Jump to content

Is Lyn better than Marcus/is Marcus good/ is Lyn good


gjuptonv
 Share

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Ironthunder said:

RE:Dodgetanking, I don't think I've ever seen anyone in FE7 face less than a 40% hitrate (which goes for SS too actually, but that's kind of by the by).

Do you know how the weapon triangle works? Terrain?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 366
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

9 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

So somebody else doesn't have to step in and say it, Lancereavers exist and are buyable in E23/H24 (FFO). Sure at 15 uses each, they're not the best with the Funds rank in mind, but otherwise they let her dodgetank Lances perfectly well, the Wt is offset by double WT bonuses. No Raven with Hand and Killer offensively, and she can't deal with Javelins, but Lyn can still be perfectly viable defensively and semi-offensively against wyverns.

It's just that every sword user can grab a Lancereaver, so I wouldn't call this a special boon for Lyn. In particular, Raven and Guy can both use them, both of them have higher Str than Lyn, both of them can promote earlier than Lyn (you already get the second Hero Crest in New Resolve, too, and it's not like Bartre and Dorcas's stats scream PROMOTE ME), both of their promotions give them something better than freaking bows (+15% crit can make it halfway reliable to go for KE hit+crit for Guy; axes are 1-2 range and you can honestly just save the ducats for the Lancereaver uses).

For what it's worth, I do not think that Lyn is a contender for Worst Unit in Blazing Sword. With Lyn Mode, it's realistic for her to rejoin at level 7-10, which should at least keep her out of OHKO range even from Steel Lance enemies, so that she can actually apply that Player Phace nukage fairly reliably. I still wouldn't say that it makes her a good unit because she'll basically require a Heal every time she gets countered by something without an bow, axe or axereaver, but it's certainly more than units like Wil, Wallace, or Karla bring to the table.
Without LHM, though, she does get one-shot by the Steel Lance cav in ch.17 unless she procs HP or Def beforehand and obviously, she gets 2HKO by literally every enemy combination (the Short Bow Archer in chapter 17 has enough Atk to two-shot her! She needs +3 HP or +1 HP/+1 Def to avoid that). You can get away with that level of frailty if you have strong 2-range so that you can deal damage without being countered - case in point: Lucius - but for a unit that is locked to 1-range, that's a horrible place to be.

If I had to put numbers on this, I'd probably go for 4/10 for LHM-boosted Lyn (note that I consider 5/10 "average", not "bad", so this isn't supposed to be a horrible score), but not above 2/10 for LHM-less Lyn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Florete said:

Do you know how the weapon triangle works? Terrain?

Yep. Still never seen the hit go below 40 against any of my guys. I've gotten sub-40 hit against enemies before (mostly vs Uhai when he's sat on a forest) but never against my units.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say sub-displayed 30 hitrates, which is 18.30 True, is ideal for dodgetanking. Although even at displayed 40, you're looking at 32.40 True, which isn't bad.

Dodgetanking is relatively speaking, quite easy in the GBA era. However, it isn't braindead easy. In the beginning, dodgetanking isn't so reliable/possible since your units need to accrue their Spd and Lck. Forests and Forts do provide a hefty 20 Avoid bonus, but these aren't always available, and can't be used by the Pegs. WTA is another 15 (with a -reaver 30) hit off the enemy's side of the equation. If you have the time, building the right supports for more Avoid is very helpful, +15 for two characters at A rank both of whom give Avoid from their affinity. These are a lot of conditionals, but get enough of them in your favor, and the result is calculated invincibility.

 

On an unranked HHM, Florina never got to the sub-30 zone even with a Slim Lance fighting Wyverns from what I remember, which cut into her value as a one woman flying fighting force. On Normal maybe she could, but on Normal is a joke.

 

5 hours ago, ping said:

It's just that every sword user can grab a Lancereaver, so I wouldn't call this a special boon for Lyn. In particular, Raven and Guy can both use them, both of them have higher Str than Lyn, both of them can promote earlier than Lyn (you already get the second Hero Crest in New Resolve, too, and it's not like Bartre and Dorcas's stats scream PROMOTE ME), both of their promotions give them something better than freaking bows (+15% crit can make it halfway reliable to go for KE hit+crit for Guy; axes are 1-2 range and you can honestly just save the ducats for the Lancereaver uses).

I'm not denying others can get Lancereavers (or Axereavers or Swordreavers), just that a monotype sword like Lyn, and also Guy, will actually be using one and benefits more from it since they normally don't control two sides of the WT. Why does Raven have to bother with a Lancereaver after he promotes when he has Axes? With a Killer Axe, which is actually cheaper and has five more uses, has the same Mt as a WTA Lancereaver, and gives 25 more Crit. Yes he does lose 2 AS, and hit rates will be 19 points higher on enemies, but he has enough HP and Avoid still to not care about these things.

And I wasn't saying it is a special boon for Lyn at all, only that with one, she can become an adequate lance dodger. As I said before, comparatively Raven (and Harken, and promoted Sain/Kent/Lowen) can all outdo her here owing to the ability to survive Wyverns just the same, and then deal more damage to more units than she can.

