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So 8-4 isn't localizing Three Houses


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5 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

While the handling of Fates was sometimes inelegant, it can't be ignored just how problematic the source material was. Wedding and bedding children is...frowned upon in the west, so they had to awkwardly write off Elise and Midori as "technical adults" and M!Kanna got his romance supports rewritten because he's like 10 years old. A bait-and-switch lesbian would not go over well in the west, so Soleil was written into a lesbian leaning bisexual, even though she isn't. Xander was written to be more heroic than he really was because cowardice and blind obedience are not seen positively (which ended up backfiring because his actions don't change, making him a hypocrite). Swimsuits, hot springs and skinship all got neutered because the metric fuckton of fanservice that is par for the course for Japanese media is not what the west is used to (broad strokes, but you get the point).

If I were Treehouse, you would be hearing groans of increasing discomfort from me being asked to make Fates presentable.

Out of those, only the age change related-ones don't bother me as that's usually understandable and doesn't really affect the game. I disagree with Soleil's changes, since in my opinion the people who found that "problematic" just needed to suck it up. Was it weird? Sure, but it is what it is and should stay that way as the creators intended. Swimsuits and skinship should have stayed just because that's how the game was as well. I even found it a bit weird of a feature myself, but I don't want things cut from my games. If it was something really egregious that would bump the game over a T rating in the West or such, I could understand, but that really wasn't the case here. I just get the impression Treehouse went "ew" and/or thought some Western fans wouldn't like it, so they left us with a missing piece of the game compared to the Japanese version.

And it's not like those were the only changes. Stuff like Effie's personality rework was just plain unnecessary. Same with some of the altered supports. Instances of dialog rewritten like "Rawr is dragon for I love you!" that are completely off where the translators just decided to make up their own stuff. Changes to make a smooth localization are fine, but I don't support rewrites without a very good purpose. it's very true Fates has a lot of bad writing to begin with, but I still I want to see what the creator's original intention was, not what the localization team personally thought would be a funny line or an "improvement." That Beruka/Saizo support alone makes me wince at Treehouse coming back for another game.

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8 hours ago, Soleater said:

I will admit that they did do some good (like changing Leo's line adressing Elise's age so that she was actually an adult...otherwise it was really weird), but I'm still very worried overall.

Eh, I always thought that scene was really awkward and weird. Its so obvious that Leo stopped talking to Elise and was instead directly addressing the player by saying ''Its okay, you can go bang this loli because she's technically an adult''. Leo himself being an adult is already questionable but expecting Elise to be an adult despite everything about her is a little absurd. I recall Leo's statement leading to a lot of mocking reaction from players.

I get why they did it because it really is weird  that you can marry and have a kid with Elise but it still came off incredibly forced and awkward. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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50 minutes ago, Alkaid said:

And it's not like those were the only changes. Stuff like Effie's personality rework was just plain unnecessary. Same with some of the altered supports. Instances of dialog rewritten like "Rawr is dragon for I love you!" that are completely off where the translators just decided to make up their own stuff. Changes to make a smooth localization are fine, but I don't support rewrites without a very good purpose. it's very true Fates has a lot of bad writing to begin with, but I still I want to see what the creator's original intention was, not what the localization team personally thought would be a funny line or an "improvement." That Beruka/Saizo support alone makes me wince at Treehouse coming back for another game.

These are all fair points. I generally agree think localizations should be to smooth over direct translations that don't work or rework jokes/cultural references into something more understandable in the west (the Japanese title for Three Houses is one such example of something that will be lost on many westerners). 

11 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Eh, I always thought that scene was really awkward and weird. Its so obvious that Leo stopped talking to Elise and was instead directly addressing the player by saying ''Its okay, you can go bang this loli because she's technically an adult''. Leo himself being an adult is already questionable but expecting Elise to be an adult despite everything about her is a little absurd. I recall Leo's statement leading to a lot of mocking reaction from players.

I get why they did it because it really is weird  that you can marry and have a kid with Elise but it still came off incredibly forced and awkward. 

