Busterman64

Do you think Micaiah is a Marysue or no?

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Ok, so...this has been bugging for quite some time so I need others thoughts on this....Do you think Micaiah is a Marysue? Why or why not?

I ask because some have kinda thrown that name at her and I'm trying to figure why, but I just don't see it.

 

Is because of her ability to see danger or foresight? Not too crazy since she said she was a Fortune teller for a while.

Is it because she can do anything without fail? No cause she fails quite a lot when Ike shows up.

Is it because she's always right in her decisions...I don't think so either since she ended up letting Jarod go, which kinda backfired.

Maybe I'm overlooking something or maybe what I classify as marysue isn't as strict as other people and/or I'm a bit more forgiving if it isn't very strong. Dunno.

I know Marysues CAN be wrong, but they usually get stuff right.

Some say Ike was being a Garystu in Radiant Dawn, which I can kinda see for certain reasons, but eh....I just can't say for sure.

 

But like I said, what do you guys think? Whatever you gotta say, say it because I'm REALLY curious if others feel that way about Micaiah. 

 

 

 

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This topic has been argued so many times it's boring now...

I don't think either Micaiah or Ike, especially the latter, are Sues/Stus. Not full blown ones anyway. Micaiah is much closer to being one than Ike in my opinion though.

Ike has everything from PoR to explain a lot of him in RD. You can't just throw away what happened in the previous game. He's highly respected because of his deeds in PoR and he's very strong now because he's grown up more over three years and he already has one war on his resume to harden him.

Micaiah doesn't have anything and she starts off much the same, highly respected/loved, but for much less and she has crazy powers to boot. Nobody seems to have a hair color or powers like hers, not even other Branded. Other Branded don't even seem to have powers often period. Soren has his tactical mind, but that's really it, if it can even be considered a power that his Brand gave him. From the start of the game, she's worshipped and treated like a goddess by the Daeins for little reason other than her hair color and fortune telling. The laguz are supposed to hate her for being Branded, yet they don't (Muarim and the wolves might have some reason not to, but Vika? She should be completely ignoring Micaiah's presence, but doesn't). These are Sue characteristics.

She's not a full blown Sue though, since she does have some presence of a flaw or two and is called out by Sothe at least once. But it didn't really do much in the long run. Imo, Micaiah had potential to be great, as she was a unique kind of lord being a mage and a female. Ike should've taken more of a backseat in the story imo (but still having a decent role and playable status), or just increase Micaiah's role more, so the game could be more focused on her.

And this is coming from a huge Ike fangirl who just hates how Micaiah was written.

Edited by Anacybele

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Let's see...

She was ultimately powerless to really do anything, was manipulated for most of the game and was forced to kill an innocent friend, only to learn that she didn't have to(Unless you're doing it a second time yadda yadda yadda).

I'm gonna say no.

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Micaiah has some characteristics but she isn't one. If she was truly one, then she could be only one able to fight against Ashera with everyone cheering her on, even Ike. The game would we warped around her, since she is the only one that could resolve the conflict Not just that, but  throughout the story everyone would be gushing about how awesome she is, and those who don't obviously haven't seen the light. 

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She's an awful person full of flaws and a hypocrite willing to do anything for her deplorable, racist and just plain awful country, including joining the objectively wrong side of a war or murdering innocents, and who also loves victim blaming. The last thing she is is a Mary Sue.

Edited by Nobody

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let's not forget that she was around at the burning of Serenes, as well as being noticed for not aging much at all.

which was well over 20? years before PoR.

i mean once you get that little revelation handed it kinda turns from "blahblah kiddy mary sue" to "holy shit what the fuck?"

I wouldn't call her a mary sue. Cradle Robber? Yeah sure, but not mary sue.

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2 minutes ago, Czarpy said:

let's not forget that she was around at the burning of Serenes, as well as being noticed for not aging much at all.

which was well over 20? years before PoR.

 

She couldn't have been much older than early infancy though, otherwise she'd have memories of being taken away. My guestimations put her ~24-28.

 

As for being a perfectionist. Nope. Micaiah does have a lot of powers, useful powers that do miraculous stuff. Part 1 uses them a good deal, and Part 4 too.

However even in Part 1 she makes mistakes, like Jarod capturing her, Jarod finding her alone at night, her choosing to spare Jarod. Part 3 is defined by Micaiah being powerless- the entirety of this Part she is devoid of them and she is far from perfect here- only succeeding by virtue of the element of surprise, and desperate tactics against a foe trying to hold its punches.

Part 4 when it brings Micaiah's powers back and adds the Apostle revelation, the source of those powers steals limelight from Micaiah, which if she was being made out as a perfectionist everyone worshipped, I would not expect to be the case, Yune would be nothing compared to Micaiah. The Apostle revelation is only made clear in the Epilogue too, and its hinting before then is directed at Sanaki. And then of course you have Ike divvying up the remainder of what Yune doesn't take in the Tower.

