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by the way, is free will a lie? (philoso-poll)


Re: The weirdo.
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Is free will a lie?  

35 members have voted

  1. 1. Is it a lie?

    • yes
      12
    • no
      23
  2. 2. does it matter either way?

    • yes
      12
    • no
      23


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41 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

I don't have to prove it. My mind is my own, I'm not being forced, as I know for sure what I'm thinking and feeling. It's still my choice even if I had to follow a pattern, specially since I can break rules if I want to, if needed.

Well you think you can break rules, but you don't know what the rules are. It's just as possible that you can't. You'll never truly know as you can't observe yourself making two different decisions simultaneously at the same point in time. You're right though, you don't have to prove. Ultimately none of us have to do anything. Except die. We're all going to do that one way or the other.

Edited by Jotari
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20 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well you think you can break rules, but you don't know what the rules are. It's just as possible that you can't. You'll never truly know as you can't observe yourself making two different decisions simultaneously at the same point in time. You're right though, you don't have to prove. Ultimately none of us have to do anything. Except die. We're all going to do that one way or the other.

And yet here you are questioning it. If you can question it, then you have free will. Even if there was some force that could control us, the fact we can even question it, means that no hold is being put on us.

Dying isn't  "doing" something, is something that happens by itself.

Honestly, if we are going the whole "maybe everything you decide and think is all part of the control plan" route, then that means that whatever that "force" of yours is, either is insane and convulated or not doing a good job at it, or not actually bothering to control us at all.

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1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

And yet here you are questioning it. If you can question it, then you have free will. Even if there was some force that could control us, the fact we can even question it, means that no hold is being put on us.

Under what logic can you determine that? You're simply stating A leads to B without explaining why. Why does questioning it mean I have it? This isn't Cogito, ergo sum.

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

Honestly, if we are going the whole "maybe everything you decide and think is all part of the control plan" route, then that means that whatever that "force" of yours is, either is insane and convulated or not doing a good job at it, or not actually bothering to control us at all.

1. Insane. By what definition? How can a nonthinking force like destiny or, the less spiritual version, the happenstance of placement of all atoms moving in set patterns governed by the laws of physics even qualify such a human concept?

2. Convoluted. Well complex would be more accurate, but yeah, of course the predestination of the entirety of existence would be complex. It is the entirety of existence after all.

3. Not doing a good job at it. Once again, by what metric? What is considered a good job? That's like saying gravity is doing a good or bad job. It isn't, it's just being gravity. If we have no free will, then it means we are just like gravity, working under certain circumstances to cause certain effects.

4. Not Actually bothering to control us at all. Well this doesn't make sense as it's a binary situation. Either we have free will or we don't. There's no having it until something exerts us to not have it, beyond just generally forcing someone to do things which basically anyone can do.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Under what logic can you determine that? You're simply stating A leads to B without explaining why. Why does questioning it mean I have it? This isn't Cogito, ergo sum.

1. Insane. By what definition? How can a nonthinking force like destiny or, the less spiritual version, the happenstance of placement of all atoms moving in set patterns governed by the laws of physics even qualify such a human concept?

2. Convoluted. Well complex would be more accurate, but yeah, of course the predestination of the entirety of existence would be complex. It is the entirety of existence after all.

3. Not doing a good job at it. Once again, by what metric? What is considered a good job? That's like saying gravity is doing a good or bad job. It isn't, it's just being gravity. If we have no free will, then it means we are just like gravity, working under certain circumstances to cause certain effects.

4. Not Actually bothering to control us at all. Well this doesn't make sense as it's a binary situation. Either we have free will or we don't. There's no having it until something exerts us to not have it, beyond just generally forcing someone to do things which basically anyone can do.

1.If it doesn't think, how can it control us? One can't control unless they know what they are doing.

2. Yeah, but that only makes it the more pointless to argue over it, if it really is so complicated to that point, then it's impossible to differentiate free will from fate.

3. You can question it, and I can make my own decisions and have free will, so clearly it's not doing a proper job,  If it was really controlling me, it would try to stop me from doing so.

4. If it's a one or another, then we have free will. It doesn't matter if a choice already has a defined path if the person choose that path. It's still your choice in the end.

This argument feels pointless, since we won't find any more answers other than the ones we know. Specially, since all I care about is that my decisions belong to me, and I won't let any human or cosmic force tell me otherwise.

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3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

1.If it doesn't think, how can it control us? One can't control unless they know what they are doing.

2. Yeah, but that only makes it the more pointless to argue over it, if it really is so complicated to that point, then it's impossible to differentiate free will from fate.

3. You can question it, and I can make my own decisions and have free will, so clearly it's not doing a proper job,  If it was really controlling me, it would try to stop me from doing so.

4. If it's a one or another, then we have free will. It doesn't matter if a choice already has a defined path if the person choose that path. It's still your choice in the end.

This argument feels pointless, since we won't find any more answers other than the ones we know. Specially, since all I care about is that my decisions belong to me, and I won't let any human or cosmic force tell me otherwise.

1. Of course something can control something without knowing what it's doing. We're all controlled by the laws of thermodynamics for example. Doesn't mean thermodynamics is a thinking entity in any capacity (...that we know of).

2. Welcome to ontological philosophy.

3. Why would it stop you if it's dictating you do it in the first place?

4. I don't actually disagree with that. Others do however.

Yes, it absolutely is pointless. Hence why I voted No in the poll asking if it matters.

Edited by Jotari
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I believe free will exists, because humans are not restricted to unary thinking.

If we can choose what to do in any given situation, then we possess free will. Even if it is impossible to change outcomes to the results we want, the fact that we can take a stance regarding said outcome shows that we possess free will to act to the best of our capabilities.

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The way I see it, a completely "free" will as in, every choice you make is without any and all influence, doesn't exist, since every choice you make is influenced by the way you were raised, by the experiences you had in the past and of course the context in which you have to make a choice. That is what influences and restricts the "horizon" of our choices somewhat. Does that mean free will doesn't exist? No, because you can still choose to act against "yourself" and do something you normally wouldn't do if you followed your education and / or your past experiences, even if you are less likely to do so.

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I don't see how free will must be tagged with freedom of influences. It isn't about not being influenced, it's about being able to choose despite the influences around you. It's impossible not to be influenced, but we're capable of reasoning about the information and context we're provided to make a choice that (attempts) to represent our most reasonable views about a subject.

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On 9/6/2018 at 9:38 AM, Rapier said:

I don't see how free will must be tagged with freedom of influences. It isn't about not being influenced, it's about being able to choose despite the influences around you. It's impossible not to be influenced, but we're capable of reasoning about the information and context we're provided to make a choice that (attempts) to represent our most reasonable views about a subject.

Most of the time free will is based on what you believe to.

If you believe in God and God grant you free will, then you don't really have free will.

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Ok, I was being stupid, nevermind. If we're conditioned by our biological, psychological and social influences, then our free will is too restricted to be considered "free".

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