shut up, chrom is in smash ultimate

[SoulWeaver]

...So I was the only one who was certain he'd be in 5mash after hearing his line about getting his chance another day during Sm4sh?

In all seriousness, hey, I'll take it, I did feel kind of bad for the guy getting his spot swiped last time by his daughter and best friend despite being the actual Lord character. Also can I just say it'll be great to watch Viridi have to eat her own words about Chrom being a carbon copy of Ike but without Aether?

[Anomalocaris]

I'm pretty neutral on Chrom.

I'd have preferred a different FE Echo fighter since Awakening's already got two characters, but I won't begrudge the people who wanted Chrom in Smash.

[ZeManaphy]

Although I would have prefered Azura, we should be grateful FE got another represantative, especially since its on par with Pokemon, but unlike Pokemon, Fe is significantly smaller, so its harder to justify a large roster.

[Light Strategist]

5 hours ago, Johann said:

I guess they figured Falchion was too small to slip Chrom into Ike's moveset, or else they'd have to do the work of balancing and/or animating his range difference. There's also the whole "my father taught me how to fight" thing, and Ike's moveset is pretty far removed from Lucina's.

That reason alone is why I feel annoyed at Lucina having Marth's moves, since she doesn't fight with Marth's style at all.

Honestly though, I'd like to see the Black Knight in, be it as an Echo or as a Newcomer. He could shake things up a little. I'd love for Morgan to be a Robin Echo too. If there's one person I want in above all else, it'd be Dante from Devil May Cry.

[Johann]

45 minutes ago, Light Strategist said:

Honestly though, I'd like to see the Black Knight in, be it as an Echo or as a Newcomer. He could shake things up a little. I'd love for Morgan to be a Robin Echo too. If there's one person I want in above all else, it'd be Dante from Devil May Cry.

Interestingly, when you consider that many of the Mii outfits from Wii U have been promoted to either playable or assist trophy, I figure Black Knight is a possibility if they really wanna push the limits of how many playable FE characters they can add. He'd be the ideal Ike echo, and is arguably one of the simpler FE characters to model. Ike does still have his BK color scheme, while the Chrom and Dark Samus color schemes were dropped, but he's so drastically different in appearance that it wouldn't be a big deal.

Of course, it's just as likely, if not more so, that he'd be an Assist Trophy or even a boss. Still, I'd suspect that we'll see at least a couple new playable characters spring up from the Mii outfits.

[Light Strategist]

5 minutes ago, Johann said:

Interestingly, when you consider that many of the Mii outfits from Wii U have been promoted to either playable or assist trophy, I figure Black Knight is a possibility if they really wanna push the limits of how many playable FE characters they can add. He'd be the ideal Ike echo, and is arguably one of the simpler FE characters to model. Ike does still have his BK color scheme, while the Chrom and Dark Samus color schemes were dropped, but he's so drastically different in appearance that it wouldn't be a big deal.

Of course, it's just as likely, if not more so, that he'd be an Assist Trophy or even a boss. Still, I'd suspect that we'll see at least a couple new playable characters spring up from the Mii outfits.

His Final Smash would be Eclipse. It'd be perfect. His Up Special'd need a change though.

[DMan64]

For myself, I actually think Chrom makes a ton of sense, he's pretty much the modern face of Fire Emblem, works well as an echo for Roy seeing as his blade does consistent damage; similar in  concept to Lucina to Marth, and he was very highly requested, making him a safer, though potentially less rewarding spin on Roy, and has some elements of Ike(such as a seemingly faster version of Aether) for a recovery and different final smash.

That said, on the subject of their being anymore FE fighters, well, that gets tricky.

On one hand Echo Fighters aren't technically counted as fully fledged characters, and I feel like the only reason they are a focus in this particular game is to get in popular characters from franchises that otherwise probably wouldn't over more unique characters, and given how much these new characters are appealing to fan request, Chrom was kind of an easy shoe in.  Thus, if you wanna be technical, you could make the justification that there are only really 5 FE Characters(but that's a pretty big stretch).  Thus it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for a FE character to be included down the line.  Not to mention, FE is in a unique position where it is getting increasingly popular, and the main series doesn't really have a set cast, thus the series has a ton of potential for newcomers, seeing as Smash usually focuses on characters from mainline games, rather than spin offs(with some exceptions like Daisy).

