Rank the Ultimate roster by (canonical) strength

[Etrurian emperor]

Palutena might not be so powerful despite being a god. Most of her powers seem support focused and she lets Pit do all the work. The Kid Icarus gods  seem to be pretty minor gods. Aside from Hades and maybe Poseidon most seem more like normal fighters with special powers rather than all powerful deities. 

[Jedi]

Some people seem to be forgetting Sonic is quite powerful in Super Sonic form and has defeated several deities as well.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

On 8/17/2018 at 1:14 PM, Florete said:

Just going to point out that any list without Bayonetta at or at least near the top is flawed. She's a literal cheater in this sense; killing divine beings is her thing, not even something she just happened to do once like Ike. Remember when she called Palutena "an endangered species"? Yeah, she was serious.

Yup, even Palutena fears the Umbran Witches. Honestly, Literal Goddess is a hard tier to place because we've never seen Rosa or Palutena fight uninhibited. We just know they are beings of incredible and varied powers. Rosalina can create a whole new universe, Palutena has fourth wall breaking knowledge of other video games (as does Pit to a lesser extent) which gives her an edge in exploiting weaknesses. But depending on how you look at it, their tier could be anywhere in the upper half rather than strictly behind kirby.

6 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Some people seem to be forgetting Sonic is quite powerful in Super Sonic form and has defeated several deities as well.

Sonic is interesting. He hadn't been depicted with real super speed in-game until the current Boost era of 3D Sonic games. But he's also lost canonically to almost every opponent he's ever faced. Up to and including Knuckles, Gamma, and Team Amy. Super Sonic is definitely a very powerful form, but it runs on rings, giving you the option of outlasting him if you can't overpower him. Plus we've seen this mode get taken from Sonic by Eggman's machines and by just being surprised by Knuckles. Dude's pretty weak, and his most threatening means of attack are the spin dash and the homing attack which is a repetitive strategy that can fail against the right types of armor. Namely anything adorned with spikes. 

Not to sound like a Sega Executive but Sonic should try using a gun.

[Jingle Jangle]

12 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Some people seem to be forgetting Sonic is quite powerful in Super Sonic form and has defeated several deities as well.

While that is true Sonic has fought some world ending monsters, typically he had assistance from other characters.

[Jedi]

9 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

While that is true Sonic has fought some world ending monsters, typically he had assistance from other characters.

He didn’t have any for Perfect Chaos who was literally called a god in game.

and then in Generations he did it again without even needing Super Sonic.

Dark Gaia didn’t need much help either once he got all the chaos emeralds back.

[Jingle Jangle]

11 minutes ago, Jedi said:

He didn’t have any for Perfect Chaos who was literally called a god in game.

and then in Generations he did it again without even needing Super Sonic.

Dark Gaia didn’t need much help either once he got all the chaos emeralds back.

Okay, Sonic did defeat Perfect Chaos without any help. But for Dark Gaia, Sonic did have some assistance from Chip with the temple mech.

[Jedi]

1 hour ago, Jingle Jangle said:

Okay, Sonic did defeat Perfect Chaos without any help. But for Dark Gaia, Sonic did have some assistance from Chip with the temple mech.

I did mention a little help, but Chip in the grand scheme of things didn't accomplish much. 

[Fire Emblem Fan]

This would be my arrangement, although there's a few I'm not quite 100% sure about.

[Florete]

My rule was that they're judged in their natural state. No temporary super powers. Do note that I'm not very familiar with characters from the following franchises: Kirby, Earthbound, Mega Man, Metal Gear, Final Fantasy, Castlevania.

[Slumber]

37 minutes ago, Florete said:

My rule was that they're judged in their natural state. No temporary super powers. Do note that I'm not very familiar with characters from the following franchises: Kirby, Earthbound, Mega Man, Metal Gear, Final Fantasy, Castlevania.

Sheik(While not explicitly stated, it's pretty likely that she's been trained by Impa for those 7 years, giving her abilities to get around Ganon-fucked Hyrule and aid Link), ZS Samus(Chozo and military trained, highly athletic bounty hunter even without her Varia Suit) and Captain Falcon(Also a bounty hunter) should be at the very least in the "trained for combat" tier.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Slumber

[Florete]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

Sheik(While not explicitly stated, it's pretty likely that she's been trained by Impa for those 7 years, giving her abilities to get around Ganon-fucked Hyrule and aid Link), ZS Samus(Chozo and military trained and highly athletic bounty hunter) and Captain Falcon(Also a bounty hunter) should be at the very least in the "trained for combat" tier.

