Which FE game has the most missed potential?

[Etrurian emperor]

2 hours ago, ping said:

I disagree with the mentions of Shadow Dragon's story/writing, even though it's my least favourite game of the series (I still like it - just not as much as the other entries). But I think that "wasted potential" is the wrong term here because it never aspired to give great detailed characterizations to characters that aren't Marth.

But that itself is wasted potential isn't it? They had the chance to do so and it would have tremendously benefited the game if they did. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, ping said:

I disagree with the mentions of Shadow Dragon's story/writing, even though it's my least favourite game of the series (I still like it - just not as much as the other entries). But I think that "wasted potential" is the wrong term here because it never aspired to give great detailed characterizations to characters that aren't Marth. It decided for a much more minimalistic approach with very little distractions from the main plot, and honestly, I think it did a great job at that. The writing, while short, is really good and Marth's struggle to act as a prince and not a son or brother is really a lot more interesting than most other lords' personal storylines. It's just that "minimalistic approach" isn't what most FE players are looking for.

Minimalistic needs certain things to work, such as an actual strong spin on casting it as ye olde minimalistic. Etrian Odyssey does that and I'm fine with it, why I'm presently working through one. SD needed to argue in favor of minimalism against the contrary paradigm which had ruled FE7 since at least FE7, but it never assembled such an argument, it just presented minimalism without any hints to the player to have fun with it. 

Or SD could have gone the route of a game inspired by Chrono Trigger or FFIV and VI, and attempt to sell the characters based on vibrant charm, if not that much actual development and characterization. But this isn't the case with SD either, the more realistic aesthetic of SD (not to say it was wholly a bad move- just in this aspect) and abundance of characters in FE in general don't help here.

Dolph, to pick someone who is amongst the worst cases of this, gets not a single word to him, his name is never stated by anyone else either- he might as well not exist. He is neither your own creation (such a mechanic would be difficult in FE- but the SoV Villagers and FE12 Kris customization actually come kinda close to what would work), nor like little old Robo or Sabin some joyous life of his own. 

Also, just because you set limited goals, does not mean those goals were ideally what you should have shot for. Why should have SD have limited its parameters so? While some first games in a series are the best overall or in some aspects, oftentimes this is not the case at all, particularly for franchises that originated on the NES. SMB3, Super Castlevania IV (or Dracula's Curse), Mega Man II, Super Metroid, ALttP, Kirby Super Star, why Japanese fans love Mystery the most, not Dark Dragon and the Blade of Light.

Nor does this ignore how it could have remained minimalistic but still have improved on the main plot, some brief appearances by Medeus and Michalis before you ever fight them for instance. Not necessarily having Medeus/Michalis walk onto the battlefield, two minutes of him chatting in Dolhr Keep/Macedon Citadel spread out like three times over the course of the game before things return to Marth hundreds of miles away would help- a lot of Ashnard's characterization came this way, and it worked for me.

[Etrurian emperor]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Nor does this ignore how it could have remained minimalistic but still have improved on the main plot, some brief appearances by Medeus and Michalis before you ever fight them for instance. Not necessarily having Medeus/Michalis walk onto the battlefield, two minutes of him chatting in Dolhr Keep/Macedon Citadel spread out like three times over the course of the game before things return to Marth hundreds of miles away would help- a lot of Ashnard's characterization came this way, and it worked for me.

Yeah, the lack of villain screentime is very unfortunate and really easy to fix.

I remember some generic Grust general reminding Minerva about Maria being held hostage. That could easily be turned into Michelis warning his sister not to get uppity, if Nyna is so hung up about Camus she could have flashbacks about their time together and Gharnef might benefit from taking a page out of Nergal's book and seeking Marth out just to torment him. We know Gotoh can send a hologram of himself to chat with Marth so why can't a projection of Gharnef appear before Marth to rub in his face how he still has Marth sister even when he takes back Altea. 

