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Is Lyn better than Marcus/is Marcus good/ is Lyn good


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It's stuff like this that really makes me shake my head at the Fire Emblem community at times. 11 pages debating how one unit is better / worse than the other, trying desperately to come up with "objective" reasoning for it (I'm sick of that word by now, since it's only a buzzword used with the intent to make one's own opinion seem superior to another's (kind of like other buzzwords that only exist to silence opinions one doesn't agree with, which for the sake of everyone's sanity shall remain unnamed)). The fact that people have multiple ways to S-rank FE7 only proves that there isn't a "perfect" or "correct" way to play. The only "correct" way to play a game is the way in which the player gets the most fun experience out of it and that is a VERY subjective thing.
Please keep in mind that subjectivity is not a bad thing as some people like to make it out to be. If there weren't contrasting opinions on stuff, interacting with people would be boring as all hell and I would have even less of a reason to try and get in contact with other folks.

Opinions are - by definition - subjective. I know people tend to forget about that little tidbit these days or try to deny it even exists for whatever reason (which would be nothing short of complete stupidity and / or arrogance), but it's there and it will always be there. As such, opinions can not be "objectively wrong" (because even the sky will not be blue to someone who is (colour)blind).
This extends to reviews as well, by the way.

I don't remember his name, but there was a philosopher who said that humans, by their very nature, cannot be objective or have an objective look at things, because everything we believe to be true is based on personal experiences and things other humans have taught us - themselves subjective beings.

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25 minutes ago, Parrhesia said:

none of these things matter

 

Yes they do.

 

18 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

It's stuff like this that really makes me shake my head at the Fire Emblem community at times. 11 pages debating how one unit is better / worse than the other, trying desperately to come up with "objective" reasoning for it (I'm sick of that word by now, since it's only a buzzword used with the intent to make one's own opinion seem superior to another's (kind of like other buzzwords that only exist to silence opinions one doesn't agree with, which for the sake of everyone's sanity shall remain unnamed)). The fact that people have multiple ways to S-rank FE7 only proves that there isn't a "perfect" or "correct" way to play. The only "correct" way to play a game is the way in which the player gets the most fun experience out of it and that is a VERY subjective thing.
Please keep in mind that subjectivity is not a bad thing as some people like to make it out to be. If there weren't contrasting opinions on stuff, interacting with people would be boring as all hell and I would have even less of a reason to try and get in contact with other folks.

Opinions are - by definition - subjective. I know people tend to forget about that little tidbit these days or try to deny it even exists for whatever reason (which would be nothing short of complete stupidity and / or arrogance), but it's there and it will always be there. As such, opinions can not be "objectively wrong" (because even the sky will not be blue to someone who is (colour)blind).
This extends to reviews as well, by the way.

I don't remember his name, but there was a philosopher who said that humans, by their very nature, cannot be objective or have an objective look at things, because everything we believe to be true is based on personal experiences and things other humans have taught us - themselves subjective beings.

 I agree with the first part, the part about being there many ways to S rank the game, after all that's precisely why this argument even exists. If it was truely objective, then I wouldn't be questioning it in the first place.

The rest, not so much. There are some things that are objective like terrorists and Hitler being evil (they killed inocents and good people). There are things in the world that are always the same no matter how different you see it. A colour blind person can't see certain colours, but they exist all the same.

But that's another matter altogether and arguing over it would only derail this topic and thus we should leave it at that and not talk about it further, lest we want hostilities to rise again.

EDIT: How does one delete post? I double posted by accident.

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13 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

It's stuff like this that really makes me shake my head at the Fire Emblem community at times. 11 pages debating how one unit is better / worse than the other, trying desperately to come up with "objective" reasoning for it

look fam

i love wil. wil is great. i started playing fe7 in like 2008 and i got to wil and he was this chatty teal motherfucker with great hair and he was just happy to be here. and the last couple times i played fe7 i generally figured out that the trick to wil was to get that steel axe brigand and just... just fuckin let wil at him. it takes like six turns. after that, and given, you know, a fair few snipes down the line that would be infinitely easier to just hand to sain or kent on EP because fe7 is an EP-driven game because it's not very good, he can generally get to a point where he's ready to go by the time he rejoins in hector mode.

as a unit, wil fucking sucks. using wil is slower and more dangerous than not using wil. eventually, after much love and care, wil will be very strong, much like literally any other unit in the game given love and care because, correctly, that is how FE works. i am having fun doing it because, fuck yeah, wil is a fun unit when he gets going! but wil is Bad. he slows you down, he increases your chances of failure, he is weaker than almost every other unit you have, and, yes, this is true objectively.

you can't quantify fun! fun is what's important! if someone tries to stop me using wil or, hell, stop the OP using lyn, then they should shut the fuck up! but it is actually pretty easy to quantify how useful a unit is at ensuring you clear the game without grinding on immobile steel axe bosses.