Sheik is literally just Zelda, so I decided they should be in the same tier. She's shown to be able to switch back and forth at will and doesn't seem to be any more or less powerful either way. Sheik doesn't actually show any real combat abilities in canon Zelda, which is only OoT.

Zero Suit Samus...I suppose is kind of hard to compare to the others. She's supposed to be pretty much powerless without her suit, but I could see her going up.

Captain Falcon, I suppose I should have added F-Zero to the list of series I'm not familiar with, but does he actually display any "bounty hunter" abilities in the games? Isn't it just about racing?

And now that I'm looking again, I think I overrated Sonic.

[Slumber]

51 minutes ago, Florete said:

Sheik is literally just Zelda, so I decided they should be in the same tier. She's shown to be able to switch back and forth at will and doesn't seem to be any more or less powerful either way. Sheik doesn't actually show any real combat abilities in canon Zelda, which is only OoT.

Zero Suit Samus...I suppose is kind of hard to compare to the others. She's supposed to be pretty much powerless without her suit, but I could see her going up.

Captain Falcon, I suppose I should have added F-Zero to the list of series I'm not familiar with, but does he actually display any "bounty hunter" abilities in the games? Isn't it just about racing?

And now that I'm looking again, I think I overrated Sonic.

Well, she's specifically OoT Zelda. All we saw of her as an adult outside of her Sheik abilities is her getting captured by Ganon, who is well above even Link on his own. Zelda Zelda in Smash can be anyone from A Link Between Worlds Zelda(Current) and Twilight Princess Zelda(Brawl/4), who, yeah. They don't poses any combat abilities outside of potentially some magic.

It got weird in Brawl when it was TP Zelda turning into Sheik, but I'd argue that since Sheik is a OoT only thing, Sheik is OoT Zelda, who is pretty likely to have gotten actual serious combat training from Impa. Compare Sheik to everyone else in Future Hyrule. Almost everyone else is scared shitless of just going outside. Zelda as Sheik doesn't mind going to the most dangerous areas, though she leaves a lot of the heavy lifting to Link. We do see her go up against Bongo Bongo, and she gets handled pretty badly, but it also did the same to Link.

Yeah, Samus is supposed to be powerless without the Varia, but I think that's supposed to be relative to her with the Varia, which is very powerful. Losing her suit doesn't remove her Chozo DNA and military training, however, which would easily make her combat trained.

Nope, no actual bounty hunter-ing in the games, but it's what he does for an actual living. There is this, though:

Spoiler

 

However, this isn't the Douglas Falcon who we all know as Captain Falcon. But it shows the Falcon Punch is a force to be reckoned with.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Slumber

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

Sheik(While not explicitly stated, it's pretty likely that she's been trained by Impa for those 7 years, giving her abilities to get around Ganon-fucked Hyrule and aid Link), ZS Samus(Chozo and military trained, highly athletic bounty hunter even without her Varia Suit) and Captain Falcon(Also a bounty hunter) should be at the very least in the "trained for combat" tier.

All we ever see Sheik do though is get their ass kicked by Bongo Bongo. Not all that impressive as far as resume's go. And when she turns back to Zelda, she's completely helpless at dealing with a pair of Stalfos. So either Zelda wasn't able to take to physical combat or Impa just taught her the best way to run away (which she demonstrably is good at).

[Slumber]

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

All we ever see Sheik do though is get their ass kicked by Bongo Bongo. Not all that impressive as far as resume's go. And when she turns back to Zelda, she's completely helpless at dealing with a pair of Stalfos. So either Zelda wasn't able to take to physical combat or Impa just taught her the best way to run away (which she demonstrably is good at).

To be fair, Link also got his ass kicked by Bongo Bongo. True enough on the Stalfos, but multiple Stalfos/Lizalfos are also generally treated as a "trial" for Link in at least two dungeons as well. He can do it, but contextually it's considered a challenge. 

Basically what we see out of Sheik/Zelda is that she's not as strong as Link or Ganondorf, which is to be expected. But she manages on her own when she's not presented with things that would be a challenge for Link. 

Aside from I think Nabooru(Who goes toe to toe with adult Link) and Link, Sheik is the only person in Future Hyrule shown to be capable of traversing it. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Slumber

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, Slumber said:

To be fair, Link also got his ass kicked by Bongo Bongo. True enough on the Stalfos, but multiple Stalfos/Lizalfos are also generally treated as a "trial" for Link in at least two dungeons as well. He can do it, but contextually it's considered a challenge. 

