Legendary Archer: Lucina

[Tybrosion]

38 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

And I hear legendary banners can be terrible.

They’re either that, or they give you what you want pretty much immediately (like my free pull Marquess Hector). There isn’t much of an in-between.

[Arthur97]

3 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

They’re either that, or they give you what you want pretty much immediately (like my free pull Marquess Hector). There isn’t much of an in-between.

Latter! Latter! Latter!

I did get a free Fjorm once. Think that's the one I foddered off to Chrom.

[mampfoid]

Hmm, Lucina looks cool and her Assist could become handy in one of my One Turn clears. Perhaps I'll wait for another banner to pull blue: I have Azura already and really don't need Ishtar since I just promoted Oliver. 

From the other colors I'm missing only Ryoma (want but not need), Grima (want), Lyn (interested in SPD tactic), Chrom (nice, but not needed) and Hinoka (not needed). 

It'll be one full summon then, perhaps I'll evade green. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by mampfoid

[Tybrosion]

28 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Latter! Latter! Latter!

I did get a free Fjorm once. Think that's the one I foddered off to Chrom.

I could've also gotten Ephraim as a free pull back on his original banner. Instead, he was the second unit I pulled from there while Summer F!Corrin was the free pull. The Fire legendaries apparently like me and/or know their element is among my favorite types in Pokemon.

Though to talk about the other end, F!Grima doesn't exist on my account despite her being on approximately twenty straight legendary banners. I don't expect that change with this one since I need a new white whale now that Elise is checked off the list.

[NSSKG151]

3 hours ago, Astellius said:

Ah, Lucina! She's one of my favorite characters from the franchise, so I'm happy to see her again. Sadly, pulling for Tana has left my orb supplies in a sorry state, and I really wish I had stopped pulling after my 8th pity-breaker (yes, I had 8 pity-breakers, and now hold much resentment for that banner now, especially since I never did pull Tana). But I'll probably throw what little orbs I do have at it, since both Lucina and Ishtar would be happy pulls for me.

Ouch, sad to hear you got pitybroken eight times going for Summer Tana. And I thought I had terrible luck back in June wasting 400 orbs trying to get normal Linde and got nothing but pitybreakers. Hopefully you have better luck when they put S!Tana on a future Legendary banner. Also, good luck pulling blues on tomorrow's banner.

[Arthur97]

11 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

I could've also gotten Ephraim as a free pull back on his original banner. Instead, he was the second unit I pulled from there while Summer F!Corrin was the free pull. The Fire legendaries apparently like me and/or know their element is among my favorite types in Pokemon.

Though to talk about the other end, F!Grima doesn't exist on my account despite her being on approximately twenty straight legendary banners. I don't expect that change with this one since I need a new white whale now that Elise is checked off the list.

The irony. I got an Elise randomly.

[KMT4ever]

Well, Lucina got another alt? On the one hand I think she's got enough, but on the other hand I really like her. A blue bow is neat, and that self-Dance assist skill is very interesting. As for the whole banner, I'm pretty excited. As of Arena rewards I've got 149 orbs ready, so my stockpile is sufficient.

• Red doesn't appeal to me. Elincia provides enough red-flier power, and Knight-Chrom is meh to me. Pass.
• Blue is looking great. L!Lucina is obviously a target, I'd love a better Ishtar, and Azura would be nice to have. Definitely targeting.
• Green is iffy. I've already got an excellent V!Lilina and Christmas-Lissa is neat but not really needed, but I'd really like a not-trash L!Lyn. Probably targeting.
• Grey looks very good. A better B!Lyn is always welcome, F!Grima can join Myrrh in the "Flying Dragons Club", and Kinoka beats out Tak-Tak. Definitely targeting.

[Johann]

13 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The fact that I'm a straight male isn't sexism. The fact that I have stronger opinions about the qualities I like and dislike in females (because that's the sex that I'm attracted to) than in males is not sexism.

Maybe people don't like the fact that these are the fifth versions of Lyn and Lucina and it has nothing to do with Lyn or Lucina themselves or their sex. I think people are coming to conclusions on far too less information and are trying to make the situation overblown by pulling the sexism card prematurely.

