Could dagger units become good now?

[redlight]

With the new banner in with awesome weapons for dagger units to be inherited and these weapons highly likely being brought into the normal summoning pool soon, I want to ask you guys something. Will daggers become actually good?

Personally, I do think they might become very viable in arena assault as ranged effective weapons are rather powerful because of their huge range and effective damage to boot. As for arena, it remains to be seen

Edited August 8, 2018 by silveraura25

[Chocolate Kitty]

Why would you think they're going to be in the normal summoning pool; they're seasonal units... With seasonal weapons.

[Ice Dragon]

I don't see daggers being good in Arena offense quite yet. With effective weaponry, at best, they can be coverage options in the last team slot. However, even then, the only dagger users I can see really being viable are the ones that are already at the top of the heap: Sothe, Kagero, Kagero, and Linde, running off of their high Atk stats and Kagero and Linde having access to movement-type buffs.

Colored daggers are interesting, but the two we currently have are not likely to make a particularly large splash due to having dancer stat penalties. If we get more colored daggers later, they could potentially be usable because having a color compensates for the weapon type's two largest weaknesses: low damage output and low bulk.

 

The new weapons make them way better in Arena Assault, though.

[Rafiel's Aria]

As far as upper-tier Arena, I doubt we'll see them there unless we end up getting something like an armored dagger which would probably be pretty terrifying.... 

The effective against weapons are definitely a step in the right direction since it gives the weapon-user something to directly counter. Like nowadays I don't use my Julia for much more than countering dragons. She's still a good mage, but that's her primary use. I'm not sure how well they'll actually work in terms of countering bulky units like armors, but I definitely think they'll be good to have around for AA.

[mampfoid]

Would be nice to meet more daggers in Arena for a change. I won't start to merge one though. 

[Johann]

I think one of the biggest issues for daggers affects bows to some extent as well-- most high end Arena foes are too dangerous to attack without having the means to cancel their counter attack. Firesweep dagger would be a nice addition, as would having Windsweep and Watersweep 3 in the 4* pool.

For what it's worth, I use Felicia on my core Arena team. Even when she has no safe targets, she's a great ploy user. If I had Windsweeps to spare, she'd be a perfect candidate.

[redlight]

31 minutes ago, Chocolate Kitty said:

Why would you think they're going to be in the normal summoning pool; they're seasonal units... With seasonal weapons.

Barb Shuriken and Wo Gun. They were originally seasonal weapons with different names. But they were later added to the normal summoning pool. Fates has effective against armor and horse daggers, but I dunno how they'll implement the dragon effective dagger. Maybe they'll make Xane into a dagger user and give him the dragon effective dagger. Flora and Asugi are good candidates for the Fates effective daggers

[Garlyle]

There are good dagger units. I've used NY!Takumi, H!Sakura and S!Kagero a lot. I also have plans with Kaze and Legault.

But if you want even better dagger users, I don't think the units on the upcoming banner give you that change.

[Arcphoenix]

Dagger units became good when Sothe released and Saizo got a refine, lol.

I'm not really getting my hopes up this banner.  I doubt these units will have much BST to work with, so their stats will probably be less than favorable.

[Hilda]

5 hours ago, Johann said:

I think one of the biggest issues for daggers affects bows to some extent as well-- most high end Arena foes are too dangerous to attack without having the means to cancel their counter attack. Firesweep dagger would be a nice addition, as would having Windsweep and Watersweep 3 in the 4* pool.

For what it's worth, I use Felicia on my core Arena team. Even when she has no safe targets, she's a great ploy user. If I had Windsweeps to spare, she'd be a perfect candidate.

mmm my Felicia can tackle slot of foes in high end arena. it all drpends on her built and team conposition. i run her with a swift sparrow desperation def tactics seal: flashing blade & glimmer. Obviously she will not be great against mixed bulk units but units with min max extremes she takes out easy in desperation range. against tome users she is fantastic anyway and flashing blade allows her to kill the pesky melee units!

[Othin]

6 hours ago, silveraura25 said:

Barb Shuriken and Wo Gun. They were originally seasonal weapons with different names. But they were later added to the normal summoning pool. Fates has effective against armor and horse daggers, but I dunno how they'll implement the dragon effective dagger. Maybe they'll make Xane into a dagger user and give him the dragon effective dagger. Flora and Asugi are good candidates for the Fates effective daggers

Barb Shuriken and Wo Gun had precedent in non-seasonal weapons. These do not, they only really resemble past seasonal weapons.

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Arcphoenix said:

Dagger units became good when Sothe released and Saizo got a refine, lol.

I'm not really getting my hopes up this banner.  I doubt these units will have much BST to work with, so their stats will probably be less than favorable.

Daggers still need Brave and Firesweep, so Sothe with only his statline is not enough to make him good in my opinion. Brave ranged Weapons generally outclasses even exclusive Weapons in terms of offensive power, and Firesweep Weapons are mandatory for Player Phase teams in my opinion if you are in a higher score range to shut down counter attacks.

I do not think Saizo got anything. The only dagger I recall getting a Refinement is Jaffar.

[Arcphoenix]

3 minutes ago, XRay said:

Daggers still need Brave and Firesweep, so Sothe with only his statline is not enough to make him good in my opinion. Brave ranged Weapons generally outclasses even exclusive Weapons in terms of offensive power, and Firesweep Weapons are mandatory for Player Phase teams in my opinion if you are in a higher score range to shut down counter attacks.

I do not think Saizo got anything. The only dagger I recall getting a Refinement is Jaffar.

Desperation helps alot.

