"Johns" in Heroes

[Junkhead]

So with anyone unfamiliar to the term, it's basically a slang for excuses. It's mostly used in competitive Smash Bros. on people who make excuses.

You're probably wondering, in what kind of context would people "john" in a single player strategy game? I've seen my fair share of people discrediting others' (myself included) builds regarding their character's feats. In my case, I tend to do a lot of scenarios where I have my characters consistently go against the triangle. It seems people have a hard time swallowing that, or maybe even the result of effort, so they resort to things like that.  The other day, I reproduced a scenario where Libra would avoid a double from a 50 Spd Ayra and kill her thanks to that. A guy called me out on it, as if the 1 extra point in Spd he needed was some sort of unfair advantage or something. 

It's almost like you're not allowed to use actual strategy in a strategy game, and that characters have to beat one-another in "fair" terms a-la "No Items. Final Destination" motto.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Junkhead said:

So with anyone unfamiliar to the term, it's basically a slang for excuses. It's mostly used in competitive Smash Bros. on people who make excuses.

You're probably wondering, in what kind of context would people "john" in a single player strategy game? I've seen my fair share of people discrediting others' (myself included) builds regarding their character's feats. In my case, I tend to do a lot of scenarios where I have my characters consistently go against the triangle. It seems people have a hard time swallowing that, or maybe even the result of effort, so they resort to things like that.  The other day, I reproduced a scenario where Libra would avoid a double from a 50 Spd Ayra and kill her thanks to that. A guy called me out on it, as if the 1 extra point in Spd he needed was some sort of unfair advantage or something. 

It's almost like you're not allowed to use actual strategy in a strategy game, and that characters have to beat one-another in "fair" terms a-la "No Items. Final Destination" motto.

Maybe the other guy is saying that going against the triangle is not a reliable strategy?

You can sort of tank Ayra with Spd stacked Libra, but I would not count on that being reliable. Libra can reach 46 Spd I believe (+Spd, Spd Refine, Atk/Spd Bond/Atk/Spd Push, Spd +3) which should be just enough to avoid being doubled by Ayra unless she runs Life and Death or something that boosts her to 51 Spd. If she runs Even Spd Wave or got Spd Tactic buffs on top of that, good luck trying to tank that though.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Honestly can't say anything about your situation without full context, but I think the question of, "How easy is this to reproduce?" is very valid, especially given the nature of limited resources in this game. For instance, I've put over 200k feathers into my Florina, which allows her to duel and win against physical threats that would otherwise double and obliterate her at base. Additionally, she rolls straight over green mages—including some blade builds. Given the investment, though, I couldn't reasonably expect the average player get the same performance out of her. If I listed the things above, then someone came over to me and said, "That's cool and all, but that's not a practical use of resources.", I would agree. And I wouldn't care, because I built my super vanity unit to be a super vanity unit.

[Junkhead]

Quote

You can sort of tank Ayra with Spd stacked Libra, but I would not count on that being reliable. Libra can reach 46 Spd I believe (+Spd, Spd Refine, Atk/Spd Bond/Atk/Spd Push, Spd +3) which should be just enough to avoid being doubled by Ayra unless she runs Life and Death or something that boosts her to 51 Spd. If she runs Even Spd Wave or got Spd Tactic buffs on top of that, good luck trying to tank that though.

Well, I didn't include said Hones or Spd Tactics/Waves, Drives or even a Summoner S-support for that. In fact, he wasn't even +Spd.

Here's the actual example:

If you're curious about the A-slot, I find it's surprisingly good defensive. I used to really sleep on defensive Spd, so I really took it upon me to look into it. Ran examples against most other defensive A-slots and namely Steady Breath & Close Def against +Spd & +Atk examples of her, testing raw survibility (the last two using Atk Ploy instead of Spd Ploy). He marginally outperforms Steady Breath in that one aspect, disregarding the clear killing advantage  (4-Turn cooldowns). And for whatever it's worth, it doesn't severely limit him from being able to counter strong Greens as much as it looks like. I really like the first set, personally (since I also don't have Wrath yet).

The idea for me isn't to be built to counter only one character counter-triangle while sacrificing important matchups, but to be able to do that if you have the chance and might need it. I also like being flashy, so you can see why "doesn't need to" will never stop me. :p If I can prove it in a feasible setting, even better. I do flashy as long as it's supposed to make sense.

I also don't think I've ever run against Ayras reaching 50 and above all that much. The other day I saw one reaching 52, and then buffs. But it doesn't happen all that often for me, and I was simply highballing agaisnt him. A guy tells me he doesn't even see her at around 715-720+. Then again, I only barely scratch around that. 718 was my very max, of today (to which my Libra isn't even a part of, because fuck the system).

