Is Lyn better than Marcus/is Marcus good/ is Lyn good

[Florete]

I don't want to get involved in this larger argument but

24 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Which will rob Eliwood of the better promotion. Then you'll have to wait until until you're entering the very endgame to promote her, at which point it's really too late for her.

This really needs to stop. For some reason the only time people ever assume two "bad" units are being used at the same time is when they actively get in the way of each other. How does that make sense? Why are you using Eliwood and Lyn at the same time?

The answer to "Who gets the first Heaven Seal?" should always be "Whichever one you're actually using."

Edited July 16, 2018 by Florete

[Aut]

4 minutes ago, Mister Rogers said:

and Cog does have lower res enemies like generals. It's not the most difficult thing to get various dudes down to low HP then let her kill them. Protecting her from getting swarmed and picked off is a problem, however.

Um... On HHM the only physical enemies in Cog are like 2 brigands, 2 Heroes, 1 Sniper, the boss, and a bunch of wyvern reinforcements. Not exactly low res central considering the rest of the enemies

[Slumber]

8 minutes ago, Florete said:

I don't want to get involved in this larger argument but

This really needs to stop. For some reason the only time people ever assume two "bad" units are being used at the same time is when they actively get in the way of each other. Why are you using Eliwood and Lyn at the same time?

The answer to "Who gets the first Heaven Seal?" should always be "Whichever one you're actually using."

If we're factoring in the argument of "You can only use Lyn or Eliwood", then the whole topic has to shift towards "Why would you even use Lyn in the first place?" That's not a good look for Lyn. She ends up worse than Eliwood, who gets a horse and 1-2 range options, two things that might as well be basic criteria for top tier units in FE7.

If you're just arguing "Use whoever you want", nobody's disagreeing here, but it's also totally possible to level both Eliwood AND Lyn if that's what you're getting at. But we're all here because of who is better between Lyn and Marcus. Lyn robbing Eliwood of a horse, javelins and better weapon triangle control would be more reasons not to use her seriously. The argument of "If you use Lyn, she's good" becomes even shakier in this case. Because while it's technically true, you're now just robbing another bad unit of potentially becoming even better than her.

Or you can not use either. I guess that also works.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Slumber

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, Mister Rogers said:

i mean it's more along the lines that training her is likely more feasible than one would realize in hhm.

and Cog does have lower res enemies like generals. It's not the most difficult thing to get various dudes down to low HP then let her kill them. Protecting her from getting swarmed and picked off is a problem, however.

Sure, if you slow down to a crawl for the sake of training her in Night of Farewells, which has a gimmick that is worse than most Revelation maps.

Except in Hector hard mode, where physical enemies have all but left the building and been replaced by magical enemies she will struggle to do more than barely dent, especially the promoted ones.

[Florete]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

If we're factoring in the argument of "You can only use Lyn or Eliwood", then the whole topic has to shift towards "Why would you even use Lyn in the first place?" That's not a good look for Lyn. She ends up worse than Eliwood, who gets a horse and 1-2 range options, two things that might as well be basic criteria for top tier units in FE7.

Eliwood's not a good enough unit to always be in in the first place (and neither is Lyn). You can use one, the other, or even neither. I can ask "Why would you use __ in the first place?" for almost anyone because very few units are seriously important to beating the game. This isn't an argument.

4 minutes ago, Slumber said:

But we're all here because of who is better between Lyn and Marcus. Lyn robbing Eliwood of a horse, javelins and better weapon triangle control would be more reasons not to use her seriously.

If we're arguing who's better between Marcus and Lyn, Eliwood doesn't need to be in the picture. What Lyn "robs" him of is irrelevant. Yeah, you could use both if you wanted, and I often do, but if you want to talk about optimal play and actually being smart, you're probably only going to use the second one long enough to get Linus' FFO.

[MacLovin]

45 minutes ago, Florete said:

Eliwood's not a good enough unit to always be in in the first place (and neither is Lyn). You can use one, the other, or even neither. I can ask "Why would you use __ in the first place?" for almost anyone because very few units are seriously important to beating the game. This isn't an argument.