Basically what we see out of Sheik/Zelda is that she's not as strong as Link or Ganondorf, which is to be expected. But she manages on her own when she's not presented with things that would be a challenge for Link. 

Aside from I think Nabooru(Who goes toe to toe with adult Link) and Link, Sheik is the only person in Future Hyrule shown to be capable of traversing it. 

Traversing it doesn't mean combat skills though. We see Sheik attack things literally zero times in Ocarina of Time (Zelda we see attack Ganon once to stun him for the final blow, an attack I'd like them to give Zelda as a rip off of Thoron if Custom Specials ever come back). What we do see Sheik do is very effectively run away from Link several times. So given that in a dangerous situation one's options are fight or flight, and we only ever see Sheik escape, then I think we can conclude canonically OOT!Zelda isn't much of a fighter even though she has a lot of magical power. Judging by her gasps whenever Link takes any damage in her presence, she just doesn't have the mentality for fighting

And well, moot point because it's a joke, but the Runningman easily crosses Hyrule post time skip. On what is not seen as a joke, Malon and Talon manage to get back to Lon Lon Ranch after Ingo is beaten by Link without the need for an escort mission. Rather hilariously, Hyrule field is actually much safer in adult era due to the absence of Stalchilds and Peahats. I'm not sure what they were going for with that, it's obviously unsupported by the narrative.

[Slumber]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Traversing it doesn't mean combat skills though. We see Sheik attack things literally zero times in Ocarina of Time (Zelda we see attack Ganon once to stun him for the final blow, an attack I'd like them to give Zelda as a rip off of Thoron if Custom Specials ever come back). What we do see Sheik do is very effectively run away from Link several times. So given that in a dangerous situation one's options are fight or flight, and we only ever see Sheik escape, then I think we can conclude canonically OOT!Zelda isn't much of a fighter even though she has a lot of magical power. Judging by her gasps whenever Link takes any damage in her presence, she just doesn't have the mentality for fighting

And well, moot point because it's a joke, but the Runningman easily crosses Hyrule post time skip. On what is not seen as a joke, Malon and Talon manage to get back to Lon Lon Ranch after Ingo is beaten by Link without the need for an escort mission. Rather hilariously, Hyrule field is actually much safer in adult era due to the absence of Stalchilds and Peahats. I'm not sure what they were going for with that, it's obviously unsupported by the narrative.

Fair. 

ZS Samus and Falcon are definitely fighters, though. 

[Jave]

Here's mine. PLEASE don't ask me about stuff in the bottom four tiers, since I'm not that familiar with some series and I couldn't be bothered to rank them more specifically. It's more fun to discuss the top stuff, anyway.

[Armagon]

9 hours ago, Jave said:

Here's mine. PLEASE don't ask me about stuff in the bottom four tiers, since I'm not that familiar with some series and I couldn't be bothered to rank them more specifically. It's more fun to discuss the top stuff, anyway.

I'm genuinely curious to know your know reasoning as to why Mario is so high.

______________________________________________________________________________

Gotta say, after seeing a few of these tiers, i'm surprised that i'm the only one that ranked the Pits high enough to be in the top three tiers. Both Pit and Dark Pit have slayed Gods (maybe not permanently but still defeated them), with Pit beating one of the Big Three of Greek mythology.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Armagon

[DisobeyedCargo]

8 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I'm genuinely curious to know your know reasoning as to why Mario is so high.

______________________________________________________________________________

Gotta say, after seeing a few of these tiers, i'm surprised that i'm the only one that ranked the Pits high enough to be in the top three tiers. Both Pit and Dark Pit have slayed Gods (maybe not permanently but still defeated them), with Pit beating one of the Big Three of Greek mythology.

Are we assuming every fighter has every tool avalible and canon to them in their campaigns? Because If we include that, Pit gets the great sacred treasure, Kirby the... hypernova fruit I think it’s called, Shulk would have a certain endgame sword, etc...?

 

these things could dramatically change the favor of a match.

[Armagon]

3 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Are we assuming every fighter has every tool avalible and canon to them in their campaigns?

Well, the rules are mostly up to you but i know for me, i took into account everything (unless it was a character i wasn't really familiar with). 

[Jave]

46 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I'm genuinely curious to know your know reasoning as to why Mario is so  high

One year ago, I would have placed Mario on tier 4, probably alongside Ness and Sonic. 

But after Odyssey Mario is on a whole new  level of power. Mario with Cappy is pretty much Kirby except he can die. 