 

5 hours ago, ping said:

For what it's worth, I do not think that Lyn is a contender for Worst Unit in Blazing Sword. With Lyn Mode, it's realistic for her to rejoin at level 7-10, which should at least keep her out of OHKO range even from Steel Lance enemies, so that she can actually apply that Player Phace nukage fairly reliably. I still wouldn't say that it makes her a good unit because she'll basically require a Heal every time she gets countered by something without an bow, axe or axereaver, but it's certainly more than units like Wil, Wallace, or Karla bring to the table.

Not even Roy is probably the worst unit in his game. There has never been a case of this in FE. Lords always get a number of things in their favor, like perfect availability and personal weapons (Micaiah gets Staffbotting as her saving grace later on), which keep them from being bottom of bottom. And somehow, IS always manages to mess up somebody else much worse. To be the worst lord in FE, would I say is no worse than being lower-mid on an "efficiency" no-grind tier list of their respective game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, ping said:

It's just that every sword user can grab a Lancereaver, so I wouldn't call this a special boon for Lyn. In particular, Raven and Guy can both use them, both of them have higher Str than Lyn, both of them can promote earlier than Lyn (you already get the second Hero Crest in New Resolve, too, and it's not like Bartre and Dorcas's stats scream PROMOTE ME), both of their promotions give them something better than freaking bows (+15% crit can make it halfway reliable to go for KE hit+crit for Guy; axes are 1-2 range and you can honestly just save the ducats for the Lancereaver uses).

For what it's worth, I do not think that Lyn is a contender for Worst Unit in Blazing Sword. With Lyn Mode, it's realistic for her to rejoin at level 7-10, which should at least keep her out of OHKO range even from Steel Lance enemies, so that she can actually apply that Player Phace nukage fairly reliably. I still wouldn't say that it makes her a good unit because she'll basically require a Heal every time she gets countered by something without an bow, axe or axereaver, but it's certainly more than units like Wil, Wallace, or Karla bring to the table.
Without LHM, though, she does get one-shot by the Steel Lance cav in ch.17 unless she procs HP or Def beforehand and obviously, she gets 2HKO by literally every enemy combination (the Short Bow Archer in chapter 17 has enough Atk to two-shot her! She needs +3 HP or +1 HP/+1 Def to avoid that). You can get away with that level of frailty if you have strong 2-range so that you can deal damage without being countered - case in point: Lucius - but for a unit that is locked to 1-range, that's a horrible place to be.

If I had to put numbers on this, I'd probably go for 4/10 for LHM-boosted Lyn (note that I consider 5/10 "average", not "bad", so this isn't supposed to be a horrible score), but not above 2/10 for LHM-less Lyn.

I would honestly say that Guy's crit chance bonus versus the axedudes 1-2 range is kinda dependant on personal preference. I mean you don't get killing edges in in the early part of midgame unless you use the secret shop on dread isle. 

Granted the fighters have low speed, but then again one isn't really using the fighters/guy past dread isle outside of ranked mode exp requirements, drafts, or personal preference. Besides, using 2 hero crest dudes make it more likely to go to Jerme's map, the snow slog. Sure it's easier to get Harken, but that it as far as I recall. 

I'll also admit that both Guy and the fighters get pushed to the side by better units. Raven can do both swords and 1-2 range with axes on promotion. Hawkeye/Geitz/Isadora come with solid bases and weapon ranks.

it's been a while since I used guy in hhm, but how does he stack durability wise in comparison to the other melee infantry come second hero crest time?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'm not denying others can get Lancereavers (or Axereavers or Swordreavers), just that a monotype sword like Lyn, and also Guy, will actually be using one and benefits more from it since they normally don't control two sides of the WT. Why does Raven have to bother with a Lancereaver after he promotes when he has Axes? With a Killer Axe, which is actually cheaper and has five more uses, has the same Mt as a WTA Lancereaver, and gives 25 more Crit. Yes he does lose 2 AS, and hit rates will be 19 points higher on enemies, but he has enough HP and Avoid still to not care about these things.

And I wasn't saying it is a special boon for Lyn at all, only that with one, she can become an adequate lance dodger. As I said before, comparatively Raven (and Harken, and promoted Sain/Kent/Lowen) can all outdo her here owing to the ability to survive Wyverns just the same, and then deal more damage to more units than she can.

Sorry, I didn't intend to put words in your mouth. It's just that Reavers have been brought up in Lyn discussions repeatedly, and I keep wondering why when they reduce (not even eliminate) the negative impact of swordlock in general.

But looking back, your initial post was a valid objection to another post, so I probably just shouldn't have brought this up. ;)

I only mentioned Raven because he starts as a swordlocked unit, as well. You're right, of course, in that he doesn't even need them after promotion.

@Mister Rogers - What I meant isn't that Guy would be a better candidate for promotion than the axe bros, but rather that the 2nd hero crest can go to whoever. So if you want to use Guy, you don't really lose anything except the selling price for that Hero Crest, unlike for example the Knight Crest, for which Oswin is very clearly only the 4th-best candidate.

About HHM!Guy's durability: Meh. Comparing 20/1 stats (for simplicity's sake), his [43 HP |10-11 Def] can still compete with Dorcas' [46-47 HP | 10 Def], but Bartre [47 | 12-13] and HHM!Raven [46 | 12] are noticeably more tanky. Needless to say, it's still enough to dwarf Lyn's durability of [32 | 9].

