Busterman64

Do you think Micaiah is a Marysue or no?

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2 minutes ago, Lost Impact said:

Sure, but she loses her gloves upon promotion. 

Only in Part 4, just a bit before the Ashera's Tower, in pretty much the last place where someone would care about the fact one of the heros of your army it's a Branded (and she is still using something similar to gloves... just... that don't cover that much the hand compared with Light Sage and Light Mage's gloves).

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On 6/18/2018 at 11:25 PM, Jedi said:

Did we really need to reopen this 10 year old debate? 

No she isn't, Ike is closer to one than she is (in RD not PoR). 

In RD Ike has his experiences in PoR to justify him being a "Gary Stu." 

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For me the most important trait of a Mary Sue is that they are loved unconditionally. With Michaiah this isn't the case. She gets critisized plenty of times with words like ''Foolish'' , ''out of her mind'',  and even ''She's nuts''.

And this isn't done by villains but by characters the plot seems to view as more heroic than Michy.   

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Since a Mary Stu would be overly powerful compared to everyone, being perfect in every way, and loved by everyone, I don't think that could really apply to Micaiah.

Part 3 pretty much goes against the idea of her being a Mary Stu since her army is struggling through out Part 3 against enemies that are usually more powerful and have the advantage over them, let alone have some people in her army turn against her.  She also questioned quite a few times through out the game, so people don't just blindly take her word on everything.

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I would say no, in honesty both Micaiha and Ike have certain tendancies that lean towards being a Mary Sue in one way or another but I would not regard either one as a Mary Sue.

Miachaiha is for the most part liked really well by everyone in the army (thus her Mary Sueism) however part of this is how kindhearted and natured she is. Prior to joining the Liberation Army she was a refugee on the run in her own country. The Liberation Army would have heard of the Dawn Brigade and would at very least admire her bravery. She constantly puts herself at risk either for good and safety of someone else (in some cases this is a very foolish action but that's another story) or for the good of the army. Given all that it's no wonder she's popular among the Dain army, the final reason I don't think she is, is due to she has to struggle and fight just to survive more than anyone else in the game.

Ike is respected by Crimea and Gallia equally and comes across as an Over Powered Powerhouse (hence his Mary Sueism). However Ike didn't just wake up to this position he had to EARN it, he has fought battles that granted him the strength and experience he know has. He didn't just win his spurs he earned them. He has the respect of Crimea because he and his comrades drove Ashnards forces out of Crimea effectively saving Crimea, so again he had to fight for and earn the respect he has. He has the respect of Gallia partly because his father was friends with Caihneghas and partly because Ike himself sees Laguz as equal in value and significane to Beorc. We're dealing with an Ike who has the experience of previous battles under his belt and who is a War Hero. With that said it wouldn't make sense for Ike to not have respect among Crimea and Gallia or for him not to be a strong, experienced and capable fighter. He has already earned his spurs.

Every main character and hero has some charactersitics that lean them to being a Mary Sue but those charactersitics alone don't automatically make them one. So no I do not consider Michaiha a Mary Sue for the afore mentioned reasons. Bear in mind she's not even my favourite character, there are even times I think she acts foolishly, but I still do not consider her a Mary Sue.

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The definition of "Mary Sue" can be hard to pin down. Some people think that in order to be a Mary Sue, a character has to be incredibly beautiful, powerful and special. Everyone either loves them unconditionally or hates them irrationally, and the latter group is always vilified. There's a lot more that can be said, but I'm going to take the easy route and just link to TV Tropes. (I'll see you in a few hours)

Anyway, taken out of context, Micaiah has some of the traits associated with being one, but she doesn't exist in a vacuum. Put her into the story and she doesn't stand out any more that any of the other Fire Emblem lords. Characters with colorful hair and mysterious powers are a dime a dozen in the series. Healing or fortune telling or whatever is par for the course. It's not like; "this character comes from a different universe, and also they have a gun" (I just described Kiran, didn't I?) If the argument is that the plot revolves around her, well, yeah, because she's a protagonist. She's leading a resistance band in a war-torn country, of course that's going to draw some attention.

On the subject of Ike, he could also be considered a Gary Stu when taken out of context, but we get to see him go from a small-time mercenary to a hero. Like everyone said, he earned it. I find it funny that RD builds him up as some sort of superman, but anyone who's played PoR knows he's just a dude who wants to fight for his friends and kinda fell ass-backwards into his role.