[Wuzzy]

• FE11 is the biggest one imo. The main problem is how you know little to no information on 3/4's of the class (Tomas, Macellan, Midia, Rickard, Bord, Cord, etc.) due to the lack of support conversations, or just something that made the characters more interesting. The focus on the entire game was pretty much Marth and Caeda go off on an adventure, with a few add-ons. Also, not a fan of how you can count the number of viable units on just 2 (maybe 3) hands. Lastly, I don't understand the point of the gaiden chapters (and recruiting specific characters, mainly Norne and Nagi). The game essentially encourages you to sack units just to unlock another unit down the road, which imo defeats the whole purpose of fire emblem which is making meaningful decisions to keep your units alive.
• FE10 while my favorite game, also had some issues. Mainly the shitty availability of some characters (Geofferey, Tormod, Muarim) that could be really good, but you get maybe 2 chapters with them in total. While I mean that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just that I'd rather not have the character be available early, and then they leave and come back towards the end (mainly a personal preference). Also if FE9 didn't exist, then we'd probably know nothing about the majority of the cast. The lack of support conversations kinda sucks since you don't know much about the characters (especially the Dawn Brigade), and a lot of the information we do know about the characters come from FE9. The support conversations in this game end up being 2 units being like "Oh good job" or "I have your back" or some cheesy line like that. 

[Shadow Mir]

On 6/25/2018 at 12:16 PM, Heruseus said:

The way the Hoshidians are just the noble good guys is bullshit.

I would've preferred if we had seen them give a reason to not help Nohr when they were starving.

To be fair, they didn't know about that until Shura told them of it, and even if they had, there is still the fact that Hans, Iago and Garon are warmongers.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Of all the Fire Emblem games I've played extensively, FE9 is easily one of the best ones, but I could think of like five or six things I'd change about it which don't seem like they'd be very large changes, while the issues I have with many of the other games feel like they'd be pretty hard to fix without more or less making a different game. Arguably that would still apply for this thread, but I went ahead and put Path of Radiance down anyway.

[SavageVolug]

On 6/25/2018 at 12:16 PM, Heruseus said:

For me it was easily BIrthright.

The way the Hoshidians are just the noble good guys is bullshit.

I would've preferred if we had seen them give a reason to not help Nohr when they were starving.

I can't help but agree with you there. Say what you will about Nohr and it's people (like Hans being a thug at best) but there's NO WAY Hoshido could not know about Norhr's economy. Especially when they are right next to each other, only reason they did that was to make sure Hoshido was blameless. You can't tell me they know the origin to the Faceless and that they sometimes turn on their makers (something we're expected to take as fact) and yet SOMEHOW be completely ignorrant to the state of Nohr's economy. Hoshido also has it's problems but the game never addresses them, which is why I probably primarily play Fates for the customization aspects to it and not the story.

[ping]

@Interdimensional Observer, @Etrurian emperor - Sorry for the late reply.

I think of "wasted potential" as something that could have been done with the concept and the direction of a game, but hasn't been - and I'd say that the thing that people usually criticize about SD's writing (very little, if any, characterization for most player characters) is part of the concept: Keep the writing in the NES style of the original, try to encourage people to play like Kaga intended (i.e. Iron Man). It's also big theme of the story that non-Marth characters are more expendable than he is; like with the sacrifice in the prologue, or Midia's dialogue at the start of her joining chapter.

So in my opinion, the lack of characterization in FE11 is comparable to the lack of characterization in Super Mario Land, that the Civ series isn't historically accurate, or that Europa Universalis doesn't really have much internal empire management in its mechanisms. You can see those as flaws, but it isn't really within the game's potential to see Mario's growing desperation when he is tricked by whoever that game's villain was for the second and third time.

[Harvey]

On 7/4/2018 at 6:31 PM, ping said:

Super Mario Land, that the Civ series isn't historically accurate, or that Europa Universalis doesn't really have much internal empire management in its mechanisms. You can see those as flaws, but it isn't really within the game's potential to see Mario's growing desperation when he is tricked by whoever that game's villain was for the second and third time.