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25 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

The rest, not so much. There are some things that are objective like terrorists and Hitler being evil (they killed inocents and good people). There are things in the world that are always the same no matter how different you see it. A colour blind person can't see certain colours, but they exist all the same.

Here's a YouTube comment I found that pretty much explains what I mean:
"Wether [sic!] something is good or bad depends on our society's moral rules, created by us at a certain time. Vikings considered war and killing to be good, and weakness to be bad. Some terrorist consider that killing people is ok. Nazis considered that they were superior, that was the truth for them, and Hitler thought of himself as the good guy. They were fighting for the right cause on their eyes. Murdering was considered to be morally correct in some societies. So what defines what is really good or bad? Only our subjective truth, defined by the time period and the culture in wich [sic!] we are born. If you had been born on a different culture at a different time period you would have different morals and different convictions about life."
The relevant video which does a good job explaining what I meant when I said objectivity isn't a thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roxzqaq0IMs

Edited by DragonFlames
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Talking about who the best/worst units are is exactly as pointless as every other discussion about a video game. All of my posts in this topic have been made because I like to dig around to check what Things a unit can and cannot do, and how units compare to each others in certain scenarios. And I would even say that some of the posts in this thread have been interesting for me to read.

€: Friggin' sophists :rolleyes:

€²: I didn't expect Diogo to change his stance after his, like, fourth post that I've seen. It's fairly obvious that he works under the assumption "I AM RIGHT" and that the facts will have to bend and creak, if necessary.

Edited by ping
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for the record the angle 'objectivity doesn't exist' stops here lmao, that's not at all productive to the topic

 

thanks in advance

 

this isn't up for debate

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1 minute ago, Integrity said:

for the record the angle 'objectivity doesn't exist' stops here lmao, that's not at all productive to the topic

 

Plus postmodernism tends to leave society in the dark about what it should do. It declares the old standards no longer sacred, without providing any sort of replacement. People are left wandering in the dark, when they may want guidance. And since everything is rendered relative, everything is equal and hence there is no reason to value anything more over anything else, including peace and tolerance. The result is that rather than chill things, postmodernism can open the doors for more conflict.

To put it in terms relevant here, why should I care to respect Lyn at all? She is trash, and if you think she is good, you're trash, because me finding you trash is equally valid as me not finding you trash, so why should I choose the latter? Of course you could then respond and force me to call Marcus trash and Lyn good, because that is equally valid as you not doing that. 

Does anyone seriously want more of that?

Postmodernism has its value, but relativity to the maximum degree should be restricted to the flow of spacetime and other scientific concepts. 

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27 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

It's stuff like this that really makes me shake my head at the Fire Emblem community at times. 11 pages debating how one unit is better / worse than the other, trying desperately to come up with "objective" reasoning for it (I'm sick of that word by now, since it's only a buzzword used with the intent to make one's own opinion seem superior to another's (kind of like other buzzwords that only exist to silence opinions one doesn't agree with, which for the sake of everyone's sanity shall remain unnamed)). The fact that people have multiple ways to S-rank FE7 only proves that there isn't a "perfect" or "correct" way to play. The only "correct" way to play a game is the way in which the player gets the most fun experience out of it and that is a VERY subjective thing.
Please keep in mind that subjectivity is not a bad thing as some people like to make it out to be. If there weren't contrasting opinions on stuff, interacting with people would be boring as all hell and I would have even less of a reason to try and get in contact with other folks.

Opinions are - by definition - subjective. I know people tend to forget about that little tidbit these days or try to deny it even exists for whatever reason (which would be nothing short of complete stupidity and / or arrogance), but it's there and it will always be there. As such, opinions can not be "objectively wrong" (because even the sky will not be blue to someone who is (colour)blind).
This extends to reviews as well, by the way.

I don't remember his name, but there was a philosopher who said that humans, by their very nature, cannot be objective or have an objective look at things, because everything we believe to be true is based on personal experiences and things other humans have taught us - themselves subjective beings.

  It's stuff like this that really makes me shake my head at people at times. This right here is probably even more irritating to me than fucking @DiogoJorge saying "I reply as I should" after never fucking answering my pings (except for once). Get this "there is no objectivity in life" shit out of my sight. This is FE. FE is a game. There are many ways to play a game, as such there are many ways to play FE. Every unit contributes in a different way in different playstyles. We, as rational human beings, can try to gauge how many each units contributes, after having set some metrics obviously (most often these metrics are hard mode efficiency metrics, other times they may be ltc metrics etc...). Sometimes reaching an unanimous verdict is hard, other times it's not. In this case right here, we're having difficulties agreeing on whether or not Lyn is a "better" unit than Marcus. So what? If you really believe there is no objectivity in life, that these discussions are pointless because "every opinion is subjective" then I'll take you the fuck on: come and prove to me that Sigurd is not an OBJECTIVELY SUPERIOR unit to Tiltyu in an FE4 efficient playthrough. Or that Perceval is not an OBJECTIVELY SUPERIOR unit to Wendy in an FE6 efficient playthrough. Having these discussions, however difficult it may be to reach a unanimous agreement, is fun, is interesting, is what some of like to do (provided the debate is actually clever and between experienced and open-minded players) and, which is is just as important, CAN BRING TO UNANIMOUS, OBJECTIVE conclusions (btw i know that unanimous does not equal objective). So. Shut. Up. 

