, and thus in case something goes wrong, she's that much more likely to eat a painful counter.

By what? Mercenaries and myrmidons that they would have good matchups against anyhow? I would only see that as a major problem if you only needed one point of speed over your foe to get a follow-up.

6 hours ago, Dunal said:

How is that dumbing down strategy? The fact that you actually need to consider weapon penalties separately between units? Again, Florina is still finding occasional use with a Steel Lance (either killing off enemies or doubling extremely slow enemies like Soldiers/Armors/Shaman). Would it be better strategy if she could unquestionably double everything with a Steel/Javelin? Or if Dorcas would be completely awful with a Steel Axe because he'd be weighed down because of it?

Enemy CON/WT isn't balanced perfectly but that's not inherently a flaw with CON itself either. Soldiers for example could have had a lot more CON to offset their poor SPD. Or enemy pegasus should have just had +2 base STR rather than be given steel lances (so their SPD isn't gimped). Minor tweaks like that.

Extra weapon variety with the system wouldn't have hurt either. Not that someone like Florina would need it... but perhaps a weapon between Slim and Silver lance (in terms of MT) that has low WT (but a lot more expensive/limited compared to Steel). Or a 'Pilum' that's essentially a slim version of a Javelin (less MT, more HIT, less WT). Obviously a pegasus has some of the more extreme penalties for stronger weapons (which is balanced well regardless considering their utility/availability) so a couple more options wouldn't hurt for them. 

Because there's no strategy or thinking involved when you run afoul of cases where "this unit is so impaired by this weapon they can't use it", which is pretty damn often in GBA for females. Duh! It's why axes and dark magic tended to suck - too heavy, too inaccurate, and tendency to weigh you down to the point where it's not worth it. Why in the name of Anankos would I have Florina use a Steel Lance when she's slowed down to almost armor-level speed???

It may not be an inherent flaw, but it's obvious something's wrong when you have a frigging armor knight being able to double regularly.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Dunal]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Says you.

??? The fact that she's a competent unit? I think you'll find that most people would agree that she's one of the best units in FE7 (same goes for any Pegasus in GBA FE really, especially the ones that join early).

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The issue here is that her durability is mostly dependent on her speed, and thus in case something goes wrong, she's that much more likely to eat a painful counter.

Okay, so a Steel Weapon is more situational than others, got it. What's the issue there? It seems that you're instigating that either:

A) Florina isn't a good unit because she gets weighed down a lot (and is a case where bad CON apparently ruins her).

B) Florina should be able to mindlessly spam Steel Weapons to double everything and maximise damage output, even early on (making Slims/Irons pointless outside of some extra HIT, keeping in mind that Steels are around the same gold cost). Same goes for Javelins. (How does this improve gameplay?)

C) That the payoff for sacrificing durability for kill securing or higher offence mid/late game (lower avoid) makes for bad design/gameplay.

D) That between promo gains, Speedwings, Body Ring, the SPD stat itself (being super high on units like Florina late game), that there still aren't enough tools to make use of heavier weaponry if you wanted them to be less situational.

I don't agree with any of those. Florina is a great unit regardless that actually makes Slim Weapons occasionally useful (despite them being a bit underpowered). And then Killer Lance / Silver Lance / Steel Sword are serviceable options when you need the higher offence anyway. And the gameplay implications of sacrificing enemy phase for an occasional strong player phase tool is perfectly fine. You can have her secure a kill with a Steel and then trade her a lighter weapon anyway, if that's really a concern. It promotes gameplay mechanics that are more interesting than just keeping a steel on her because it's stronger.

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

By what? Mercenaries and myrmidons that they would have good matchups against anyhow? I would only see that as a major problem if you only needed one point of speed over your foe to get a follow-up.

Not sure what you're quoting here. But armors/knights/dracos already have mediorce speed for the most part, so are reliant on dealing heavy damage in a single attack. But making their stronger weapons a bad option (in any matchup) to cause them to get doubled makes them even worse as units. If Oswin suddenly gets doubled early on for wanting to use a Steel Lance then do you counteract that by buffing his SPD? Or buffing his STR to use Slim/Iron while still hitting hard? Neither of these are characteristic to the archetype of an armor. CON/WT thematically (and mechanically) make sense to promote them using stronger weaponry compared to other classes.

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

"this unit is so impaired by this weapon they can't use it", which is pretty damn often in GBA for females. Duh! It's why axes and dark magic tended to suck - too heavy, too inaccurate, and tendency to weigh you down to the point where it's not worth it.

Axes are only iffy in FE6 due to bad HIT. WT has never been the issue -- Dorcas can use Steel Axes / Hammers with only 1 AS loss (0 after promotion). Most axe units have high CON (including someone like Dieck). And Harken for example have enough SPD where it rarely matters as well.