I'm not downplaying sexism. I'm saying that pulling that card out here was inappropriate and caused needless escalation.

It would be just as inappropriate to call me racist if Basilio were implemented in the game and I didn't like him because his stat spread didn't fit my play style. Yes, Basilio is black. No, his being black is obviously irrelevant to my decision.

Here's the thing: The effects of sexism are deeply rooted into every facet of society, and this game, series, fanbase, and gaming in general are all far from being exceptions. Some people have sexist opinions or behavior without being conscious of it. Even someone who likes the characters may very well be doing so for sexist reasons. The "waifu" stuff is prime example of that, as it's objectifying. It's not even close to an even playing field when you look at the dynamic.

If gender is affecting a player's opinion on a character, then there's likely some sexism in play. When you talk about the "qualities you like and dislike in females" that elicit stronger opinions than for male characters, what are those qualities exactly? Strictly speaking, there's nothing gameplay wise that makes female characters inherently better. The Basilio example you suggested isn't even remotely comparable to any other argument made here since you're not judging him by anything beyond his stats.

I generally avoid the alt-salt, but your responses towards @Florete and @eclipse are downright mansplainy, and you've made several bad faith arguments like both sides-ing gender issues as if there's no gender disparity between how characters are perceived, or how fans react. You could just listen to what they have to say and take it into consideration, instead of acting like this is completely exclusive of issues that are baked into the core of the game and community.

[Ottservia]

28 minutes ago, Johann said:

The "waifu" stuff is prime example of that, as it's objectifying.

Here's the thing about waifu culture. From my interpretation of it, a "waifu" is basically a character you really like for one reason or another be it surface level cuteness/sexiness or their deep and complex character writing. In this sense I don't believe waifu culture to be objectifying unless it's taken too far or too seriously. This can happen from the side of the creator or the fans. From the creator's side of things it's when creators start making characters specifically to be waifu material. An example of this is Camilla. In this sense the characters created aren't characters they're just objects for the fans to claim as "best girl" for very surface level and shallow reasons. On the fans side of things is all the doujins and fanfictions that come out of it.  So I don't think waifu culture is objectifying only when it's taken to the extreme that it gets pretty bad.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Otts486

[Astellius]

2 hours ago, Arthur97 said:

Probably better than my paltry 77 orbs. And I hear legendary banners can be terrible. Best of luck to us both.

My orb stock is about half that...! So not much, but there will be orbs to herald in the new month, along with a new Grand Conquest, so there's at least a bit of room to replenish our exchequers. Good luck!

1 hour ago, NSSKG151 said:

Ouch, sad to hear you got pitybroken eight times going for Summer Tana. And I thought I had terrible luck back in June wasting 400 orbs trying to get normal Linde and got nothing but pitybreakers. Hopefully you have better luck when they put S!Tana on a future Legendary banner. Also, good luck pulling blues on tomorrow's banner.

Ouch -- hopefully Linde will grace your ranks sometime soon!

[Ice Dragon]

18 minutes ago, Johann said:

The Basilio example you suggested isn't even remotely comparable to any other argument made here since you're not judging him by anything beyond his stats.

THAT'S EXACTLY THE POINT.

There's no reason to pull the race card when my dislike of Basilio in the hypothetical example is because of his stats. There's similarly no reason to pull the sex card when a lot of people are disliking of the Lyn and Lucina banners and the only reasonable explanation is the fact that they have five alts.

Read my follow-up post from after I posted the post you quoted.

If Lyn's and Lucina's sex were the primary reason that there are so many dislikes of their videos, then why doesn't Robin, Fjorm, or Gunnthra have a similarly inflated number of dislikes? There is no evidence to support the argument that the characters' sex is the reason behind the backlash and therefore there is no reason to pull out the sex card into this discussion about this backlash.

All of the evidence points either to Lyn and Lucina having more alts than other characters or to Lyn and Lucina being colored bows, neither of which are traits inherent to being female.

 

If someone can present to me an even half-believable argument that Lucina being female is the most plausible reason for the downvoting despite the evidence I've submitted pointing otherwise, I will back off.