  Every judgement is relative in the sense that it's relative to some pre-established criteria. We know what criteria we have in mind. Understood? I don't need a fucking lesson in relativism, it's a view on reality I know well enough to hate it and consider it one of humanity's greatest failures. But I vented enough, let's go back to FE. I'll concede to you if you can prove to me that Sigurd is not objectively superior to Tiltyu in a FE4 efficient playthrough, that Sigurd does not contribute more than Tiltyu in a FE4 efficient playthrough. I'll take you on.

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6 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

  It's stuff like this that really makes me shake my head at people at times. This right here is probably even more irritating to me than fucking @DiogoJorge saying "I reply as I should" after never fucking answering my pings (except for once). Get this "there is no objectivity in life" shit out of my sight. This is FE. FE is a game. There are many ways to play a game, as such there are many ways to play FE. Every unit contributes in a different way in different playstyles. We, as rational human beings, can try to gauge how many each units contributes, after having set some metrics obviously (most often these metrics are hard mode efficiency metrics, other times they may be ltc metrics etc...). Sometimes reaching an unanimous verdict is hard, other times it's not. In this case right here, we're having difficulties agreeing on whether or not Lyn is a "better" unit than Marcus. So what? If you really believe there is no objectivity in life, that these discussions are pointless because "every opinion is subjective" then I'll take you the fuck on: come and prove to me that Sigurd is not an OBJECTIVELY SUPERIOR unit to Tiltyu in an FE4 efficient playthrough. Or that Perceval is not an OBJECTIVELY SUPERIOR unit to Wendy in an FE6 efficient playthrough. Having these discussions, however difficult it may be to reach a unanimous agreement, is fun, is interesting, is what some of like to do (provided the debate is actually clever and between experienced and open-minded players) and, which is is just as important, CAN BRING TO UNANIMOUS, OBJECTIVE conclusions (btw i know that unanimous does not equal objective). So. Shut. Up. 

  Every judgement is relative in the sense that it's relative to some pre-established criteria. We know what criteria we have in mind. Understood? I don't need a fucking lesson in relativism, it's a view on reality I know well enough to hate it and consider it one of humanity's greatest failures. But I vented enough, let's go back to FE. I'll concede to you if you can prove to me that Sigurd is not objectively superior to Tiltyu in a FE4 efficient playthrough, that Sigurd does not contribute more than Tiltyu in a FE4 efficient playthrough. I'll take you on.

 

20 minutes ago, Integrity said:

for the record the angle 'objectivity doesn't exist' stops here lmao, that's not at all productive to the topic

 

thanks in advance

 

this isn't up for debate

 

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1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

 

Yes they do.

 

 I agree with the first part, the part about being there many ways to S rank the game, after all that's precisely why this argument even exists. If it was truely objective, then I wouldn't be questioning it in the first place.

The rest, not so much. There are some things that are objective like terrorists and Hitler being evil (they killed inocents and good people). There are things in the world that are always the same no matter how different you see it. A colour blind person can't see certain colours, but they exist all the same.

But that's another matter altogether and arguing over it would only derail this topic and thus we should leave it at that and not talk about it further, lest we want hostilities to rise again.

EDIT: How does one delete post? I double posted by accident.

but using Lyn makes the game less fun unless I'm particularly masochistic in that moment.

this shit's been argued before, stop acting like you're special.

 

Do I think Lyn is usable? Yes. 

Do  I think using Lyn is outright fun? Not unless I specifically want to use her for reasons.

Do I think your opinion matters to me? No it doesn't since if I really want fe7 advice for some fucking reason, despite knowing the game really well, I can just pop into the SF discord and ask many other people who've had similar or greater experience with the game.

as Parrhesia has stated, it's all about the fun you get in playing the game. Yes, there's ways to get the S rank in as tight a condition as possible. There's 0% growths runs, strict LTC conditions, and etc.

Me? I prefer the most fun way for me in the moment I play. Use whoever gets blessed or whatever faves there are.  I hate grinding and waiting to carefully escort fragile melee units so Lyn does not get much use in my playstyle. I've done draft runs where I've used her, but she doesn't contribute much of anything.  

but hey, go on this absolutely bizarre one-man crusade. you've convinced noone of anything relevant.