26 minutes ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

Honestly can't say anything about your situation without full context, but I think the question of, "How easy is this to reproduce?" is very valid, especially given the nature of limited resources in this game. For instance, I've put over 200k feathers into my Florina, which allows her to duel and win against physical threats that would otherwise double and obliterate her at base. Additionally, she rolls straight over green mages—including some blade builds. Given the investment, though, I couldn't reasonably expect the average player get the same performance out of her. If I listed the things above, then someone came over to me and said, "That's cool and all, but that's not a practical use of resources.", I would agree. And I wouldn't care, because I built my super vanity unit to be a super vanity unit.

The thing is, I base a lot of these under workable. Doable, and hence, "consistent". I don't assume a guy sorrounded by 3 people, each with doubles Spurs on top of a cover tile. In fact, I tend to make them generous and assume Drives and Tactics, which doesn't even tend to require more than one or two sorrounding units. A lot of these are no different than what people do to feed Blade Tomes (assuming they don't have full Tactics). And this is the lesser case scenarios, which is overall minimal, if the result is being able to survive and kill counter-triangle.

I think you overstimate a lot of these people. They legitimately sound like the only think they can do is poke at this or the other, rather than give sound arguements like you guys are doing. These people are definitely not one of those.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Junkhead

[XRay]

@Junkhead Okay, I think I know why he sounds so dismissive and is saying that it is not fair. I think impractical would be the better word in this case. You are giving Libra +1 merge while Ayra got +0. You are also assuming that Ayra does not have access to buffs, which is a pretty huge assumption to make. If you make small tweaks like that and tip the scales in your favor, then yeah, you can practically make any unit counter any unit.

I mean, sure, your scenario is realistic, since most Ayras are not even optimized at +0, but most players do not care about that scenario because it is not a matchup that people have difficulty dealing with.

Most players generally set up the enemies in the calculator to have an equal or greater stat advantage, since preparing for the worst case scenario is what matters in their mind. Sure, you can set up the calculator to fight weaker enemies and make your case that going against the triangle is possible, but to most players (including me), that just highlights how impractical and unreliable it is to go against the triangle in the first place.

[Astellius]

3 hours ago, Junkhead said:

You're probably wondering, in what kind of context would people "john" in a single player strategy game? I've seen my fair share of people discrediting others' (myself included) builds regarding their character's feats.

Actually, there tend to be quite a few johns around these parts when it comes to GHBs and the like. I see plenty of people complain that they can't do Infernal mode because they don't have the right units or whatnot, and they'll claim it's literally impossible for them. This can be frustrating, especially if you've done some work trying to help them get a clear.

[EricaofRenais]

1 hour ago, Astellius said:

Actually, there tend to be quite a few johns around these parts when it comes to GHBs and the like. I see plenty of people complain that they can't do Infernal mode because they don't have the right units or whatnot, and they'll claim it's literally impossible for them. This can be frustrating, especially if you've done some work trying to help them get a clear.

This is how I feel, I want to help but when I get "oh I hate x unit" or "I don't have the same IVs and I won't use SI or seals" I get very annoyed and I have decided I won't offer advice anymore on GHBs.

[Rezzy]

The two slang term definitions I know for "johns" is toilets and prostitute customers.  I did not know there was a third definition.  When did this become a thing?

[Lemmy]

1 hour ago, Rezzy said:

The two slang term definitions I know for "johns" is toilets and prostitute customers.  I did not know there was a third definition.  When did this become a thing?

it's a melee smash term that's mostly died out, similiar to how scrub died out sometime in the 90s but some gamers kept it on life support.

even in the smash comunity, it's a contrived reference

[NekoKnight]

9 hours ago, Astellius said:

Actually, there tend to be quite a few johns around these parts when it comes to GHBs and the like. I see plenty of people complain that they can't do Infernal mode because they don't have the right units or whatnot, and they'll claim it's literally impossible for them. This can be frustrating, especially if you've done some work trying to help them get a clear.

7 hours ago, EricaofRenais said:

This is how I feel, I want to help but when I get "oh I hate x unit" or "I don't have the same IVs and I won't use SI or seals" I get very annoyed and I have decided I won't offer advice anymore on GHBs.

I don't see this attitude often. Or rather, i don't see it from a lot of players. There is one member here who routinely ignores advice and is loud and angry about their inability to clear challenges easily, however.

---

This topic seems really specific to a situation that happens mostly to the OP.

 

[Loki Laufeyson]

On August 13, 2018 at 1:34 PM, Astellius said:

Actually, there tend to be quite a few johns around these parts when it comes to GHBs and the like. I see plenty of people complain that they can't do Infernal mode because they don't have the right units or whatnot, and they'll claim it's literally impossible for them. This can be frustrating, especially if you've done some work trying to help them get a clear.