That's all it is really, a cynical disclaimer saying "Yeah, she's under-aged. We know it, you know it, but we can't be seen endorsing under-aged romance so just pretend she's legal, okay? We didn't write this shit."  Personally, I think it would be better to just not bring it up and hope people forget those characters are breeding options. The "technical adult" line was tantamount to someone shouting "I AM NOT SUSPICIOUS". A bit counter-intuitive.

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3 hours ago, Alkaid said:

Effie's personality rework was just plain unnecessary.

That's a gross overstatement-- it was exclusively limited to her voicelines; her supports and dialogue are almost entirely untouched. It's a lesser example of what happened to Gregor, who was rather generic in the Japanese version only to end up sounding like a smarter version of the Heavy from TF2 in the localization.

 

 

Edited by The DanMan
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53 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

That's all it is really, a cynical disclaimer saying "Yeah, she's under-aged. We know it, you know it, but we can't be seen endorsing under-aged romance so just pretend she's legal, okay? We didn't write this shit."  Personally, I think it would be better to just not bring it up and hope people forget those characters are breeding options. The "technical adult" line was tantamount to someone shouting "I AM NOT SUSPICIOUS". A bit counter-intuitive.

Its another reason the deeprealms were a terrible idea. Lissa isn't all that older than Elise and most of her possible suitors are a lot older than she is. The difference is that the time traveling makes it likely the younger characters were given the chance to grow up, Cordelia even says she will wait until Ricken comes of age. There's no time travel in Fates which means that if you paired Arthur with Elise it means Arthur didn't wait until Elise got older and that he should be going to jail. 

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32 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

That's a gross overstatement-- it was exclusively limited to her voicelines; her supports and dialogue are almost entirely untouched. It's a lesser example of what happened to Gregor, who was rather generic in the Japanese version only to end up soundin like a smarter version of the Heavy from TF2 in the localization.

If you want to swing to their defense over it be my guest, but their bastardization of her character was terrible from the voice direction alone. She got flipped from cute gentle giant to muscled meathead. If you're going to rag on Gregor, I don't see how Effie's change is any less bad. Just agree they both are then?

While I know it won't happen, I wish we could get a localization team like XSeed instead for future games. From my experience with their stuff, they definitely try to remain very faithful to the original material while keeping a smooth localization. Most changes have been understandable for stuff to make sense for Westerners, and I haven't seen anything like the rewrites or liberties taken by the Treehouse team with their work.

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31 minutes ago, Alkaid said:

If you want to swing to their defense over it be my guest, but their bastardization of her character was terrible from the voice direction alone. She got flipped from cute gentle giant to muscled meathead. If you're going to rag on Gregor, I don't see how Effie's change is any less bad. Just agree they both are then?

While I know it won't happen, I wish we could get a localization team like XSeed instead for future games. From my experience with their stuff, they definitely try to remain very faithful to the original material while keeping a smooth localization. Most changes have been understandable for stuff to make sense for Westerners, and I haven't seen anything like the rewrites or liberties taken by the Treehouse team with their work.

Because Gregor extended to every bit of his dialogue (with a good ol' Incredible Hulk reference stuck in as a crit qoute); Effie remains solely confined to her voicelines. You labelled it a "personality rework" when it's a partial one at best and pales in comparision to examples from Awakening.

And really: neither of them really bother me. What bothers me is the overall hypocrisy and selectiveness. People come out in droves to defend Henry recieving a total rewrite, yet as soon as Effie or Hisame get a few different voicelines they start crying foul and labelling them "bastardizations". 

X-seed could potentially mean no JP audio, which would have a whole other crowd out in droves to complain.

I need to learn to stay away from these conversations in the first place.

 

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1 hour ago, The DanMan said:

Because Gregor extended to every bit of his dialogue (with a good ol' Incredible Hulk reference stuck in as a crit qoute); Effie remains solely confined to her voicelines. You labelled it a "personality rework" when it's a partial one at best and pales in comparision to examples from Awakening.

And really: neither of them really bother me. What bothers me is the overall hypocrisy and selectiveness. People come out in droves to defend Henry recieving a total rewrite, yet as soon as Effie or Hisame get a few different voicelines they start crying foul and labelling them "bastardizations". 