TLDR; Ike and Miccy both have some Sue/Stu traits, but that's pretty standard for FE lords and they both fit in the story.

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Every protagonist, by the very definition of the word, has one Mary Sue trait: they are the centre of the narrative. What happens to protagonists that aren't? They become like Vaan, hated and laughed at the world over. If your story ISN'T about the protagonist, you've failed the basics of the basics when it comes to storytelling and it is - as such - completely stupid to call any character a plot revolves mainly around a Mary Sue / Gary Stu just based on that fact alone.
The way I see it, a Mary Sue is a character whose flaws are never addressed in-story, or if they are, it's only to show that they exist. They never have any consequences for the character and they will NEVER be seen in a bad light, even if the character is on the opposing side. They are also a character with inexplicable special powers that can't be explained by the world they exist in or are contradictory to previous world-building. They are the kind of character that never fails and does everything flawlessly (which is every video game protagonist in the hands of a skilled player, FE especially) and even if they make mistakes, they are handwaved and quickly forgotten about. They can also be as abrasive or non-sociable as they like, other characters in the story will still fight over who gets to be their footstool next. To me, a character becomes a Mary Sue / Gary Stu, when all of the above criteria are combined with this last one: Every other character in the story only exists to make them look good, either by constantly pointing out how amazing and awesome they are or - and this applies to video game characters specifically - by being noticeably worse in gameplay than the Mary Sue / Gary Stu.

Holy crap, I just realized I described the Fates Royals, Azura and Corrin...

Anyway, based on this, I don't think Micaiah is a Mary Sue, since almost NONE of the above can be applied to her other than the story revolving mainly around her, which makes sense, because... protagonist, remember?

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On 13-7-2018 at 2:08 AM, Scoot said:

The definition of "Mary Sue" can be hard to pin down. Some people think that in order to be a Mary Sue, a character has to be incredibly beautiful, powerful and special. Everyone either loves them unconditionally or hates them irrationally, and the latter group is always vilified.

For me that's definitely how I separate Michy from someone like Corrin.

Corrin is loved by all the siblings and most other characters unconditionally. Hana is the only non villain character shown to despise him and she's depicted as so petty about it that it only highlight how good Corrin actually is. 

This isn't the case with Micaiah. She often expresses fear that the love she receives is incredibly conditional and that everyone would immediately turn on her when it becomes known she's a branded. Considering she strives very hard to keep a war going that Daien doesn't have any business in Ike and the others in his army have every right to describe her as nuts. The truth is more complicated since they don't know the full story but with the information team Ike has they are very rational when they dismiss Michy as crazy. 

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If she was a mary sue she shouldn't be able to die in 1 hit and able to OHKO everybody like Ryoma in Birthright Normal Phoenix Mode. 

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On 6/21/2018 at 4:12 AM, Lost Impact said:

Sure, but she loses her gloves upon promotion. Ack, my apologies, turns out there is something covering her hands. Never mind. 

Those gloves really shouldn't hide the brand in the first place.

 

Anyway no, she's absolutely not a Mary Sue, at least narratively speaking. She might be seen as one by the populace, but the story itself goes well out of its way to show how she's not perfect and massively unable to cope with the situation she's in. The best definition of a Mary Sue that I've heard, is that instead of the character changing to fit the world, the world alters to fit the character. That is definitely not the case for Miaciah, as the world basically conspires to destroy her and she's ultimately on the losing end of the battle against Ike.

Edited by Jotari

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Those gloves really shouldn't hide the brand in the first place.

 

Anyway no, she's absolutely not a Mary Sue, at least narratively speaking. She might be seen as one by the populace, but the story itself goes well out of its way to show how she's not perfect and massively unable to cope with the situation she's in. The best definition of a Mary Sue that I've heard, is that instead of the character changing to fit the world, the world alters to fit the character. That is definitely not the case for Miaciah, as the world basically conspires to destroy her and she's ultimately on the losing end of the battle against Ike.

Exactly!

A Mary Sue alters the world to fit their neccesities, and blends the logic of the story to pander to that character (and potentially the self-insertion intentions many of these characters have).

