Is Lyn better than Marcus/is Marcus good/ is Lyn good

[ping]

29 minutes ago, Edgelord said:

Who would win? A horde of angry internet denizens vs one stubborn boi.

Stubbort boi, of course. Just like Croatia won the World Cup, because they scored a goal and France did not. I have very much football experience (I've started playing before Mbappé was even born!) and I can tell with conviction: When it looked like France had scored, they did not play how football is supposed to be played.

14 minutes ago, Aut said:

Spoiler

Also I wouldn’t be surprised if I made this same argument before and he just ignored it, but whatever

 

Well, when I gave the numbers showing that Louise is better than Lyn at killing the wyverns in Unfulfilled Heart, he answered that Louise is worse than Lyn because her bases are just unacceptable for her jointime.

Can't quite remember what he had to say about Pent, but I wouldn't be surprised if having him clear out five wyverns in a single EP would be improper play. I do remember that the effective damage on a Steel Bow is totally more impactful than the Def/Res gap on wyverns, though  

€dit: To try out my ability to read the future: I expect the answer to your argument to be "Kent is still better because he will grow while Marcus will remain largely the same"  

Edited July 24, 2018 by ping

[eclipse]

15 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Seems like your team is somewhat passable in terms of power, but I see some units whose stats make little sense though, Hector being lv 7 Great Lord for instance, he should be lv 18 or so, if you only had 10 turns to spare then that's alright and  I thank you for your effort into posting this.

Once I  make my S-rank playthrough after finishing my regular playthrough, It will show you how to do a more balanced playstyle between effectiveness and efficiency and see if it might be of some help to you.

 

. . .did you just talk down to someone who's already done a S-rank run?  It's not like you get any shinier baubles after hitting S.

[MacLovin]

17 minutes ago, eclipse said:

. . .did you just talk down to someone who's already done a S-rank run?  It's not like you get any shinier baubles after hitting S.

i honestly don't know why he's still yapping.

it's less of the content and more of the stubborn, faux-authoritative tone he's attempting to take. It's kinda detrimental if anyone who actually wanted good advice for FE7 went in and read his stuff.

on topic though and in all seriousness, is Lyn even comparable to dart in a non LHM no-turtling playstyle?

Edited July 25, 2018 by Mister Rogers

[DiogoJorge]

8 hours ago, eclipse said:

. . .did you just talk down to someone who's already done a S-rank run?  It's not like you get any shinier baubles after hitting S.

And what's wrong with that? I too did hit S, but Instead of rushing for the sake of rushing, I rushed to have the S rank and didn't care about having the lowest turn possible, since there's no profit in me for doing so.

As I said before, I will just record another S rank run and show to you guys once it's done.

Quote

 honestly don't know why he's still yapping.

it's less of the content and more of the stubborn, faux-authoritative tone he's attempting to take. It's kinda detrimental if anyone who actually wanted good advice for FE7 went in and read his stuff.

on topic though and in all seriousness, is Lyn even comparable to dart in a non LHM no-turtling playstyle?

Not really, since I give good advice.

More than comparable, she outclasses him, specially if we go by A-S rank runs, since Dart is forced to not promote due to the very expensive Ocean Seal. Heaven's seal on the other hand is cheap enough and more than makes up for it in promotion gains. Also doesn't help that Dart joins slightly underleveled.

Edited July 25, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, DiogoJorge said:

And what's wrong with that? I too did hit S, but Instead of rushing for the sake of rushing, I rushed to have the S rank and didn't care about having the lowest turn possible, since there's no profit in me for doing so.

As I said before, I will just record another S rank run and show to you guys once it's done.

Do you know how AMAZINGLY VALIDATED you feel when everyone's yelling at you about how you're wrong, and your opinion is wrong, and all of that jazz?  Difference is that unlike an opinion, an S-rank run is objective - complete everything within X parameters, and you get it.  You don't get anything for doing it "better" short of bragging rights.  And from what I know of Bal, "bragging rights" isn't his motivation.

I will await that recording.  Please let me know once it's done.