The sole reason some people are still here is just to fuck around, I can assure you that your opinion will be drowned if an actual new fe7 player comes looking for advice. Since, well, all we have to do is link videos by Mekkah or anyone who's discussed fe7 at length. Or we could link dondons fe7 unit ratings thread for sources.

 

nobody with actual ability at playing the game is going to argue Lyn>Marcus in any metric. Mekkah made two long ass videos outlining why in very easy to understand terms. Most people would understand his points since they're consistent. You haven't made a single consistent argument at all, yet you act arrogant as fuck and attempt the most childish bullshit I've seen in a loooong time.

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21 minutes ago, Mister Rogers said:

but using Lyn makes the game less fun unless I'm particularly masochistic in that moment.

this shit's been argued before, stop acting like you're special.

 

Do I think Lyn is usable? Yes. 

Do  I think using Lyn is outright fun? Not unless I specifically want to use her for reasons.

Do I think your opinion matters to me? No it doesn't since if I really want fe7 advice for some fucking reason, despite knowing the game really well, I can just pop into the SF discord and ask many other people who've had similar or greater experience with the game.

as Parrhesia has stated, it's all about the fun you get in playing the game. Yes, there's ways to get the S rank in as tight a condition as possible. There's 0% growths runs, strict LTC conditions, and etc.

Me? I prefer the most fun way for me in the moment I play. Use whoever gets blessed or whatever faves there are.  I hate grinding and waiting to carefully escort fragile melee units so Lyn does not get much use in my playstyle. I've done draft runs where I've used her, but she doesn't contribute much of anything.  

but hey, go on this absolutely bizarre one-man crusade. you've convinced noone of anything relevant.

The sole reason some people are still here is just to fuck around, I can assure you that your opinion will be drowned if an actual new fe7 player comes looking for advice. Since, well, all we have to do is link videos by Mekkah or anyone who's discussed fe7 at length. Or we could link dondons fe7 unit ratings thread for sources.

 

nobody with actual ability at playing the game is going to argue Lyn>Marcus in any metric. Mekkah made two long ass videos outlining why in very easy to understand terms. Most people would understand his points since they're consistent. You haven't made a single consistent argument at all, yet you act arrogant as fuck and attempt the most childish bullshit I've seen in a loooong time.

How is that even possible? Using good units with potential who grow is what makes FE what it is and where the fun is at. 

And you are special? Because no matter how much you argue against it, I see no reason to take your advice, since it doesn't benefit me. The gesture is apreciated, but that's all you will get from me.

If it's not fun for you, that's all well and good, you aren't forced to use her. I use her because it's both fun and usefull to do so, so there's that.

Good for you, I will give advice, whetever people read or not, heed it or not. 

You don't have to grind, nor escort to play my way, but if it doesn't fit with you, that's fine too. As long as you don't try to claim that Lyn is frail that she needs constant protection which isn't true, she's not a tank, but she's not exactly as frail as Elise and the like. 

It doesn't matter if they are convinced or not, I will give my advice and whetever they follow or not, it's up to them to do so or not.

And what if you do post those links and videos? That will not stop me from giving my advice, which is good no matter what anyone else thinks.

I will argue Lyn>Marcus and I have actual ability. Since I know for a fact that Lyn has better stats in the longrun. My arguments have been pretty consistent so far though, I presented you his averages compared with Lyn's and the like.

Edited by DiogoJorge
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5 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Considering that I'm a FE veteran, my advice is worth gold no matter what you say. And I already explained why they are mistaken.

Not really, if you knew how to use Lyn propely you would't be saying that. 

Right so. First off, having played for a long time is not out of the ordinary here, and the length of time you've played for is in no way, shape or form an indicator for how good you are or how good your advice is. It might be gold to you and to people who've never played the game, but to literally anyone who's played even ENM, they know that Lyn is a unit with a poor earlygame and requires high investment to reach her mediocre lategame. Swords/Bows is one of the worst weapon access combos in the game, up there with Bowlock, Swordlock and Stafflock. Add in that due to reduced effectiveness and the weapon triangle, in most every situation you are better off taking an axe or a mage- both of which basically anyone who's playing will have- to kill the fliers than Lyndis, who'd be classed as a mediocre archer if she had bow access when unpromoted. Being an FE "veteran" doesn't make your opinion automatically gold, it just means more people will laugh at you if you're wrong. Which in this case you are.

Just to compare Lyndis to the other archers you will have at this point:

Lyndis, 20/1: 32 HP, 14 Str, 21 Skl, 20 Spd, 15 Lck, 9 Def, 11 Res, 6 Con, 6 Mov, D rank bows. That's 20 Str with Iron Bow, 23 Str/17 Spd with Steel Bow.

