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The problem with direct Speed minus Weight?


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Speaking strictly from a combat perspective, I used to like the idea of Constitution, but the more I thought about it, I figured all it really did in the long run was encourage unneeded designer favoritism and give certain units unfair advantages.

So I did away with it as I began initial work on my Fire Emblem: Ascension project deciding which mechanics I wanted to include and which ones I needed to leave out, and instead used the original Speed minus Weight system seen in the first few games.  Honestly, I enjoy using this system far more, as it not only makes balancing class/unit stats easier, but also encourages more fair choices for unit design.  (Plus, it actually makes Slim weapons a lot better/less redundant since literally everybody has an easier time double-attacking with them!)

However, I don't see as many supporters of direct Speed minus Weight as I would think.  There must be some problem with it, in that case.  So what is it?

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I suppose it's because speed is consistently the best stat in every fire emblem game for every class ever almost all of the time. And having it serve as your buffer against weapon weight just makes it even more dominant. That's why people like the Tellius system where your strength is checked against weapon weight instead. Sure that came with it's own imbalances, but it made strength valuable on classes that wouldn't otherwise use it. And gaining the strength to wield steel weapons gave your character another avenue of progression than just their level ups and weapon rank. 

If it were up to me, I'd have a system involving a separate constitution stat since I don't want strength, speed, or any stat to be way better than the others. But have CON be something you could increase through level ups, or indirectly increased via weapon proficiency or skills concerning that weapon type.

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4 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

I suppose it's because speed is consistently the best stat in every fire emblem game for every class ever almost all of the time. And having it serve as your buffer against weapon weight just makes it even more dominant. That's why people like the Tellius system where your strength is checked against weapon weight instead. Sure that came with it's own imbalances, but it made strength valuable on classes that wouldn't otherwise use it.

Funny.  I thought the best stat was supposed to be Movement?  Either way, since I haven't played the Tellius games and it's been too long since I've played Shadow Dragon (I lost my copy along with numerous other DS games), I can't comment on the Speed minus (Weight minus Strength) system.

But it sounds weird to me because if you have enough Strength to wield, say, a Steel Axe with no penalty, you can both do very high damage AND have an easier time doubling with it.  That sounds frightening.

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The problem is the same with FE4, axes weighs a ton and that makes axe users pretty much bad all around. Swords are pretty much the best weapon choice because they're waaaaay lighter than any weapon type. 

If you still want to do speed - weight then I'd suggest not making the weight of weapons not too heavy and making the difference of weight between weapon types smaller. You can also have weapons weigh less the more proficient you are at the specific weapon type you're using. But, I doubt that it'll be easy to program

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2 minutes ago, garbaeg said:

The problem is the same with FE4, axes weighs a ton and that makes axe users pretty much bad all around. Swords are pretty much the best weapon choice because they're waaaaay lighter than any weapon type. 

You can also have negative AS in FE4, which is another can of worms entirely.

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20 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I can't comment on the Speed minus (Weight minus Strength) system.

 

In PoR only an issue early on. By the time every physical unit promotes, they'll have enough Str to void any Wt outside of some more outlier cases (effectives, Braves, Blades), which eventually shall too melt away. Soren and Rhys are always stuck with some AS loss, but the rest of the Mages can eventually get enough Str to heft everything but siege tomes and Rexbolt sans AS loss.

RD is a similar case, Part 1, Wt weighs you down. Part 2, outside of some special cases like Nephenee and her Steel Greatlance, it isn't an issue. Parts 3 and 4, it isn't anything at all (unless you're Mist). Siege tomes got heavier, but other than this all Mages, except for Sanaki, don't have Wt-AS loss concerns. 

Basically, Wt becomes nothing and pure Speed determines AS loss after the earlygame.

SD then made weapons even lighter, to the point nothing weighs more than 11. Thus, when New Mystery abolished Wt, it was just eradicating a something that had already been basically meaningless for some time.

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36 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Funny.  I thought the best stat was supposed to be Movement?

Well obv I was talking about conventional stats that level up, not the kind derived entirely by that unit's class and by one or two consumable items in each playthrough. And even then I'd only argue that movement is the best in games with the overpowered version of Canto. 

Edited by Glennstavos
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What about using Speed - Weight but requiring greater speed differences for higher leveled characters to double?

