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Training Mafia 3.0: Advanced - GAMEOVER


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7 minutes ago, Fenrir Aesir said:

210: More of a general statement than relating this post, but he feels a too lenient towards Athena, even if he thinks Athena's town. It reminds me a lot of my first scumgame (which was also the first game I played on a forum and my partner got lynched Day 1 and it was this whole THING but anyway) where I made the mistake of, to paraphrase the person who caught it, "hardly considering people I'd listed as townreads." There's the thing mentioned in 77, and then here he doesn't take any issue with Athena's misinterpretation of his comment re: Fable. Obviously he doesn't have to flip his opinion 100%, but he kind of just takes it as it is without any questions. The closest he comes to hesitation on Athena is, "And yes, I read his response of "Joking". But... isn't that a pretty easy answer?" But he doesn't have a problem with Athena using this "easy answer" and instead continues going after Xnad for not questioning it. His interactions thus far have also been limited primarily to Xnad, and he doesn't seem concerned with the fact that there's pretty consistent suspicion on Athena.

Mhm. This is pretty similar to my early thoughts. I remember tonereading him town, but getting the idea he could be trying to softpocket me? I didn't mention it since I thought I was just being paranoid, but there was also stuff like "Athena trying to get interaction going"/"walked away with a town read" being reiterated. I appreciated someone recognizing my efforts as opposed to scumreading me for it, but at the same time it didn't really feel like super-relevant to the case he was discussing there?

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But at the same time, he's played in all three games I've played before (2 scum, 1 town) and my start was way more in line with my towngame than my scumgames so I could see him instantly arriving at a townread

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Makaze-Part I of ??


I generally like what I've seen from Makaze so far; I can remember several instances of his taking strong stances and trying to make others do the same.


119: Remember how I said I disagreed with Fable's assertion that Makaze wasn't concerned with figuring out alignments? This is the first post to be an example with his asking Mack what his goal is re: questioning Evan. I'm not going to reference every single post where Makaze has something to this effect of figuring out alignments, but this is the first example.


120: First example of trying to make people take stances/give opinions.


141: Going to do some tracking of his interaction with Fable. Starts out here as trying to get an idea of Fable's opinions.


151: Makaze clarifying Rad's question after calling me town is also a good look as it indicates he's looking at everything and not just 100% dismissing those he townreads from suspicion. Considered the chances of this being scum looking for an opening to push and I think if that were the case he wouldn't have mentioned the townread on me in the first place, as that would've been a prime chance for scum!Makaze to join the building pressure.


153/155/158: Have me somewhat like :thinking: re: Fable interactions; I get the gutread being strong but you seem confident enough in it here that whatever content Fable may put forth later wouldn't move you.


189: Goes more in-depth with the Fable read. @Makaze could you go more in-depth with the difference between his behavior here and in IDNSFMM5? I went back to read it myself and didn't notice any overwhelming differences in his tone that I could attribute to something aside from his frustration in this thread (something I find NAI).


213: To those of y'all who are familiar with Makaze's gameplay, is this sort of assertiveness characteristic of his playstyle? Very few seem to have much issue with it so I assume it is, but it's more forceful than what I'm used to seeing in general. Also a question Makaze himself could answer, I guess.


240: Continuing the Fable/Makaze interaction one thing I'm wanting to see from Makaze is something along the lines of going back and making an effort to answer to what Fable did ask instead of just "those weren't specific." I do distinctly recall something like this eventually happening.


260: Is the "something like this."


268: Is another :thinking: moment because of the "Why so defensive, why so angry?" bit. Do you think this defensiveness/anger is scummy/what are the chances of it being simple frustration?

My computer needs to charge, so I'm going to do that and maybe sleep for like 30 minutes(?) before continuing.

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##Vote @Zeonth

Upon reread I am very unimpressed with his wallposts. There's a lot of surface-level questions and a large amount of factually correct, but not actually relevant statements. I see very little questions aimed at determining alignments or focused on gamesolving. Additionally, I don't think he's received any heat at all for flaking/not voting, which would be very easy for scum to do.

Like I said earlier, I don't think scum influence was necessary on day 1, as there was no focus. With that in mind, him not giving any reads/opinions/votes looks pretty bad. Today's post where he's responding signifies he's caught up, yet he doesn't give thoughts, not even a one-liner on how he feels about the flips, which is either really lazy or pretty scummy and again I'm surprised no one else commented on this.

Feeling better about this than about Bart, who's almost a collective scumread at this point. (Still my second choice)

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Also interesting, neither of yesterday's lynch candidates, me and satsuma, are really mentioned in his wallposts. He's asking satsuma about the wagon on him once and with me he asks about why I interacted with mackc over evan, but that's pretty much it.

For someone posting during the last hour before phase end they have very little interest in the impending lynch.

