The Worst Designed Map In The Series

[Jotari]

What's the worst deigned map in the series? If you'd played Thracia 776, then your mind would probably jump to Chapter 24x, aka the one with the trap tiles and endless Dark Mages that attack you from the Shadows. While that chapter is probably the most frustrating to play in the entire series, I don't think it's the worst designed. I think this one is.

Looks pretty innocuous, right. If you've never played it, you might think it's just obtuse with how long it would take to trek to the throne. But that's not what's poorly designed about this chapter, what's badly designed is the fact that the player is completely encouraged not to play it. It's the most warp skippable chapter in the entire series. First off, the boss is recruitable, and in recruiting him it causes every enemy to flee the map. So it's incredibly easy to warp skip. But many seize maps are, the next big thing that makes it basically foolish to play legitimately is Tina, another recruitable character. She has an extremely valuable prf staff called the Thief staff, which can let you steal an item from, essentially, any unit in the game from anywhere on the map. It's mad useful as you might imagine, but it only has four uses, and she will immediately try to waste it by using it against you in the chapter. If you want to keep the thief staff intact, you basically have to recruit her on the first turn (which you have to do with a cleric, in the room where the boss is). It also has a recruitable enemy unit in the middle of one of those corridors who can only be recruited after you recruit the boss, so good luck trying to recruit him by just walking through the map, as he's standing directly in your way and there's no way around him. Overall it's a memorable chapter as it gives you four new units including this amazing thief staff and the best thief in the game, it also lets one of your characters promote to a dancer, but absolutely everything about its design just encourages it not to be played.

Another funny thing is that it's the only map in the series (I think) where you fight enemy dancers that legitimately refresh enemies. Which considering this is also fog of war (because that's always fun) makes predicting enemy attacks really difficult (at least, I expect it would based on playing against enemy dancers in Heroes, I've never actually done this map legitimately). The last thing to mention is that after 25 turns (and no good map should take 25 turns to beat unless it's like a Genealogy Map) you can get a Knight's Crest by stealing from a dancer that appears. Considering you've likely already cleared the map by recruiting the boss, this basically means just sitting there ending your turns over twenty times. Although I guess there are quite a few chests around that you can kill time going after. Oh, and that dancer only appears if you haven't attacked any other dancers, yet another encouragement to just recruit the boss and make them all flee. EDIT: I've been informed that yet another dancer appears under the same condition on Turn 30 with a Warp Staff, which is way more egregious.

So yeah, not the worst map at all to play, as it's piss easy, but the absolutely worst designed map in the series IMO, as it basically could have been replaced by a load of cutscnees. Unless... it was designed in a meta sense, to basically encourage players to warp skip so they could be prepared for some of the later maps...Which if that's the case it's actually genius and one of the best designed maps in the game.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Jotari

[MacLovin]

it's actually devious at how it makes you desire to warpskip.

 

I tried playing this map blind first. Fuck that.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Sounds like if they fixed Tina's Thief Staff use, things would be significantly better. Could still cheese via Perne warp recruitment, but you wouldn't have to put up with having a rare staff you'd want to use broken by an enemy. It wouldn't take a lot to fix the Thief Staff either, just invent a new chest and shove it in there right next to her. 

And speaking of rare staffs breaking on enemy get to this chapter in the first place, don't you have to capture and recruit a guy packing Sleep? Call him the warm up for this?

Also, just to say what is actually in those chests, I count a Knight Crest, a Dracoshield (Shield Ring- same thing), and a Charge manual.

By the way, a different reinforcement Dancer from the Knight Crest one packs a Warp Staff. So if you burn two uses- one on Safy and another on Lara, you get a net Warp gain of +1 use, at worse, if you need to spend another on getting Troude, then your Warp consumption is neutral here. They appear on turn 30 to be precise.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer

[Jotari]

On 7/6/2018 at 11:54 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

By the way, a different reinforcement Dancer from the Knight Crest one packs a Warp Staff. So if you burn two uses- one on Safy and another on Lara, you get a net Warp gain of +1 use, at worse, if you need to spend another on getting Troude, then your Warp consumption is neutral here.

That sounds like it absolutely was intentionally designed to get the player practiced at warp skipping.