But again, I didn't try to argue for or against Guy > Dorcas. ;)

Edited by ping
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, ping said:

Sorry, I didn't intend to put words in your mouth. It's just that Reavers have been brought up in Lyn discussions repeatedly, and I keep wondering why when they reduce (not even eliminate) the negative impact of swordlock in general.

But looking back, your initial post was a valid objection to another post, so I probably just shouldn't have brought this up. ;)

I only mentioned Raven because he starts as a swordlocked unit, as well. You're right, of course, in that he doesn't even need them after promotion.

@Mister Rogers - What I meant isn't that Guy would be a better candidate for promotion than the axe bros, but rather that the 2nd hero crest can go to whoever. So if you want to use Guy, you don't really lose anything except the selling price for that Hero Crest, unlike for example the Knight Crest, for which Oswin is very clearly only the 4th-best candidate.

About HHM!Guy's durability: Meh. Comparing 20/1 stats (for simplicity's sake), his [43 HP |10-11 Def] can still compete with Dorcas' [46-47 HP | 10 Def], but Bartre [47 | 12-13] and HHM!Raven [46 | 12] are noticeably more tanky. Needless to say, it's still enough to dwarf Lyn's durability of [32 | 9].

But again, I didn't try to argue for or against Guy > Dorcas. ;)

I understand, I was just curious and haven't actually used Guy in a long time in HHM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Ironthunder said:

Yep. Still never seen the hit go below 40 against any of my guys. I've gotten sub-40 hit against enemies before (mostly vs Uhai when he's sat on a forest) but never against my units.

Then I wonder what game you're playing. I regularly see sub 40 hit rates, sometimes even without WTA, sometimes going all the way down to 0. Dodge tanking can be quite potent in this game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Ironthunder said:

Yep. Still never seen the hit go below 40 against any of my guys. I've gotten sub-40 hit against enemies before (mostly vs Uhai when he's sat on a forest) but never against my units.

HOW TO DODGE:

1. Use a weapon that has less WT than your unit's CON.  In other words, don't expect amazing dodge numbers from a Florina with a Steel Lance.
2. Take advantage of WTA.  Florina with a Slim Lance fares a lot better against swordies than axe guys.
3. Take advantage of supports.  Which Florina kinda fails at, due to her affinity.  But if she supports someone like Serra, she can get some dodge to her name!

To illustrate how dodging works, I'm going to use Raven.  Why him?  Because Florina doesn't get terrain bonuses.

Raven on HM is a bit of an anomaly, sporting 32 avoid on recruitment (15 Spd, 2 Lck).  Next, I'm going to take Chapter 21's HHM data (it's the pinned topic, go read it) - Oleg has 86 hit with his Killer Axe.  Assuming no other factors, Raven has a 54% chance of being hit.

BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!

Since Raven has a sword (and I'll assume it's something that he can hold without AS loss, and that isn't a Lancereaver), he gets +15 to his avoid.  Suddenly, that's a 39% chance of dodging.  And if you stand in one of those forest tiles, you're looking at a 19% hit rate!

That's base Raven.  If he has a few levels under his belt, his avoid should be better, depending on his supports/speed levels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 17/07/2018 at 12:29 PM, ping said:

Funny, I could swear that I typed up a rather lengthy explaination why wyvern killing isn't that big of a deal by the time Lyn promotes. And that I linked it in another post in case DiogoJorge missed it.

Funny, I could swear that I typed up a rather lengthy explaination why Lyn's combat, despite her high speed, isn't all that impressive when she rejoins, especially when compared to a top tier unit such as Marcus. But that can't be true - after all, DiogoJorge would never just ignore numerical proof against his claims and then just repeat the same ol' claims over and over again! He specifically said that he doesn't do that kind of thing!

 

I probably did, since I don't remember. And wyvern killing is a big enough of deal when it comes to Wyvern Lords. You want as many hands to deal with those, since even Hector has trouble doubling those to death, which Lyn can do fairly easily, as long she has a Steel or Killer Bow.

And I could swear that I typed why that point is of no consequence when Marcus rarely grows. For the record, a Blade Lord Lyn surpasses Marcus in some key  areas except HP, STR and SKL which are usually ony 2-3 points above her. Let that sink in, a Silver lance will lose against a Silver or Killing Edge if it doubles less, since Marcus is most likely stuck with 12 SPD at that point, only good to deal with the truely slow enemies like Shamans and Knights and the like, which Hector and Kent excells at anyway, thus leaving Marcus in the dust and making it unlikely he will ever grow past lv 8 at best.

Your numerical proof of yours shows that Lyn is better though. How does that even count as proof when it opposes your view? I will repeat the same claims as long they remain unrefuted, since you didn't refute them so far.

 

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When Lyn is a Blade Lord and you have a huge stable of strong units, she is somewhat better than Marcus.

Marcus is your most powerful unit for the entire first half of the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Blade Lord Lyn surpasses Marcus in some key areas" aka "Lyn's stats are better than Marcus' if you give her, the worst Lord with an awful promotion, your first Heaven Seal (over Eliwood, who gets the best weapon type and also a horse) after 14 entire chapters, which (other than BBD and COD) are probably the hardest bunch in HHM"

I'm honestly unsure how you've managed to reach this level of delusion. I'm a sucker for using lords so I've probably used the trio every single time I've played FE7 apart from one or two times on HHM, but I genuinely don't know how someone can just ignore facts.

