by the way, is free will a lie? (philoso-poll)

[Re: The weirdo.]

you couldn't not vote!

anyway, I've become interested in philosophy as of late, so alongside some cynicism, i decided i wanted to ask the community known for being aware that everything IN GAME is pre-determined by RNG, about free will!

for irony's sake.

[expshare]

Here is a simple argument for starters.

1. Humans are either probabilistic systems or deterministic systems.

2. A probabilistic system cannot have free will.

3. A deterministic system cannot have free will.

4. Therefore humans do not have free will.

[Re: The weirdo.]

@expshare However, many arguments for free will tend to include the idea of an "Agent", which is defined by a being with free will.

of course this is fallacious, as in that way, free will is internally defined by the idea of itself, but it is an argument nonetheless that needs to be addressed and possibly criticised

food for thought

Edited July 14, 2018 by (s)ad touch

[eclipse]

If it's for irony's sake, this is being moved to General.

[expshare]

I'm okay with agent being defined as a being with free will, so long as I can then retort that humans must then simply not be agents by that definition.

Some people argue that free will is compatible with determinism. I would say in that case then it depends on the person's definition of free will, but generally speaking I don't agree with the direction that compatibilism goes in.

Edited July 14, 2018 by expshare

[Re: The weirdo.]

3 minutes ago, expshare said:

I'm okay with agent being defined as a being with free will, so long as I can then retort that humans must then simply not be agents by that definition.

good succinct response

[indigoasis]

I guess it depends on how you look at it. The way I see it, humans have free will, but fate is pre-determined. Think of it like a "Choose your own adventure" book where, no matter what choices you make, the ending is always the same. A better example would be in a video game where, no matter what decisions you make, the ending is the same. I think a decent example would be in Pokemon Black and White, where at one point in the game, N asks you a question, and the player's response will affect N's opinion of the player. IIRC, that exchange happens at the end of Chargestone Cave.

If you haven't played Black and White to the end, quick spoiler alert.

Spoiler

By the end of the game, the ending is the same, but with slightly altered dialogue, depending on how the player responded to N's question. After that, N flies off into the sunset on Zekrom/Reshiram and is supposedly never seen again. So in short, it's basically the same ending no matter what you decide.

However, there is one counter-argument that comes to mind, and that's the whole theory of the Butterfly Effect, but that should be discussed in a separate thread. Sorry for the lengthy response, I was just sharing my thoughts.

[Chopper...]

Well, then... I suppose you can excuse my lexicon, which is limited because English is not my first language. My opinion on the matter is very simple: that it is because of free will that there are so many things wrong all over the globe, or at least in regards to our society. And I don't consider it something good or bad, just the way it is.

[Shoblongoo]

Consider the following (an old argument I made back in a philosophy of religion class that made for an A+ paper, a befuddled professor, and a bunch of pissed-off theist classmates)
_________

1)  If an almighty and all-knowing god exists, said god knows and has always known every decision that has ever been made + every outcome that will ever be reached. Said god would have known this since the beginning of time.

2) This includes every decision you have ever made in your entire life. Ages upon ages upon ages before you were born, God knew the outcome of every choice you would ever make.  

3)  It is impossible for you to make any choice that an all-knowing god does not expect you to make and did not already know was going to be made at the dawn of time, because if you "surprise" god by making any other choice than the one he predetermined you were going to make at the dawn of time--a choice he does not know or at any point in time did not know you were going to make and did not expect--then god is not all-knowing. 

4) True freewill cannot exist if all "choices" have been predetermined, and you cannot actually choose to think or behave in a manner that it has already been predetermined you are going to think and behave. 

5) You cannot choose to think or behave in a manner that it has not already been predetermined you are going to think and behave if God exists and is all-knowing.

6) Ergo, it is impossible for true freewill to exist if an almighty and all-knowing god exists. 

7) Ergo, true freewill exists if-and-only if there is no god.