Louise, 4: 28 HP, 12 Str, 14 Skl, 17 Spd, 16 Lck, 9 Def, 12 Res, 6 Con, 6 Mov, A rank bows. The Str looks bad but her Silver Bow patches it to 25 Str with no penalty. She'll probably double most non-bosses and do more damage than Lyndis.

Geitz, 5: 46 HP, 20 Str, 14 Skl, 15 Spd, 11 Lck, 12 Def, 4 Res, 13 Con, 6 Mov, B rank bows. Straight-up outclasses Lyndis in everything but Speed, and he's got the Str to make sure the first hit will put them in the ground anyway. Plus, his not-bow weapon has better WTA for the majority of what's left of the game.

Rebecca, 20/4: 34 HP, 16 Str, 17 Skl, 20 Spd, 15 Lck, 8 Def, 10 Res, 6 Con, 6 Mov, likely about B rank bows. Pretty much flat-out superior to Lyndis if you bothered training her.

Wil, 20/4: 39 HP, 18 Str, 18 Skl, 15 Spd, 14 Lck, 11 Def, 8 Res, 8 Con, 6 Mov, probably B rank bows. Steel Bow puts him to 27 Atk and 14 Spd. Iron is 24 Str with no penalty. He's got more damage per hit, but he's worse.

Rath, 13/1 (Assuming Rath was killed in LHM): 33 HP, 13 Str, 13 Skl, 14 Spd, 7 Lck, 11 Def, 6 Res, 8 Con, 8 Mov, B rank bows and a horse. Superior Mov and bow rank, about equal Str and bulk, less Skl and Spd. At the given levels, he's worse, although delaying promotion could do better.

Rath, 20/1 (Assuming he survived LHM): 38 HP, 17 Str, 15 Skl, 18 Spd, 9 Lck, 11 Def, 8 Res, 8 Con, 8 Mov, likely B rank bows and a horse. Bulk is outright superior, movement is better, and with a Steel Bow he hits 26 Str and 17 Spd, which is better than Lyn does with the same equipment.

These are the main units who should really be bothering with a bow. Dorcas/Bartre got excluded because they promote to have E rank bows and that's literally useless, they might as well be axelocked. Of these, at least three of the units are outright better than Lyn (Geitz, Rebecca and Rath), and there's only one unit who's pretty much undoubtedly worse than her (Wil). In short, if Lyn is your best archer, you've lost a lot of other units on the way. Geitz alone can handle basically any flier with axes.

As for sword users:

Lyndis, 20/1: 32 HP, 14 Str, 21 Skl, 20 Spd, 15 Lck, 9 Def, 11 Res, 6 Con, 6 Mov, likely C/B rank swords. We'll assume that she has the Mani Katti but saves it for effective damage, so Iron Sword is 20 Str and Steel Sword is 22 Str and 16 Spd. With the Mani Katti, it's 22 Str.

Sain, 20/6: 40 HP, 23 Str, 13 Skl, 17 Spd, 13 Lck, 13 Def, 8 Res, 11 Con, 8 Mov, likely B rank swords. Literally superior.

Kent, 20/6: 42 HP, 17 Str, 19 Skl, 19 Spd, 13 Def, 8 Res, 11 Con, 8 Mov, likely B rank swords. Literally superior.

Marcus, 5: 34 HP, 16 Str, 17 Skl, 12 Spd, 9 Lck, 11 Def, 9 Res, 11 Con, 8 Mov, A rank swords. Marcus has sheer weapon availability on his side, roughly equal bulk, and he hits harder, plus more Mov and Con, whereas Lyndis is faster. 

Eliwood, 20: 33 HP, 14 Str, 15 Skl, 15 Spd, 15 Lck, 11 Def, 7 Res, 7 Con, 5 Mov, likely B rank swords. Bulk is better, speed is worse. Not too much to say.

Eliwood, 20/1: 37 HP, 16 Str, 15 Skl, 16 Spd, 16 Lck, 12 Def, 10 Res, 9 Con, 7 Mov, likely B rank swords. Slower, but bulkier, with more Str and Con so less of a Steel penalty, plus the movement and lance availability. 

Guy: 20/4: 45 HP, 16 Str, 23 Skl, 24 Spd, 14 Lck, 11 Def, 7 Res, 9 Con, 6 Mov, likely B/A rank swords. Literally superior.

Lowen, 20/6: 46 HP, 15 Str, 13 Skl, 15 Spd, 15 Lck, 18 Def, 8 Res, 11 Con, 8 Mov, likely B rank swords. Slower, but so bulky he may as well be an armor.

Raven: 20/4: 48 HP, 20 Str, 22 Skl, 25 Spd, 8 Lck, 13 Def, 7 Res, 10 Con, 6 Mov, likely B/A rank swords. Literally superior.

