My Version of the Summoning Pool

[Vaximillian]

11 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

If your favorite character happens to be a 5-star exclusive that you'll never have any hope of getting to +10, you're in no way prevented from still giving them the best skills you have on hand.

Just like Sharena but without the 5-star exclusive part. RIP the Askran trio. At least them receiving a refinement might spell a hope for them.

[redlight]

Here's who I'd demote to the 3-4 star pool from the 5 star pool. There'd be more, but that'd get pretty controversial as I expect to be around as many demotions as last time and I'd have to pick units from end of 2017

Spoiler

Azura

Celica

Eldigan

Ephraim

Faye

Gray

Hinoka

Ike

Innes

Jaffar

Julia

Karel

Katarina

Leo

Linde

Lucina

Luke

Lyn

Minerva

Mist

Ninian

Olwen

Saber

Sanaki

Sonya

Tiki, Young

 

[bottlegnomes]

On 8/15/2018 at 8:01 PM, Pengaius said:

Really, care to explain your choices, Marth is an insanely good buffbot, when you need it and is only slightly less damaging than lucy in exchange for some decent bulk, the power difference isn't even a huge factor against dragons, thanks to falchions effectiveness Marth at least can actually take a hit from a dragon if he needs to, Lucina's poor res means she has to be support babied constantly to fight the crap ton of dragons in high tiers (I know Alm makes other falchion users obsolete as dragon fighters, but still) Marth can use drive skills for 5/2/2/2 on 3 units at a time, Lucina should not be an a higher list than Marth ( he should at least be 4-5 star) your Lucina bias is just making her seem good to you. 

Both of Lucina's refinement options for falchion make her significantly better. Those are massive bonuses that are rather easy to achieve.

 

On 8/16/2018 at 3:33 PM, SilvertheShadow said:

When it comes to units in the summoning pool, imo the following criteria should be considered, from most to least important.

1. Does the unit possess extraordinary stats or base weapon that sets them apart from other units of their type?

2. Does the unit possess rare or at least highly coveted skills/inheritable weapons?

3. Is the character have a decently sized following or have a large impact within the game they appeared in?

If the answer to all of them is no, then the unit should have absolutely no business being a 5 star. Olwen, Mist, and Gray come to mind who break all three of these “rules”. 

These are basically my thoughts as well. Even if Hector weren't amazing, he should still stay 5* excluse because DC is so coveted. Faye is a great example of that. Firesweep bow is a fantastic weapon that really probably doesn't need to flood the meta.

 

On 8/17/2018 at 1:50 AM, Vaximillian said:

Just like Sharena but without the 5-star exclusive part. RIP the Askran trio. At least them receiving a refinement might spell a hope for them.

Don't worry. Someday they'll give us all 10 free 5* copies of them. An hour before they shutdown the servers.

@silveraura25 

Celica - Maybe. She's still one of the top red mages though, and that means DD is in the 4* pool meaning way more DD6.

Faye - Like I said earlier, I'm not sure firesweep bows need to be easily accessible. Maybe at tier 19/20/21, nothing would change too much, but then there'd be a huge flood of L&D, CA, Firesweep brave Lyn, which would be miserable.

Hinoka - Hone Fliers in the 4* pool?

Julia - No Dierdre?

Katarina - Swift sparrow in the 4* pool?

Lucina - She's not the be-all-end-all of PP sword units anymore, but she's still on par with basically all the other 5* ones, and above any of the 4* and under ones that aren't Soleil thanks to the refinery being very kind to her. On top of that, she still has dragon slaying and combat medic roles to set her apart. None of those are especially unique, but Lucina is all three in one. I think Alm is about the only other unit that can claim that, and even then, his refinement either requires more downtime than Lucina's or more active support, i.e. external healing. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to +10 Lucina, but she strikes me as one of the less likely to drop.

 

[XRay]

On 8/17/2018 at 7:59 AM, silveraura25 said:

Azura

Ninian

Dancers/Singers are way too good to be dropped into the 4* pool for Player Phase players, just as how Distant Counter/Close Counter is too good to drop for Enemy Phase players.

On 8/17/2018 at 7:59 AM, silveraura25 said:

Celica

Faye

Ike

Katarina

Celica is one of the best infantry mages. With some planning, it is very difficult for Celica to be Chilled, as Ragnarok and Atk/Spd Push hides up 10 Atk and Spd.

Firesweep Bow is really, really good. Ignoring counterattacks is broken.

Ike has Distant Counter built into his Weapon.

Swift Sparrow is the best general purpose A skill for nukes.

[redlight]

@XRay which is why I said it'd be controversial. I'm expecting there to be about as many 5 star demotions as there were with the mass demotion. And I didn't even pick as many units for my list so there'd be many more to pick from

Refreshers have become meh. Won't have a huge impact on arena and are generally useful only in PvE content and AA. The only refreshers deserving of 5 star exclusivity is any dancer that's on a mount or armored.