Regarding Tina, I'm sure her AI could just be altered to not use the Thief Staff as an enemy. Although, if we're talking a Thracia remake, I'd rather Pahn gave it to her in a Base Convo or something.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Jotari

[UNLEASH IT]

It's like Kaga knew he was full of shit so he gave you stuff to cheese the game with

[Shoblongoo]

Quite a few contenders from Revelations, but for the absolute worst in the series? Gotta give it to:

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Quite a few contenders from Revelations, but for the absolute worst in the series? Gotta give it to:

Yeah, not sure what they were thinking with that one. All your enemies are incapacitated, this is sure to be challenging! And while it's not relevant to map design, it caps off with the most pointless death in the series.

21 minutes ago, UNLEASH IT said:

It's like Kaga knew he was full of shit so he gave you stuff to cheese the game with

That's not an inaccurate description of Thracia.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Jotari

[sinicaphaulls]

I was just going to pop in and state the obvious: 90% of Valla maps.There's some that I think are actually neat is Ch. 18. Aside from that I dislike almost all of them.

[Shadow Mir]

24x in Thracia. It ain't even a contest.

[Sasori]

I never had any problem with the ice bomb map myself. It was a bit of a chore to go through, but I remember being a bit bored by it. Every block would only reveal 1 one or 2 enemies at a time making them easy to deal with. I can agree that its a badly designed map, but it being so easy makes me feel its not the worst designed map in the series.

I'm going to say Conquest chapter 25. Those spy shuriken ninja's that can shave of 40% hp every hit alone makes the entire map feel very cheap. 

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Sasori

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Shoblongoo said:

Quite a few contenders from Revelations, but for the absolute worst in the series? Gotta give it to:

TBF, while that might be badly designed, I think it falls well short of being in contention for worst designed map in the series - Thracia has 24x, which makes this, and pretty much all of Revelation's maps, look amazing in comparison.

[Shoblongoo]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

TBF, while that might be badly designed, I think it falls well short of being in contention for worst designed map in the series - Thracia has 24x, which makes this, and pretty much all of Revelation's maps, look amazing in comparison.

Nahhhhhhhhh.

I'll take pain-in-the-ass over snoozefest any day of the week.

spy shuriken ninja's that can shave off 40% per hit??? Brilliant. Lets come up with a strategy to deal with it or die in the attempt--the game is actually making me think through my plays and keeping me engaged. Love it.

The worst offense a map can commit is inducing boredom. 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[Nobody]

IMO the worst designed map in the series is Geoffrey's Charge. It's everything wrong a map can be: easy, boring, slow and trivial. You just have to drag Geoffrey's to the boss, while enduring 5 minute long enemy+allied phases. The ONLY challenge in the chapter is enduring how fucking slow it is.

I don't know how anyone thought designing that map would be a good idea.

[Shadow Mir]

30 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Nahhhhhhhhh.

I'll take pain-in-the-ass over snoozefest any day of the week.

spy shuriken ninja's that can shave of 40% per hit??? Brilliant. Lets come up with a strategy to deal with it or die in the attempt--the game is actually making me think through my plays and keeping me engaged. Love it.

The worst offense a map can commit is inducing boredom. 

If I thought being boring was one of the worst offenses a map could commit, I'd have mentioned Genealogy, where literally every map is boredom inducing.

[Brave Lance]

The bridge chapter (3-11) in Radiant Dawn. The combination of pitfalls and shine barriers makes advancing across the bridge grueling, and the chapter itself has barely any story significance. 

[NinjaMonkey]

Inigo's Paralogue gets my vote.

 

[Kruggov]

Swamp maps in Gaiden/SoV. Slows everything to a crawl - check. Damages you every turn - check. Usually filled with cantors - check. ESPECIALLY the map where you fight that Necrodragon summoning Cantor - map is quite long, so even Palla/Catria/Est can't get to him in one turn, and after that is was literally swimming in necrodragons, which he kept summoning every turn. At least the whole thing resulted in a tof of EXP for everyone, but it was not fun.

For that same reason, swamp maps in TRS, except they are even bigger, and filled to the brim with "I don't care, I just double you no matter who you are" mogalls or teleporting witches, or siege tomes... you get the gist.

Finally fuck TRS chapter 26B, and that fkin covered-up room with Arbalest-using snipers. I swear, EVERYONE loses someone there, as you won't even know they are there until they start shooting. And you can't even shoot back until you reach the door and open it, and by the time you do, you're a pincushion already.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Nahhhhhhhhh.