Why? Because of geometry. The Speed - Weight of two different units tends to grow linearly over levels. For example, imagine that two units start with the same base speed, but one has speed growth 50% while the other has speed growth 30%. After 5 levels the first unit has 1 more speed on average than the second unit, but after 30 levels the first unit has 6 more speed on average than the second unit. But, for some reason, doubling is set to occur once Speed - Weight is greater than or equal to a fixed number such as 4. Maybe instead the required attack speed to double should grow linearly over levels, just enough to make doubling relevant in the early game without becoming a dominating factor in the late game. For example, if the minimum level of two units is 1 - 10, then doubling happens for a 3 speed difference. If the minimum level of two units is 11 - 20, then we need a 4 speed difference. For level 21 - 30, a 5 speed difference, and for level 31 - 40, a 6 speed difference. That's just an example off the top of my head. Please let me know if I made any major errors, as it does happen, and I'm not super familiar with Fire Emblem formulas.

Edit: I noticed one problem with this scheme is that when you go from level 9 to level 10 you effectively lose 1 speed point. That seems a bit awkward, so my mistake on this suggestion. The problem posed still stands I believe, but the specific solution suggested is a little awkward. Here is a fix though: Instead of doubling requirements being adjusted based on level, they should be based on relative speeds. For example, when one unit is 40% faster it should double. That's an idea that might work better.

Edited by expshare
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Yeah, the problem with the formula [speed - weight] is that some weapons get a disgusting amount of favor (more than usual) while others are absolutely useless.  Even the absolute best axe user in Genealogy, Lex, still usually falls victim to that obligatory arena swordfighter that's in every level at rank 3 or 4 unless he levels a ton (not a problem for him with Paragon, but still), and it's because all axes practically turn him into a training dummy for speedy swordfighters.  Meanwhile, even more lackluster sword users like Alec can get beyond that point, albeit with some actual levels behind them and maybe a speed ring.

For reference, axes typically weigh something like 18, while smaller swords (the types of swords most units will be using) weigh 3, and those who get to use heavier swords (as in, all the Isaachian swordfighters) have high enough speed (and skill to proc their ridiculous sword skills that typically destroy most units anyway) that the weight penalty barely matters.  It also plays a role in Sigurd being so OP, as the Silver Sword he gets in the frickin' prologue of all places is a top tier weapon due to still retaining low weight while also receiving a considerable upgrade in might compared even to some lances/axes.

Not having enough attack speed spells doom for any unit's damage output, and when you make a weapon that's best known for its damage output practically incapable of doubling, then all you get is a cumbersome weapon type most units will want to avoid like the plague because it makes them so terrible at fighting.  Even if the unit isn't capable of doubling, they'll still have the issue of worrying about the enemies doubling them, which is equally horrible.

2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

But have CON be something you could increase through level ups, or indirectly increased via weapon proficiency or skills concerning that weapon type.

That's actually kind of how it operates in Thracia 776, though the growths are kinda lopsided.  The majority of units have Build (that's effectively CON in the game, except without a proper AID stat) growths of around 5-30%, but then you have a random ass 75% growth from Marty, turning him into your dedicated capture unit because no one else is likely to get as high a Build as he can early on.  And the funny thing is that he barely even needs it because he already is, like, 5 points away from capping Build.

I don't like CON because it feels arbitrary.  I don't really care for a mechanic that doesn't allow certain units to carry others (I'd very much like to have little Nino hauling frickin' Hawkeye or Wallace over her shoulder while blasting fools), and the only other effect it has is on attack speed, which is already affected largely by speed (and sometimes weight or even strength).  If it's to be used for determining if you can capture enemies a la T776 or Fates, that's fine and actually makes sense, but aside from that I think its effects should be mitigated in all other departments.

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24 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

Yeah, the problem with the formula [speed - weight] is that some weapons get a disgusting amount of favor (more than usual) while others are absolutely useless.  Even the absolute best axe user in Genealogy, Lex, still usually falls victim to that obligatory arena swordfighter that's in every level at rank 3 or 4 unless he levels a ton (not a problem for him with Paragon, but still), and it's because all axes practically turn him into a training dummy for speedy swordfighters.  Meanwhile, even more lackluster sword users like Alec can get beyond that point, albeit with some actual levels behind them and maybe a speed ring.