[DiogoJorge]

19 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Do you know how AMAZINGLY VALIDATED you feel when everyone's yelling at you about how you're wrong, and your opinion is wrong, and all of that jazz?  Difference is that unlike an opinion, an S-rank run is objective - complete everything within X parameters, and you get it.  You don't get anything for doing it "better" short of bragging rights.  And from what I know of Bal, "bragging rights" isn't his motivation.

I will await that recording.  Please let me know once it's done.

Validated? How so?

I never said that he was bad, as far as I see it, he's about my equal. If bragging rights is all there is to it, then why bother doing it in even less turns? Aim for S rank with the least amount of turns to spare as possible. If you can manage to do so in 317 turns exactly, than you would be my superior in everyway.

Sure thing. It will take some time, probably some months, until then.

Edited July 25, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[ping]

"If I fulfill this random, pointless criteria that I just made up, then I will be the smartest, handsomest, bestest, and modestest FE player in the entire world."

I'd say that Dart is actually one of the better potential XP sinks in the game, since he's strong enough to be fielded unpromoted even fairly late in the game. I got the full 1200 XP into mine in only four chapters (~100 in ch.19 + ~450 in ch.21 + ~250 in ch.25 + ~400 in ch.28x) without too much problems. As long as there's large groups of axe-wielding enemies around (in my case the flyers in 21/28x and the cav swarm in 25), it's pretty easy to have him collect a few kills. In my case, him fending off the flyers coming from the south in 28x mostly on his own (he needed 2 physics, iirc) was actually helpful in its own right.

[Slumber]

8 minutes ago, ping said:

"If I fulfill this random, pointless criteria that I just made up, then I will be the smartest, handsomest, bestest, and modestest FE player in the entire world."

I'd say that Dart is actually one of the better potential XP sinks in the game, since he's strong enough to be fielded unpromoted even fairly late in the game. I got the full 1200 XP into mine in only four chapters (~100 in ch.19 + ~450 in ch.21 + ~250 in ch.25 + ~400 in ch.28x) without too much problems. As long as there's large groups of axe-wielding enemies around (in my case the flyers in 21/28x and the cav swarm in 25), it's pretty easy to have him collect a few kills. In my case, him fending off the flyers coming from the south in 28x mostly on his own (he needed 2 physics, iirc) was actually helpful in its own right.

If Dart joined like, 2 chapters earlier, had 1 more speed at base and the Ocean Seal wasn't total horseshit for no reason, he'd be a pretty great unit. A little squishy and perhaps too reliant on his crits, but he'd be a good bruiser. As he is though, yeah. For ranked runs, he exists to be an EXP sponge, then benched once he's fulfilled his duties of boosting your EXP rank.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Slumber

[Just call me AL]

On 7/24/2018 at 6:51 AM, DiogoJorge said:

I do think before endgame though. That's precisely why I use growth units. Since there's Battle Before Dawn, Night of Farewells, Cog of Destiny, Four Fanged Offense (Linus) etc...

Each of which a unit with good if not spectacular bases can help trivialize.

Quote

Not really. I don't drag the team down, on contrary, I make sure the team is propely built instead of dragging the team by overelying on Marcus, it doesn't take skill to use Marcus, to have a proper team does.

To paraphrase an FE player by the name of Naglfar, your team ends up WEAKER simply because you choose not to use Marcus, who, despite your complaining, still grows enough to be usable for practically the whole game. And it's not like the amount of EXP is so limited that you can't level up your units when you actually use him liberally. And because he remains so strong for so long, does it really matter if someone, like say, Rebecca or Eliwood, ends up getting set back because of it? A good player would know what to do to compensate for such a setback should one happen. 

Like, come on. How many times must this be said to you until you decide to take your fingers out of your ears and actually understand this?

Quote

If it's so obvious, but I still give it, is probably because you sound like you don't get it. Considering that I am reading here, I should state those pieces of advices, regardless if it's obvious or not.

Except, and this is with consideration given to your gameplay videos, and your complaints about the Tactics ranking specifically, you are in no position to do so. Simply put: How can such an unskilled player such as you be trusted to give out helpful advice?

Quote

And what's wrong with that,? 