Celica isn't really anything special. Gamepedia ranks her the same as a bunch of mages you can find in the 3-4 star pool and even a few of the easily available are much better than her.

Firesweep Bow is a good weapon, but it won't fix archers as a whole were it to be become more easily available.

Regarding Ike, you get DC weapon users for free, cavalry and armor at that. His stat spread is similar to Gray's perhaps slightly worse and is outclassed by several sword users. He hasn't withstood the test of time well

I do agree with you that Swift Sparrow is a good skill, but we've gotten it on so many units that perhaps it's time to just call it quits and make the damn skill easily available

Edited August 19, 2018 by silveraura25

[XRay]

1 minute ago, silveraura25 said:

Refreshers have become meh. Won't have a huge impact on arena and are generally useful only in PvE content and AA. The only refreshers deserving of 5 star exclusivity is any dancer that's on a mount or armored.

Dancers/Singers have a huge impact in scoring ranges at about 720 and below, which is where a lot of players are. That is the range where optimized Player Phase ranged units dominate.

8 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

Celica isn't really anything special. Gamepedia ranks her the same as a bunch of mages you can find in the 3-4 star pool and even a few of the easily available are much better than her.

Celica operate at the performance level of close to Blade mages without requiring buff support. She can also ignore Dull Range and Panic since Celica utilizes combat buffs and not bonus buffs. With a 4/4/0/0 buff, she surpasses Blade mages running the same buffs.

Tharja is not bad, but she is dependent on bonus buffs, which also makes her vulnerable to Chills, Dull Range, and Panic.

Katarina's Rees's Tome requires the player to line up the enemy.

M!Morgan does not have an offensive tome, and if he runs Rauðrblade, he will have the same benefits and problems as Tharja.

SM!Eirika needs buffs to compete with Celica. Gleipnir is good by itself, but it is no where as good as Ragnarok.

BB!Tharja and SA!Tana are both better, but they are limited units.

41 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

Firesweep Bow is a good weapon, but it won't fix archers as a whole were it to be become more easily available.

Firesweep Bow does fix archers. Being immune to counter attacks is insanely broken on a ranged unit.

43 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

Regarding Ike, you get DC weapon users for free, cavalry and armor at that. His stat spread is similar to Gray's perhaps slightly worse and is outclassed by several sword users. He hasn't withstood the test of time well

Free units have merging issues, and are not good for Arena once you get to the point were you need to optimize for score rather than performance. Fjorm and VL!Ike can only be summoned in specific Foci, so they are much harder to merge compared to units available in the regular pool.

Ike is outclassed, but not to the point where he is irrelevant. He can still get 90% of the kills that Ayra can get.

Ike +Spd, -Res
Ragnell, Moonbow
Atk/Spd Bond, Quick Riposte
Speed +3
Enemies +5, +Spd, Moonbow, Fury
Enemy Phase 185:44:49

SS!Ryoma +Spd, -Res
Raijinto, Moonbow
Atk/Spd Bond, Bushido
Quick Riposte
Enemies +5, +Spd, Moonbow, Fury
Enemy Phase 195:51:32

Ayra +Spd, -Res
Wo Dao [Spd], Moonbow
Distant Counter, Quick Riposte
Speed +3
Enemies +5, +Spd, Moonbow, Fury
Enemy Phase 206:16:56

[redlight]

@XRay at that range then yes they'd be dominant. Then again, you'd only be changing dancers, not have 3 heavily merged dancers and Reinhardt... Don't get any funny ideas and make someone's life a living hell?

I will say that Celica is good with combat buffs along with the other things you mentioned, but I don't think that warrants being a 5 star exclusive. Katarina also supports with debuffs so she's not the only one benefits from a better speed match-up despite the positioning con

Apologies, when you said he has a DC weapon I thought that was your only argument for him. There is definitely great utility in having a DC weapon, but there are other weapons worth using more in arena. DC weapons IMO are great for PvE content, but in the context of arena where your enemies are unpredictable save for armors and dragons, it becomes unreliable.

Regarding archers, most of them have horrible to meh offensive spreads. You can run double poison strike, but the damage is fixed to 20 + whatever Rebecca/Niles deals as damage. Counterattacks are scary, but the main problem for archers has always been dealing significant damage and finishing off the enemy in one battle. It's one of the reasons (the other being counterattacks from dragons) why so many of them are ranked low on the Gamepedia tierlist and the ones with decent offensive spreads or benefit from their mobility class pros are ranked higher. The tierlist operates on no budget so a huge majority is still regarded as meh despite having access to plentiful resources

EDIT: Forgot to mention that archers target defense which is pretty high in arena as res is usually low due to being preferred as a bane

Edited August 19, 2018 by silveraura25

[XRay]

3 hours ago, silveraura25 said:

 at that range then yes they'd be dominant. Then again, you'd only be changing dancers, not have 3 heavily merged dancers and Reinhardt... Don't get any funny ideas and make someone's life a living hell?