Isadora, 5: 31 HP, 14 Str, 13 Skl, 18 Spd, 12 Lck, 9 Def, 7 Res, 9 Con, 8 Mov, A rank swords. Typical cavalry Mov/Con/weapon access advantage, but less Skl. With a Steel Sword, she matches Lyn for Str/Spd.

Ignoring thieves because they shouldn't see combat anyway and Rath because E rank swords. Sain, Kent, Lowen, Raven and Guy are outright superior. Isadora's about as good. Eliwood and Marcus are questionably as good (This is H26 so Marcus should be starting to lag a bit here anyway) and quite frankly it's questionable as to whether Spd and bows can beat out slight bulk, lances and Mov to make Lyn a better use of the seal than Eliwood. Even if we ignore the cavalry in this, there's still two infantry swords here who are basically outright superior to Lyndis. 

The long and short of the story here is that at promotion, which is H26 and so is as good a place as any to declare the start of the lategame and when growth units like Lyn start hitting their stride, Lyn is outclassed both as a sword user and as a bow user. Given this, it's safe to say that Lyn is an inferior choice when she has competition like Geitz and Raven, and for swordlock or bowlock there's Guy and Rebecca, both of whom are clearly superior to Lyn with their respective weapons. Lyn may not be a bad unit, but she's definitely outclassed as a sword user, as a bow user or as a multirange combatant.

The main difficulty with comparing Lyn and Marcus is you're comparing two completely different units. Marcus peaks for the earlygame and it carries him throughout, whereas Lyn peaks towards the end of the game, along with basically everyone else. We might as well compare apples and carrots. They're completely different and are for completely different times.

So, to summarise:

-Is Lyn good? She's outclassed, both as a sword user, a bow user and a multirange unit. Not necessarily bad, but there's better.

-Is Marcus bad? He starts great and gets worse. On average he comes out as being good because he starts at his peak and stays there for a while, but he starts to fall off as basically everyone else ramps up so it's a lot more noticeable. By the endgame he will likely be your worst Paladin, but even then 'worst Paladin' isn't much of a metric because it's such a good class, sort of like how 'best Sniper' isn't much of a metric because Snipers are typically viewed as being kind of crap. He might be bad by the time you hit Cog through VoD, but by that point you should probably have seen his descent and dropped him. Flexibility is the most important tool: Recognise when someone's not keeping up and swap to someone who does.

-Is Lyn better than Marcus? This strongly depends at where in the game you're looking. By the lategame, Lyn's peaking and Marcus is falling off, so she probably will be. For earlygame, Marcus is peaking and Lyn's struggling, so it's reversed. The question isn't which unit is better but rather which is worse: The late-game falloff or the early-game bases struggle? Most of the time, people will say the early-game struggle is worse, because with the falloff Marcus can be dropped for the lategame when he struggles because he's already hit his peak and done his bit. Lyn on the other hand doesn't have a lategame if you don't force yourself through the earlygame struggle. They're completely different units with different peaks, the question is are the peaks worth the troughs? With Marcus, yes because his are after he peaks. With Lyn, the troughs come before the peaks, and the question comes down to the individual. Numerically however, the answer tends to lean more towards no than yes, simply because there's other units that do her job better.

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If we judge units solely by their potential, then Bartre >>>>>>>>>> Lyn. Like, seriously, 20/20 Bartre's only "weakness" can be patched fairly well with only a Speedwing, Axes are WAY better than swords, most unit that he doesn't double with his 20 Spd will be wrecked with a Swordslayer, his Bulk at 60 HP/18 Def/ 12 Res is pretty respectable...

With the exception of Dorcas (who, unlike Bartre, won't double Wyvern Lords even with a Speedwing), Bartre is THE strongest potential Silver Bow wielder as well. Imma estimate 18 Def on VoD Wyvern lords - 20/20 Bartre would deal either 2 x 36 Damage with a Silver Bow, or 4 x 30 Damage with the Brave Bow (which he can wield without losing AS). Lyn's just way too wimpy with her meager 21 Str. It's really not worth using a unit that can't even reach Blade Lord's shitty Str cap.

With the Swordslayer, Bartre has 54 Atk against Heroes and Swordmasters - compared to Lyn's 35 with a Silver Blade. Against Heroes with more than 16 Def, Bartre does more damage than Lyn, even if he doesn't double. Against squishier Heroes, Lyn might have an advantage, but it's not even enough to 2HKO, say, the Light Brand Hero in ch.28x - even 20/20 Lyn with a Silver Blade would be off by one point, so her advantage isn't really all that great.

I'm not even kidding - if we really accepted "potential" as our metric, then Bartre would be a serious contender for the top spot on the roster.

