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If all skills and equipment were inheritable, who would be the most broken unit?


Jotari
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1 hour ago, Water Mage said:

How about a Reinhardt with Bold Fighter and Black Luna? Actually lots of ranged units would become amazing with Bold Fighter! And lots of dragons not named Grima would love Vengeful Fighter!

Dire Thunder is really what makes Reinhardt amazing, I doubt he'd be useful for anything if anyone else can use it. His stats aren't magnificent after all.

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

EDIT 3: If weapons aren't locked to their weapon types (but characters keep their original weapon types), shit like this also works:

Dark Robin (M) [+Atk, -Spd]
Dire Thunder
Swap
Black Luna
Death Blow 3
Bold Fighter 3
Ostia's Pulse
Quickened Pulse

I think we should regulate it to units keeping their weapon ranks to establish some sort of use to them. After all, Firesweeper Bow being a bow is the reason Cordelia can't use it, not it being a prf weapon.

Edited by Jotari
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31 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Dire Thunder is really what makes Reinhardt amazing, I doubt he'd be useful for anything if anyone else can use it. His stats aren't magnificent after all.

His stats enable multiple builds that don’t use Dire Thunder. Both blade and owl work well with his statline, for instance.

Edited by Vaximillian
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4 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

His stats enable multiple builds that don’t use Dire Thunder. Both blade and owl work well with his statline, for instance.

He's certainly not terrible, but the point is, there's a lot of units out there that are better once Dire Thunder is taken out of the equation. Though, I suppose, as you said, his biggest weakness, ie his speed, would be less of a problem with Bold Fighter and he does still have a horse.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

 

Dire Thunder is really what makes Reinhardt amazing, I doubt he'd be useful for anything if anyone else can use it. His stats aren't magnificent after all.

What makes it impressive is the fact that Brave weapons and Bold Fighter stack, which means guaranteed quads. Speed is irrelevant. Plus the +1 special cooldown charge means Moonbow will be actived incredibly fast. And being on a horse means it’s harder to escape from him, unless there’s trenches and forests. Maybe Valentine Lilina would be better if she had Dire Thunder since her atk is higher than Reinhardt’s, but it’s only a 3 point difference.

Brave Weapon and Bold Fighter is a terrifying combination. Why do you think Halloween Jakob is considered the best archer in the game? Even topping Brave Lyn!

Edited by Water Mage
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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

He's certainly not terrible, but the point is, there's a lot of units out there that are better once Dire Thunder is taken out of the equation. Though, I suppose, as you said, his biggest weakness, ie his speed, would be less of a problem with Bold Fighter and he does still have a horse.

@Vaximillian

It's not even that Blarblade and Blarowl "work" for his stat line. Reinhardt is the best non-armor Blarowl user in the game, having the best mixed bulk among blue tomes not named Lyn, low Spd, good Atk, and access to cavalry buffs.

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7 hours ago, mampfoid said:

No missuse of Sacae's Blessing? It's like Windsweep without precondition and without eliminating the follow-up attack. 

Firesweep-Bold Fighter says "Hi!" and destroys everything on Player Phase, so I am not sure if it is necessary to worry about Enemy Phase.

I guess if you still want to go for a dual phase build, you can pair Meisterschwert with Sacae's Blessing.

Edited by XRay
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2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You definitely do not want Dance on a broken offensive unit because it prevents the unit from being targeted by an ally's Dance.

Good point. I don't normally run dancers anyway, so I was trying to make the most OP single unit ever.

If we're talking about the most busted unit in an equally busted team, I'd probably also swap out Odd Atk Wave for Armour march as I'd have access to tactic buffs, like so:

Lute:
Dire Thunder
Draw Back
Black Luna
Death Blow 3
Bold Fighter 3
Armour march 3
Defence Tactic 3

Winter!Lissa:
Stout Tomahawk
Recover+
Bonfire
Laws of Sacae
Vengeful Fighter 3
Attack Tactic 3

Resistance Tactic 3

LA!Roy:
Fujin Yumi (Special refine)
Dance

Draconic Aura
Swift Sparrow 2
Dazzling Staff 3
Ostia's Pulse
Armoured Boots

Zelgius:
Dark Mysaltainn
Physic+
Black Luna
Distant Counter
Bushido
Speed Tactic 3
Quickened Pulse

Edited by The_antithesis
added healer support skills
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If I could have any such unit in my barracks, I don't think I'd be able to pass up something like Frederick or Horse Chrom with Great Flame and Bold Fighter with the QR seal to make a mixed-phase beast. Plus the usual trimmings like DC, Black Luna and Reposition of course.