Having a variety of Dancers/Singers helps a lot in team building. Firesweep archer, mage, and a Dancer/Singer that is a weaker color to the mage is the best Player Phase team composition that can handle any team and do it efficiently.

3 hours ago, silveraura25 said:

Apologies, when you said he has a DC weapon I thought that was your only argument for him. There is definitely great utility in having a DC weapon, but there are other weapons worth using more in arena. DC weapons IMO are great for PvE content, but in the context of arena where your enemies are unpredictable save for armors and dragons, it becomes unreliable.

I do not see how having Distant Counter Weapons makes a unit unreliable. It allows you to deal with ranged and melee enemies, and unless you are at the very top or something, ranged armor units are pretty common as well.

3 hours ago, silveraura25 said:

Regarding archers, most of them have horrible to meh offensive spreads. You can run double poison strike, but the damage is fixed to 20 + whatever Rebecca/Niles deals as damage. Counterattacks are scary, but the main problem for archers has always been dealing significant damage and finishing off the enemy in one battle. It's one of the reasons (the other being counterattacks from dragons) why so many of them are ranked low on the Gamepedia tierlist and the ones with decent offensive spreads or benefit from their mobility class pros are ranked higher. The tierlist operates on no budget so a huge majority is still regarded as meh despite having access to plentiful resources

You do not need an amazing offensive spread to make Firesweep Bow usable. Klein, Leon, and Jeorge all have usable offensive stats. Even Faye herself is usable once you reach a score range where ponies stop appearing.

At lower score ranges where bulk is lower and Distant Counter is less common, archers have no problem running Brave Bow and dealing damage. In higher score ranges, enemies have much lower movement, much higher bulk, and a lot more Distant Counter; that makes Brave Bow obsolete while Firesweep Bow continues to be useful.

For Player Phase teams, counterattacks are the only reason archers and healers are necessary in higher score ranges while mages are not. There is no fool proof way to make Player Phase team win every single match with only mages, while it is possible to win every single match with only Firesweep archers/healers.

3 hours ago, silveraura25 said:

EDIT: Forgot to mention that archers target defense which is pretty high in arena as res is usually low due to being preferred as a bane

High Def does not matter. Brave archers can nuke most down in one round of combat if the enemy is not running Distant Counter. It is no different from Blade mages having little difficulty steamrolling enemy mage tanks despite their higher Res.

Firesweep archers can afford to take their time and can finish most off in two rounds of combat with Dancer/Singer support. The enemies' stats honestly do not matter if they cannot counterattack. In higher score ranged without ponies, everyone is a sitting duck.

Edited August 19, 2018 by XRay

[xchan]

So you are basically demoting 53 units from the 5* pool. That would mean that the 3-4* would have around 160 units. If right now pulling a specific unit is less than 1% (which means less than a 5* focus unit in a 3 unit banner), with the changes the it would go down to 0.625%, less than pulling a specific 5* in a Legendary banner.

Be prepeared to +10 Gunnthrá before you see enough Libra to make it +10. Those who have their core units at +7-8 better pray to the RNGesus or hope for 5* pitty breakers of their liking.

[Hero_Lucina]

Guys, I demoted units like Ike because we have units with frickin DC in the lower ranges, Faye's job can be done by Gordin, Katarina doesn't have that skill to her anymore, MIST SHOULDN'T BE EXCLUSIVE JUST BECAUSE SHE'S RELATED TO IKE. SAME WITH OLWEN

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Hero_Lucina said:

Faye's job can be done by Gordin,

Gordin can't feed Lyn Firesweep Bow+.

[Tybrosion]

9 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Gordin can't feed Lyn Firesweep Bow+.

He technically can if he ate a Faye for her bow. I have no clue why anyone would give Gordin Firesweep to begin with only to then sack him to give it to Lyn, but it is something that can be done.

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

He technically can if he ate a Faye for her bow. I have no clue why anyone would give Gordin Firesweep to begin with only to then sack him to give it to Lyn, but it is something that can be done.

Yes, of course. But Gordin can't do that without having a Faye first.

[XRay]

4 hours ago, Hero_Lucina said:

Guys, I demoted units like Ike because we have units with frickin DC in the lower ranges, Faye's job can be done by Gordin, Katarina doesn't have that skill to her anymore, MIST SHOULDN'T BE EXCLUSIVE JUST BECAUSE SHE'S RELATED TO IKE. SAME WITH OLWEN

The only Distant Counter units in the 3*-4* summoning pool are Nowi and A!Tiki, and both are launch units. Every other Distant Counter and Close Counter unit was given as rewards or gifts in limited quantities, and if players need more copies for fodder or merges, players will need to either get lucky or spend additional money.

Gordin cannot tank mages very well, and Firesweep Bow is broken.