Wrong with what? Being having a "holier than thou" attitude? Not wanting to learn how to improve your skills? Not realizing that you're wrong on some things, and are changing your views accordingly? There's plenty of stuff wrong with those. I'm not going to go into why, but at the same time, "why" should be self-explanatory.

Also, how arrogant do you have to be to say "I will consider this guy to be my superior if he beats the game within X amount of turns", and not notice that he had already beaten the game in 3 turns less than the amount you want him to beat the game in?

Quote

Mental gymnastics? It takes little effort to state what is common sense to me. I will give advice whetever you like it or not, I'm not pointing a gun at your head to heed it. I am a veteran, and thus I will dispense advice if I feel like they need to hear it and I won't let anyone stop me from doing so. I don't know this shockgod guy, but I do know that I'm a FE veteran, that's the proper label to give to someone as me. Anything less is wrong by default.

Please. A real veteran wouldn't be complaining about certain game mechanics being "bugged". And would instead, work to overcome the obstacles involved with S Ranking the game instead of just giving up upon finding the Tactics ranking too hard to accomplish, despite the fact that the game itself can be beat in a fraction of how long the game expects you to get a 5 star Tactics ranking. You're plenty of things, to be sure. But a veteran you are not. No amount of time spent playing this game can change that if you lack the skills to back up such a claim. 

Quote

The problem with Marcus is...

And this is an example of what I mean by mental gymnastics. @ping outlines how you're going about in performing mental gymnastics, and even brings up another example of mental gymnastics that you created. Namely, saying that Louise's bases are "unacceptable for her jointime", despite the fact that she's performing more strongly than Lyn is by then, even when assuming that the latter takes the first Heaven Seal. And @Aut even pointed out your flaws in your use of mental gymnastics by pointing out that your posted stats actually help solidify Marcus' superiority.

And in case you want to know what I mean by "mental gymnastics", Google it.

Quote

Balcerzark's team wasn't what I would call powerfull, only decent, barely so in terms of power. 

You do realize that he beat the game with the team that you're dismissing as "only decent", right?

Quote

Why have both, when Sain, Kent and Lowen are better than Marcus? That's already 3 Paladins, more than you will ever need.

Don't be ridiculous. There's no such thing as having "more paladins than you will need". If a class is good, why wouldn't you want more of it? Besides, this game's not on the DS. So, sorry, but there's no class limit.

Quote

Marcus is just as waste of a deployment slot at that point even if we just take into account Kent and Sain only, since you will want your mages, Lyn, Raven, Rebecca, Serra, Lucius and possibly bench Guy in favor of Pent if one wants an extra mage. 

Yet more mental gymnastics over here. One of those has promotion-dependent utility. Two are mediocre. One is outright bad. But yet, they're somehow more "worth using" than the best unit in the game? 

Quote

Just those units alone take all or almost all deployment slots in a lot of chapters, sometimes even forcing you to bench Lyn in favor of Raven in chapter 18H.

You say that like you think Lyn's a better unit than Raven, which she isn't.

Quote

Not at all, the more you rush it, the more effort it takes, specially if you have to drag yourself down by using units like Marcus and Louise.

The fact that you're implying that using Marcus or Louise slow you down in any fashion only shows that you don't know what "drag yourself down" means.

Quote

If you are going to use pre-promotes, use good ones like Geitz and Pent who at least have some growths, specially

And you are laughably forgetting that "good prepromotes" includes Marcus and Louise. In fact, the only truly bad prepromotes in FE7 are Karel and Karla. I would also say Renault, but his own utility prevents him from being outright bad.

Quote

Geitz who is pretty much Lyn with axes.

Except for the fact that he's outright better. Doesn't have to take an item to promote or use bows extensively just to start to use B rank Bows, and can actually take a few hits, for starters.

Quote

They are looking to make it faster not to make it easier, but to further challenge themselves

Except the easiest way to do things in FE is often the fastest. This is true for basically any FE. 

Quote

I on the other hand I'm not interested on it, since there's no profit in me to do it faster.

Getting better at the game, and earning actual qualifications, isn't profit enough? Lol. 

Quote

But your bosses aren't demanding you to be ridiculously fast do they? Because that's what happens in those LTC runs.