(inb4 "it is not worth using a Speedwing Bartre because his Speed is so low")  :lol:

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This was fun for a while but damn, now it's just getting depressing.

@DiogoJorgeI suggest you learn from the example of someone else who actually does believe Lyn is a good unit (me) and just let it go. Just because there are people who disagree doesn't mean an argument needs to be made.

In fact, I think a lot of people here could benefit from that advice...

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50 minutes ago, ping said:

If we judge units solely by their potential, then Bartre >>>>>>>>>> Lyn. Like, seriously, 20/20 Bartre's only "weakness" can be patched fairly well with only a Speedwing, Axes are WAY better than swords, most unit that he doesn't double with his 20 Spd will be wrecked with a Swordslayer, his Bulk at 60 HP/18 Def/ 12 Res is pretty respectable...

With the exception of Dorcas (who, unlike Bartre, won't double Wyvern Lords even with a Speedwing), Bartre is THE strongest potential Silver Bow wielder as well. Imma estimate 18 Def on VoD Wyvern lords - 20/20 Bartre would deal either 2 x 36 Damage with a Silver Bow, or 4 x 30 Damage with the Brave Bow (which he can wield without losing AS). Lyn's just way too wimpy with her meager 21 Str. It's really not worth using a unit that can't even reach Blade Lord's shitty Str cap.

With the Swordslayer, Bartre has 54 Atk against Heroes and Swordmasters - compared to Lyn's 35 with a Silver Blade. Against Heroes with more than 16 Def, Bartre does more damage than Lyn, even if he doesn't double. Against squishier Heroes, Lyn might have an advantage, but it's not even enough to 2HKO, say, the Light Brand Hero in ch.28x - even 20/20 Lyn with a Silver Blade would be off by one point, so her advantage isn't really all that great.

I'm not even kidding - if we really accepted "potential" as our metric, then Bartre would be a serious contender for the top spot on the roster.

(inb4 "it is not worth using a Speedwing Bartre because his Speed is so low")  :lol:

Bartre best unit. Therefore Bartre>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Marcus>Sain=Florina>Dorcas>Kent>Nino>Wil>Rebecca>Lyn.

 

but yeah Bartre's potential is insane lol. Once his growths snowball, shit dies fast.

come to think of it, one could feasibly reach B bows on an earlypromoted warrior in HHM by the time Lyn gets bows. Sure it's not the most efficienct way, but it is fun and utterly fucking hilarious to use Dorcas/Bartre as snipers and bait.

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22 minutes ago, saucegoblin said:

Nah I'm derailing this topic, did you just say that Dorcas is better than Kent?

Dorcas>Kent because he's a true blue family man.

Kent's just a nerd who can't keep up with the chad sain.

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1 hour ago, Florete said:

 

@DiogoJorgeI suggest you learn from the example of someone else who actually does believe Lyn is a good unit (me) and just let it go. Just because there are people who disagree doesn't mean an argument needs to be made.

In fact, I think a lot of people here could benefit from that advice...

Well said. I will definitely learn from that. Thank you, Florete!

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16 hours ago, ping said:

+2 Con to throw Hand Axes unimpeded before promotion would have worked wonders, too. But yeah, as is, Dart in a normal playthrough is one of those units who join a bit underpowered and end up good, but not great - which just isn't all that impressive by FE7's standards. At least, money isn't really an issue outside of Rankings, so using the Ocean Seal shouldn't matter all that much in the grand scheme of things.

Dart is honestly an example of why I think that FE7's unit balancing (outside of Marcus' OPness) is really good. Unit quality is still diverse enough that it's a meaningful choice what characters to bring, but almost every character can get to a point where they're at least doing fine. Even Nino, although HHM with its ultra-magical CoD is quite a dealbreaker for her. The only characters that I would consider hopeless in that regard are Wallace (AK/General really isn't that hot anymore when he joins) and Karla.

I mean, I don't think there's a single unit in the game that has Dart's raw damage potential. He'll hit upwards of 25 strength pretty much no matter when you promote him, he has more than enough speed to double nearly everything in the game with damn near any of the axes(Barring I think Morph Lloyd), and crit out the wazoo. 

It's, just like Bartre but to a severely lesser degree, really just his shaky start, and the fact that Hawkeye comes a few chapters later that makes his use questionable. I use him pretty much every unranked run, and once he gets about 2-3 levels in him, he tears up most things in his path. If that Ocean Seal didn't eat up 50k funds, I'd probably use him in ranked runs, too, and I doubt he'd be a super controversial pick. Maybe a bit redundant with Hawkeye, but his long term viability might help. 

Dorcas is the only of the unpromoted axers that doesn't have insane snowball potential. Dorcas is good at the start, but will likely be quickly benched when he fails to ever add to his respectable base speed. 