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Micaiah is very far from a Sue and it's a term I wish people would stop throwing around. Mostly because Sue/Stu now is being attributed to "character I don't like and want to insult" and due to the negative connotations of it people immediately jump on the "Oh this character must be trash if they're a Sue!"

A Mary Sue or Gary Stu is a character that warps the reality and laws of a world to fit them to the detriment of that world. You can be a perfect character and not be a Sue (see a Paragon who is literally a pillar of goodness and all that is right). You can have all the worst qualities and be one (see Villain Sue). Micaiah's not a Mary Sue.

 

Sorry for the slight rant xD 

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No. She has some of the traits associated with them, though.

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Mary Sue as a term is one that has long been warped from its original incarnation, whether that one was accurate to begin with. In any case, my own interpretaion of the term is someone who the story itself doesn't allow to falter. It's not about being flawless, it's about whether the enviroment of the work of fiction (people, events, circumstances, etc.) bends its structure to favor the character. Character can be flawed, but if things still go their way, or characters actively ignore said flaws, or events align to their favor, then yes, it could come up as Sue'ish. It's still up to interpretation, since nowadays no one really applies the exact same circumstances as someone else, or even to itself.

As it is, no, I don't think she's a Mary Sue. At least, no more than Ike who gets thrown the same label (well, the Male one: Gary Stu) as well for his Radiant Dawn self. Sometimes, though, it's not about if they really think so, but are simply jumping on the bandwagon for whatever reason. Like not liking the character, so they attach the label even if they themselves may not think so. Just to discourage others. As it is, the label is thrown through either ignorance or malice, and does some of the arguments done to label a character as such.

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Did we really need to reopen this 10 year old debate? 

No she isn't, Ike is closer to one than she is (in RD not PoR). 

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2 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Micaiah doesn't have anything and she starts off much the same, highly respected/loved, but for much less and she has crazy powers to boot. Nobody seems to have a hair color or powers like hers, not even other Branded. Other Branded don't even seem to have powers often period. Soren has his tactical mind, but that's really it, if it can even be considered a power that his Brand gave him. From the start of the game, she's worshipped and treated like a goddess by the Daeins for little reason other than her hair color and fortune telling. The laguz are supposed to hate her for being Branded, yet they don't (Muarim and the wolves might have some reason not to, but Vika? She should be completely ignoring Micaiah's presence, but doesn't). These are Sue characteristics.

Her hair color is just a coincidence that's never really explained iirc. She's called the Silver-Haired Maiden because she got famous and its an easily recognizable feature. The worshipping isn't due to hair color, but the powers she has and her being a symbol for the people. If blue hair was practically unheard of, then Ike might be known as the Blue-Haired Mercenary or something. Fortune-telling and Sacrifice are weird powers, sure, but I think that's more due to the presence of / her bond with Yune rather than due explicitly to her being Branded. If that's stated as the reason somewhere, though, then oops. As for being ignored, I can't remember how many people know she's Branded and when they find out. Maybe by the time Vika and the others do, they know her well enough to not hate her for her birth. Its been a while, so not sure.

As to the original question, I don't consider her to be a Mary Sue.

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Just to clarify on the Laguz and their opinion on branded. They don't hate them, that's what the Beorc do. Laguz, however, perceive uneasyness around them, so what they do is try to ignore them. However, it's stated that not all Laguz know of the branded, or that they're the cuase of that uneasyness. Vika is one of them. The fact she doesn't know why she feels what she does when near Micaiah shows she's one of the Laguz that have no idea that most of their kind shun the Branded. When you think about it, it's a bit self-fulfilling. Laguz do their best to ignore the Branded exist, so they don't mention about them at all. Not even to their own offsprings, most likely. So many Laguz would grow knowing nothing about them if ever.

This, of course, doesn't really apply to the Laguz that live in Hatari, as they don't have the full baggage the rest of Tellius does, precisely because they are so isolated from them. I don't remember if either of Nailah or Volug bring up feeling unease around Micaiah, but they certainly don't ignore her either, and are even aware that some Branded do live in Hatari proper.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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Nope. She does have some traits that could fool you into believing she is one if you only play part 1 like her fortune telling, her sacrifice ability and the fact that for some reason in an anime world where you have blue, green and red hair somehow her silver hair is special (this one I find funny more than anything).

Of course anyone who has played the full game could tell you that she is not a mary sue despite these little things.

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Micaiah would have some physical traits associated with the figure of the Mary Sue; her powers and the silver hair are definitely special, and something that makes her stand-out, specially during Part 1; but there is something important to know.