For reference, axes typically weigh something like 18, while smaller swords (the types of swords most units will be using) weigh 3, and those who get to use heavier swords (as in, all the Isaachian swordfighters) have high enough speed (and skill to proc their ridiculous sword skills that typically destroy most units anyway) that the weight penalty barely matters.  It also plays a role in Sigurd being so OP, as the Silver Sword he gets in the frickin' prologue of all places is a top tier weapon due to still retaining low weight while also receiving a considerable upgrade in might compared even to some lances/axes.

I did come up with a solution to the weight problem that compromises between Awakening and Fates's weightless systems and the Speed minus Weight system that I'm using in my project.  Basically, Swords, Lances, and Axes still have their traditional weight differences, but these are less severe.  For example, a Bronze Sword has 2 Weight, a Bronze Lance has 3 Weight, and a Bronze Axe has 4 Weight.

You can see more examples in this spreadsheet.

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I think the problems people have with it aren't the system, but the implementation. As has been mentioned, Genealogy had some massive differences among weapon types, but if the values were streamlined, the system would be perfectly fine. I've also had the idea that going up in weapon rank gives characters lower penalties for that weapon type, like if someone has a C in swords they get a -1 weight buffer to D rank swords and -2 to E rank.

59 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

You can see more examples in this spreadsheet.

If I may offer my own opinion: I think you should have some weapons with 0 weight. It allows players to have options that will let them just compare their character's Spd as-is to the opponent.

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13 minutes ago, Florete said:

I think the problems people have with it aren't the system, but the implementation. As has been mentioned, Genealogy had some massive differences among weapon types, but if the values were streamlined, the system would be perfectly fine. I've also had the idea that going up in weapon rank gives characters lower penalties for that weapon type, like if someone has a C in swords they get a -1 weight buffer to D rank swords and -2 to E rank.

I've liked this idea.

It fits with the idea of constitution in the first place. Con isn't strength, it's size. Axes don't fit better high con just because they're heavy, it's also because they're lopsided, and simply being bigger and having more leverage lets you use them better.

Something that also helps with leverage is experience. Knowing how to handle weight and distribution can help make up for what you lack in size.

Plus it'd give you a tangible effect with gaining weapon ranks. "Oh, I'm good enough to use Killer Weapons now, I guess I won't get any better with Steel" has always felt a bit silly.

Edited by Slumber
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4 hours ago, Slumber said:

Plus it'd give you a tangible effect with gaining weapon ranks. "Oh, I'm good enough to use Killer Weapons now, I guess I won't get any better with Steel" has always felt a bit silly.

Weapon Rank Bonus wants a word with you) It's one of the few things from Shadow Dragon that I really liked.

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1 minute ago, Kruggov said:

Weapon Rank Bonus wants a word with you) It's one of the few things from Shadow Dragon that I really liked.

I've played through SD maybe... like, one and a half times in my life, so I tend to forget some of the things it actually did right.

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@Florete basically covered my suggestion, which was excess weapon rank mitigating weight. The only things I would add are weapon rank bonuses on top of that (+1/2/3 for C/B/A) and weapon triangle advantage negating the foe's weight buffer.

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Note that most of these comments are coming from someone who hasn't played much Shadow Dragon or any of the SNES games.

I actually like Con, but since I'm not working on anything quite so extensive I've never given much consideration to how ideal of a system it was.

Personally, I like Con because it's a static stat, characters are better or worse in a way that good level ups won't necessarily change, and that fits with higher Con sometimes being good and sometimes being bad. I think it's a neat little factor to keep in mind when analyzing a character, to see what weapons they loose attack speed with and who they can rescue and all that.

However, I can see why Con would be ditched for weightless weapons or -Weight. In the GBA games, Con only ever comes up in a few select instances involving Steel weapons, and it becomes a complete non-factor for most non-mage characters in the Tellius games (and that's still the case in the GBA games for the most part). Having -Weight does make weapon weight more of a consideration, and your comment on how it makes slim weapons better does make the system sound appealing and illustrate some of it's benefits.

As said, If you do use the -Weight system though, having at least one weapon with 0 weight (even if it's just a slim sword and a wind tome) would be good, since it presents the illusion that you don't always have to lose attack speed.

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