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I agree with a lot of that and it's why I wanted thoughts on him because his posts felt like thread summaries which I don't get anything out of. And he never placed a real vote either while meanwhile he's still making the the wall posts 12 minutes to EoD while seemingly be oblivious the day is about to end and he hasn't made any conclusions yet. Like you can make walls all you like but the only thing I really care about are conclusions which is why he's completely null to me because he has none. 

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3 minutes ago, Fable said:

I agree with a lot of that and it's why I wanted thoughts on him because his posts felt like thread summaries which I don't get anything out of. And he never placed a real vote either while meanwhile he's still making the the wall posts 12 minutes to EoD while seemingly be oblivious the day is about to end and he hasn't made any conclusions yet. Like you can make walls all you like but the only thing I really care about are conclusions which is why he's completely null to me because he has none. 

I don't think it's null here though. You used the term shruglynching, which was pretty accurate, and in this case I feel scum would like to stay off-wagon and let town eat themselves. Is not giving conclusions then not just null but actually scummy?

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8 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

I don't think it's null here though. You used the term shruglynching, which was pretty accurate, and in this case I feel scum would like to stay off-wagon and let town eat themselves. Is not giving conclusions then not just null but actually scummy?

Maybe? He's very detached so it's hard to make any conclusions but I could certainly see it.

I think seeing a reads list and actual opinions about the game state would help a lot because if he continues to be a bystander then that would be wolfy. His and Evan's off wagon votes look the worst to me which is why I want stuff from them. 

Looking back I don't see Mak/Evan as w/w because the way Evan entered the thread felt very agenda-y especially the way he voted me with "Hey Mak you wanna vote Fable we can totally do that" felt kinda not w/w and more pocket-y than anything else. Which if we live in that world I don't know if that should make me more or less frustrated with how Mak has handled this. 

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3 hours ago, athena_57 said:

Mackc, could you elaborate on the evolution of your thoughts on satsuma for me? You voted for pressure I think, what caused you to stay?

Bart had been townreading me for most of the game, so it would be expected of him to want to lynch satsuma over me. I feel both town and scum him would consolidate from fable to satsuma at some point.

There really wasn't any evolution, I was being very lazy and only reading the game and not doing analysis of my own, but I thought what Junk brought up against him was a big thing so I voted him and I stayed their because I didn't see any problems with other players that I thought was worse. 

Curious why you think scum bart would consolidate on fable then Satsuma, when he could safely sat on his Xand tunnel and not looked suspicious when Satsuma flipped town.  

2 hours ago, Fenrir Aesir said:

Mackc2

Discovered the existence of post numbers (!) while reading his ISO.

130/135: This is a combination I dislike. Mack's initially like "I don't have anything strong enough to claim anyone as town or scum" but when pressured further by Makaze he moves his vote to me. I could see a world in which town!Mack legitimatately didn't have any strong opinions one way or the other, but he identifies my not referencing Athena's vote as "something [he] would consider scum indicative," a comment that to me feels like he's Rad's case as if he was having the same thought.

251: At the time he mentioned this the only read he'd mentioned in thread was the one on me. I guess in this game it's possible he'd given other thoughts with his mentor, though.

270: There's a flip here from scumreading me and presumably townreading Athena (if he thought I was misrepresenting Athena) to the opposite here. Making a note as I read through the ISO so see how his opinion on Athena develops. @Mackc2 what were some examples of my posts that gave you a townlean?

274: I'm noticing a trend of small things that ping me about Mack. The way he suddenly jumps on this when he'd been beforehand looking at Athena/me feels opportunistic. We didn't get that "gathered evidence" about Athena before EoD1, and by day 2 Athena's Mack's top townlean. Athena being a townlean for Mack is a good look imo b/c I think scum Mack would see Athena as a potential mislynch (the obvious exception being if they're partnered). I wouldn't mind seeing Mack's thought process from gut scumlean to townlean here though.

277: Just something I couldn't let go of; I think the "I talked to my mentor about this and he said this" comment would be difficult to fake were Mack scum.

519: Would appreciate some more opinions from people on this post; I'm wondering why you wouldn't bring these things up in real time. The whole "posting for the sake of posting" thing, for example, was brought up pretty early Day 1.

527: Wouldn't mind your doing this analysis at some point, you had another comment earlier that was a passing "Fenrir's posts seem town" and I want to know how you've developed your own opinion.

534: The analysis of Bart not being scum unless Athena also is is another "I think this would be a difficult process to fake as scum" deal. Final verdict is that I think Mack's town who's discussing things with his mentor and as a result the full thought process isn't here in-thread (as opposed to being scum making leaps to avoid explaining things). I want to see some of his thought processes as mentioned above.