....I get you are trying to make a point but what does the plumber have to do with it? Comparing fe11 to any super Mario game for characterization seems rather odd since Mario is more about gameplay and follows simple plots. Fe11 on the other hand has a plot with characters based on the first game.

Fe11 is a remake and should have been treated as such. Having the writing identical to the original isn't exactly a good thing which makes the remake a wasted potential.

 

[ping]

20 minutes ago, Harvey said:

identical

The complete script from starting a new game until you're able to move your units...

...in Dark Dragon: (source)

Quote

Jeigan: Prince Marth, Princess Sheeda has arrived from Talis Casle.

Marth: What's wrong, Sheeda? Has something happened at the castle?

Sheeda: Prince Marth, I'm so happy to see you. The pirates of Garda suddenly attacked us. The castle has been taken and many people have been killed. Please, save my father!

Marth: It'll be alright, Sheeda. Aritia's courageous knights are inside this fortress. We won't lose to a gang of pirates. Now, come with me to Talis Castle!

...in Shadow Dragon (not counting the playable prologue on normal difficulty): (source)

Quote

“Long ago, Medeus, king of the dragonkin, conquered the continent of Akaneia, beginning an age of fear and despair for all its people. That tyranny was broken, however, thanks to a miracle. A young man hailing from the Altea region appeared with a divine blade in hand. He stood against the Shadow Dragon, and struck him down. For some time after, the land enjoyed an age of peace.”

“However, after a century’s passing, the Shadow Dragon returned. He forged an alliance with a fiendish sorcerer who sought to rule the world, and their combines might topple kingdom upon unsuspecting kingdom. Again, darkness threatened to engulf the continent. It fell upon the king of Altea, sole descendant of the dragon-slayer hero, to sally forth with the divine blade and fulfill his blood destiny.”

((chapter 1 title screen))

“Marth, prince of Altea, was lucky. Though Doluna took from him his kingdom and all but a handful of knights, they could not take his life. Marth lived, and made it to the eastern isle of Talys. Talys was a small border kingdom, with no grand order of knights to boast of, but its king selflessly gave Marth use of the isle’s eastern fortress. And as he saw the boy shake with anger and grief, he also gave wise counsel:
“Prince Marth,” he said, “I do not doubt you love your sister something great. But you must be patient…time is on your side. If you stay here, and grow stronger, a time will come when you can help her.”
So Marth stayed in Talys, protected by its kind people, and the years went by…”

Jagen: “Sire! You’ve a visitor from the castle. It’s Princess Shiida!”

Marth: “Shiida, what is it? You look white as a sheet!”

Shiida: “Marth, come quickly! It’s the castle… Galder’s pirates attacked from out of nowhere. They stormed the gates and cut down everyone in their path! I fear for my father’s life…”

Marth: “Steady, Shiida. You did well to come find us. Altea’s bravest knights aren’t about to hand Talys to that flock of seafowl. Come, we’ll make for the castle now!”

We seem to have differing opinions about the meaning of the word "identical".

[Harvey]

57 minutes ago, ping said:

The complete script from starting a new game until you're able to move your units...

...in Dark Dragon: (source)

...in Shadow Dragon (not counting the playable prologue on normal difficulty): (source)

We seem to have differing opinions about the meaning of the word "identical".

What you showed is a matter of how it is presented and apart from adding cutscenes, there is very minute differences of how it is written. I guess it all comes to how it's presented. 

Still very obsure of putting Mario in this though.

 

[ping]

I'm aware that the FE1 script is a fan translation and I have no idea how the Japanese versions of either game read - but the style in which Shadow Dragon is written is excellent. I do not believe that this is what many players criticize - it is the amount of characterization for anyone who isn't Marth or Nyna.

"Apart from adding cutscenes" is a rather misleading way to put it when the cutscenes in questions are about three times as long as the original dialogue. I stand by my statement that Shadow Dragon's writing is a significant upgrade from the original.