---------

...how about that?

Sound reasoning? 



 

Edited August 30, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[blah the Prussian]

But can't God see the possible outcomes of all our possible choices? For example, God knows what will result from me choosing to stop procrastinating on what I need to do while writing this, and God knows what will happen if I continue to write this post instead of doing what I need to be doing. Shouldn't that clear up the contradiction?

Anyway, I think there's way less free will than people think. The vast majority of people are prisoners of their environment or cultures. It takes a truly exceptional individual to really break free of the mould society has set for them.

[Shoblongoo]

1 hour ago, blah the Prussian said:

But can't God see the possible outcomes of all our possible choices? For example, God knows what will result from me choosing to stop procrastinating on what I need to do while writing this.

Yes 

1 hour ago, blah the Prussian said:

 Shouldn't that clear up the contradiction?

No--because an all-knowing God would have always known that you were going to make that post instead of choosing to stop procrastinating. Ergo, you never actually could have chosen to not make that post and stop procrastinating. The supposed "freewill" that could have allowed you to make that choice was a lie and an illusion.

...unless multiverse theory is real...

The perfect counter to my argument that neither my professor nor my theistic classmates ever made--and I have absolutely no answer to this; it counters my previous argument completely--is the argument fails if the true nature of reality is that it is a mutliverse--not a universe--where every possible decision is being made and every possible consequence is being played out infinite-times-over in every alternate universe. Such that the true nature of "all-knowing" would not just be complete knowledge of our universe, but complete knowledge of every conceivable alternate universe.

 (More kids would probably pick up that today; I made this argument like 3 years before Rick & Morty was a thing)

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[blah the Prussian]

2 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Yes 

No--because an all-knowing God would have always known that you were going to make that post instead of choosing to stop procrastinating. Ergo, you never actually could have chosen to not make that post and stop procrastinating. The supposed "freewill" that could have allowed you to make that choice was a lie and an illusion.

...unless multiverse theory is real...

The perfect counter to my argument that neither my professor nor my theistic classmates ever made--and I have absolutely no answer to this; it counters my previous argument completely--is the argument fails if the true nature of reality is that it is a mutliverse--not a universe--where every possible decision is being made and every possible consequence is being played out infinite-times-over in every alternate universe. Such that the true nature of "all-knowing" would not just be complete knowledge of our universe, but complete knowledge of every conceivable alternate universe.

 (More kids would probably pick up that today; I made this argument like 3 years before Rick & Morty was a thing)

 

Well, I personally believe in multiverse theory if only so I can one day go to a universe where the French Revolution was crushed faster. But yeah, I see what you're saying.

[Tediz64]

12 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

1)  If an almighty and all-knowing god exists

7) Ergo, true freewill exists if-and-only if there is no god.

---------

...how about that?

Sound reasoning? 



 

But when doing research or answering questions you can only go based off what is known and not use speculation. So that "if" isn't even a use-able or meaningful contribution to this discussion. 

 

That's like asking if a business is going to succeed and someone says "sure it will. If the Russians or Chinese don't nuke us".

In order to answer that question you actually have to look at tangible facts and then use that information to determine the answer. Not speculate something you neither have control over or is just a "if". If they decide to bomb us, oh well. Your business succeeding or failing wasn't based off that much less was something beyond your control. Same as using God in questions and going "but this theory" and it not even something you can ascertain or definitively use to base your answer/decision.

I hope I was clear. I kinda feel like someone reading this will get confused at what/how I'm trying to say this. 

[Tetragrammaton]

52 minutes ago, Tediz64 said:

That's like asking if a business is going to succeed and someone says "sure it will. If the Russians or Chinese don't nuke us".

Russian and Chinese cannot be compared to the level of an all knowing god.

[Tediz64]

1 hour ago, hanhnn said:

Russian and Chinese cannot be compared to the level of an all knowing god.