X-seed could potentially mean no JP audio, which would have a whole other crowd out in droves to complain.

I need to learn to stay away from these conversations in the first place.

 

Am I those people? Pretty sure I only ever mentioned Effie, and I've never dismissed the cases of Henry and Gregor in the localization either, as I wasn't talking about them, I was talking about Fates. You're just lumping me in with unconnected people. I was using Effie as just as one of the points on the laundry list of changes from the Treehouse work on Fates, and why I think it's not a good localization job as a result. And on the whole, I do still feel Fates got a worse localization than Awakening, thus I don't look forward to if Treehouse does the upcoming game as well.

And I'm going to reprise that claim about her, as I went and looked up some dialogue to compare for Effie, as I couldn't say off the top of my head if it was or wasn't the case. She does indeed have notable changes to her localized personality in the dialogue too. (I also still think it's silly you'd separate VA/my room lines so much in the first place, as if those shouldn't count) I won't drag it out to not go too off topic, but here's one example:

Spoiler

WXOQgF2.png2aZM4Du.png

She's much more soft-spoken in the Japanese version, fitting with her VA work and the whole package as she's meant to be a gentle giant type. In the localization, they emphasize her strength and basically cut out the original soft-spoken quality of her, matching her closer to the way they went with her VA work.

This particular source also points out some other issues and changes as well: https://imgur.com/a/X2w49

It's got a rather extensive number of comparisons for various characters showing a multitude of cut or altered lines, often lowering the quality of the localized dialogue compared to the original work.

Edited by Alkaid
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1 hour ago, Alkaid said:

Am I those people? Pretty sure I only ever mentioned Effie, and I've never dismissed the cases of Henry and Gregor in the localization either, as I wasn't talking about them, I was talking about Fates. You're just lumping me in with unconnected people. I was using Effie as just as one of the points on the laundry list of changes from the Treehouse work on Fates, and why I think it's not a good localization job as a result. And on the whole, I do still feel Fates got a worse localization than Awakening, thus I don't look forward to if Treehouse does the upcoming game as well.

And I'm going to reprise that claim about her, as I went and looked up some dialogue to compare for Effie, as I couldn't say off the top of my head if it was or wasn't the case. She does indeed have notable changes to her localized personality in the dialogue too. (I also still think it's silly you'd separate VA/my room lines so much in the first place, as if those shouldn't count) I won't drag it out to not go too off topic, but here's one example:

  Reveal hidden contents

WXOQgF2.png2aZM4Du.png

She's much more soft-spoken in the Japanese version, fitting with her VA work and the whole package as she's meant to be a gentle giant type. In the localization, they emphasize her strength and basically cut out the original soft-spoken quality of her, matching her closer to the way they went with her VA work.

This particular source also points out some other issues and changes as well: https://imgur.com/a/X2w49

It's got a rather extensive number of comparisons for various characters showing a multitude of cut or altered lines, often lowering the quality of the localized dialogue compared to the original work.

Tagged due to length:

 It's more frustration in general with this topic; Henry was used as a broader example.

...There's one or two off-handed references to feats of strength, but overall it's pretty similar. 
I'm still pissed that they used a name meant to call back to a project asking for multiple games to be localized for their obsessive bitching fest. And of course they make copious use of ellipses, leave honorifics intact, and treat the localized names as cancer; they're running super rough and literal translations. I'd honestly like to see someone whose actual job is localization talk about this-- IMO, it's quite telling that you had fan translators dmeanding the game be boycotted over this stuff whereas the professional translators were the ones criticizing Persona 5 while remaining more chill about it.