Fujin Yumi on a horse could be pretty amusingly trollish.

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18 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

+10 Helpful Chrom [+Atk] (Falchion (Valentia) [unique], Death Blow 3, Dull Close 3, Attack +3) +6/6 (no Special) fails to kill Nowi by 6 HP, Corrin by 10 HP, and hypothetical Kana by 3 HP when they are running +10 [+Atk] (Lightning Breath+ [Def], Triangle Adept 3, Quick Riposte 3, Close Def 3). Chrom fails to double Corrin or Kana and dies to Nowi's first counterattack (Fortify Cavalry fixes that).

With Moonbow or Glimmer, he grabs the kills on Nowi and Kana, but fails to take down +10 Corrin (F) [+Def] (Lightning Breath+ [Def], Triangle Adept 3, Guard 3, Quick Riposte 3) by 4 HP. And that's of course assuming that the opponent isn't running Ward Dragons or Drive Def (or Water Breath+).

Considering that

+10 Alm [+Atk] (Falchion [unique], Moonbow, Death Blow 3, Cancel Affinity 3, Heavy Blade 3) +6/0/0/0

Already kills everything short of

+10 Corrin (F) [+Def] (Water Breath+ [Def], Steady Breath, Guard 3, Quick Riposte 3) +0/0/6/6

who survives by only 4 HP, Chrom will do just fine with Cancel Affinity 3 since I can actually imagine Corrin running the Triangle Adept build listed above, but not so much the Water Breath build.

Horse buffs.  Don't leave home without them.  Thank goodness Atk Tactic exists, so I can mimic them on foot units.

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1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

I already factored those in.

Oh.  Close Def.  That's something I don't assume, since I usually see Distant Def instead (don't ask, I'm not the one making those teams).

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27 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Horse buffs.  Don't leave home without them.  Thank goodness Atk Tactic exists, so I can mimic them on foot units.

If you're fully buffing horses, wouldn't switching to -blade tomes be better for damage?

 

DC dragons won't have the stats to fight a -blade tome Cavalry Chrom properly, and the non-DC dragons just get owned by a Bold Fighter Galeforce -Bladetome set. (First combat gets +4 charge, second combat activates Galeforce, letting the horse retreat and reposition the dancer further back). Res is Chrom's weaker stat anyway, so it's not like the switch to being 2-ranged hurts him defensively.

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50 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

If you're fully buffing horses, wouldn't switching to -blade tomes be better for damage?

 

DC dragons won't have the stats to fight a -blade tome Cavalry Chrom properly, and the non-DC dragons just get owned by a Bold Fighter Galeforce -Bladetome set. (First combat gets +4 charge, second combat activates Galeforce, letting the horse retreat and reposition the dancer further back). Res is Chrom's weaker stat anyway, so it's not like the switch to being 2-ranged hurts him defensively.

Hmmm.

If we REALLY crank that to eleven, let's grab the unit with THE highest attack stat - either +Atk M!Grima or that new Hector. . .I'm going with Hector because he fits better. :P:

If I've also done my math right, -blade's highest stat bonus is 24.  Divine Naga against a dragon?  29, before buffs, and it neutralizes enemy buffs.  So if we're going for the ultimate dragon-killer, that would be Marquess Hector with Divine Naga, Brazen Atk/Def (let's. . .pretend that he's somehow in that range), and Cancel Affinity (since both Tikis are pretty good at surviving that with TA and the DD3 seal).

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7 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Hmmm.

If we REALLY crank that to eleven, let's grab the unit with THE highest attack stat - either +Atk M!Grima or that new Hector. . .I'm going with Hector because he fits better. :P:

If I've also done my math right, -blade's highest stat bonus is 24.  Divine Naga against a dragon?  29, before buffs, and it neutralizes enemy buffs.  So if we're going for the ultimate dragon-killer, that would be Marquess Hector with Divine Naga, Brazen Atk/Def (let's. . .pretend that he's somehow in that range), and Cancel Affinity (since both Tikis are pretty good at surviving that with TA and the DD3 seal).

Well, *technically* you could run a Defiant skill to get +25 total to the Bladetome bonus, not that anyone would. :P

(Or 28 if you're hit by Seal to all stats then use Harsh Command?)

Edited by Humanoid
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Just now, Ice Dragon said:

Jotari said above that we should keep weapons locked to their weapon type, but...

If you need a Litrblade but are restricted to swords, there's always Laevateinn.

Honestly we should've had -blade effects on melee weapons to begin with. Ranged units had no business having better than melee BST. (Let's face it, a -blade tome is basically a 30 MT weapon or thereabouts, which is way too much.)