On the other hand, you can make the argument that there are technically 7 FE characters, all of whom have swords, and mostly play very similar (I mean, we practically have 4 versions of Marth) which is where I feel most of the contention is at when people say 'too many FE characters'.  With the exception of Robin and Corrin, who deviate away from the swords to some extent, everyone has the same fundamental idea of gameplay.  Even Corrin to some extent plays very similarly to every other sword fighter, despite her unique elements.

Thus, if a new FE character were to be included, I feel it would have to be DLC, and/or a character who doesn't use a sword at all, which I feel would be the only way to justify a true FE newcomer; characters like Edelguard for an axe user that can potentially use magic(going off of what I saw in the Three Houses trailer); maybe someone unexpected like Sharena or Fjorm as a lance user for Heroes because of how huge that game is despite being a mobile spin off, or a surprise Fates character like Takumi to be a purely projectile focused character(if you say they wouldn't add another Fates character, well, we got 3 Awakening reps).  On the subject of a DLC character, it probably would be Three Houses, though I feel that it would really depend on how successful the game ends up being.  If it sells like 2-4 million and gets a ton of praise, then it could be more likely a character from the game gets in.

It's also important to consider that a good chunk of the smash fanbase may consist of a good number Fire Emblem fans.  I can't tell you how many times on Smash Boards I've seen people creating move sets for all sorts of FE characters, and seeing as Smash is pretty much responsible for introducing the series to many, it wouldn't be that surprising.  (Heck there was a national Smash tournament dedicated to the franchise by 2GGaming as part of their tournament circuit in 2017, being their fall finale no less) It may seem like kind of a strange point to make, but it's point I feel is worth noting.

I apologize that this was so long, but I thought it would be an interesting idea to look at.  At the end of the day, I'm glad to see Chrom finally get his chance in Smash, and while I personally would've like anyone else, I'll gladly give him a shot.

[Yexin]

so

was it really THAT necessary to add chrom?

i mean, now FE has 7 characters (8 if we count lyn in), and all of them are damn swordfighters, also 2 of them are clones

it's pretty laughable, if you ask me, and i'm starting to think that FE deserves the image other people have about the series, because they did nothing to make them change idea

also, chrom's up smash is multihit, just like roy's, but it's super cringe since chrom's falchion doesn't have any visual effect that would suggest a multihit move

same thing for the neutral b: he charges an attack with extreme power, and falchion gains like... dust and wind visual effects? seriously?

 

simon and richter are super hype tho (and please, "Simon" is pronounced "C-Mon", not "Cy-Mon": he's french, not english)

Edited August 9, 2018 by Yexin

[MacLovin]

give me hector dammit

[eclipse]

3 hours ago, Light Strategist said:

His Final Smash would be Eclipse. It'd be perfect. His Up Special'd need a change though.

You rang?

Chrom seems like an odd choice for an echo of Roy.  I would've loved to have seen someone like Eliwood instead, but eh.  I'm sure there will be complaints about Yet Another FE Swordie, but as long as he's fun to play as, I don't have an issue with him.

[NoirCore]

2 hours ago, Yexin said:

so

was it really THAT necessary to add chrom?

i mean, now FE has 7 characters (8 if we count lyn in), and all of them are damn swordfighters, also 2 of them are clones

it's pretty laughable, if you ask me, and i'm starting to think that FE deserves the image other people have about the series, because they did nothing to make them change idea

also, chrom's up smash is multihit, just like roy's, but it's super cringe since chrom's falchion doesn't have any visual effect that would suggest a multihit move

same thing for the neutral b: he charges an attack with extreme power, and falchion gains like... dust and wind visual effects? seriously?