Let's look at averages since they're the most reliable measure. Say you get Lyn to level 10 in Lyn mode, which is probably a bit high but I'll go with it. Even then she'll only have 2 stats better than Marcus and one of those is skill lmao. Lyn is just an inferior unit to him apart from growths, but unless you get blessed she has an awful start against enemies who can mostly 1RKO her. 

Marcus barely grows, that's right, but what you seem to be missing is that he doesn't need to grow. Lyn needs growth to actually become a spectacular unit, growth which is hard to attain due to her horrible durability. Marcus doesn't need growths cause his bases are so good they're enough to carry him 2/3 of the way through the game, and by that time he'll probably have levelled up a few times. Combine these stats with constant availability to 1-2 range. complete control over the weapon triangle and the best movement in the game until you promote Florina, and amazing availability, coming in the first, or second if Hector mode, chapter in the game. 

Saying that she's better when promoted is a completely non-argument. Lyn has a downright objectively awful promotion for a variation of reasons. Let's go with HHM for this cause it's the only mode where there's any difficulty whatsoever. First of all, it isn't available to you whatsoever until Chapter 26, which is roughly 2/3 of the way through the game. By this time, Lyn isn't spectacular whatsoever, being locked to the second worst weapon type and her only niche of being able to reliably double being outshined by units like Sain, Kent and Florina, but they also have actual Strength stats to back it up making them better in every way. Promoting Lyn first means you're not promoting Eliwood. This is an issue cause Eliwood has the best Lord promotion in the game, gaining access to the best weapon type in the game and also amazing movement. All she gains really is access to bows, which is the worst weapon type in Fire Emblem as a whole. They aren't too strong, they're locked to 2 range, they don't have any possible WTA, and the effectiveness means almost nothing in FE7 because it's only a 2x boost. Combine this with high defense on Wyverns, you're often better off just using an axe unit like Hector, Marcus, Sain, Kent, Bartre etc. They can tank the hits better due to overall better durability, gain a weapon triangle advantage, and often due more damage due to higher Mt on axes and higher Str on the units using them. On average, a Level 20/1 Lyn will only have 14 Strength. Combine this with an Iron Bow, the only weapon she can use without being weighed down, she'll be doing about 14x2 to the unpromoted units, let alone the promoted ones. There's just no real advantages here, it causes more problems than it fixes cause it makes Eliwood be a meh unit for longer.

Edited by saucegoblin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I probably did, since I don't remember. And wyvern killing is a big enough of deal when it comes to Wyvern Lords. You want as many hands to deal with those, since even Hector has trouble doubling those to death, which Lyn can do fairly easily, as long she has a Steel or Killer Bow.

On 15.7.2018 at 7:15 PM, ping said:

For example, what makes Lyn a better "bait against axemen and swordsmen" than Guy (who easily outtanks her on HHM and matches her offense even taking the Mani Katti into account) or Raven (do I even have to spell this one out?)?

I would assume that the "wyvern slaying" refers to her bow rank after promotion - what's the impact of using

  • Louise, who can use silver bows at base and is fast enough to double every wyvern rider (and, let's be real, the promoted ones as well. The two in 28x have 12 and 13 AS) in the game? To put some numbers here - base Louise has 38 Atk against flyers with a silver bow; Lyn matches that at 20/17 with a Steel Bow.
  • Pent, who makes up for the lack of effective damage by targeting the wyverns' lower Res stat? The difference between Def and Res on WR stays around 9 points quite consistently to make up for the lack of effective damage. Pent with a Thunder tome will deal 23 damage to a 3-Res Wyvern (i.e. 2HKO and one-round) with the added benefit of 1-2 range. If you promote one of the earlier magic users (Erk, Lucius, Canas), they will be able to one-round wyverns, as well, although Erk is kinda cutting it close to reach the necessary Mag.
  • Rath, who can easily be brought to B Bows in Lyn mode, so he can use the Brave Bow practically instantly? Of course, Wil and Rebecca (if you've been training them), will also be able to use high-ranked bows by the time Lyn promotes.
  • Hawkeye, whose 11 base speed is high enough to double quite a few wyvern riders (specifically Steel Lance Wyverns)? You need 30 Atk to 2HKO wyvern riders in 28x and Hawkeye reaches exactly that with a Steel Axe, thanks to the weapon triangle. Obviously, he's not as reliable as Lyn when it comes to killing that specific wyvern because 11 Spd is only sometimes enough if the Wyvern in question is not wielding Steel, but he is quite a bit better at wounding multiple wyverns per turn.
  • Geitz (funny that I would mention him, given the original question of the thread), who with a Steel Axe is basically a less bulky Hawkeye with one additional point of Spd (which is actually quite relevant against wyverns) who can also do what Rath does and Brave Bow a wyvern on PP, if needed.