And the only reason Micaiah don't ended up actually dying was because Yune needed her help before she awaken as the "Dark God" product of a Chaos overwhelm (and Yune ended up being who protected the main characters from Ashera's Omniattack)

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Micaiah is not a Mary Sue. If she had been, she wouldn’t have been sidelined.

I think a lot of people just see a weirdly-powerful character and think “Mary Sue” when it is more complicated than that. Being a Mary Sue has little to do with abilities or always making correct decisions; a Mary Sue occurs when gratification of the character matters over actual establishment of the character.

For two examples in FE: Corrin and Alm are both Gary Stus. I don’t think I need to say why Corrin is a Gary Stu, so let’s look at Alm:

Alm has a lot of character traits, but he doesn’t earn those traits through character establishment or development. The game spends more time telling us Alm is something special, rather than showing us why. He also distorts the plot around himself: rather than two protagonists that complement each other, we get one who we’re told is perfect, and one who seems like an idiot. Celica would have come across as a flawed character who believes at first that Valentia needs Mila, rather than a naive idiot, if Alm’s flaws of thinking only of the next battle had actually been properly addressed.

it takes more than not having any presented flaws, having characters fawn over you, or being OP: Ike is (for the most part) all these things in Radiant Dawn, but he actually earned those things in Path of Radiance. People like and respect him because he’s the hero of the Mad King’s War, and, even then, there’s one group of people who the audience is supposed to sympathize with, yet don’t like him at all: any Daein citizen who didn’t oppose Daein in PoR. Sothe’s respect for Ike in Radiant Dawn is a (if not the) point of contention between Sothe and Micaiah in part 1, and Micaiah only changes her mind about Ike late in Part 4 after seeing what he’s like as a person for herself. 

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I cringe everytime I've to read "Mary Sue" or "Gary Stu", jesus.

 

And yes, she gets everything handed to her pretty much.

Edited by Gareth

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Bear with me, because my loath for Micaiah is a flash-freeze from 10 years ago.

To understand where this Mary Sue talk is coming from, first you need to understand that Radiant Dawn jettisoned a hell of a lot of plot points and character development from Path of Rafiance. Radiant Dawn is a story of wasted opportunities, and it all boils down to Micaiah and the Dawn Brigade. 

Micaiah and The Dawn Brigade shouldn't exist. You could've removed either of them, and wouldn't have made a difference. Micaiah herself robbed certain Path of Radiance characters from stories that were rightfully theirs. These characters are.

-Mist, because of her ability to touch Lehran's medallion (Yune's vessel) without going insane.

-Soren, who is the rightful f*cking heir of Daein.

And yet, Radiant Dawn tosses Mist aside, and relegates Soren's bloodline to a super-secret series of support conversations that no average player will ever see.

Guess Micaiah's 3 major contributions by the end of the game?

-She is Yune's voice-box.

-She is the Queen of Daein.

-She liberated Daein.

Do you see where that whole "warps the story to fit her needs" come from? She was a literal fucking nobody, that got Ike's respect, Mist's Medallion Powers, and Soren's heritage all for herself by the end of Radiant Dawn. You could even say that Daein's liberation wad Pelleas' storyline. Think about it.

A whimpering King trust into leading the Liberation of a country that doesn't even belong to him by blood. Come chapter 3, and the Rightful King arrives, even if the later doesn't realize.

Pelleas vs Soren.

And once again, Pelleas is relegated to a plotline death (barring super-secret second playthrough) just so Micaiah gets her chance to be Queen of Daein.

And that's just the Mary Sue stuff. In general, Micaiah is just plain unlikeable.

In game-play terms, she's not very good and yet she's mandatory, not to mention she's surrounded herself with scrubs with low-base stats and outright game design mistakes. Look at Fiona or Meg. Look at Blonde Archer, or a late-game Sothe, who's also mandatory for those final chapters despite a Volke whose base Strength is greater that Sothe's Max Strength.

And story-wise, Micaiah is a fucking villain. You said it yourself. She's forced the player to ally with Izuka, of all people. She forces the player to murder the same Laguz the player's grown to love in Path of Radiance. She uses murderous, dirty tactics and fights for the wrong side of the war. 

But that's not the bad part. It's good writing, and could serve to show a flawed ruler forced into harsh decisions, for the sake of country and people.