If we're arguing who's better between Marcus and Lyn, Eliwood doesn't need to be in the picture. What Lyn "robs" him of is irrelevant. Yeah, you could use both if you wanted, and I often do, but if you want to talk about optimal play and actually being smart, you're probably only going to use the second one long enough to get Linus' FFO.

but if we're talking optimal play with getting geitz in mind, then it's incredibly likely that Eliwood will recieve the promotion since he has a mount. 

 

it's been a while since I've played HHM tbh. 

[Florete]

1 minute ago, Mister Rogers said:

but if we're talking optimal play with getting geitz in mind, then it's incredibly likely that Eliwood will recieve the promotion since he has a mount. 

 

it's been a while since I've played HHM tbh. 

Eliwood doesn't need to promote to get Geitz. Eliwood doesn't even need to get higher than lv 10. It's also only if you actually care about going to Linus' FFO.

[MacLovin]

35 minutes ago, Florete said:

Eliwood doesn't need to promote to get Geitz. Eliwood doesn't even need to get higher than lv 10. It's also only if you actually care about going to Linus' FFO.

we could go in circles by applying that to Lyn as well, but in the end it's down to a personal preference.

usability sooner (she does double at jointime)  versus eventual mount. 

[Florete]

5 minutes ago, Mister Rogers said:

we could go in circles by applying that to Lyn as well, but in the end it's down to a personal preference.

usability sooner (she does double at jointime)  versus eventual mount. 

That's not going in circles, that's true. And if we were discussing Eliwood's viability, that's what I would be saying, that Lyn need not be involved. But we're discussing Lyn's viability, not Eliwood's.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Florete

[MacLovin]

7 minutes ago, Florete said:

That's not going in circles, that's true. And if we were discussing Eliwood's viability, that's what I would be saying, that Lyn need not be involved. But we're discussing Lyn's viability, not Eliwood's.

alrighty.

But is lyn capable of being raised enough to consistently ORKO non-berserkers/warriors with non-prf weapons?

[Florete]

1 minute ago, Mister Rogers said:

alrighty.

But is lyn capable of being raised enough to consistently ORKO non-berserkers/warriors with non-prf weapons?

Certainly.

[Sage of the Mist]

5 hours ago, Slumber said:

You're aware Ninian isn't a combat unit, and should avoid being in fights, right? If you put Ninian in combat range, I'll put money on her dying by the third time she's attacked by anything that isn't a Bandit.

Yes i'm well aware, but if you took the time to level up Nils in lyn's mode she's nigh unhittable when she joins and remains so for the rest of the game. The point  I was making was that  someone had said that doge tanking isn't a reliable strat to stay alive but when your facing hit rates below 10 consistently you don't really ever have to worry about being hit. That being said its always better to keep her away from combat if possible.

 

5 hours ago, Slumber said:

"Nonono, they just suck when they join, if you train them, they'll be good eventually! That makes them a good unit!" argument, well... That also arguably applies to Bartre.

Where did I make this argument exactly?

5 hours ago, Slumber said:

Which will rob Eliwood of the better promotion. Then you'll have to wait until until you're entering the very endgame to promote her, at which point it's really too late for her.

 

I do agree with you on this, and I will concede that I do eventually drop her in HHM just because of this fact but on all other modes she's prefect viable, she's not great buts she's okay.

5 hours ago, Mister Rogers said:

i mean it's more along the lines that training her is likely more feasible than one would realize in hhm.

 

 I would disagree, she's a pain in the rear even on normal mode and even if you do train her up (and take away valuable exp from other better units) she ends up just being a slightly improved Pent. 

Edit: when did this become  Eliwood vs Lyn? Pretty sure it was about Lyn and Marcus. The one thing I will say about the eliwoood and lyn debate is that eliwood being better than her is far from guaranteed what with his growths screaming "RNG screw me please!" But again this is about lyn and marcus, eliwood shouldn't even be in this topic at all.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Sage of the Mist
added info

[DiogoJorge]

13 hours ago, Mister Rogers said:

but if we're talking optimal play with getting geitz in mind, then it's incredibly likely that Eliwood will recieve the promotion since he has a mount. 

 

it's been a while since I've played HHM tbh. 