These examples of Lyn's qualities demostrate why most people here consider her to be a mid- or low-tier unit: They are not unique to her. Her biggest feature is her PP combat against cavalry, but it's been discussed repeatedly why that isn't all that great - namely, because it's Player Phase combat and other units are able to make her redundant not by copying her, but by dishing out damage during the enemy phase so that Lyn's higher PP damage output isn't needed anymore. Her biggest claim to fame is probably Dragon's gate since the chokepoint-y map design makes it hard to counter more than a few of the enemy cavs and nomads and Marcus only doubles around half of the cavs (more if he procced Spd, which isn't that unlikely at this point, if you've been using him) and none of the nomads, so every bit of damage dealing is appreciated here.

On 13.7.2018 at 1:43 PM, ping said:

In Lyn's joining chapter, Marcus doubles everything except for Mercs and Myrms who mostly have around 9-11 AS. Lyn might double all of those - she reaches 15 AS at level 11, which needs some investment in LHM to reach. One Myrm has 13 AS, so Lyn needs to be speedblessed to double him (or at level 14-15, which isn't really resonable).

The Myrmidons seem to have about 21 HP / 3 Def. It takes 14 Atk to 2HKO that, which shouldn't be a problem for Lyn - Mani Katti has 8 might, she reaches 6 Str at level 6 (or 7 at level 8-9 if the Myrm has a forest to stand in). However, the Mercs have at least 23 HP / 5 Def, which takes 17 Atk to 2HKO. Lyn reaches the necessary 9 Str at level 14, i.e. not in Lyn Mode. Admittedly, she can take the LHM Energy Ring to improve those odds, although I personally think that Florina is a much better recipient for both stat boosters.

Meanwhile, Marcus can one-shot all but one (the lv. 5 Merc who has 26 HP / 5 Def) of these swordies with the Silver Lance, if needed - 15 Str + 14 Might + 1 for WTA = 30 Atk. With a Steel Lance, he reaches 26 Atk, which should at least be enough for the lower leveled Myrms, if not all of them.

Accuracy-wise, Marcus at base level has 119 hit with the Silver Lance against a sword user (2*15 + 8/2 + 75 + 10); Lyn reaches about 110 hit (2*12.5 + 10/2 + 80) with the Mani Katti. Even with a Steel Lance, Marcus is still slightly more accurate (114 hit) than Lyn.

Dodge-tanking isn't really a viable strategy against sword users - even the Steel Sword Myrm reaches 97 hit against Lyn's 38-40 avoid (at level 10), so that's still 37 disp.hit if Lyn stands in a forest and 57 if she doesn't. I won't even bother calculating the raw durability of Marcus vs. Lyn - but I'd like to mention that Marcus has 30 avoid at base, which becomes 40 thanks to WTA. Also, if he one-shots on player phase, he doesn't take a counter anyway.

Her effective damage against the Cavs is obviously nice, but Marcus easily one-rounds them, as well, so it's not really a point in her favour at this point.

--

TL;DR: Doubling is nice and all, but "as soon as [Lyn] joins", her offense barely catches up to Marcus' if she doubles and he doesn't (same against cavs/knights). Otherwise, Marcus'  offense is still vastly superior to Lyn's, not to mention that he completly outclasses her defensively, has good 1-2 ranged options, more movement, and Canto.

(Note: I got this game and FE6 confused - WTA is actually +15 hit/avoid in FE7, so Marcus's raw accuracy is actually 124 (Silver) and 119 (Steel), and his base avoid against Swordies is actually 45. Not a big deal, but it widens the gap)

And, of course this classic:

On 19.6.2018 at 4:38 PM, ping said:

I'll happily eat my words if you can present a unit that has a bigger performance lead over the entire rest of the team than Marcus does in the first half of the game. Until then, I'll keep saying that "DONT USE THE JAGEN" is the worst advice one can give to a new player.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

And wyvern killing is a big enough of deal when it comes to Wyvern Lords.

Yeah, the like 5 wyvern lords you see over the course of the game. Big fucking deal. Even then, mages do a better job of it because they're not sitting ducks come enemy phase. And because they hit resistance, which wyverns have crap for.

Edited by Shadow Mir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Yeah, the like 5 wyvern lords you see over the course of the game. Big fucking deal. Even then, mages do a better job of it because they're not sitting ducks come enemy phase. And because they hit resistance, which wyverns have crap for.

There are only a few mages, they can't be everywhere.

They have enough HP to endure a few magic spells, unless they have Lucius level of MAG.

So it's better to have an bow user around for extra wyvern slaying.

3 hours ago, ping said:
 

I'll happily eat my words if you can present a unit that has a bigger performance lead over the entire rest of the team than Marcus does in the first half of the game. Until then, I'll keep saying that "DONT USE THE JAGEN" is the worst advice one can give to a new player.

Hector. The first half of the game is chapters 11-22, Hector contributes the most for all those chapters, considering that he has a DEF and STR lead soon enough and that Marcus is utterly unecessary for chapter 12 and 19x, on top of that, not being part of chapter 11. Being good for the first half of the game isn't much of an incentive, considering that the other half also matters, specially since there are more sidechapters to take into account.

 

 

As for your mention on units that can kill wyverns.

Louise: Joins too late and is inferior in everyway to Lyn, her growths and bases aren't good enough. Silver Bows matter little when Lyn can use Steel bows and is faster and more durable than her at that point. Also, you might as well sugest Rebecca who is superior to Louise, who is also inferior to Lyn, but at least worth a deployment slot.