Please don't get hung up on the Mario example. I could have taken literally any (good) game with limited characterization for its cast instead. The actual argument is more along these lines:

1. A recurring element of SD is that Marth's life is more important than the life of his soldiers - not because of his value as a person, but because he is the prince of Altea and the only hope to defeat Medeus. Marth's iconic line "I am a prince before I am a son or brother" is used in a different context, but it still expresses the same sentiment - Marth being a prince is more important than Marth being a human being.
2. It's quite obvious that the game is trying to translate that into gameplay: the forced sacrifice in the prologue, the high number of units that are same-ish in their stats, the gaiden chapter requirements, the generic replacement units - all of this encourages the player to move on if they lose a unit instead of resetting for every loss.
3. The very shallow characterization of the supporting cast aims for the same thing: "This is a game about Marth. Don't get too attached to the other characters - you might have to make hard decisions and sacrifice some of them for the greater good."

Would the game be better if it had continued the trend of the previous games (well, kinda excluding RD, if you think about it) of giving more and more depth for all of the playable character? Well, perhaps. I never liked that the game requires me to play badly in order to visit the gaiden chapters because I always considered them to be rewards, not assistance.

But either way, such a game would have been fundamentally different from the vision that the developers had. It would be a completely different game, at least as far as the universal Fire Emblem base mechanics would allow it to be. Saying that it SD would have been better with PoR-level characterization is akin to saying that SD would have been a better game if it wasn't Shadow Dragon. I would say that if we accepted that statement to be true, then it would be a case of a bad foundation of the game, not missed potential - I consider "potential" something that could have been in the game without changing its fundament.

And that is where the Mario is supposed to come in, not in a "Mario = Fire Emblem, lol" kind of way. Some people seem to need the maximum amound of grit and edge for a story to be "good" - so for them, a "good" Mario story would include the dilemma of killing mushrooms, or the desparation when Mario can't save the princess no matter how hard he tries. But that kind of edgyness doesn't fit on the fundament of any Mario game, so it's very obviously not "missed potential" that the atmosphere in every Mario game that I've played is very light.

What I'm trying to say is that in SD's case, the foundation ("Marth is by far the most important character, including in-universe") does not allow for a level of characterization that's both broad and deep. Of course, it's far less obvious than the Mario example, especially since other games of the series use that very same "broad and deep characterization" as one of their main appeals, but I still believe it to be true.

[Harvey]

48 minutes ago, ping said:

Please don't get hung up on the Mario example. I could have taken literally any (good) game with limited characterization for its cast instead.

Except that Mario games with the exception of the rpg ones don't have much of characterization and even the rpg ones don't really develop Mario or Luigi to a large extent. Comparing marth to Mario is like comparing apples and oranges here.

53 minutes ago, ping said:

And that is where the Mario is supposed to come in, not in a "Mario = Fire Emblem, lol" kind of way. Some people seem to need the maximum amound of grit and edge for a story to be "good" - so for them, a "good" Mario story would include the dilemma of killing mushrooms, or the desparation when Mario can't save the princess no matter how hard he tries. But that kind of edgyness doesn't fit on the fundament of any Mario game, so it's very obviously not "missed potential" that the atmosphere in every Mario game that I've played is very light.

Where have people wanted edge for a Mario plot? Sure maybe for the rpg games but in the main ones? No one would want a dark edged Mario esque type game in the first place because no one asked for it.

There is a difference between Mario and FE. Mario has been the same throughout and will never change. While he has characterization, it is so simple that it hardly matters. Fire emblem is a series about characters who have depth. 

I still don't get how you compare Mario with this because frankly, every other game that Nintendo makes has almost little of it. 

The problem that shadow dragon is that it is a remake which means that it is supposed to address the issues that the original had while still being faithful from it's source. The lack of characterization of the characters is a legit complaint since the original barely has characters that talk. I haven't played fe11 but looking at it from a few scripts, when you have the ones that just did fe7, why not have that same style of creativity in terms of writing so that it feels like a new game instead of a remake like how echoes did?