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1 hour ago, Slumber said:

I mean, I don't think there's a single unit in the game that has Dart's raw damage potential. He'll hit upwards of 25 strength pretty much no matter when you promote him, he has more than enough speed to double nearly everything in the game with damn near any of the axes(Barring I think Morph Lloyd), and crit out the wazoo. 

It's, just like Bartre but to a severely lesser degree, really just his shaky start, and the fact that Hawkeye comes a few chapters later that makes his use questionable. I use him pretty much every unranked run, and once he gets about 2-3 levels in him, he tears up most things in his path. If that Ocean Seal didn't eat up 50k funds, I'd probably use him in ranked runs, too, and I doubt he'd be a super controversial pick. Maybe a bit redundant with Hawkeye, but his long term viability might help. 

Dorcas is the only of the unpromoted axers that doesn't have insane snowball potential. Dorcas is good at the start, but will likely be quickly benched when he fails to ever add to his respectable base speed. 

eh I mean +crit, 1-2 range and WTA vs lances, and limited terrain control is really good for a class.

I'd legit say that berserkers are probably one of the best GBA infantry classes in practical terms. 

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2 hours ago, Mister Rogers said:

eh I mean +crit, 1-2 range and WTA vs lances, and limited terrain control is really good for a class.

I'd legit say that berserkers are probably one of the best GBA infantry classes in practical terms. 

On paper, maybe.

But in practice, not so much.

Geese and Gonzales are both solid to good units hampered by the fact that Axes suck eggs in FE6. Geese has some amount of skill to cover for this, but Gonzales is either critting or not hitting at all, especially if you go the B route. Plus, as candidates for the Hero Crests, they're behind Rutger and Dieck, which is a problem when the game only gives you two in the whole game unless you buy more. Garret's alright, but not amazing.

Dart has a bit of a slow start, and using him in a ranked run is borderline impossible. He ends up pretty good, but he's sort of a compromised unit. Hawkeye's really good when he starts and stays pretty solid, but he's so damn slow that he hits some problems that are pretty uncharacteristic for his class. He's viable for the whole game, but his ability to kill stuff will depend on whether or not he crits in a fair few situations after he joins, and he'll probably be noticeably slower than Marcus of all people.

FE8 arguably has it the worst. On one hand, Ross is the only Trainee worth using, and Berserker is probably his best class. On the other, Ross still isn't a very good unit and he'll take a pretty long time to get to this point. Dozla is a weird unit where he's a pre-promote with pretty bad bases but solid growths, so he kind of sucks at doing what pre-promotes are good at. Either way, it's FE8 and you don't really get out of anything by using the "good" classes. At least the ones that don't focus on move.

 

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Just now, Slumber said:

On paper, maybe.

But in practice, not so much.

Geese and Gonzales are both solid to good units hampered by the fact that Axes suck eggs in FE6. Geese has some amount of skill to cover for this, but Gonzales is either critting or not hitting at all. Plus, as candidates for the Hero Crests, they're behind Rutger and Dieck, which is a problem when the game only gives you two in the whole game unless you buy more. Garret's alright, but not amazing.

Dart has a bit of a slow start, and using him in a ranked run is borderline impossible. He ends up pretty good, but he's sort of a compromised unit. Hawkeye's really good when he starts and stays pretty solid, but he's so damn slow that he hits some problems that are pretty uncharacteristic for his class. He's viable for the whole game, but his ability to kill stuff will depend on whether or not he crits in a fair few situations after he joins, and he'll probably be noticeably slower than Marcus of all people.

FE8 arguably has it the worst. On one hand, Ross is the only Trainee worth using, and Berserker is probably his best class. On the other, Ross still isn't a very good unit and he'll take a pretty long time to get to this point. Dozla is a weird unit where he's a pre-promote with pretty bad bases but solid growths, so he kind of sucks at doing what pre-promotes are good at. Either way, it's FE8 and you don't really get out of anything by using the "good" classes. At least the ones that don't focus on move.

 

I kinda meant the class itself, not the units.

but yeah, the units are rather average as a whole. In the case of Dozla, he's arguably solid enough for use. I mean he can double Lyon at base with Garm use. That's just fucking hilarious, isnt it?

 

I'm not arguing that the berserker class units we get are great. They're mostly solid, but the class is good on paper is what I was trying to get at.

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1 minute ago, Mister Rogers said:

I kinda meant the class itself, not the units.

but yeah, the units are rather average as a whole. In the case of Dozla, he's arguably solid enough for use. I mean he can double Lyon at base with Garm use. That's just fucking hilarious, isnt it?

 

I'm not arguing that the berserker class units we get are great. They're mostly solid, but the class is good on paper is what I was trying to get at.

Oh yeah. And even on the whole, WITH everything I just said taken into consideration, they almost universally turn out better than Warriors, barring Geitz.

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