Pent: Good mage, but he doesn't cause effective damage which bows does, he's also not as fast nor can dodgetank as well as Lyn does, as well having less HP and barely passable growths.

Rath: Barely any better than Louise, since he joins almost as late, but instead of having some promoted like stats, he's stuck with his lv 8 or so stats. He's usually not worth using.

Hawkeye: Too slow, it might be enough to double some wyverns, but not all of them, he's also not worth deploying when Hector is faster than him.

Geitz: good unit, with decent stats and having some good growths as well, so far he's the only character you mentioned that I would approve of using. He's pretty much Lyn with less SPD but more durability, and having axes instead of swords. He would be about as good as Lyn is.

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

There are only a few mages, they can't be everywhere.

They have enough HP to endure a few magic spells, unless they have Lucius level of MAG.

So it's better to have an bow user around for extra wyvern slaying.

Which would matter if not for, you know, the fact that effective weapons are only 2x might. And that by the time Lyn promotes, I'd have other units that could fill anti-flier duty. Like Louise, who comes in during the first chapter that Lyn can potentially promote.

54 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Hector. The first half of the game is chapters 11-22, Hector contributes the most for all those chapters, considering that he has a DEF and STR lead soon enough and that Marcus is utterly unecessary for chapter 12 and 19x, on top of that, not being part of chapter 11. Being good for the first half of the game isn't much of an incentive, considering that the other half also matters, specially since there are more sidechapters to take into account.

Since you seem to have deluded yourself into thinking Hector is some unkillable god... this should shatter your foolish delusions of grandeur:

Guess who has 3 fails centered on them at the beginning?!

Bolded: Bullshit. Three words: Early Game Hell.

Edited by Shadow Mir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Louise joins precisely at the same time as Lyn promotes. Why does she join too late, if Lyn's promotion comes early enough?

Louise has 17 base speed (enough to double wyvern lords) and 38 Atk with Silver, which 2HKO's Riders, but not Lords. 20/1 Lyn with a Steel bow only reaches 32 Atk. A Steel Bow weighs Lyn down to 17 speed, too. Why is [38 Atk / 17 AS] not better than [32 Atk / 17 AS]? Please take note that Louise's speed is sufficient to double wyvern LORDS, so Lyn's higher Spd growth doesn't help her wyvern sniping.

Pent targets Res instead of Def, which makes up for the effective damage - the difference between Def and Res on wyverns is at least 9 points, while the difference between effective Steel Bow damage (18) is also just 10 points higher than Thunder's base damage. Since Pent's Mag/Str is higher than Lyn's and both of them are fast enough to double reliably, he will consistently deal slightly more damage than Lyn despite the effectiveness multiplier. This ain't Shadow Dragon. Is it enough to explain this twice, or should I repeat this a third time?

I already addressed your objections towards Hawkeye, stating that he makes up for it with the ability to damage multiple enemies on EP. Why are you ignoring this part?

Chapter 23x is a good chapter for bow users to gain experience in (source: My current HHM Ranked run, in which he reached level 18 after chapter 23x. Note that "ranked" means that I did not slow down in order to train him), so Rath does not have any problem promoting earlier than Lyn does. Why is his unpromoted status an issue, but Lyn's isn't?

--

I think I have sufficiently shown that all the units I've listed can either replicate Lyn's ability to fight wyverns - all of them will 2HKO unpromoted ones and deal heavy damage to the few promoted ones, and Lyn does not have the highest damage rolls among them - or tackle wyvern swarms in another, equally effective way (Hawkeye). Why do you only "approve" (rofl) of using Lyn and Geitz? Where is the consistency in your unit rankings? What makes Lyn more "effective" than other units that can accomplish the same feats as her? Why do you keep bringing up "better growths" instead of concrete applications of a unit's stats?

--

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

Hector. The first half of the game is chapters 11-22, Hector contributes the most for all those chapters, considering that he has a DEF and STR lead soon enough and that Marcus is utterly unecessary for chapter 12 and 19x, on top of that, not being part of chapter 11. Being good for the first half of the game isn't much of an incentive, considering that the other half also matters, specially since there are more sidechapters to take into account.

I'll concede that chapter 11 isn't possible without Hector, but I have a hard time "counting" chapters when evaluating when you have two units (plusminus) in your team. It's the same thing with Edward, Burger King, Brom, and Nephenee in Radiant Dawn - all of them are the only melee units in one chapter, which alone makes them essential in that particular map, but I've never seen anyone call them the best units of the game because of it.

You also don't seem to realize how utterly ridiculous Marcus is in the first couple chapters that he's in. They're all beatable without him, yes, but surely you're aware of how much easier Marcus makes them? Have you ever made the comparison for yourself? Hector doesn't even come close to that level of effortless domination. He is still a very good earlygame unit, don't get me wrong, but if you can't recognize Marcus' usefulness, I suppose that you're just not a good enough player to use him to his full potential.

Yes, that last part is deliberately copying Diogo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 16/7/2018 at 10:19 AM, DiogoJorge said:

Marcus is only good for half the game, average for the rest at best, end of story.

Lyn has better stats in most areas by midgame, so I will hear what you say but disagree with it, always.

Thank you for the video, anyway. I will see if it helps me in any way.