 

simon and richter are super hype tho (and please, "Simon" is pronounced "C-Mon", not "Cy-Mon": he's french, not english)

I assume you aren't fond of Echo fighters? Mixed moveset aside, it's not like it took much effort to make him compared to a new character, similarly to Lucina and presumably Roy. Yes, I agree, too many swords, but you may want to calm down on the "FE deserves its bad rep" part.

[Kahvi]

I'm pretty happy that he's in. I mean, he's popular and they already had a model for him (probably did some tweaking from smash 4 to ultimate, but still). I do understand why some people are upset but I think it makes sense that they added him.

As to why he's a Roy echo and not an Ike echo, I have no idea. Maybe they thought he isn't cool enough for Ike.

[The DanMan]

6 hours ago, Yexin said:

so

was it really THAT necessary to add chrom?

i mean, now FE has 7 characters (8 if we count lyn in), and all of them are damn swordfighters, also 2 of them are clones

it's pretty laughable, if you ask me, and i'm starting to think that FE deserves the image other people have about the series, because they did nothing to make them change idea

also, chrom's up smash is multihit, just like roy's, but it's super cringe since chrom's falchion doesn't have any visual effect that would suggest a multihit move

same thing for the neutral b: he charges an attack with extreme power, and falchion gains like... dust and wind visual effects? seriously?

 

simon and richter are super hype tho (and please, "Simon" is pronounced "C-Mon", not "Cy-Mon": he's french, not english)

Toggle the CSS option. Now there's only 5 FE characters. ...And why the heck do Assist Trophies count when talking about playable characters?

Of course we'd only get similar characters as Echoes because they're clones by their very nature; people were expecting Chrom as soon as we saw Ike had lost the palette and Robin's final smash was one of the few that hadn't been shown. And most everybody was expecting Chrom to suddenly be using lightning (because of TMS and FEW), so it's a bit surprising they went with more generic effects.

News flash: FE has a tremendous sword bias. Out of the 18 lords (Marth, Alm, Celica, Sigurd, Seliph, Leif, Roy, Eliwood, Hector, Lyn, Eirika, Ephraim, Ike, Micaiah, Chrom, Lucina, Robin, Corrin) in released games, Hector, Ephraim, and Micaiah are the only ones who don't use swords in some capacity-- and among those who do, Celica and Robin split the focus with magic. 13 FE lords primarily or exclusively use swords. 
TL;DR FE does have a hell of a sword bias. Also, basically nobody cares aside from certain gamefaqs users and Kotaku because the Belmonts and K. Rool were also revealed in the same Direct; FE fans are the ones complaining the most about Chrom, as far as I can tell.

[DMan64]

For people who are upset, I can understand, but Echo fighters don't take that much development time so why not put him in there to please the many people who wanted him in.

As for why he's an echo of Roy, well, maybe it's the fact that they wanted Chrom to parallel Lucina in the sense that she is a low-risk, low reward Marth due to lack of tipper.  Chrom is basically low-risk, low-reward Roy, without a sweetspot at the hilt.  As for why he has an Aether recovery, that could be a reference to Smash 4 with the Palutena's guidance.

That said, FE reps have a bad rep I feel because they all focus on swords(and again, we have four versions characters with very similar/identical move sets), and I personally feel that if we did get a full on newcomer, who completely deviated away from the swords, people probably wouldn't mind as much and may find it very cool, though may still be a bit upset that it is another FE character, and I feel Sakurai probably knows that, so for now he's focusing on what people want now, being more characters from underrepresented series like DK and Metroid and heavily fan requested characters like King K. Rool, Ridley, Simon, Inkling, and every single Echo Fighter, and that said, people generally seem fine with Chrom in that regard.