Dark magic generally have unique effects that makes them useful regardless of WT. And you're implying that if a unit doesn't double its immediately a bad option. Luna is decently strong despite its WT (although its WT could have afforded to be a bit less -- again weapon balance =/= how good/bad the CON system inherently is). Same for Nosferatu. Higher ranked tomes in general (including for Anima/Light) weigh too much granted; but that's a balancing flaw more than anything beyond FE6 (it's fine that they prevent you from doubling, but not so much so it commonly gets you doubled and/or don't have the MT to make up for high WT... same for weapons like the Sol Katti).

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Why in the name of Anankos would I have Florina use a Steel Lance when she's slowed down to almost armor-level speed???

Not really true, though? A level 13 Florina in HHM CH21 (mid game) has ~7 AS with a Steel Lance. Armors on that map have 2 AS. So even in one of the biggest cases of being weighed down in the entire game... there are cases where it's a superior weapon for a general purpose (as opposed to just kill securing an injured foe... which is always going to be useful early on since Florina doesn't want retaliation damage; I mean in general, not giving Florina a Steel Lance because it "weighs her down" is a pitfall -- there's uses for it on any map to help kill). Then past promotion Florina is doubling a good number of enemies with it as well (especially with a Body Ring or Speedwing if you really like using Steels on her). But is it really so bad that it isn't her best weapon?

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

It may not be an inherent flaw, but it's obvious something's wrong when you have a frigging armor knight being able to double regularly.

Uhh yeah... because Oswin is a problematic unit? You do realize that the dude has 5 AS at LV9... probably around 9-10 AS after promotion if you early promote him a bit. Is it really that bad that a 4/5 move unit doesn't get weighed down by a Steel Weapon? It's not like a lighter weapon is giving him SPD (compared to a Steel) like Florina.

And that's just an example of how the system is well balanced/designed. It innately makes SPD differences between unit archetypes less punishing for those with less of it (by allowing them to use stronger weaponry easier whilst creating a drawback for those with higher innate AS).

 

What I will say is that I don't think it would be out of the question to have a maximum penalty of -6 SPD or something. Or even making it -AS rather than -SPD, so that AVO doesn't drop when being weighed down. In the context to how the GBA games were designed, the way it worked was mostly fine, but refining the system overall wouldn't be a bad thing. There's room for improvement, especially when it comes to individual weapon tuning. Maybe Florina could have a CON of 5. Maybe Steel Lance could have a WT of 12. Not that she would need it, but hard focusing on a particular example isn't really discussing the mechanic at large. The purpose of CON/WT is to specifically lower of importance of innately high SPD vs. low SPD... without homoginising units by making their SPD stats all similar and having weapons be straight upgrades of eachother like FE12 or Awakening.

Fates did a fairly good job though in this regard. Negating the ability to double in some cases definitely benefited slower units. That was probably the best part of its weapon system but it was too bad that a lot of weapon archetypes (like Silvers) were pretty bad. And there was too much incentive to just get a Bronze/Iron to +2 or +3 through forging (which was a cheap way to make them flat out better than other weapons without their drawbacks).

[senior firehood]

im sure edelgard will be a very good unit! i know that for sure because 1.she is hot.2. she get all of my godess icon...so she will be unbeatble!

[Shadow Mir]

13 hours ago, Dunal said:

Not really true, though? A level 13 Florina in HHM CH21 (mid game) has ~7 AS with a Steel Lance. Armors on that map have 2 AS. So even in one of the biggest cases of being weighed down in the entire game... there are cases where it's a superior weapon for a general purpose (as opposed to just kill securing an injured foe... which is always going to be useful early on since Florina doesn't want retaliation damage; I mean in general, not giving Florina a Steel Lance because it "weighs her down" is a pitfall -- there's uses for it on any map to help kill). Then past promotion Florina is doubling a good number of enemies with it as well (especially with a Body Ring or Speedwing if you really like using Steels on her). But is it really so bad that it isn't her best weapon?

It's less that it weighs her down, and more that it weighs her down to an extent I find fucking unacceptable (9 AS loss!?!). Especially since evade is her main means of staying alive. My main gripe is that outside of very specific situations, the steel lance would be worse for her than an iron since it kills her speed, and her durability with it. And the fact that the con system takes a massive dump on female units in general, which is the main reason why I went on this tirade in the first place.

13 hours ago, Dunal said:

Not sure what you're quoting here. But armors/knights/dracos already have mediorce speed for the most part, so are reliant on dealing heavy damage in a single attack. But making their stronger weapons a bad option (in any matchup) to cause them to get doubled makes them even worse as units. If Oswin suddenly gets doubled early on for wanting to use a Steel Lance then do you counteract that by buffing his SPD? Or buffing his STR to use Slim/Iron while still hitting hard? Neither of these are characteristic to the archetype of an armor. CON/WT thematically (and mechanically) make sense to promote them using stronger weaponry compared to other classes.