And in general, of course they're going to try to avoid having family get brought up in supports that turn romantic and thus will completely undermine it all. Stuff like Ryoma and Shiro's paralogue potentially wouldn't have flown with him hitting his own son. Soleil already proved super controversial pre-release and is based on a completely foreign concept-- of course they were going to change her and have her lean bisexual. And of course having Kanna, obviously a child, get explicitly romantically involved wasn't really going to fly if it caught fire. Seriously, do you think 8-4 wouldn't have done any of those alterations? And the feature/item removal was almost certainly mandated from Nintendo themselves, meaning it would've been the same regardless if it was localized internally or externally. A lot of that was directly due to controversial aspects of the game-- with the different direction, my gut is telling me 3H won't have as much stuff like that

I'm not saying Fates' localization is flawless, but it's absolutely nothing new; Awakening had a ton of big and small changes as well. I can't present you a compiled nitpick library of them all because they weren't sensationalized and I've only heard/picked up on them over time, but I can point you to stuff like 8-4's massive mishandling of the first Gunvolt game. To me, 8-4 and NOA are roughly the same thing and produce roughly the same result; I'd gladly take someone "better", but it's not really going to bother me and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. It's not like Radiant Dawn, where they botched the difficulty naming and screwed up save transfers

Really though, this is a topic I shouldn't have gotten involved in because I knew exactly the way things would end up going and had already said in the past I was going to try and stay away from the discussion. Som I'm just going to do what I should've done after my first post in this topic and leave it at that.

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With the likeliness of a new avatar character, the whole "interact with other characters to build relationships" stuff and now this....I'm far less hyped for fe 3 houses than before. While fates was a good game, I don't consider it to be anywhere close to tellius and echoes for me, just because I found the story and world building extremely poor in comparison.

Sure it may turn out differently, but I'm gonna expect the worst for now and hopefully be pleasantly surprised, rather than potentially get hyped for a "tellius 3/echoes 2" type game...only to find more memes and bad story writing.

Meh, I'm gonna be playing smash ultimate because of Ridley, for that general time period anyways, and I've already spent over 40 hours in xenoblade 2 so I might as well continue that and forget about this game. And I'll probably even enjoy this game even if it turns out to be another fates. It's just it could be sooo much more if that's what happens in the end....

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4 hours ago, The DanMan said:

...There's one or two off-handed references to feats of strength, but overall it's pretty similar. 

You said "solely confined to voice lines", and I showed that's not the case. It's more that just the extra muscle references, as the way she talks shifts as well, since being soft-spoken and of fewer words was her thing in Japanese, and that was clearly dropped for the dialogue to better work with their new musclehead-focused personality for her. The VA work is much more extreme than the dialogue changes, but put them together and you see it wasn't merely a voice change.

Obviously I don't agree with the boycott agenda this old image collection had, as I bought the game after all, but it's still useful for a few quick examples. We can't say if 8-4 would have changed stuff like the Soleil lines, but the problems extend well past the controversial supports with her, Kana, or the skinship stuff. The Beruka/Saizo thing alone should show their low level of commitment to an otherwise close translation. I agree that my gut also says 3H may not have as much stuff Treehouse would find issue with, but I'm still wary of them after Fates.

I'm really not trying to defend 8-4, but I still find Fates to have gotten the worst of the recent FE localizations.  As you noticed, I would pick a group that's not either of them if given the choice. I'm not losing any sleep either, and I still got all the games, but I'd still like to get the best game I can, which in terms of localization I've already posted my criteria for previously.

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Personally, the more controversial parts of the localisation from Treehouse didn't actually effect my enjoyment (or lack thereof) of Fates, it was mostly down to the terrible voice acting, and the crappily-written story, and that is down to the writers, not the localisation team. 

 

Point is, while I loved 8-4's take on SoV, I still am not too worried about them not localising TH.

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Hopefully Nintendo of America (Treehouse) will learn from the mistakes of Fates. The fact a game like xenoblade chronicles 2 was able to be released makes me hopeful that there will be minimal interference on their part since more mature games like wolfenstein, skyrim, eri kitami, etc... have been released or will be releasing on their store with no Nintendo interference. Perhaps the switch really is trying to cater to all ages and not try and make all of their games accessible to everyone. Hell if the game is released world-wide this massive differentiation between scripts will hopefully completely be non-existent as they could easily just make the game for the world rather than one country. This is Treehouse's last chance with me and if they mess it up I'll just never buy another treehouse worked on product again. Assuming of course treehouse is who is working on it...