However, it seems everyone is too busy trying to tell me that I'm a terrible person and that I should feel bad about even trying to argue instead of actually trying to lay down any evidence to prove to me that my argument is in the wrong.

[Arthur97]

Really, Ice has a point. You have no real data to back up the sexism thing as Lucina and Lyn are in unique positions. So don't dismiss his argument as "mansplaining." Wait for the fifth Hector and see what happens then.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Arthur97

[Johann]

34 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

Here's the thing about waifu culture. From my interpretation of it, a "waifu" is basically a character you really like for one reason or another be it surface level cuteness/sexiness or their deep and complex character writing. In this sense I don't believe waifu culture to be objectifying unless it's taken too far or too seriously. This can happen from the side of the creator or the fans. From the creator's side of things it's when creators start making characters specifically to be waifu material. An example of this is Camilla. In this sense the characters created aren't characters they're just objects for the fans to claim as "best girl" for very surface level and shallow reasons. On the fans side of things is all the doujins and fanfictions that come out of it.  So I don't think waifu culture is objectifying only when it's taken to the extreme that it gets pretty bad.

Look, I don't fault people for liking characters, not even ones that pander to sexual fantasies like Camilla. In fact, there's some good qualities present in every character in the game, at the very least gameplay-wise, since everyone has potential. But it's pretty clear that the "waifu" behavior extends to far beyond characters like Camilla, just that they elicit that response far more commonly.

10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

However, it seems everyone is too busy trying to tell me that I'm a terrible person and that I should feel bad about even trying to argue instead of actually trying to lay down any evidence to prove to me that my argument is in the wrong.

Herein lies the problem. You're viewing this all as an attack on you. Nobody has called you a terrible person or even a sexist. Not a single person. You're too busy defending yourself from accusations that haven't been made that you're not even listening. This isn't even really about you. The only thing we've done is called you out for making bad faith arguments.

That you chose only to quote my response to your absurd Basilio remark is an example of that; you're disregarding everything else I'm saying to pick out something that seems to prove you right. You didn't seem to understand my point there either, so I'll elaborate: their being alts is intrinsic to their character, as is their being female. Their stats aren't. You can't divorce the fact that a Lucina alt is still Lucina, who is a woman. Factoring in that sexism towards women is a society-wide problem, even to an unconscious degree, which manifests all manner of responses, particularly negative ones, your default response shouldn't be to talk down others (especially when they're women) who suggest that there's sexism involved.

You're getting extremely worked up over this. I don't get why you feel the need to defend this case beyond that you hate to admit that you could be mistaken. You have plenty to gain by listening to other people and considering that a core problem with the fanbase may have a part to play in this response, even if it's not the all-encompassing reason.

[Baldrick]

My 2 cents, the most likely reason for Lyn and Lucina getting more dislikes is alt fatigue. But why do they have so many alts in the first place? If the answer is "because they're popular", consider Ike, who got the most votes of any character in CYL (and still took #1 even with split vote handicap, suck it Marth). He's barely been milked, he hasn't got a single seasonal yet. He did have a big Legendary reveal, but then they more or less gave him away which would disincentivise most people from throwing orbs at him. Hell, Takumi and Chrom have more alts than he does.

(Note: this isn't saying Ike should get more alts, or anything. Just that his case proves popularity isn't the motivation for IS making alts, for males at least.)

Edited July 31, 2018 by Baldrick

[NSSKG151]

1 hour ago, Astellius said:

Ouch -- hopefully Linde will grace your ranks sometime soon!

Yeah, maybe some day Linde will grace me with her presence and I will get to try out that refined Aura of hers but until then I am content with having Delthea and Tailtiu to use as my blue tome infantry units.

[GrimmLow]

7 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

They could double up on the 3H main characters.

Version 1 is themselves at the start of the game, going no further than themselves up to the furthest point the demos and trailers for the game show in detail, this is what their personalities and dialogue are based on. Version 1 packs pre-ultimate weapons as well, whatever they end up being. These are released near 3H's release.