I was going to find the specific posts but circumstances have ruined my mood so I will give you the reasons instead basically it seemed as if you where analysing both the townreads and the scumreads of a player to form an opinion on their alignment rather than forming an opinion on why they are scum, at least thats my current reason, I have no clue what my old reason was. My change in feelings about athena was I only really scimread them when I stated I had a gut scum vibe and probably miscontributed actions to them. I gave them a proper ISO last night with the intent of coming to a conclusion and concluded town based on similar reasons I am townreading you. Generally if it seems like my opinions today contradict day one its because I basically scrapped my day 1 opinions because I know they weren't built on anything other than scimreads and gut feelings. 
I was also going to ISO Makaze and Zeo tonight but agains life has ruined my mood so I won't. Also Fenrir I might ISO you later but your recent stuff has made me fairly confident that I am right in thinking you are town so it might be a waste of time. 

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2 minutes ago, Fable said:

Maybe? He's very detached so it's hard to make any conclusions but I could certainly see it.

I think seeing a reads list and actual opinions about the game state would help a lot because if he continues to be a bystander then that would be wolfy. His and Evan's off wagon votes look the worst to me which is why I want stuff from them. 

Looking back I don't see Mak/Evan as w/w because the way Evan entered the thread felt very agenda-y especially the way he voted me with "Hey Mak you wanna vote Fable we can totally do that" felt kinda not w/w and more pocket-y than anything else. Which if we live in that world I don't know if that should make me more or less frustrated with how Mak has handled this. 

I'll take another (or rather, my first real) look at Evan probably, I'll keep your pocket-comment in mind.

I honestly don't see much difference between how Mak's being here compared to when he was thunderdoming Omega in IDNSFMM5, which is why I have him at null. Do you think he's acting differently here? I don't really remember you talking about this, sorry if you did.

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2 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

There really wasn't any evolution, I was being very lazy and only reading the game and not doing analysis of my own, but I thought what Junk brought up against him was a big thing so I voted him and I stayed their because I didn't see any problems with other players that I thought was worse. 

Curious why you think scum bart would consolidate on fable then Satsuma, when he could safely sat on his Xand tunnel and not looked suspicious when Satsuma flipped town.  

I think he moves to fable first because it's an easy vote and because he doesn't want to be part of the core of the satsuma wagon. I think he moves to Satsuma later because that's what is expected of town!him. It's a consolidation vote, so he won't get much flak for it.

As for stopping the nadroj tunnel, maybe he feels he's losing the argument or at least running out of bullets, or perhaps feels more and more people townread nadroj and is afraid of looking bad. I can see scum!him leaving the tunnel there.

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4 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

I'll take another (or rather, my first real) look at Evan probably, I'll keep your pocket-comment in mind.

I honestly don't see much difference between how Mak's being here compared to when he was thunderdoming Omega in IDNSFMM5, which is why I have him at null. Do you think he's acting differently here? I don't really remember you talking about this, sorry if you did.

I hate how he seemingly randomly picked me out of a hat to RVS and used faulty logic to comf bias into that ever since to the point of him just admitting he wasn't evaluating me and had just decided it was correct at one point, I don't care who you are that's just not a villagery mindset to have. That being said the omega tunnel has been at the back of my mind and it is probably time I go back and look at how that happened exactly because it's not impossible that this is just that (which I understand omega that game so much better now if that's the case).  

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4 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

I think he moves to fable first because it's an easy vote and because he doesn't want to be part of the core of the satsuma wagon. I think he moves to Satsuma later because that's what is expected of town!him. It's a consolidation vote, so he won't get much flak for it.

As for stopping the nadroj tunnel, maybe he feels he's losing the argument or at least running out of bullets, or perhaps feels more and more people townread nadroj and is afraid of looking bad. I can see scum!him leaving the tunnel there.

Yeah thats a good point, I suppose I can see that, maybe I am overthinking things but I might also compare Barts play to his play in earlier games if I have time, he has a tendency to be mislynched so I am worried that something about his play is always scummy and he will flip town. If any town investigative are around he might be a good target if he isn't lynched 

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11 minutes ago, Fable said:

I hate how he seemingly randomly picked me out of a hat to RVS and used faulty logic to comf bias into that ever since to the point of him just admitting he wasn't evaluating me and had just decided it was correct at one point, I don't care who you are that's just not a villagery mindset to have. That being said the omega tunnel has been at the back of my mind and it is probably time I go back and look at how that happened exactly because it's not impossible that this is just that (which I understand omega that game so much better now if that's the case).  

Oh man, this reminds me of that "This is hell" rant/post of Omega

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33 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

@Makaze

I remember you calling Zeo's wallposts fantastic, do you still stand by that opinion?

Yes. Was the into one actually.

I'd rather he post in real time now.

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3 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Yes. Was the into one actually.

I'd rather he post in real time now.

What questions/observations were so good in your opinion? You said you liked the independent thoughts iirc, but like, almost everyone has those.

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