  Just wanted to say I'm surprised ANYONE is still arguing with someone with kind kind of mindset. 2+2=4? Nope, he says he'll lend you a hear but disagree, always, because in his mind 2+2=45.6. I hope you have at least understood why people do experiments like 0% growths, I tried and failed miserably but from a gameplay perspective it really opens your horizons. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

  Just wanted to say I'm surprised ANYONE is still arguing with someone with kind kind of mindset. 2+2=4? Nope, he says he'll lend you a hear but disagree, always, because in his mind 2+2=45.6. I hope you have at least understood why people do experiments like 0% growths, I tried and failed miserably but from a gameplay perspective it really opens your horizons. 

Wrong. I will lend you a ear, but I will have the final word in whatever one's advice or opinion is helpfull or not. Using Marcus isn't the kind of advice I would give to anyone playing beyond chapters 20.

Considering that Lyn has better stats by midgame than Marcus in key areas, it's really a case of 2+2 = 4, if we are to use mathematic equations for comparison. Blade Lord Lyn > Marcus at lv 5-8, wich is usually the level he is at by then.

They do 0% growth runs to challenge themselves further, by taking away the best features of growth units, forcing you to use prepromotes. I'm pretty sure one can finish the game with prepromotes if they put more effort into it, but it's still easier to win by using units with better stats.

Quote

Louise joins precisely at the same time as Lyn promotes. Why does she join too late, if Lyn's promotion comes early enough?

Louise has 17 base speed (enough to double wyvern lords) and 38 Atk with Silver, which 2HKO's Riders, but not Lords. 20/1 Lyn with a Steel bow only reaches 32 Atk. A Steel Bow weighs Lyn down to 17 speed, too. Why is [38 Atk / 17 AS] not better than [32 Atk / 17 AS]? Please take note that Louise's speed is sufficient to double wyvern LORDS, so Lyn's higher Spd growth doesn't help her wyvern sniping.

Pent targets Res instead of Def, which makes up for the effective damage - the difference between Def and Res on wyverns is at least 9 points, while the difference between effective Steel Bow damage (18) is also just 10 points higher than Thunder's base damage. Since Pent's Mag/Str is higher than Lyn's and both of them are fast enough to double reliably, he will consistently deal slightly more damage than Lyn despite the effectiveness multiplier. This ain't Shadow Dragon. Is it enough to explain this twice, or should I repeat this a third time?

I already addressed your objections towards Hawkeye, stating that he makes up for it with the ability to damage multiple enemies on EP. Why are you ignoring this part?

Chapter 23x is a good chapter for bow users to gain experience in (source: My current HHM Ranked run, in which he reached level 18 after chapter 23x. Note that "ranked" means that I did not slow down in order to train him), so Rath does not have any problem promoting earlier than Lyn does. Why is his unpromoted status an issue, but Lyn's isn't?

--

I think I have sufficiently shown that all the units I've listed can either replicate Lyn's ability to fight wyverns - all of them will 2HKO unpromoted ones and deal heavy damage to the few promoted ones, and Lyn does not have the highest damage rolls among them - or tackle wyvern swarms in another, equally effective way (Hawkeye). Why do you only "approve" (rofl) of using Lyn and Geitz? Where is the consistency in your unit rankings? What makes Lyn more "effective" than other units that can accomplish the same feats as her? Why do you keep bringing up "better growths" instead of concrete applications of a unit's stats?

Have you seen her stats? That's why it's late, at that point, she should have 14 STR at least and 35 HP, as well a 60% SPD growth rather than a 40%. Her stats aren't good enough to compete with Lyn as a result. As for Lyn's promotion, she didn't need it for the chapters before it, which Louise can't participate on to begin with. Lyn is there for way more chapters than Louise is, that's precisely why it's late. Louise has less STR, being able to double changes nothing.

Pent is good enough, but Lyn is faster and can use Brave Bow as well later on which is more effective, since it attacks 4 times. Double damage with bows is still just as good, and Pent is still only one unit, He's good, but his growths means that he shouldn't see combat as often.

I didn't ignore it, I adressed it as well, since he's still slow and not as durable as Hector who already has 17 DEF by that point he joins. He may be able to deal with regular wyverns, but I have better units for that that deserve that deployment slots.

Because Lyn contributes for way more chapters than he does, and I'm not wasting experience on Rath when Rebecca is already lv 15 or so by the time he joins. Lyn is lv 17 or so by then, so he's not going to better than her anytime soon.

 They can replicate, some of them inferiorly at that. Of the ones that you mentioned, only Pent and Geitz have merit, specially Geitz, since he's virtually Lyn with axes instead of swords.

I bring up better growths, because the higher a character grows the better. Not to mention that the more SPD, the better Lyn dodgetanks, specially coupled with her impressive LUK.

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Pent: Good mage, but he doesn't cause effective damage which bows does, he's also not as fast nor can dodgetank as well as Lyn does, as well having less HP and barely passable growths.

 

He doesn't need to is the thing though, magic is far better on wyverns, who have low res mind you rather than hitting def for 2x which may not even be that much considering the def of wyvern units....

Barely passable? while it's true that his growths aren't stellar, he has such broken bases that he can last on those for quite a long time.

Seriously, how does this keep getting mentioned, it implies that bows were any good in the gba games in the first place. (hint: They were not) And lyn getting them is really just pouring salt in an open wound.