 

It would've opened the flood gates for an armor emblem meta---because there is, in fact, a point where mobility stops mattering given enough BST---but armor emblem is pretty reasonable to face, even with ridiculous stats, as long as you bring even a single hard counter.

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9 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Jotari said above that we should keep weapons locked to their weapon type, but...

If you need a Litrblade but are restricted to swords, there's always Laevateinn.

I'm a TC, not an arbitrator, that's just my opinion. If people are having fun talking about putting tomes on Hector, then go ahead.

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Linde with Celica's tome and Arvis' Recovery Ring is also pretty note worthy.

Hardin with Flame Siegmund is also pretty potent though probably not as much as Winter Chrom with Berserk Armads or KE! Chrom / Fallen Robin M with Dire Thunder.

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@Ice Dragon Correct me if im wrong, but assuming we bracket each special as Tier, and 1 Wrath/Wrathlike/killer effect is calculated as +1 Tier, Nameless Blade would be 1 tier worse than B-Armads right?

 

e.g

Berserk Armads - Tier +3 from Killer, and Wrath

Nameless - Tier +2 from Killer and Bushido

so would you say its the second best after Berserk Armads or is there other stuff that comes to mind?

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Honestly, Falchions are the highest tiered weapons. Renewal, effectiveness, and a refine option. (Even the stat refines are amazing, +5 hp, +3 speed or whatever, is nothing to sneeze at.)

 

Beserk Armads is pretty typical for a post-refine Prf. Mystletainn has killer effect, fury 3, and 3 hp.

 

Wrath happens to be extremely good at getting kill counts, but part of that is because, back when I last checked, the calculators don't remember to check for the 75% hp requirement before adding the +10 damage to specials. (I'm not sure if they fixed it by now, though. Edit: I checked on Kagero Chart, looks like they check hp now.)

Edit: Although I'm not too sure on whether Beserk Armads has a wrath effect or a wo dao effect. I tend to pay as little attention as possible to my armors.

Double Edit: Kagero Chart thinks Berserk Armads has wrath effect. (i.e. 75% hp requirement for the bonus +10 dmg on special proc)

Edited by DehNutCase
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20 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

@Ice Dragon Correct me if im wrong, but assuming we bracket each special as Tier, and 1 Wrath/Wrathlike/killer effect is calculated as +1 Tier, Nameless Blade would be 1 tier worse than B-Armads right?

Yes. Berserk Armads is effectively Slaying + Bushido + delayed Slaying. Nameless Blade and Hauteclere are Slaying + Bushido.

 

20 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

so would you say its the second best after Berserk Armads or is there other stuff that comes to mind?

Vassal's Blade has stronger first-round performance, but is a sliver weaker afterwards.

The only other weapons that come to mind are Valentian Falchion, Laevateinn, and Niu.

 

20 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Honestly, Falchions are the highest tiered weapons. Renewal, effectiveness, and a refine option. (Even the stat refines are amazing, +5 hp, +3 speed or whatever, is nothing to sneeze at.)

Renewal doesn't help with combat at all, and it costs the Assist slot to make it a support skill. It's pretty much a worse variant of Desperation.

Dragon effectiveness is also not particularly amazing. It helps with some of the toughest units in the game, but that pool of units isn't all that big, especially considering the existence of weapons with both cavalry and armor effectiveness.

Valentian Falchion is the only Falchion that's really worth looking at if weapons had their inheritance restrictions lifted.

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8 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Renewal doesn't help with combat at all, and it costs the Assist slot to make it a support skill. It's pretty much a worse variant of Desperation.

Dragon effectiveness is also not particularly amazing. It helps with some of the toughest units in the game, but that pool of units isn't all that big, especially considering the existence of weapons with both cavalry and armor effectiveness.

Valentian Falchion is the only Falchion that's really worth looking at if weapons had their inheritance restrictions lifted.

I mean, it depends on how good you are at running away. Being able to completely reset fights is pretty damn good. (It's worse than desperation in most circumstances, but there are oddball cases like Vantage Sword Reinhardt or Ares who might OHKO your desperation guy. Cordelia occasionally runs into this issue because I run Savage Blow on her.)

Fair about the dragon effectiveness, but better than nothing is better than nothing.

Falchion also has the +5 hp, +other stat option, don't forget. (Honestly that's the main reason I started looking at Falchions. Lucina's bulk is just barely good enough that she can probably run a +stat Falchion set and completely takeover Selena's job.)

Someone like W!Lissa or W!Chrom can probably leverage their excellent mixed bulk to run a Wary Falchion set where they just sit there and be indestructible while Renewal auto-wins the attrition war for them.

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