I'll take pain-in-the-ass over snoozefest any day of the week.

spy shuriken ninja's that can shave off 40% per hit??? Brilliant. Lets come up with a strategy to deal with it or die in the attempt--the game is actually making me think through my plays and keeping me engaged. Love it.

The worst offense a map can commit is inducing boredom. 

That's exactly what I meant when I made the thread.  Dandelion, the map in the OP, isn't a bad map to play. In fact, it's even somewhat fun getting new items and seeing a thief promote to a dancer. But it is a badly designed map because it basically doesn't exist as a map.  The ice map is similar. Chapter 24x and Ryoma's ninja spam, as ridiculously obnoxious as they are, at least still exist and require effort to play (although the fact that killing Ryoma is far easier than actually disabling the traps and he has a chance of suddenly killing you with astra once the traps are disabled is pretty shit)

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

That's exactly what I meant when I made the thread.  Dandelion, the map in the OP, isn't a bad map to play. In fact, it's even somewhat fun getting new items and seeing a thief promote to a dancer. But it is a badly designed map because it basically doesn't exist as a map.  The ice map is similar. Chapter 24x and Ryoma's ninja spam, as ridiculously obnoxious as they are, at least still exist and require effort to play (although the fact that killing Ryoma is far easier than actually disabling the traps and he has a chance of suddenly killing you with astra once the traps are disabled is pretty shit)

Then I'd have to think about the criteria here.

As bad as 12x can be in some areas, and as bad as 24x is with the Warp tiles, they're engaging maps.

FE1, FE2 and Awakening don't get this caveat as a whole. These are three games that give no real attempt to engage you in the maps. Which is why, as much as I actually do like SoV, I'd give the nod to... Any of the swamp maps in that game. Outside of the final map, none of them are engaging in the slightest. And they exist purposefully to slow you down, and there's nothing to do in those maps besides rout the enemies, which the game actively hinders you in doing. 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Slumber

[qwernst]

I didn't like Disturbance In Agustria because of all the backtracking.

[MagicCanonBalls]

The pirate Isles in Thracia and the bridge map with pitfall in Radiant dawn.

Special mention is FE4, as the prologue itself already bored me. Revelation has its fair share of bad maps too (snow map and valla maps), but at least the cast is much more likeable and the gameplay is better.

Edited July 7, 2018 by MagicCanonBalls

[Re: The weirdo.]

8 minutes ago, MagicCanonBalls said:

but at least the cast is much more likeable and the gameplay is better.

lol what you on. not tryna dump on your opinion but i heavily dislike the cast of fates. there are a few gems, and apparently the localization killed almost every character, so could you clarify what you mean by cast being more likeable? 

also, revelation has just awful gameplay my guy. like the whole thing. least, thats what i think.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, MagicCanonBalls said:

The pirate Isles in Thracia and the bridge map with pitfall in Radiant dawn.

Special mention is FE4, as the prologue itself already bored me. Revelation has its fair share of bad maps too (snow map and valla maps), but at least the cast is much more likeable and the gameplay is better.

 

1 minute ago, (s)ad touch said:

lol what you on. not tryna dump on your opinion but i heavily dislike the cast of fates. there are a few gems, and apparently the localization killed almost every character, so could you clarify what you mean by cast being more likeable? 

also, revelation has just awful gameplay my guy. like the whole thing. least, thats what i think.

Cast likeability has nothing to do with map design one way or the other 

[Re: The weirdo.]

@Jotari no i know that, was just disagreeing with him.

[MagicCanonBalls]

38 minutes ago, (s)ad touch said:

lol what you on. not tryna dump on your opinion but i heavily dislike the cast of fates. there are a few gems, and apparently the localization killed almost every character, so could you clarify what you mean by cast being more likeable? 

also, revelation has just awful gameplay my guy. like the whole thing. least, thats what i think.

I like the royal siblings.

32 minutes ago, Jotari said:

 

Cast likeability has nothing to do with map design one way or the other 

I apologize if it seems like I am derailing from the topic. I am just trying to say that even though certain maps are awful but there are other minor things that make it less struggling to play through from a personal experience.

Edited July 7, 2018 by MagicCanonBalls
Cut out explanation on why I like fates better because it's irrelevant to this topic