Um... No it isn't. You only find it ridiculous because you simply lack the skill and aim to even try for such a playthrough.

Quote

That's not what I meant in that phrase though. 10 turns to spare, refers to Balcerzark having close to the requirement limit, which as I said before is a good thing, since the more of those turns you consume to make your team more powerfull and well equipped, the better. Just on the Ostia's defense chapter, Hector should easily gain levels due to his great DEF. He doesn't need too many turns when there are enemies crawling everywhere. By the end of it, he would be around lv 10 Great Lord or so, specially since he already gains 3-4 or so levels in the Thunder Axe chapter.

Except reinforcements appear to the south of Sands of Time, and will stop appearing once someone, preferably Harken during then, has taken care of Denning. Hector won't be anywhere near the south of the map due to his movement. Nor would he get enough EXP from unpromoted enemies to gain 3-4 levels in The Berserker.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Just call me AL

[Re: The weirdo.]

kek lyn is bad. there is a great youtube channel and player on this very forum called @Mekkah who you can look up on youtube, that explains in a short series exactly why lyn is not as worthwhile to use as other units. i would probably write a long block of text explaining why lyn is bad, but i am not in the business of arguing with an ATM that spits out pennies, that thinks its spitting out gold. also people have already explained why, in other long blocks of text.

good job @DiogoJorge and bless you, you brilliant man.

Edited July 25, 2018 by (s)ad touch

[Koumal8]

On 24/7/2018 at 12:51 PM, DiogoJorge said:

specially Geitz who is pretty much Lyn with axes

  May I say that saying this right here shows how much you still have to understand about FE in general to be considered a good player? First, promoted Lyn reaches based Geitz levels of durability at 20/18 (do you have any idea how late that is into the game? we know Geitz joins late too, but no THAT late; is Lyn even reaching 20/18 in efficient ranked?), but most importantly: Geitz has hand-axe access for 1-2 range in an EP heavy game (which Lyn doesn't have), starts off solid with great weapon ranks (Lyn doesn't) and takes up 0 resources to get to that point. Do you even know what opportunity-cost is? Do you know what makes (most, not all) prepromotes, Marcus/Geitz/Pent/Louise included, good?

  That quote right there shows how little you know understand about opportunity-cost, how little you know about fe7 units and their battle performance at various stages of the game and how little you value base stats and weapon ranks because "muh growths"

  Also, let me point out something to you, and this is important:

On 24/7/2018 at 12:51 PM, DiogoJorge said:

Lv 5 Marcus Paladin (the more likely level for him to be at by then, assuming one uses him as one should)

  One "should" play the game THE WAY THAT IS MOST FUN TO THEM, not the way you tell them, there is no "intended" way to play the game, no way you're "supposed" to use certain units. You're the only one that insists on using this word "should", while plenty of other experienced FE players here (many of them as proud as you are in their skills) debating with you have never even implied that: all we're trying to prove is that, in an efficient, fast-paced playstyle (not necessarily aiming to achieve 5* rank), some units (mainly prepromotes like Marcus/Pent/Luoise etc...) are better than others (namely Lyn and many other growth units) because they make the game considerably easier to the player than those growthies, because they start out decent-to-good and remain relevant till endgame, BUT we're not telling anyone that they "SHOULD" be used, there is no way they're "intended" to be used. So just stop implying that you are the only one playing the game "as it should be played". Saying stuff like "assuming one uses him as one should" does nothing but irritate people and make you look like someone not worth wasting one's time. 

[Hanes]

2 hours ago, (s)ad touch said:

kek lyn is bad. there is a great youtube channel and player on this very forum called @Mekkah who you can look up on youtube, that explains in a short series exactly why lyn is not as worthwhile to use as other units. i would probably write a long block of text explaining why lyn is bad, but i am not in the business of arguing with an ATM that spits out pennies, that thinks its spitting out gold. also people have already explained why, in other long blocks of text.

good job @DiogoJorge and bless you, you brilliant man.

He actually supposedly saw the video but didn't agree with it.

[Mekkah]

Wow, 10 pages of feeding the troll. Why are you guys even bothering? Even if DiogoJeorge really believes what he says, do you really think the 11th page is going to make the difference and let him see the light?