The Mary Sue/Gary Stu is more than a character trope, it's a story trope; the way a Mary Sue works basically is creating a central character that isn't just the most important piece of a media it's the  essencially the only important thing about the story; the overall narrative would have something interesting between all the bad stuff; but it's hard to notice that because the story it's too busy trying to make the Mary Sue stand out even more (sounds familiar? Corrin it's something closer to the idea of a Mary Sue, specially because the original Mary Sues were essencially self-insersion, that wanted to always be perceived in a positive light and always be relevant to the narrative).

There's a video I found talking about the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2-GIY9RTqU

Micaiah controls the plot? Only as far as her actual actions and her blood can. Micaiah it's the center of the narrative? Technically she's the most important character in the story, but there's also a lot of other characters with  very important roles (like the other commanders and Sephiran), and she isn't a exposition void, in fact, the game trys to hide stuff about her all the time. Micaiah in fact, she can feel directly the negative effects of some of her actions; and nobody it's try to hiding the fact she would be doing gray stuff (not even herself).

TL;DR: Definitely not a Mary Sue; she just looks like one because she's a special snowflake, but in fantasy pretty much every main character it's a special snowflake at some level.

Edited by Troykv

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3 hours ago, Jedi said:

Did we really need to reopen this 10 year old debate?

What is the best way to form a state?

What is good, if it exists?

What is up with these Tellius characters?

These are but a few of the the questions which will endure until the eschaton.

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No. Micaiah is certainly very special with her special hair colour, special powers, special pureness, special backstory, but I don't think she's a sue.

Because Micaiah makes mistakes, is forced to make compromises to her morals and she's frequently told she's wrong.

Even Izuke of all people isn't exactly wrong that her glory hogging could have had some serious consequences. Sure Izuka being Izuku undermines the arguement but the game does seem to agree that things could have gone wrong if Pelleas did't make the battle for Dain his battle.

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Okay I am honestly so happy to read this.

There was a period of time where you couldn't mention liking Micaiah without being dogpiled by people claiming she's a trash Mary Sue so it's nice reading that people don't seem to think that way anymore. :)

Also I've never gotten the whole "hair color" thing myself. Especially in a game where people routinely have blue, purple, green, and every other color hair. It's a design choice more than it's denoting anything "special" about her and it's an easily recognizable trait about someone. "We don't know this healer's name? We'll call her by something easily identifiable - like her hair!"

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There were a couple of times where certain people agreed with Izuka over Micaiah even in part one. For example, Tauroneo agreed that going to Shifu Swamp was a bad idea and decided against it. Izuka pointed out that Micaiah had sidelined Pelleas which pretty much everyone agreed with. Most main characters and all Mary Sues are generally treated to be correct when up against someone as evil as Izuka so I don't see the Mary Sue complaints even in part one. 

10 hours ago, Troykv said:

(sounds familiar? Corrin it's something closer to the idea of a Mary Sue, specially because the original Mary Sues were essencially self-insersion, that wanted to always be perceived in a positive light and always be relevant to the narrative).

Sounds like most male protagonists in FE, not just Corrin. Not accusing them of being Mary Sues but I do find it odd that people criticize Kris and Corrin for doing things that the likes of Marth do. 

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She's definitely not a sue. All her powers and admiration are already explained in the game. 

•) Her silver hair is nothing special, it's  just a symbol of recognition as she and the dawn brigade are always on the run and hidden. So most of the villagers recognize her due to her silver locks.

•) She's admired by the Daein people because during their occupation, she and her group were the only ones who helped the people from Begnion's cruelty. As she's the leader, she gets the most attention because it's obvious. During the mad kings war, Ike was the only one who was praised as the hero of the Mad kings war since he was the general of the army that defeated Ashnard. Yet he had countless help from so many people.

•) Her powers of versions and Sensing malice from people is due to her heritage. Herone's are said to have powers of Sensing/Reading thoughts and desires. These powers was manifested in her rather differently due to her being half human.

•) Considering all her foolish trusting attitude and believing in people lead her to make some very stupid desicions. And she was highly criticised for them by Sothe, Jill, Leonardo, Ike, Ranulf, Lethe, Zihark and Tibarn. 

Considring all this, There is no way she's a Marysue.

Edited by Skyla

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Thanks for the comments guys. It seems like I wasn't the first to ask this question, but I just couldn't help but wonder cause I'll be honest...issues with Micaiah aside...I like Micaiah as a character. A bit underdeveloped and whatnot, but I still like her. But I wanted to see if the other saw her as a marysue or not. 

 

Again, Thanks! :Joshua:

 

On 6/19/2018 at 7:13 AM, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Okay I am honestly so happy to read this.

There was a period of time where you couldn't mention liking Micaiah without being dogpiled by people claiming she's a trash Mary Sue so it's nice reading that people don't seem to think that way anymore. :)

Also I've never gotten the whole "hair color" thing myself. Especially in a game where people routinely have blue, purple, green, and every other color hair. It's a design choice more than it's denoting anything "special" about her and it's an easily recognizable trait about someone. "We don't know this healer's name? We'll call her by something easily identifiable - like her hair!"