[Yexin]

4 hours ago, NoirCore said:

I assume you aren't fond of Echo fighters? Mixed moveset aside, it's not like it took much effort to make him compared to a new character, similarly to Lucina and presumably Roy. Yes, I agree, too many swords, but you may want to calm down on the "FE deserves its bad rep" part.

no, i indeed am not a fan of echo fighets

i mean ok, i know they can make happy lots of fans with realtively low efforts, but i just can't get to like them: it's a problem of mine, i know that

 

and no, i don't want to calm down the "FE deserves its bad rep" part, because i strongly agree with that statement

just imagine all those people who (imho) rightfully complained about 2 smash 4 dlc characters being "anime swordfighters from fire emblem"

i don't know about you, but i saw many videos with people complaining about the favoritism fe got, and about the fact that they were all swordfighters

then they come up with a new smash direct, introducing two new echo fighters and omg, one of them is... another anime swordfighter from fire emblem

then they start presenting new items, and wow, one of them is... literally a sword from fire emblem! now everyone can be an anime swordfighter from fire emblem, aren't we all damn happy about that?

i perfectly know they did it because it took basically 0 efforts, they just modeled a new item, since playable characters already have the lightsaber animations which have been recycled for the killing edge, but come on, look at all the details and efforts they're putting in the game: was that really the best they could have done?

couldn't that killing edge have been a killer axe, just to twist things a little? was it really that hard to make an unique animation for said killer axe?

i'm 100% sure sakurai is aware about the fact that fe has too many characters, and that they are all too similar to smash's general public, i remember he himself once stated this during an interview, so i really wonder what made him change idea

i'm ok with dark samus, the metroid series is pretty underrepresented, but fe didn't need it at all, imho

 

look, i know i'm one of the minority of people who dislike chrom in smash, and i know i may sound arrogant, stupid and annoying, but that's just how i feel

i'm one of those people who thinks that if you have to do one thing, either you do it the best way you can, or you just don't do it

honestly, in this smash i would've liked not to see anything new from fire emblem, i think we already had too much (more like "i thought")

 

@The DanMan

1) i was not talking about playable characters specifically in that line, i was talink about fe's general representation in smash, and lyn's part of it just like every other fe character, even if she's just an assist trophy

2) it's not the fact that echoes are too similar to their base character, it's their nature: what i don't like is the idea of echo fighters itself, i don't like clones in smash (nor in any other fighting game)

3) fe's tremendous sword bias doesn't mean there are no non-sword main characters, as you acknowledged yourself, and it doesn't justify the lack of other weapon types in smash

 

4 hours ago, Kahvi said:

As to why he's a Roy echo and not an Ike echo, I have no idea. Maybe they thought he isn't cool enough for Ike.

 

16 minutes ago, DMan64 said:

As for why he's an echo of Roy, well, maybe it's the fact that they wanted Chrom to parallel Lucina

can you really imagine chrom charging a side smash with extreme power like ike does, even with his tiny little falchion? also they should've modified falchion's hitboxes: he wouldn't have been an echo anymore, just a "marth-like" skin but with ike's moveset

19 minutes ago, DMan64 said:

FE reps have a bad rep I feel because they all focus on swords(and again, we have four versions characters with very similar/identical move sets), and I personally feel that if we did get a full on newcomer, who completely deviated away from the swords, people probably wouldn't mind as much and may find it very cool, though may still be a bit upset that it is another FE character, and I feel Sakurai probably knows that, so for now he's focusing on what people want now, being more characters from underrepresented series like DK and Metroid and heavily fan requested characters like King K. Rool, Ridley, Simon, Inkling, and every single Echo Fighter, and that said, people generally seem fine with Chrom in that regard.

exactly this

underrepresented series need echo fighters, fe didn't need two of them (also one of them is a clone of a semiclone who once was a clone, such mindfuck)

[Fabulously Olivier]

On the topic of echo fighters, Ganondorf deserves better than just being a bad echo fighter of Captain Falcon. 

If he was reworked to say... Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf with a Wind Waker costume, that would be even better than a new character.

[DMan64]

 

@Yexin I can totally see where you are coming from, but as @The DanMan pointed out, FE naturally has a sword bias, and main characters are more likely to get in over side characters(with kind of the exception to Robin and Lucina).