But not here. Because of the Blood Pact.

The Blood Pact essentially means that Micaiah is free of all guilt from her actions, because it wasn't actually HER who pulled all the evil shit. She was actually MAGICALLY OBLIGATED by the REAL bad guys to do her bidding. So she is free of all consequences or guilt. Micaiah is free to be the Queen of Daein!

Yeah.

Micaiah is a piece of trash that shouldn't exist.

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20 minutes ago, genocide24 said:

Bear with me, because my loath for Micaiah is a flash-freeze from 10 years ago.

To understand where this Mary Sue talk is coming from, first you need to understand that Radiant Dawn jettisoned a hell of a lot of plot points and character development from Path of Rafiance. Radiant Dawn is a story of wasted opportunities, and it all boils down to Micaiah and the Dawn Brigade. 

Micaiah and The Dawn Brigade shouldn't exist. You could've removed either of them, and wouldn't have made a difference. Micaiah herself robbed certain Path of Radiance characters from stories that were rightfully theirs. These characters are.

-Mist, because of her ability to touch Lehran's medallion (Yune's vessel) without going insane.

-Soren, who is the rightful f*cking heir of Daein.

And yet, Radiant Dawn tosses Mist aside, and relegates Soren's bloodline to a super-secret series of support conversations that no average player will ever see.

Guess Micaiah's 3 major contributions by the end of the game?

-She is Yune's voice-box.

-She is the Queen of Daein.

-She liberated Daein.

Do you see where that whole "warps the story to fit her needs" come from? She was a literal fucking nobody, that got Ike's respect, Mist's Medallion Powers, and Soren's heritage all for herself by the end of Radiant Dawn. You could even say that Daein's liberation wad Pelleas' storyline. Think about it.

A whimpering King trust into leading the Liberation of a country that doesn't even belong to him by blood. Come chapter 3, and the Rightful King arrives, even if the later doesn't realize.

Pelleas vs Soren.

And once again, Pelleas is relegated to a plotline death (barring super-secret second playthrough) just so Micaiah gets her chance to be Queen of Daein.

And that's just the Mary Sue stuff. In general, Micaiah is just plain unlikeable.

In game-play terms, she's not very good and yet she's mandatory, not to mention she's surrounded herself with scrubs with low-base stats and outright game design mistakes. Look at Fiona or Meg. Look at Blonde Archer, or a late-game Sothe, who's also mandatory for those final chapters despite a Volke whose base Strength is greater that Sothe's Max Strength.

And story-wise, Micaiah is a fucking villain. You said it yourself. She's forced the player to ally with Izuka, of all people. She forces the player to murder the same Laguz the player's grown to love in Path of Radiance. She uses murderous, dirty tactics and fights for the wrong side of the war. 

But that's not the bad part. It's good writing, and could serve to show a flawed ruler forced into harsh decisions, for the sake of country and people.

But not here. Because of the Blood Pact.

The Blood Pact essentially means that Micaiah is free of all guilt from her actions, because it wasn't actually HER who pulled all the evil shit. She was actually MAGICALLY OBLIGATED by the REAL bad guys to do her bidding. So she is free of all consequences or guilt. Micaiah is free to be the Queen of Daein!

Yeah.

Micaiah is a piece of trash that shouldn't exist.

Jesus Christ. Just thinking about the wasted opportunity that was Pelleas and Soren makes my blood boil 

Here's a Dark Mage Lord who's father was the murderous Evil Overlord from the previous game. Every other country hates him by virtue of his birth, and his own country rejects him because, well, if the Dragon-Riding Master of Hatred couldn't lead his country to victory, what chance does this wimp have?

Bah. They say time heals wounds, but I say it's easy to transpose the apathy of today with your feelings of yester-year. Back then, when Path of Radiance was fresh in the mind, we didn't see Radiant Dawn as it's own thing. It was a continuation of Path of Radiance's story, and Micaiah took a heavy shit on every plot thread we wanted resolved.

EDIT: Oh, yeah. And on top of being Queen of Daein, Micaiah is secretly the RIGHTFUL Empress of Begnion.

Fuck.

Edited by genocide24

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my opnion on her can be summerised by this video: 

 

  I hope this helps to explain how I feel about her

 

Edited by darkblade2814

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