What makes Eliwood good as a Knight Lord is his promotion gains and acess to javelins, not his mount. And is less usefull than Lyn is until then who gets acess to bows which are more effective against Wyverns, a common enemy later on (which shrug off javelins, specially if one has around 15 STR or so. Not only that, but he rarely reaches lv 20 by the time the seal is available, while Lyn has little issue doing so. Thus, who should get the seal first is obviously going to be Lyn.

Basically, Eliwood is a Kent clone once he reaches a decent level as a Knight Lord (around 5-10 or so), but until he reaches that level, Lyn will be outclassing him for a longwhile. In a way, Eliwood suffers from a similiar problem that Marcus has, Eliwood is pretty average for a good part of the early game, while Marcus is pretty average for a good part of the mid-late game.

Lyn on the other hand, has the stats to be good from her rejoin time to the end whitout much issue due to her great speed and effective weapons.

Edited July 17, 2018 by DiogoJorge
needed to clarify

[Baldrick]

8 hours ago, Sage of the Mist said:

The one thing I will say about the eliwoood and lyn debate is that eliwood being better than her is far from guaranteed what with his growths screaming "RNG screw me please!"

This is a common misconception. The difference in probability of Eliwood being below average in any one stat compared to Lyn (or most other units in the game) is negligible, compared to his 100% chance of promoting into a better class than she does.

[Darros]

18 hours ago, Mister Rogers said:

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This dude's been playing fe 7 since launch.

or so he says.

that places him as quite a bit older than you or I and places him like around Bal's age.

 

I mean. Fair. But without like actually talking to other people who have played the game and know it well all you're going to do is reaffirm your internal biases until they become strongly held "truths" (to the self at least). It takes a while to deconstruct that. Mostly because admitting that you're wrong can be difficult.

[ping]

54 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

And is less usefull than Lyn is until then who gets acess to bows which are more effective against Wyverns

Funny, I could swear that I typed up a rather lengthy explaination why wyvern killing isn't that big of a deal by the time Lyn promotes. And that I linked it in another post in case DiogoJorge missed it.

55 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Lyn on the other hand, has the stats to be good from her rejoin time to the end whitout much issue due to her great speed and effective weapons.

Funny, I could swear that I typed up a rather lengthy explaination why Lyn's combat, despite her high speed, isn't all that impressive when she rejoins, especially when compared to a top tier unit such as Marcus. But that can't be true - after all, DiogoJorge would never just ignore numerical proof against his claims and then just repeat the same ol' claims over and over again! He specifically said that he doesn't do that kind of thing!

[SavageVolug]

I will always consider Marcus to be better than Lynn. Hands down, has a mount, can wield three differant weapon types two of which offer 1-2 range. Due to wielding all three weapons of the triangle, it can be set up where he is rarely if ever at a disadvantage. Furthermore let's take for example the Port Badon map, when the Paladin Damian shows up I am NOT going to be sending Lynn after him even though she can do bonus damage. If she gets hit by him which can very well happen she will be close to dying. And on Hector Hard Mode the chances of her getting hit by this boss are even higher as he has both sword and lance. No, the man I send in for this job, is Marcus with a horseslayer that I picked up in the chapter before and Marcus gets the job done. There are people who have analyzed this much more than I have, such as the youtuber Mekkkah he has two whole Lynn annalysis videos.

[Baldrick]

5 minutes ago, ping said:

Funny, I could swear that I...

If you're enjoying it, don't mind me, but you know it's a lost cause, right?

[ping]

3 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

If you're enjoying it, don't mind me, but you know it's a lost cause, right?

Oh, at this point, I'm just looking up stuff that's interesting for me anyway or I make fun of this whole thing. I stopped expecting an honest response (not to mention an effort to back up any of his points) from him a long time ago.

[Shadow Mir]

21 hours ago, Mister Rogers said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

This dude's been playing fe 7 since launch.

or so he says.

that places him as quite a bit older than you or I and places him like around Bal's age.

 

You know what I find hilarious about this? He still seems to have the mindset people had in 2003, if his posts are any indication. Which is not what I'd expect from someone who supposedly has been playing the game since launch.