It surprises me that there was a time like that. Playing the game years ago, with no real ties to the internet like I have now...I never saw that. Micaiah never seemed marysue-ish to me and I could never understand why people called her that. 

Also, I love Micaiah's hair! It's really nice! Probably weird to hear a guy say that, but I really like her hair!

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Micaiah has some characteristics of a Mary Sue in that she's just randomly given everything for plot convenience. Ability to tell the future? Sure. Ability to sing a song she's never heard before for some unknown reason? Um, okay. Empress of Begnion, voice of the Goddess, Yune's special snowflake? Um, what? Not to mention, she's always being rescued and bailed out of even slightly difficult situations or tests of character, whether it be Sothe, Kurthnaga, or Part 4. Everyone just magically forgives her for everything she's done. She tried to burn Sanaki alive but that's easily forgotten about. Not to mention, in Part 3 it's stated that she killed a large amount of soldiers in the Begnion Central army. I have no doubt Micaiah's actions killed more people than the blood pact would have if she'd disobeyed orders after finding out, but hey, that doesn't matter because they're not from Daein so she doesn't care (that said,, even then a lot of Daein soldiers would have died too).

She's not a Mary Sue, though. For a start, a Mary Sue would be able to double attack. Really, though, I think she's a villain that the game tries to portray as a hero. Part of the reason I ship her with Zelgius really, although I'd say she's much more of a villain than the Black Knight, who was being manipulated by Sephiran and actually goes against orders he disapproves of knowing the consequences (there's no way Zelgius could have known that he would be saved by Sanaki during 3-10). Her being Branded feels tacked on and unnecessary to her character since unlike Zelgius or Soren she's never shown to have suffered for this. She lives in Daein of all places yet no one cares? Seems legit. 

And yet, I still like her character. I don't even know why! 

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2 hours ago, Lost Impact said:

She's not a Mary Sue, though. For a start, a Mary Sue would be able to double attack. Really, though, I think she's a villain that the game tries to portray as a hero. Part of the reason I ship her with Zelgius really, although I'd say she's much more of a villain than the Black Knight, who was being manipulated by Sephiran and actually goes against orders he disapproves of knowing the consequences (there's no way Zelgius could have known that he would be saved by Sanaki during 3-10). Her being Branded feels tacked on and unnecessary to her character since unlike Zelgius or Soren she's never shown to have suffered for this. She lives in Daein of all places yet no one cares? Seems legit. 

And yet, I still like her character. I don't even know why! 

Well; unlike Soren; Micaiah actually had some one (maybe another Branded) to teach her about the dangers of the world for a person like her; and is easier to Micaiah to protect the brand unlike Soren (specially knowing Daein is a North Country, she can justify the usage of gloves); and well; Micaiah's heron-like abilities can help her to avoid problems, despite being far of perfect.

Zelgius mostly suffers for existencial problems because he wants to be a great warrior and respected member of the Daein's Army like his beloved master; but the brand makes him age slowly; and people will eventually notice that (2X? Zelgius looks pretty much the same compared with 4X? Zelgius)... and that very problematic for a public figure, specially in Daein.

Micaiah didn't have that problem (at least until she get attached with Daein after the Mad King War), because she would always just dissapeared and move to another place... before the Dawn Brigade's creation she was pretty much a nobody; and if she had never attempted to do something about Daein; at most, Micaiah would have been remembered as a rumour.

Micaiah would have lived a pacific and lonely life.

Edited by Troykv

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22 minutes ago, Troykv said:

Well; unlike Soren; Micaiah actually had some one (maybe another Branded) to teach her about the dangers of the world for a person like her; and is easier to Micaiah to protect the brand unlike Soren (specially knowing Daein is a North Country, she can justify the usage of gloves); and well; Micaiah's heron-like abilities can help her to avoid problems, despite being far of perfect.

Zelgius mostly suffers for existencial problems because he wants to be a great warrior and respected member of the Daein's Army like his beloved master; but the brand makes him age slowly; and people will eventually notice that (2X? Zelgius looks pretty much the same compared with 4X? Zelgius)... and that very problematic for a public figure, specially in Daein.

Micaiah didn't have that problem (at least until she get attached with Daein after the Mad King War), because she would always just dissapeared and move to another place... before the Dawn Brigade's creation she was pretty much a nobody; and if she had never attempted to do something about Daein; at most, Micaiah would have been remembered as a rumour.

Micaiah would have lived a pacific and lonely life.

Sure, but she loses her gloves upon promotion. Ack, my apologies, turns out there is something covering her hands. Never mind. 

Edited by Lost Impact

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