Saizo's refined Smoke Dagger does -6 to all stats on the target and all foes within two spaces. It's the ultimate debuffer, even if he's not that great combat-wise.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Arcphoenix said:

Saizo's refined Smoke Dagger does -6 to all stats on the target and all foes within two spaces. It's the ultimate debuffer, even if he's not that great combat-wise.

"Smoke Dagger is not exclusive to Saizo" was the point @XRay was making.

 

3 minutes ago, Arcphoenix said:

Desperation helps alot.

Desperation is useless if you can't kill the opponent in two hits or if you die to the first counterattack before it is active.

[XRay]

7 minutes ago, Arcphoenix said:

Desperation helps alot.

Saizo's refined Smoke Dagger does -6 to all stats on the target and all foes within two spaces. It's the ultimate debuffer, even if he's not that great combat-wise.

Desperation helps, but it is not enough. Brave Dagger outclasses Pershkatz in lower score ranges by doing a ton more damage while Firesweep outclasses Pershkatz in higher ranges by avoiding counter attacks completely. There are times when you simply cannot get into Desperation range in higher tiers when every enemy on the team got Distant Counter and massive Atk.

Oh, you mean the regular Refinements. But anyone can use those though through skill inheritance.

Edit: Ninjaed. Or is it ninja'd?

Edited August 8, 2018 by XRay

[redlight]

2 hours ago, Othin said:

Barb Shuriken and Wo Gun had precedent in non-seasonal weapons. These do not, they only really resemble past seasonal weapons.

Hunter's Knife and Sting Shuriken do exist in Fates. Maybe they'll strip them of the Hardy Bearing effect when they get introduced, but otherwise there is a source for these weapons to come from when introducing new heroes.

EDIT: Sorry, I gave the wrong reasoning. If we look at Kagami Mochi then we understand that it's a slaying weapon for daggers. If we look at these daggers then their x-effective weapons of daggers

Edited August 8, 2018 by silveraura25

[Othin]

5 hours ago, silveraura25 said:

Hunter's Knife and Sting Shuriken do exist in Fates. Maybe they'll strip them of the Hardy Bearing effect when they get introduced, but otherwise there is a source for these weapons to come from when introducing new heroes.

EDIT: Sorry, I gave the wrong reasoning. If we look at Kagami Mochi then we understand that it's a slaying weapon for daggers. If we look at these daggers then their x-effective weapons of daggers

I could see more daggers with effective bonuses being added to the normal pool, but not with Hardy Bearing, and versions of these that are the same just without Hardy Bearing would be kind of boring. So I don't see future ones as having much to do with these.

[Midnox]

The only dagger I see deadly enough to be at least viable in arena is Sothe. Dawg is ridiculously fast and strong, but careful with his poor defenses XD. Seriously, you don't want that guy attacking first 

[Diovani Bressan]

Dagger units are not that viable in arena. The only dagger unit I use normally is NY!Takumi with Windsweep and Refined Smoke Dagger, but I only use him in Arena Assault and together with Gunnthrá to help her. A dagger unit (mainly a smoke dagger) with Gunnthrá is a great combo, but being 2 ranged unit affect your arena score. NY!Takumi has the higher BST total, with 152, but Sothe has a legendary weapon which works pretty well with Gunnthrá too.

A good way to make dagger units more viable in arena is introducing Firesweep dagger or skill, or maybe Brave Dagger.

The new daggers are great, but sadly you cannot use Desperation with them.

[Arcphoenix]

I just realized something. Elincia's dagger is the first inheritable weapon in the game with a bonus against dragons. Not sure if that amounts to much given it's a dagger, but it definitely stands out

Edited August 10, 2018 by Arcphoenix

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Arcphoenix said:

I just realized something. Elincia's dagger is the first inheritable weapon in the game with a bonus against dragons. Not sure if that amounts to much given it's a dagger, but it definitely stands out

In my opinion, it does not amount to much because it is not a Brave Dagger or Firesweep Dagger, not because there is something intrinsically wrong with dagger Weapons or dagger units themselves. Unless you are scoring like 740+ or something where you will see lots of armor units, effective Weapons are pretty situational.

Once Firesweep Dagger and Brave Dagger is released, dagger units will be used much more frequently. If people thought Reinhardt and BH!Lyn was annoying, wait until they see ASS!Linde with either of those daggers. Assuming enemies are bunched up together, ASS!Linde running Brave Dagger can efficiently capitalize on her +7 Atk lead (from debuffs) over Reinhardt with Dancer/Singer support. If ASS!Linde runs Firesweep, her 34/35 offensive stat spread is superior to BH!Lyn's 32/35 spread.

Edited August 10, 2018 by XRay

[NekoKnight]

On 8/8/2018 at 4:12 PM, Johann said:

as would having Windsweep and Watersweep 3 in the 4* pool.

This is the biggest barrier, I think. When you have bulky armors and dragons, who almost always have DC, clustering Arena, it makes it difficult to engage them, rendering the support function of daggers nonviable.

On 8/9/2018 at 6:36 AM, Othin said:

I could see more daggers with effective bonuses being added to the normal pool, but not with Hardy Bearing, and versions of these that are the same just without Hardy Bearing would be kind of boring.

Honestly, with Hardy Bearing disabling your Desperation and Vantage on enemies not being nearly as common as it used to be, I think it would be an improvement on those daggers, and welcome additions into the pool. If daggers are the utility weapon class, more options for patching team weaknesses is for the best.

[Othin]

2 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Honestly, with Hardy Bearing disabling your Desperation and Vantage on enemies not being nearly as common as it used to be, I think it would be an improvement on those daggers, and welcome additions into the pool. If daggers are the utility weapon class, more options for patching team weaknesses is for the best.

Fair enough.