 

[ping]

Me: "Please don't get too hung up on the Mario example. Here's my train of thought, it doesn't involve any Italians, plumbers, or Italian plumbers. I was merely trying to draw a parallel to Mario in this specific aspect of the discussion."
@Harvey: MARIO MARIO MARIO MARIO

*sigh*

[AnonymousSpeed]

@ping I just wanted to saw that I personally found your argument to be really interesting and insightful. A lot of Fire Emblem's conventions (the monster final boss, chosen royal, etc.) make a lot more sense when you consider the sort of game you say FE1 was supposed to be: A game about Marth, not a game about Marth and his army. A lot of fans like their peasant lords and human conflicts because Fire Emblem has evolved into this very cast-driven experience (on paper, at least), but these conventions were started in a distinct context.

Fates, from what I can gather, seems like the game I would have voted for if not for the fact that I haven't played it so it would be wrong to judge it so. It's also split into three options so yeah.

[Ottservia]

On 6/27/2018 at 8:25 AM, SavageVolug said:

I can't help but agree with you there. Say what you will about Nohr and it's people (like Hans being a thug at best) but there's NO WAY Hoshido could not know about Norhr's economy. Especially when they are right next to each other, only reason they did that was to make sure Hoshido was blameless. You can't tell me they know the origin to the Faceless and that they sometimes turn on their makers (something we're expected to take as fact) and yet SOMEHOW be completely ignorrant to the state of Nohr's economy. Hoshido also has it's problems but the game never addresses them, which is why I probably primarily play Fates for the customization aspects to it and not the story.

You see this is exactly why fates' story doesn't work. If you want us to choose between two opposing nations there NEEDS to be at least some level of adequate moral ambiguity. like the game tries to make nohr to make sympathetic but all really amounts to is a couple lines of dialogue and supports. Which honestly is not enough when you have such mustache twirling villains like gaoron, hans, and iago. Also on the whole hoshido thing it is kind of disgusting how "good" and "noble" they're made out to be like no country is this morally right without some kind of darkness hidden within. I mean the game does bring a few problems hoshido has but they're mostly just brought up only to be forgotten seconds later and have no sway on the plot or world building. Honestly as many others have said fates' story as a whole is just a huge mess of missed potential

[Shadow Mir]

On 6/27/2018 at 7:25 AM, SavageVolug said:

I can't help but agree with you there. Say what you will about Nohr and it's people (like Hans being a thug at best) but there's NO WAY Hoshido could not know about Norhr's economy. Especially when they are right next to each other, only reason they did that was to make sure Hoshido was blameless. You can't tell me they know the origin to the Faceless and that they sometimes turn on their makers (something we're expected to take as fact) and yet SOMEHOW be completely ignorrant to the state of Nohr's economy. Hoshido also has it's problems but the game never addresses them, which is why I probably primarily play Fates for the customization aspects to it and not the story.

To think Hoshido should've known about Nohr's economy is absurd imo - how could they have known when Silas doesn't state it until near the end of the game?? And even then, you still have the matter of Garon and his goons, neither of which would exactly be okay with peace... As for the Faceless, look what happens with Rhajat. Most other Faceless run ins were thanks to Iago, who is, well, Iago. I'd say the worst about Hoshido is that Corrin gets hit with a With Us Or Against Us in Revelation.

[Etrurian emperor]

44 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

To think Hoshido should've known about Nohr's economy is absurd imo - how could they have known when Silas doesn't state it until near the end of the game?? And even then, you still have the matter of Garon and his goons, neither of which would exactly be okay with peace... As for the Faceless, look what happens with Rhajat. Most other Faceless run ins were thanks to Iago, who is, well, Iago. I'd say the worst about Hoshido is that Corrin gets hit with a With Us Or Against Us in Revelation.

Hoshido should have known because Nohr is their direct neighbor. Just one trip across the border should be all that's needed to see that Nohr's a hellhole. The two nations are depicted as having a very tense relation but they aren't  isolationists or anything of the sort. 

Saizo going into Nohr to assassinate people means that Hoshidan ninja's are active within Nohr's borders so they should have picked up the state of the country during those missions. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Etrurian emperor