 

On August 13, 2018 at 2:49 PM, EricaofRenais said:

This is how I feel, I want to help but when I get "oh I hate x unit" or "I don't have the same IVs and I won't use SI or seals" I get very annoyed and I have decided I won't offer advice anymore on GHBs.

One in particular stands out, and how!

i do think the term "john" is too umm..out there and vague for this kind of player. Just call them for what they are: Whiners. 

I will try to replicate strats when im getting pounded by ghbs/lbs/bhbs. Ill watch videos my friends have made, or ftp vids. Sometimes i just dont have the patience so i just shrug and move on or try again when i feel like it. I dont get the point in whinging about stuff like that. Id expect even ftp players whove been playing for a year or more to have a good to decent roster of units. 

[MacLovin]

the game has a shitload of decent free units. Fjorm, V!Ike, and TT!BK are the outliers, but the rest are still decent with some investment.

• The GHB units are fairly decent overall. Xander/Zephiel/Michalis/Arvis are probably the best.  Lloyd/Navarre/Narshen are probably the worst out of the bunch, but they're still almost fully prebuilt. Narshen himself is basically a flying wall. 
• The TTower units are also still pretty decent overall. although the early ones need some investment (Maskcina, Tobin, Clive), they're still fully ok for f2p. Gerome/Canas are TTower units that come at 5*s all prebuilt. Finn/Groom Marth/NY Corn aren't amazing, but they're still fully good dudes. Arden is amazing, albeit a little overshadowed by the fucking BK. Marisa is infantry pulse and Joshua is a tanky sword dude. All in all, they kinda just range from "okish" to good. 
• The daily rotation dudes are either great fodder (subaki) or decent investments. (fir? fucking hell i forgot most of them, but they're all usable with assigned jobs). Hell, Olivia is the savior for f2p people as long as you're not fucking stupid.
• You get a free pick of a CYL unit. They're all good. 
• There's seals. It's easy enough to use them when need be.
• There's a plethora of great 3-4* units from the gacha. Ares, Soleil, Fir, Cordelia, Reinhardt, Nino, Raven, Klein, and Leon come to mind for dudes that are really simple to pick up and raise asap.
• The entire game has design issues, but it's still quite generous for a fucking gacha game. 

[Hilda]

4 hours ago, Loki Laufeyson said:

 

One in particular stands out, and how!

i do think the term "john" is too umm..out there and vague for this kind of player. Just call them for what they are: Whiners. 

I will try to replicate strats when im getting pounded by ghbs/lbs/bhbs. Ill watch videos my friends have made, or ftp vids. Sometimes i just dont have the patience so i just shrug and move on or try again when i feel like it. I dont get the point in whinging about stuff like that. Id expect even ftp players whove been playing for a year or more to have a good to decent roster of units. 

I agree, and second the Infernal modes can be cleared with a 0 merged Askr Team... and that was pre weapon refinement they got, so all in all those people that whine i cant understand because it surely takes less investment to clear them with units that have merges and are quite stronger then the Askr Trio pulled together. What i hate most about those poeple is that they feel entitled that everything should be handed over to them without putting in any kind of work/thought/strategy...

[Ice Dragon]

This thread has started to feel like listening to my mom talking on the phone: Talking about someone behind their back with them fully present. If you have something to say about someone, say it to their face.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[Hilda]

52 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

This thread has started to feel like listening to my mom talking on the phone: Talking about someone behind their back with them fully present. If you have something to say about someone, say it to their face.

Have done so and got infracted. I was speaking in a more general point of view, this doesnt only refer to FEH.

[Roflolxp54]

Honestly, the outdated term just doesn't really work in FEH aside from not being able to use some F2P strategy to clear a Hero Battle map of some kind or the quest for said map since it's usually the player's own fault if they don't have the units that are readily available (ie. Ike, Fjorm, Olivia, Lissa/Wrys).

It doesn't work for the OP's scenario as players generally do not have a say in what units they can get most of the time due to FEH being a gacha game (can't do Libra shenanigans outside of the battle simulator if you and your FEH friends have never pulled Libra in the first place). Spending hundreds if not thousands of orbs does not guarantee the chance of getting the units you want; even if you pull a specific color many times, it can still take many, many tries before you can pull even a specific non-5*-locked unit. For example, I, an active day-1 player, had never pulled a single Kagero for the first 11 months since FEH's release even after pulling colorless multiple times (mainly during Bride Lyn's and Brave Lyn's debut banners). It also took me a couple months before I got my first Soleil, M!Morgan, and Nanna after they got added to the 4* pool.