[Jingle Jangle]

41 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Are we assuming every fighter has every tool avalible and canon to them in their campaigns? Because If we include that, Pit gets the great sacred treasure, Kirby the... hypernova fruit I think it’s called, Shulk would have a certain endgame sword, etc...?

 

these things could dramatically change the favor of a match.

The rules for crossover powerlevels for me generally are:

• Fighting at full strength, with their own powers, movesets , abilities
• Full access to their own equipment.
• no outside assistance. Summoning is technically depending who (Bayonetta )
• referencing previous crossovers for a crossover battle is not allowed.
• Usually use cannon events since noncannon material can be sketchy at times. (Snake going Matrix flips in the Twin Snakes port of MGS1 never happened)

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Are we assuming every fighter has every tool avalible and canon to them in their campaigns? Because If we include that, Pit gets the great sacred treasure, Kirby the... hypernova fruit I think it’s called, Shulk would have a certain endgame sword, etc...?

 

these things could dramatically change the favor of a match.

Shulk's endgame weapon is a manifestation of his own identity and will, so he sort of has to have it. Otherwise we could claim he's canonically pretty unable to even hurt humans as that's the way he is at the start of the game. Likewise someone like Samus starts off with very limited equipment and only become a god of destruction by the end game. Of course stuff like the Great Sacred Treasure do raise some other questions like if vehicles count as equipment. Should Fox be considered powerful because he could carpet bomb Ganondorf from space using an Arwing with no threat to himself? I'd say no, so the likes of Pit could have the Three Sacred Treasures, but not the Great Sacred Treasure.

8 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

The rules for crossover powerlevels for me generally are:

• Fighting at full strength, with their own powers, movesets , abilities
• Full access to their own equipment.
• no outside assistance. Summoning is technically depending who (Bayonetta )
• referencing previous crossovers for a crossover battle is not allowed.
• Usually use cannon events since noncannon material can be sketchy at times. (Snake going Matrix flips in the Twin Snakes port of MGS1 never happened)

MGS4 had flashbacks to the Twin Snakes (as well as the original game, and retained the voice cast and accents of the Twin Snakes), so yeah, it's all canon, while simultaneously the original game is still canon too, that's the way the sequel chose to interpret things. As far as I know the Cutscenes for the Twin Snakes actually were made by Konami too, so there's no real reason not to consider them canon.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Jotari

[Jingle Jangle]

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

MGS4 had flashbacks to the Twin Snakes (as well as the original game, and retained the voice cast and accents of the Twin Snakes), so yeah, it's all canon, while simultaneously the original game is still canon too, that's the way the sequel chose to interpret things. As far as I know the Cutscenes for the Twin Snakes actually were made by Konami too, so there's no real reason not to consider them canon.

Oh yeah, there were voice clips from the Twin Snakes in MGS4, so it sort of happened as a complimentary piece. Not a good example on my part. In a case of cannon I would say for characters that have an anime or cartoon, that version should not be used since it may not the same person.

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, Jave said:

But after Odyssey Mario is on a whole new  level of power. Mario with Cappy is pretty much Kirby except he can die. 

Not quite. It's been shown that sometimes, Mario can't Capture enemies unless he beats them. And because Cappy is technically a projectile, those with anti-projectile abilities come out on top+Cappy isn't fast and rather easy to avoid. Compared to the black hole that is Kirby's mouth where once you get caught in the vortex, it's pretty much hard to escape.

53 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

The rules for crossover powerlevels for me generally are:

• Fighting at full strength, with their own powers, movesets , abilities
• Full access to their own equipment.
• no outside assistance. Summoning is technically depending who (Bayonetta )
• referencing previous crossovers for a crossover battle is not allowed.
• Usually use cannon events since noncannon material can be sketchy at times. (Snake going Matrix flips in the Twin Snakes port of MGS1 never happened)

It's also important to determine what is and isn't just a gameplay mechanics (if the characters in question originate from a video game). Like, Mega Man instantly dying because he touched a spike obviously doesn't count.

53 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Of course stuff like the Great Sacred Treasure do raise some other questions like if vehicles count as equipment. Should Fox be considered powerful because he could carpet bomb Ganondorf from space using an Arwing with no threat to himself? I'd say no, so the likes of Pit could have the Three Sacred Treasures, but not the Great Sacred Treasure.

I'd say they do, as it's part of their arsenal. If you take it out, then the character isn't at full strength anymore because he's missing something.

That said, it tends to get more iffy when large ships are taken into account (for example: Halberd). In cases like that, those large ships are just considered areas. So i'd say any vehicle, from a bike to a mech, is considered fair game.