But, that said, while some are miphed at Chrom's inclusion, most people are totally fine, or for some excited by it because he isn't taking away from any of the new fighters and isn't even really counted as his own fighter.  And since these newcomers seem to be focused on getting more for under-represented franchises and fan-favorite characters that people just really wanted to see, so why not put him in.

Which is why I feel if FE does get a full-fledged newcomer, it won't be until DLC, and it would probably be someone from Three Houses, or maybe even Heroes due to its success despite being a mobile spin-off, and it would be someone with a completely unique move-set for the character, because at this point, I think Sakurai has to know that people would like to have a non-sword fighting FE character.

Like, imagine if the Summoner were a character, calling upon different FE characters to utilize in his move-set, and depending on which color gem you have, affects what type of moves you'll do; or Fjorm as an ice-based lance user, or Edelgard as an ax fighter who may also be able to use some form of magic to promote/celebrate the release of Three Houses; any one of these characters would be great as DLC down the line, but right now, Chrom is there because of the fan-service like every other character thus far, echo or other-wise.

EDIT: @Etheus I mean, we can have three Links, why not another Ganon?

Edited August 9, 2018 by DMan64

[Fabulously Olivier]

15 minutes ago, DMan64 said:

 

@Yexin I can totally see where you are coming from, but as @The DanMan pointed out, FE naturally has a sword bias, and main characters are more likely to get in over side characters(with kind of the exception to Robin and Lucina).

But, that said, while some are miphed at Chrom's inclusion, most people are totally fine, or for some excited by it because he isn't taking away from any of the new fighters and isn't even really counted as his own fighter.  And since these newcomers seem to be focused on getting more for under-represented franchises and fan-favorite characters that people just really wanted to see, so why not put him in.

Which is why I feel if FE does get a full-fledged newcomer, it won't be until DLC, and it would probably be someone from Three Houses, or maybe even Heroes due to its success despite being a mobile spin-off, and it would be someone with a completely unique move-set for the character, because at this point, I think Sakurai has to know that people would like to have a non-sword fighting FE character.

Like, imagine if the Summoner were a character, calling upon different FE characters to utilize in his move-set, and depending on which color gem you have, affects what type of moves you'll do; or Fjorm as an ice-based lance user, or Edelgard as an ax fighter who may also be able to use some form of magic to promote/celebrate the release of Three Houses; any one of these characters would be great as DLC down the line, but right now, Chrom is there because of the fan-service like every other character thus far, echo or other-wise.

EDIT: @Etheus I mean, we can have three Links, why not another Ganon?

To be honest, I'm not a fan of the three versions of Link at all - not when characters like Impa, Midna, Zant, Ghirahim, Skull Kid, Ruto, the 4 Champions, or anyone else (that isn't Tingle) exist. But ultimately, I think the distinction comes down to current Ganondorf not being a quality representation of any of his game incarnations or the character as a whole.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Etheus

[DMan64]

@Etheus Yeah I see what you mean. I was just saying that as a joke really.

On a serious note, I do want to see a new Zelda rep, and I feel it could be one of a few options; on the cynical side we'd get an echo of Sheik in the form of Impa or Toon Zelda, for Zelda, but on the other hand, we could someone like Tetra combining the Zelda and Pirate persona, or get one of the four champions from BotW, and liberties can be taken so that we get the most popular one, but they just happen to share the abilities of the others (for example, we get Revali as an archer character, and his specials include Revali's Gale and the abilities of the other Champions; this can be done with any one of them.) though if this were to happen, I feel like it would be DLC, given that other franchises really needed it quite a bit, like Metroid and DK.

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 minutes ago, DMan64 said:

@Etheus Yeah I see what you mean. I was just saying that as a joke really.

On a serious note, I do want to see a new Zelda rep, and I feel it could be one of a few options; on the cynical side we'd get an echo of Sheik in the form of Impa or Toon Zelda, for Zelda, but on the other hand, we could someone like Tetra combining the Zelda and Pirate persona, or get one of the four champions from BotW, and liberties can be taken so that we get the most popular one, but they just happen to share the abilities of the others (for example, we get Revali as an archer character, and his specials include Revali's Gale and the abilities of the other Champions; this can be done with any one of them.) though if this were to happen, I feel like it would be DLC, given that other franchises really needed it quite a bit, like Metroid and DK.