[DisobeyedCargo]

1 minute ago, Mekkah said:

Wow, 10 pages of feeding the troll. Why are you guys even bothering? Even if DiogoJeorge really believes what he says, do you really think the 11th page is going to make the difference and let him see the light?

I don't. I know  to turn to you/Dondon/other experts on FE7 for advice, which is why I stopped arguing a long time ago in favor of watching this play out 

[MacLovin]

 

6 hours ago, (s)ad touch said:

kek lyn is bad. there is a great youtube channel and player on this very forum called @Mekkah who you can look up on youtube, that explains in a short series exactly why lyn is not as worthwhile to use as other units. i would probably write a long block of text explaining why lyn is bad, but i am not in the business of arguing with an ATM that spits out pennies, that thinks its spitting out gold. also people have already explained why, in other long blocks of text.

good job @DiogoJorge and bless you, you brilliant man.

why would you bother pinging the guy?

 

8 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

And what's wrong with that? I too did hit S, but Instead of rushing for the sake of rushing, I rushed to have the S rank and didn't care about having the lowest turn possible, since there's no profit in me for doing so.

As I said before, I will just record another S rank run and show to you guys once it's done.

Not really, since I give good advice.

More than comparable, she outclasses him, specially if we go by A-S rank runs, since Dart is forced to not promote due to the very expensive Ocean Seal. Heaven's seal on the other hand is cheap enough and more than makes up for it in promotion gains. Also doesn't help that Dart joins slightly underleveled.

Ya know, I'm done feeding trolls. It's obvious that you're delusional.

 

It's obvious you're living in your own little world.

[Re: The weirdo.]

you see @Mister Rogers, i actually public status messaged him the line "kek lyn" and the convo is pretty dumb from there. short but stupid. anyway, just wanted to make a mark i suppose.

[Florete]

7 hours ago, Mekkah said:

Wow, 10 pages of feeding the troll. Why are you guys even bothering? Even if DiogoJeorge really believes what he says, do you really think the 11th page is going to make the difference and let him see the light?

I think somewhere along the way it became less about him and more for everyone else's satisfaction.

[MacLovin]

5 hours ago, Florete said:

I think somewhere along the way it became less about him and more for everyone else's satisfaction.

let's be fair, it's been kind of a long time since this kinda shit's happened here without someone stepping in or someone loosing their shit.

[DiogoJorge]

21 hours ago, (s)ad touch said:

kek lyn is bad. there is a great youtube channel and player on this very forum called @Mekkah who you can look up on youtube, that explains in a short series exactly why lyn is not as worthwhile to use as other units. i would probably write a long block of text explaining why lyn is bad, but i am not in the business of arguing with an ATM that spits out pennies, that thinks its spitting out gold. also people have already explained why, in other long blocks of text.

good job @DiogoJorge and bless you, you brilliant man.

I already have seen that video long before and I disagree with him. I have also seen his pitfall videos which are either an hit and miss, he's wrong about quite a few things there as well.

Considering that I'm a FE veteran, my advice is worth gold no matter what you say. And I already explained why they are mistaken.

 

Have a nice day and don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Quote

Ya know, I'm done feeding trolls. It's obvious that you're delusional.

 

It's obvious you're living in your own little world.

 

I don't troll though. 

Not really, if you knew how to use Lyn propely you would't be saying that. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[ping]

22 hours ago, Slumber said:

If Dart joined like, 2 chapters earlier, had 1 more speed at base and the Ocean Seal wasn't total horseshit for no reason, he'd be a pretty great unit. A little squishy and perhaps too reliant on his crits, but he'd be a good bruiser. As he is though, yeah. For ranked runs, he exists to be an EXP sponge, then benched once he's fulfilled his duties of boosting your EXP rank.

+2 Con to throw Hand Axes unimpeded before promotion would have worked wonders, too. But yeah, as is, Dart in a normal playthrough is one of those units who join a bit underpowered and end up good, but not great - which just isn't all that impressive by FE7's standards. At least, money isn't really an issue outside of Rankings, so using the Ocean Seal shouldn't matter all that much in the grand scheme of things.