Version 2 are the main characters having acquired their ultimate weapons and gone through the experiences of the entire story of their game, changing their character however much it does. These are released months after 3H comes out, and perhaps not as a single banner, but as individual characters added in at different unrelated times. It will take into consideration any available data on the popularity rankings of the various 3H characters.

This game likes alts, and simply because they are main characters and they will be brand spankin' new, they WILL be popular. One will also probably be stupid, another too perfect, another a donkey, but the opposite side of this is that they will also be heavily loved. More waves of love-hate controversy in characters is inevitable. How many? Well who knows? SoV's controversies aren't many, just the Celica decision, Alm's perfection, Rudolf's plan, and Berkut, none of which for whatever intensity they had, are as bad as other controversies related to things like Fates.

I like this kinda view. Almost reminds me of the SoV banners. Version 1; Alm and Celica are in their pre-promoted appearances but have their prfs. Their dialogue is like a subtle ad to their game, like how Alm talks about freeing Zofia and all that. 

Version 2; more SoV characters come in from Alm and Celica's armies. 

Thoughts on the legendary banner; 

Bowcina is nice and all but where is the real alt John Cena!!! ahem Joking Aside. I may sling a few orbs on red and blue. I want Paladin!Chrom and Ishtar the most.

[Ice Dragon]

58 minutes ago, Johann said:

The only thing we've done is called you out for making bad faith arguments.

And herein lies my problem with everyone responding to me. Nobody has yet even TRIED to argue against my argument. Everyone has literally "only been calling me out for making bad faith arguments" as you put it.

You're basically attempting to take the moral high ground not to argue that my argument is wrong, but that I am wrong for making an argument.

 

58 minutes ago, Johann said:

You didn't seem to understand my point there either, so I'll elaborate: their being alts is intrinsic to their character, as is their being female. Their stats aren't. You can't divorce the fact that a Lucina alt is still Lucina, who is a woman.

And you don't seem to understand what my point is, either.

The fact that they have received five alts is not intrinsic to their characters. Nothing about Lucina's character necessitates that she receives five alts. My argument is that the reason for the backlash is not because "it's an alt of Lucina (who now has five alts)" but because "it's an alt of a character who now has five alts (who happens to be Lucina)". These are very, very different statements. The former finds fault in the fact that the alt is of Lucina in particular. The latter finds fault in the fact that the character receiving the alt has many alts regardless of who it happened to be.

 

58 minutes ago, Johann said:

You can't divorce the fact that a Lucina alt is still Lucina, who is a woman.

I can, however, divorce the fact that not liking an alt of Lucina is not the same as not liking Lucina, is not the same as not liking women, and is not the same as being misogynist.

You're treating a negative opinion towards a single instance of a female character to be a negative opinion of a female character to be a negative opinion of females as a whole for the sole fact that that single instance of a female character is female.

 

58 minutes ago, Johann said:

You're getting extremely worked up over this.

I believe I have every right to be when people are telling me I am wrong to argue without addressing my argument itself.

 

58 minutes ago, Johann said:

I don't get why you feel the need to defend this case beyond that you hate to admit that you could be mistaken.

Perhaps you didn't notice because you're too busy trying to rip my person to pieces and not my words, but I'd already conceded my original argument. Or maybe it's because that's not the argument that you wanted me to concede to that you're ignoring it.

 

58 minutes ago, Johann said:

You have plenty to gain by listening to other people and considering that a core problem with the fanbase may have a part to play in this response, even if it's not the all-encompassing reason.

I don't think it has a significant part to play in this response, and I've already stated my reasons why. And you are still blatantly ignoring my argument and telling me that I am wrong to argue.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[Alkaid]

I think most of the alts have had pretty unique contexts to explain why they each got the reactions they did, along with alt fatigue pretty clearly getting stronger as the year's gone on. Lyn's mixed reception made sense as she both got an alt relatively soon after her previous one and she was the 5th Lyn on top of it. It seems understandable for some people to think that was kind of spammy by IS. We all even expected Lyn to get one eventually (and same with Lucina), but the timing was not the best and managed to annoy even some of the more neutral players, I think.  Lucina hasn't had an alt in almost a year, but she's still riding the current alt fatigue wave and she's also another colored bow like L Lyn. So she really gives a vibe of "it's L Lyn 2.0," so I'm not surprised the same reaction from some people is happening.