10 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Your numerical proof of yours shows that Lyn is better though. How does that even count as proof when it opposes your view? I will repeat the same claims as long they remain unrefuted, since you didn't refute them so far.

Listen we get it you like lyn, so do I  (at least more than most apparently ) but i'm at least objective enough to say that  she has many glaring flaws, but you seem to have put her on this grand pillar held together by heavy favoritism and bias.  Lyn is not the best character in blazing blade, that honor goes to units like Marcus, Florina, Sain, Pent etc.

There's liking a unit, but also acknowledging their faults, and then there's complete blind bias  and denial of any criticism or valid points brought up. You seem to lean towards the latter. So many people in this thread have brought up pretty solid evidence that lyn is not as good as you think she is. Yet every time you are challenged with these points you revert to the same old argument i've seen you use in different threads outside of this one.

 

Guess it just proves the age old added “ignorance is bliss” to be true.

Edit:

"Wrong. I will lend you a ear, but I will have the final word in whatever one's advice or opinion is helpfull or not."

-DiogoJorge

what the actual hell is the point of lending someone an ear if you're only going to tell them that they are wrong. Thats like walking an old lady across the street just so you can shove her into the next moving car. It doesnt make sense and is hypocritical.

Note: I would have just quoted this but it doesnt seem you can put quotes in while editing a post.

Edited by Sage of the Mist
added more info
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Considering that Lyn has better stats by midgame than Marcus in key areas, it's really a case of 2+2 = 4, if we are to use mathematic equations for comparison. Blade Lord Lyn > Marcus at lv 5-8, wich is usually the level he is at by then.

Because it's not like Lyn's defensive failings and swordlock in a lance dominated game bite her in the rear, now is it? Also, Marcus still has weapon triangle control, which Lyn can never duplicate. And I dare say you're sandbagging Marcus. About the only thing she really has on him is overkill speed.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because it's not like Lyn's defensive failings and swordlock in a lance dominated game bite her in the rear, now is it? Also, Marcus still has weapon triangle control, which Lyn can never duplicate. And I dare say you're sandbagging Marcus. About the only thing she really has on him is overkill speed.

 

 

If Lyn  has defensive failings as a Blade Lord, lances were rarely a issue for her, specially with Lancereaver if necessary. so does Marcus with his 10 DEF and 15% growth. Weapon triangle doesn't amount to much when you can only use 1 weapon per turn and when you cannot double as often with them. That's why Kent is superior to Lyn,but not Marcus, since Kent has good SPD.

Lyn is only 2 points away from his DEF by then and has a better HP growth and dodgetanks better, as well doubles enemies that Marcus can't due to his 25% SPD growth.

Correction, better dodgetanking, better SPD, better growths, better RES, better STR by lategame as well, since Marcus' best value is 20 while Lyn reaches 21 easier than he does. It doesn't matter what you dare say, Marcus isn't getting to any particular high level unless you are sandbagging Kent and/or Sain, even Lowen deserves to get more kills than Marcus does.

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

If Lyn  has defensive failings as a Blade Lord, so does Marcus with his 10 DEF and 15% growth. Lyn is only 2 points away from that by then and has a better HP growth and dodgetanks better, as well doubles enemies that Marcus can't due to his 25% SPD growth.

Bolded: Because mercenaries, myrmidons, valkyries, heroes and swordmasters make up soooo much of the enemy, right? Oh wait, they don't. Anyway, dodgetanking isn't that reliable except in certain situations, and it often relies on terrain.

The rest: Her HP growth is all of 5% better. And Lyn's defense growth is not much better than Marcus's.

15 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Correction, better dodgetanking, better SPD, better growths, better RES, better STR by lategame as well, since Marcus' best value is 20 while Lyn reaches 21 easier than he does. It doesn't matter what you dare say, Marcus isn't getting to any particular high level unless you are sandbagging Kent and/or Sain, even Lowen deserves to get more kills than Marcus does.

Dodgetanking often relies on terrain to work, and with Lyn being sword locked... yeah. Her extra speed is often overkill, because most enemies tend to weigh themselves down, not to mention not being that great statistically in the first place. Her better strength might not even materialize (by 20/20, she only has a .5 edge on Marcus, ergo it might as well not exist), and is offset by her weapon choice in the first place. 

Bold: And Lyn getting the kills she needs just to catch up to Marcus isn't sandbagging them? Nice double standard there.

Edited by Shadow Mir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Have you seen her stats?

I have.

Have you seen that, in addition, I have seen and taken into account enemy stats? Do you understand that concept?
Do you understand why the difference between 17 Spd and 20 Spd is a lot less impactful in FE7 than it was in FE6?
Do you understand why bows as a whole are significantly worse in FE7 than in FE6 or DSFE? Can ou figure out whether or not that statement would still be true with a x3 multiplier?
Do you know what "overkill" means?
Do you know why Rutger, despite same-ish stats, is considered to be way, way better than Guy?
Could you tell me what the most significant Speed benchmark is in this game?
What is the most significant arithmetic operation in every single Fire Emblem game?

Are you able to argue on a higher level than just "this is a big number"? I'm still waiting for a post of yours in which you demonstrate more than just basic knowledge about a) this game and b) numbers in general.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...