Dart is honestly an example of why I think that FE7's unit balancing (outside of Marcus' OPness) is really good. Unit quality is still diverse enough that it's a meaningful choice what characters to bring, but almost every character can get to a point where they're at least doing fine. Even Nino, although HHM with its ultra-magical CoD is quite a dealbreaker for her. The only characters that I would consider hopeless in that regard are Wallace (AK/General really isn't that hot anymore when he joins) and Karla.

[Koumal8]

2 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Considering that I'm a FE veteran, my advice is worth gold no matter what you say. And I already explained why they are mistaken.

  I'm good because I say I'm good is your strongest argument? Quite the ego you got there bro for someone who can't even be bothered to reply to people quoting and trying to have a debate with you. Have a nice day and don't let the door hit you on your way out you "FE veteran"

[SavageVolug]

29 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

  I'm good because I say I'm good is your strongest argument? Quite the ego you got there bro for someone who can't even be bothered to reply to people quoting and trying to have a debate with you. Have a nice day and don't let the door hit you on your way out you "FE veteran"

THIS! YES! My thoughts exactly, he isn't the ONLY one who has played FE7 or any other FE game for that matter multiple times and as a result developed a prefferred playstyle and approach. I've played FE10 probably close to 10 times, that doesn't mean I'm an "expert" on the game. Do I know the game well? Sure. Could I give some advice and recommondations? Yes. I consider Edward to be one of the better myrms in the game along with Stefen but that revolves mainly around that I love myrms with an actual Str stat or growth.  But I'm not an expert on Radiant Dawn, there's too many variables.  Sometimes Nolan gets speed screwed, Aran might get lucky on leveling up speed, etc, etc. And a similar thing can be said for EVERY FE game in the series. Though I have enjoyed reading other peoples' analysises and breakdowns of why X unit is actually better than someone is claiming or why Y unit is not as good as said person is saying.

[Parrhesia]

Hey sluts it's 2010 again look at this shiny bright unranked tier list wow a vriska avatar that sure fuckin dates that post lmfao and oh boy here's a ranked tier list too we have been arguing this shit for literal years because none of us have a life and these are the conclusions we came to and are they the most up to date well i'm sure i do not give a shit do not necro the threads go look there for thousands of reasons as to why Lyn is checks notes vastly inferior to Marcus

[DiogoJorge]

1 hour ago, Koumal8 said:

  I'm good because I say I'm good is your strongest argument? Quite the ego you got there bro for someone who can't even be bothered to reply to people quoting and trying to have a debate with you. Have a nice day and don't let the door hit you on your way out you "FE veteran"

Considering that I A and S ranked before and stated it here, I'm pretty sure that I already made my case before I even said that. So yeah, I'm good an nothing you say could ever change that.

I already did so before, I replied to them as I should. 

26 minutes ago, Parrhesia said:

Hey sluts it's 2010 again look at this shiny bright unranked tier list wow a vriska avatar that sure fuckin dates that post lmfao and oh boy here's a ranked tier list too we have been arguing this shit for literal years because none of us have a life and these are the conclusions we came to and are they the most up to date well i'm sure i do not give a shit do not necro the threads go look there for thousands of reasons as to why Lyn is checks notes vastly inferior to Marcus

Right... I have "thousands" of reasons why Marcus is inferior to Lyn then. Inferior growths, worse potential, slow and can't even tank to make up for his low SPD, steals experience from better units, has worse supports, doesn't have a effective weapon (those he can use weight a ton, specially the horseslayer) and there are around a dozen and half of units better than him, while Lyn has units better than her in the single digits. Face it, Marcus all he's truely good for is early game, beyond that, his use is mostly mild by midgame and mediocre by late game.

Also, I can barely understand  what you are saying with the way you are phrasing your words.

Edited July 26, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Parrhesia]

22 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Right... I have "thousands" of reasons why Marcus is inferior to Lyn then. Inferior growths, worse potential, slow and can't even tank to make up for his low SPD, steals experience from better units, has worse supports, doesn't have a effective weapon (those he can use weight a ton, specially the horseslayer)

none of these things matter