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Imma just copy-paste what I said on the main thread here real quick:

Quote

Ha, I feel like I'm the only one whose totally indifferent to the idea of Treehouse being the localizer! Sure, it wasn't the best, but I still think that the entire localization fiasco regarding Fates was completely overblown and the only really egregious thing was the deletion of the Saizo x Beruka C-rank, but hey that's just me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Even then, I highly doubt NoA and Treehouse are stupid and deaf to the community as a whole. They're probably aware of the Western fanbase's response to Fates's controversial localization so the possibility of receiving another localization on par with Fates is unlikely, especially if IS isn't stupid and handles Three Houses with more tact.

Also, there's always the possibility that Treehouse isn't even localizing FETH, but another studio entirely. Until any confirmation is put out there, everything is just speculation.

Also I have another point to add - isn't it Treehouse that localized Heroes? If so, then honestly I think people need to calm down a little more about the possibility of Treehouse being the localizer. The VA in Fates was, admittedly, very spotty at times, but the VA in Heroes has been great overall, especially recently. Even more "controversial topics" in previous games that so many people thought would be censored such as the child hunts and plot-important incest in FE4 were all retained and not even danced around. Ishtar literally states, "Sacrifice children to that dark god? I cannot do it," in one of her voice lines.

Anyone that's losing their minds over this really needs to take a step back and breathe a little imho.

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18 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

While the handling of Fates was sometimes inelegant, it can't be ignored just how problematic the source material was. Wedding and bedding children is...frowned upon in the west, so they had to awkwardly write off Elise and Midori as "technical adults" and M!Kanna got his romance supports rewritten because he's like 10 years old. A bait-and-switch lesbian would not go over well in the west, so Soleil was written into a lesbian leaning bisexual, even though she isn't. Xander was written to be more heroic than he really was because cowardice and blind obedience are not seen positively (which ended up backfiring because his actions don't change, making him a hypocrite). Swimsuits, hot springs and skinship all got neutered because the metric fuckton of fanservice that is par for the course for Japanese media is not what the west is used to (broad strokes, but you get the point).

If I were Treehouse, you would be hearing groans of increasing discomfort from me being asked to make Fates presentable.

I agree with all of this. Also the changes in Forrest personality were made taking into consideration people in the west weren't going to be happy about Forrest apologizing and accepting the bad treatment just because of who he was. Same thing happened with Niles x Male Corrin, and Rhajat x Female Corrin, in which Niles and Rhahat both feel bad and rejected for being in love with someone of the same gender. Western audiences would have taken it badly.

I do think Treehouse is localizing 3H but I don't think this new game will be as problematic. Also, for the stuff Treehouse did wrong they received a lot of backlash, so much so that even other localization team mocked them, so I'm sure they know they have to be careful now. 

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3 hours ago, kyrt said:

Hopefully Nintendo of America (Treehouse) will learn from the mistakes of Fates. The fact a game like xenoblade chronicles 2 was able to be released makes me hopeful that there will be minimal interference on their part since more mature games like wolfenstein, skyrim, eri kitami, etc... have been released or will be releasing on their store with no Nintendo interference. Perhaps the switch really is trying to cater to all ages and not try and make all of their games accessible to everyone. Hell if the game is released world-wide this massive differentiation between scripts will hopefully completely be non-existent as they could easily just make the game for the world rather than one country. This is Treehouse's last chance with me and if they mess it up I'll just never buy another treehouse worked on product again. Assuming of course treehouse is who is working on it...

Here's the thing. Tetsuya Takahashi (Xenoblade producer) said that there were frequent meetings with Nintendo of America and Nintendo of Europe during Xenoblade Chronicles 2's development, where they helped laid out what would be more universally accepted.

I'm going to guess they're taking a similar stance with Fire Emblem. I doubt they want a re-run of Fates' controversy. 