Also, does this really warrant a whole sexism debate? I think things are getting blown out of proportion again.

[Tybrosion]

5 minutes ago, Alkaid said:

Also, does this really warrant a whole sexism debate? I think things are getting blown out of proportion again.

Of course it doesn't, and I won't be surprised if it leads to this topic getting locked at the very least.

[Sunwoo]

I, personally, think this topic should be locked until the banner drops at least.

[Arthur97]

52 minutes ago, Johann said:

Herein lies the problem. You're viewing this all as an attack on you. Nobody has called you a terrible person or even a sexist. Not a single person. You're too busy defending yourself from accusations that haven't been made that you're not even listening. This isn't even really about you. The only thing we've done is called you out for making bad faith arguments.

Bad faith argument, huh? But, have you really done anything to prove your argument other than saying people are sexist? Do you have proof that that's why people are reacting the way they do? Who's to say he's wrong? Or that it's, as you put it, "bad faith arguments?" If you say it's because of sexism, prove it.

2 minutes ago, Alkaid said:

I think most of the alts have had pretty unique contexts to explain why they each got the reactions they did, along with alt fatigue pretty clearly getting stronger as the year's gone on. Lyn's mixed reception made sense as she both got an alt relatively soon after her previous one and she was the 5th Lyn on top of it. It seems understandable for some people to think that was kind of spammy by IS. We all even expected Lyn to get one eventually (and same with Lucina), but the timing was not the best and managed to annoy even some of the more neutral players, I think.  Lucina hasn't had an alt in almost a year, but she's still riding the current alt fatigue wave and she's also another colored bow like L Lyn. So she really gives a vibe of "it's L Lyn 2.0," so I'm not surprised the same reaction from some people is happening.

Also, does this really warrant a whole sexism debate? I think things are getting blown out of proportion again.

I wish the fact that Lucina hasn't had one in so long would have bought her more favor.

[Paris]

Agreed with @Arthur97. Currently, no one has offered a legitimate counterargument (data) against the data he provided. Furthermore, isn't dismissing his arguments as "mansplaining" talking him down?  

People wanting to defend themselves isn't always because they're unwilling to listen. There's the possibility that someone is mislabelling them and/or making inaccurate accusations about them or their actions. 

Neither of those women provided statistical data to back their claim and counter his. Both of them have failed to consider the issues fans had with Lyn/Lucina or the differences behind the circumstances of their alts vs other characters. It's disingenuous to ignore those valid issues and label fans as "sexist". 

[Silverly]

6 minutes ago, Alkaid said:

Also, does this really warrant a whole sexism debate? I think things are getting blown out of proportion again.

This is the million dollar question and the answer is no. 

I agree mostly with Ice Dragon, but I’d rather not get involved in this argument here. Let’s see how long this shitstorm continues.

[Interdimensional Observer]

I'm in agreement, a lock might be needed. This kind of raw fiery debate hasn't ever gone over well. But it does in practice die away a few days after the banner is revealed, as people just feel tired of arguing, until the next controversy when the poor camel has its back broken for the umpteenth time.

And didn't the Spring Bridal get locked due to Sanaki controversy toxicity? It looks like SF might sadly need another swing of the Cat O' Nine Tails to calm things.

[Ice Dragon]

I think I've gotten everything out of my system. That's going to be the last you hear of this from my mouth unless someone wants to actually challenge my argument.

 

As for the banner itself, part of me is pretty bummed that there are only three seasonal characters on it (unless I somehow missed someone) and that Camilla shares her color with no one else that I care quite enough to pull for. Ryoma's always a nice to have for me, but I really don't need another sword cavalry to work on in Chrom. But that's probably a good thing because I don't have as much budget to spend on this banner this month due to other banners that require some attention, both in Heroes and F/GO.

I kind of wish that they'd have picked someone other than Azura to take the third spot in blue, though, considering I'm done merging her and she has no skills worth holding onto for Skill Inheritance. I wouldn't mind some more copies of Hardin, Hinoka, or Nephenee instead.