I do really want to see the BotW champions, but I think there may be scoping issues. The only real way to represent them in playable form is as a transforming character or to have them somehow all cooperate in a single moveset like the Ice Climbers. To only include one would be just wrong, and I see an assist trophy as being perhaps the most realistic means of including them. 

 

Also, is there like a poll with the most popular Champion? I've seen no evidence on that front, and I had just always assumed that Mipha was the most popular.

[DMan64]

@Etheus I don't know if there is an actual poll, I was just saying that to provide an example. 

Also I see where you're coming from, but to put in every champion would prove quite a challenging task, and while it can definitely happen, I'm looking at it as in what would be the best chance to get a full fledged Zelda newcomer, and to me having either one with a distinct move-set reflecting said character and the rest as assist trophies, or having one that shares special abilities from the others.  I really do love the idea of them being a transformation character, but that would be a very difficult task.  Then again, seeing as DLC is probably very likely, that could probably raise the chance of them being an all-in-one fighter later down the line.

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 minutes ago, DMan64 said:

@Etheus I don't know if there is an actual poll, I was just saying that to provide an example. 

Also I see where you're coming from, but to put in every champion would prove quite a challenging task, and while it can definitely happen, I'm looking at it as in what would be the best chance to get a full fledged Zelda newcomer, and to me having either one with a distinct move-set reflecting said character and the rest as assist trophies, or having one that shares special abilities from the others.  I really do love the idea of them being a transformation character, but that would be a very difficult task.  Then again, seeing as DLC is probably very likely, that could probably raise the chance of them being an all-in-one fighter later down the line.

Perhaps the easiest playable incarnation of the 4 would be something akin to having one playable while the others provide support via specials from the background, similar to how Pokemon trainer stands in the background. 

[DMan64]

@EtheusThat would work too, that reminds me a lot of what people say about having Rex and Pyra/Mythra playable honestly, where Rex is the main fighter, but then you have Mythra and/or Pyra helping out in the background.  It may prove to be the best shot of having the four represented in one character, either that or the characters pop up when using their certain moves, similar to how Toad appears for Peach/Daisy now.

[NoirCore]

@Yexin Sounds like we're at odds, then. I get the complaints, but I feel like they're getting too petty. We've gotten over 70 characters now and counting; I feel like 4 characters resembling each other is minimal at this point. If anything, the last two new FE reps (moving Lucina back), Robin and Corrin, aren't just "anime swordfighters"; Robin has a unique weapon durability mechanic and uses magic, and Corrin shapeshifts their body parts into a lance and some crazy draconic maw from their hands to blast energy among other things. Yes, they use swords, but that's not mainly who they are. Chrom is just a minor trip in my view, and nothing worth crying over.

As for the Killing Edge, ...it's Fire Emblem's first item, and now people just want to talk it down because it's a sword? If people are angry that it "creates more generic sword fighters", then that's a stretch of an argument. I'm rather happy there's ANY FE items over none, no matter how "minimal" their functionality is (not that I really think the functionality is that bad; the critical hit part is interesting). Besides, the Killing Edge is one of the more memorable FE weapons that's not a legendary weapon exclusive to its wielder. The Killer Axe doesn't get that much notoriety in comparison from what I've seen.

[King Marth 64]

9 hours ago, Kahvi said:

I'm pretty happy that he's in. I mean, he's popular and they already had a model for him (probably did some tweaking from smash 4 to ultimate, but still). I do understand why some people are upset but I think it makes sense that they added him.

As to why he's a Roy echo and not an Ike echo, I have no idea. Maybe they thought he isn't cool enough for Ike.

I'm pretty sure Chrom's promotional class "Great Lord" does share Roy's since Roy is the first main character that promotes to Great Lord. Chrom did have different fighting style and some attacks that doesn't looked a lot like Marth uses in the Fire Emblem franchise.