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Uh, just so we're clear, how has Treehouse's localization efforts been recently? I know they got memey with Triforce Heroes (though, to be fair, the plot for that game is silly as well, but intentionally), Pokemon Super Mystery Dungeon and Fire Emblem Fates, but has there been anything else since then that was considered "too memey/censored"? I heard there was some sort of shake-up among the staff or something and I haven't really heard any new meme/censorship horror stories since then.

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15 minutes ago, NoirCore said:

Uh, just so we're clear, how has Treehouse's localization efforts been recently? I know they got memey with Triforce Heroes (though, to be fair, the plot for that game is silly as well, but intentionally), Pokemon Super Mystery Dungeon and Fire Emblem Fates, but has there been anything else since then that was considered "too memey/censored"? I heard there was some sort of shake-up among the staff or something and I haven't really heard any new meme/censorship horror stories since then.

As far as I can tell, there isn't a lot of controversy about Treehouse outside of Fire Emblem. As you said, Triforce Heroes was very memey but that game is wacky to begin with.

When it comes to Mario and Pokemon and such, there really are few problems. Granted, they have been responsible for some notable mistranslations in Zelda. One particularly instance in Breath of the Wild where Zelda states Ganon has given up on reincarnation, when it fact it was supposed to be the opposite (when you look at the Japanese and other versions).

I also heard they essentially completely rewrote Demise's speeches in Zelda: Skyward Sword.

Edited by Sentinel07
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3 hours ago, SageOfAnys said:

Also I have another point to add - isn't it Treehouse that localized Heroes? If so, then honestly I think people need to calm down a little more about the possibility of Treehouse being the localizer.

I would not call the localization of Heroes good either. The naming system of some skills is a disgusting mess and some of the skill descriptions are flat out wrong.

Naming mess:

Spoiler

 

Steady Blow versus Steady Stance/Breath
The former gives [0/4/4/0] while the latter two gives [0/0/6/0] and [0/0/4/0] respectively. Since Armored Blow is [0/0/6/0], I assume Armored Stance is going to be [0/4/4/0] at this point.

Death Blow versus Fierce Stance.
Is it really that hard to make them match?

Swift Strike versus Swift Stance / Mirror Strike versus Mirror Stance:
Swift Sparrow is not even using Blow in its name so there is nothing wrong with Swift Blow. Even more so for Mirror Strike since the only thing using Mirror in its name is its Stance counter part.

Swift Sparrow versus Kestrel Stance:
The crap that started it all.

— — — — — — —

Wo Dao versus Harmonic Lance / Slaying Sword/Axe/Lance/Bow versus Barbed Shuriken:
What the hell is wrong with these people?

 

Wrong Skill Descriptions:

Spoiler

 

Rauðrblade/Blárblade/Gronnblade: "Slows Special trigger (cooldown count+1). Adds total bonuses on unit to damage dealt."
The bolded and underlined part is wrong; if that were true, Blade tomes would be even more broken. The correct description should be something like "Adds total bonuses to Atk." Adding a flat amount to damage would be Wo Dao and its line of Weapon's effect.

Holy Vestments/Sacred Cowl/Aegis: "If foe's Range=2, reduces damage from that foe's attack by 30/50%."
These skills will not work if the foe's Range is 2, but counter attacks with Close Counter. The description would have made more sense by making it similar to the Buckler line with "Reduces damage from a foe's attack from 2 spaces away by 30/50%."

Dragon Gaze/Draconic Aura/Dragon Fang: "Boosts Atk by 30/50%."
Based on how the damage formula works, it would have been better to have it written as "Boosts damage dealt by 30/50% of unit's Atk," to make it match Glowing Ember and Chilling Wind lines. If the skill actually works like how its written, then the boosted Atk would be subjected to triangle advantage and disadvantage.

 

 

20 minutes ago, NoirCore said:

but has there been anything else since then that was considered "too memey/censored"?

I do not think Heroes is memey or censored, but some of the skill descriptions are plain wrong or confusing. You can check out Treehouses' incompetence in the above spoilers.

Edited by XRay
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@XRay Don't forget "purging dagger" translated to "the cleaner". And it's an inheritable weapon, but sounds like a uninheritable one. There's quite a bit to gripe about from the last update. Every update something to snitch about.

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