...that isn't my point though. Did you understand what I was saying? Let's see if I can squeeze it into one sentence.

Your answer can't be based off speculations or things you don't even have control over, it should only be on tangible facts and known elements. 

Any contributions to this discussion should exclude God, and only cover what we can ascertain and know definitively. 

[DiogoJorge]

Free-will exists. But whatever one believes they have free-will and are wrong about it, it's another matter.

 

Good and Evil exists, so free-will exists by default, if it didn't exist, there would be no Good and Evil.

Edited August 31, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Jotari]

16 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Yes 

No--because an all-knowing God would have always known that you were going to make that post instead of choosing to stop procrastinating. Ergo, you never actually could have chosen to not make that post and stop procrastinating. The supposed "freewill" that could have allowed you to make that choice was a lie and an illusion.

...unless multiverse theory is real...

The perfect counter to my argument that neither my professor nor my theistic classmates ever made--and I have absolutely no answer to this; it counters my previous argument completely--is the argument fails if the true nature of reality is that it is a mutliverse--not a universe--where every possible decision is being made and every possible consequence is being played out infinite-times-over in every alternate universe. Such that the true nature of "all-knowing" would not just be complete knowledge of our universe, but complete knowledge of every conceivable alternate universe.

 (More kids would probably pick up that today; I made this argument like 3 years before Rick & Morty was a thing)

 

But knowing the result of a decision doesn't make it any less of a decision. If god knows when I'm going to stop procrastinating, then it's still my decision to stop procrastinating. Take something less theological than god and instead consider a police sting operation. The police know a criminal is going to arrive at a place at a certain time and a certain date to commit a crime. The criminal still has the choice to go there or not regardless of the police's presence. The police knowing the criminal will go there has no bearing on their actual decision to go there. Upon getting arrested the criminal can't claim they were forced to go without their free will there because the police predicted they would (unless the criminal only committed the crime specifically because the police created favorable factors for it, that's entrapment which is something else completely). The police predicted it because they knew the criminals desires and predilections, just as much as an all knowing god knows everything about an individual's desires and predilections.

3 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Free-will exists. But whatever one believes they have free-will and are wrong about it, it's another matter.

 

Good and Evil exists, so free-will exists by default, if it didn't exist, there would be no Good and Evil.

How do you know Good and Evil exist?

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Jotari

[Tryhard]

19 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

7) Ergo, true freewill exists if-and-only if there is no god.

Setting aside the fact that quite a few non theists believe in determinism as opposed to free will (i.e it's not a wholly theist idea), it doesn't necessary mean all interpretations of god(s) would hold this.

For example, a god that does not intervene such as a Deist interpretation. They may or may not believe in the idea that there is a divine plan that has been predetermined.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Edgelord

[DiogoJorge]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

But knowing the result of a decision doesn't make it any less of a decision. If god knows when I'm going to stop procrastinating, then it's still my decision to stop procrastinating. Take something less theological than god and instead consider a police sting operation. The police know a criminal is going to arrive at a place at a certain time and a certain date to commit a crime. The criminal still has the choice to go there or not regardless of the police's presence. The police knowing the criminal will go there has no bearing on their actual decision to go there. Upon getting arrested the criminal can't claim they were forced to go without their free will there because the police predicted they would (unless the criminal only committed the crime specifically because the police created favorable factors for it, that's entrapment which is something else completely). The police predicted it because they knew the criminals desires and predilections, just as much as an all knowing god knows everything about an individual's desires and predilections.

How do you know Good and Evil exist?

 

Agreed with the above part, in the end, one's movements and actions are dictated by our own actions. Unless the person is brainwashed or under mind control, one always has free will.

Terrorists, Hitler... there's no shortage of evil people.

As for good, look no farther than those who put aside their own interests to help others.

Edited August 31, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Jotari]

30 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Agreed with the above part, in the end, one's movements and actions are dictated by our own actions. Unless the person is brainwashed or under mind control, one always has free will.