You complain that if flat speed penalties were applied, that Oswin and Lowen would likely be at risk to get doubled, except I have a hard time buying into that since *gasp* the enemy is getting weighed down too. In all likelihood, about the only units that could feasibly double them would be mercs and myrms, which use the lightest weapons.

13 hours ago, Dunal said:

Axes are only iffy in FE6 due to bad HIT. WT has never been the issue -- Dorcas can use Steel Axes / Hammers with only 1 AS loss (0 after promotion). Most axe units have high CON (including someone like Dieck). And Harken for example have enough SPD where it rarely matters as well.

Dark magic generally have unique effects that makes them useful regardless of WT. And you're implying that if a unit doesn't double its immediately a bad option. Luna is decently strong despite its WT (although its WT could have afforded to be a bit less -- again weapon balance =/= how good/bad the CON system inherently is). Same for Nosferatu. Higher ranked tomes in general (including for Anima/Light) weigh too much granted; but that's a balancing flaw more than anything beyond FE6 (it's fine that they prevent you from doubling, but not so much so it commonly gets you doubled and/or don't have the MT to make up for high WT... same for weapons like the Sol Katti).

You do have a point on axes, but with regard to dark magic... The only games where dark magic is generally agreed to be good are Awakening and Sword of Seals. Let that sink in for a while. One of those was a game where weight was a non-factor, and the other was a game where tomes were generally light. Luna was amazing (albeit situational)... in FE7, that is; Sacred Stones nerfed it to near uselessness. Nosferatu is 14 weight in the aforementioned games, which is a huge red flag since dark mages aren't exactly known for being fast.

13 hours ago, Dunal said:

Uhh yeah... because Oswin is a problematic unit? You do realize that the dude has 5 AS at LV9... probably around 9-10 AS after promotion if you early promote him a bit. Is it really that bad that a 4/5 move unit doesn't get weighed down by a Steel Weapon? It's not like a lighter weapon is giving him SPD (compared to a Steel) like Florina.

And that's just an example of how the system is well balanced/designed. It innately makes SPD differences between unit archetypes less punishing for those with less of it (by allowing them to use stronger weaponry easier whilst creating a drawback for those with higher innate AS).

What I meant is that it's bad enough that enemy units in FE7 generally are weak statistically, but the fact that their weapon choices tend to lead to them being easy to double is just insult to injury (this mostly applies later on).

And I disagree for reasons already mentioned.

13 hours ago, Dunal said:

??? The fact that she's a competent unit? I think you'll find that most people would agree that she's one of the best units in FE7 (same goes for any Pegasus in GBA FE really, especially the ones that join early).

That's not what I was drawing attention to. And I don't dispute that, either.

13 hours ago, Dunal said:

Okay, so a Steel Weapon is more situational than others, got it. What's the issue there? It seems that you're instigating that either:

A) Florina isn't a good unit because she gets weighed down a lot (and is a case where bad CON apparently ruins her).

B) Florina should be able to mindlessly spam Steel Weapons to double everything and maximise damage output, even early on (making Slims/Irons pointless outside of some extra HIT, keeping in mind that Steels are around the same gold cost). Same goes for Javelins. (How does this improve gameplay?)

C) That the payoff for sacrificing durability for kill securing or higher offence mid/late game (lower avoid) makes for bad design/gameplay.

D) That between promo gains, Speedwings, Body Ring, the SPD stat itself (being super high on units like Florina late game), that there still aren't enough tools to make use of heavier weaponry if you wanted them to be less situational.

I don't agree with any of those. Florina is a great unit regardless that actually makes Slim Weapons occasionally useful (despite them being a bit underpowered). And then Killer Lance / Silver Lance / Steel Sword are serviceable options when you need the higher offence anyway. And the gameplay implications of sacrificing enemy phase for an occasional strong player phase tool is perfectly fine. You can have her secure a kill with a Steel and then trade her a lighter weapon anyway, if that's really a concern. It promotes gameplay mechanics that are more interesting than just keeping a steel on her because it's stronger.

Being situational is one thing, but there is such a thing as being too situational. And for the most part, iron is considered better than steel in GBA since the latter tends to be rather heavy and inaccurate (especially lances and axes). And sure, there are those that can get away with using steel, but those tend to be those who already hit hard. Whereas those who might need them for their damage output get punished for using them, thus being worse off than if they stuck with iron. Which is what I have a problem with - low con is nothing but a handicap, whereas on the other hand, the closest thing to a downside to having high con is that you're harder to rescue. Yay?