[MacLovin]

5 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

What makes Eliwood good as a Knight Lord is his promotion gains and acess to javelins, not his mount. And is less usefull than Lyn is until then who gets acess to bows which are more effective against Wyverns, a common enemy later on (which shrug off javelins, specially if one has around 15 STR or so. Not only that, but he rarely reaches lv 20 by the time the seal is available, while Lyn has little issue doing so. Thus, who should get the seal first is obviously going to be Lyn.

Basically, Eliwood is a Kent clone once he reaches a decent level as a Knight Lord (around 5-10 or so), but until he reaches that level, Lyn will be outclassing him for a longwhile. In a way, Eliwood suffers from a similiar problem that Marcus has, Eliwood is pretty average for a good part of the early game, while Marcus is pretty average for a good part of the mid-late game.

Lyn on the other hand, has the stats to be good from her rejoin time to the end whitout much issue due to her great speed and effective weapons.

that's bullcrap and you know it.

ping wrote up longass posts on why lyn is udnerwhelming and why wyvern killing isn't a big selling point, the nino fanboy guy wrote up longass posts comparing lyn to others.

it seems you just want to have your own opinion, which is fine

but don't go around being pretentious about fe7 and using your "decades long experience" as backing, when you can't even create a cohesive and consistent argument for anything beyond sandbagging marcus and making erroneous claims about fe7.

 

 

5 hours ago, Darros said:

I mean. Fair. But without like actually talking to other people who have played the game and know it well all you're going to do is reaffirm your internal biases until they become strongly held "truths" (to the self at least). It takes a while to deconstruct that. Mostly because admitting that you're wrong can be difficult.

true dat.

i mean i used to think stat caps were everything when I was like 9 and first tried FE.

[Ironthunder]

>Lyndis is better against wyverns

What the fuck kind of world are you living in friend because in reality, Lyndis should never be near a wyvern. That's just a given. She can possibly kill one if she's lucky and crits twice, but if there's more than one wyvern or if she doesn't double-crit, then Lyn's dead.

 

RE:Dodgetanking, I don't think I've ever seen anyone in FE7 face less than a 40% hitrate (which goes for SS too actually, but that's kind of by the by). I've also seen Lyn die in the prologue twice due to not dodging. Evasion is unreliable and quite frankly relying on evasion is the most hazardous thing in the game.

[Kubson]

[Interdimensional Observer]

43 minutes ago, Ironthunder said:

What the fuck kind of world are you living in friend because in reality, Lyndis should never be near a wyvern. That's just a given. She can possibly kill one if she's lucky and crits twice, but if there's more than one wyvern or if she doesn't double-crit, then Lyn's dead.

 

So somebody else doesn't have to step in and say it, Lancereavers exist and are buyable in E23/H24 (FFO). Sure at 15 uses each, they're not the best with the Funds rank in mind, but otherwise they let her dodgetank Lances perfectly well, the Wt is offset by double WT bonuses. No Raven with Hand and Killer offensively, and she can't deal with Javelins, but Lyn can still be perfectly viable defensively and semi-offensively against wyverns.

[Mandokarla]

I kept seeing people reference effective weapons, and I'll add in here, at the risk of repetition: effective weapons in FE7 are hot fucking garbage. Only 2X effective might means wyverns might still not take any more damage from Lyn's bows than anyone else with their usual weapons. The Mani Katti is a decent weapon, but it only barely allows her to killsteal for early exp. She is completely worthless sans stat-boosters in endgame because the Sol Katti weighs as much as a Death Star, and kills her AS -- you know, her only potential strong point. 

Upon promotion she gets the objectively worst weapon class in FE7 as a secondary, and does not get a mount of any notable kind -- this limits utility purposes such as rescue-dropping with GBA canto. Lyn, like literally any character in all of Fire Emblem, can be babied into being a good unit, but that possibility doesn't make her good. 

Compare the effort required to make Marcus a high-value unit vs making Lyn a high-value unit. Lyn needs a LOT of experience, potentially some stat boosters, and a Prf weapon. Marcus needs a Hand Axe. Marcus is also around earlier, and can hold his own into endgame.