Terrorists, Hitler... there's no shortage of evil people.

As for good, look no farther than those who put aside their own interests to help others.

But for all you know those people, good or bad, were working without free will. You can't use the existence of good and evil to prove the existence of free will, without proving that good and evil exist which you can only do with proof of free will. It's like a self perpetuating circle.

Yes. I'm arguing both sides of the debate here with my separate comments.

[DiogoJorge]

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

But for all you know those people, good or bad, were working without free will. You can't use the existence of good and evil to prove the existence of free will, without proving that good and evil exist which you can only do with proof of free will. It's like a self perpetuating circle.

Yes. I'm arguing both sides of the debate here with my separate comments.

If they did it by being forced, then the ones being good wouldn't be good, and the ones doing evil would still be evil all the same, unless they were mindcontrolled. In order for someone to be good, they would have to do good deeds out of their own will.  

Free will exists, since we do get to choose what to do, like for instance, me choosing to post here, nobody forced me to do so.

Edited September 1, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Truebladee]

Before I write a huge comment about this interesting topic, I'll say

 

On 15-7-2018 at 3:06 AM, indigospace said:

The way I see it, humans have free will, but fate is pre-determined.

 

I agree with this.

 

[Light Strategist]

free will
noun
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
adjective
(especially of a donation) voluntary.

 

fate/feɪt/
noun
the development of events outside a person's control, regarded as predetermined by a supernatural power.
the three goddesses who preside over the birth and life of humans. Each person was thought of as a spindle, around which the three Fates (Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos) would spin the thread of human destiny.
verb
be destined to happen, turn out, or act in a particular way.

 

What I'm getting here is that Fate prevents free will. But the thing about this is that the concept of Fate would have lined up scenarios of choice in which we believe we're making a choice but are instead following a set path. In that respect, the path is already chosen before the one making the choice actually chooses. The conflicting feelings and resulting choices are predetermined just as much as the outcomes.

With that in mind, I see it like Fire Emblem Fates. All of the choices only affect whichever side you're with but the path itself is set in stone. However the first time you play the game, and make that choice yourself, you were predestined to do it based on your personality which has been constantly conditioned since you were born.

However I also feel that Multiverse Theory still fits the topic. What if I were a little more aggressive? What if I were more willing to do...? They're alternative outcomes based on the idea of choice. Whether or not we have one doesn't really matter as sooner or later, something will happen to change it. 

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

If they did it by being forced, then the ones being good wouldn't be good, and the ones doing evil would still be evil all the same, unless they were mindcontrolled. In order for someone to be good, they would have to do good deeds out of their own will.  

Free will exists, since we do get to choose what to do, like for instance, me choosing to post here, nobody forced me to do so.

How do you know your choice to post here was actually free though? Nobody argues that we appear to have free will and thus we have moral responsibilities that are associated with free will (which does make the entire question completely irrelevant and moot as the largest number of people in that poll seem to agree; the idea that we have free will simply because we think we do is also a perspective with merit), but how do you prove you had any choice in the matter and legitimately could have done something different? Perhaps we're identical to NPCs in games, going about set patterns and based on stimuli without any inherent control or awareness of the cause for those actions.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Jotari

[DiogoJorge]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

How do you know your choice to post here was actually free though? Nobody argues that we appear to have free will and thus we have moral responsibilities that are associated with free will (which does make the entire question completely irrelevant and moot as the largest number of people in that poll seem to agree; the idea that we have free will simply because we think we do is also a perspective with merit), but how do you prove you had any choice in the matter and legitimately could have done something different? Perhaps we're identical to NPCs in games, going about set patterns and based on stimuli without any inherent control or awareness of the cause for those actions.

I don't have to prove it. My mind is my own, I'm not being forced, as I know for sure what I'm thinking and feeling. It's still my choice even if I had to follow a pattern, specially since I can break rules if I want to, if needed.