Weapons/Game mechanics speculation thread

[TheBraveGallade]

So, while we are starving for more information about this game, let us speculate/ on what this games mechanics are going to be.

What we know:

-there will be some sort of formation function

-there will be some sort of combat arts

-there will be some sort of magic skills, which might be limited to certain charecters

What is heavily implied

-some sort of weapon weight returning (AS shows up in combat forecast)

-support system

-ways to improve weapon skills

-bows counter at 1 range

-terrain bonus' back to series standerd levels

-dungeon crawling

-a skill system of some sort

What has been absent so far, but could still be in

-weapon triangle

Edited August 27, 2018 by TheBraveGallade

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

I guess I'll tune in here:

(Based on official fact sheet and trailer)

What we know:

-There will be a hub area for our character to explore similar to Fates's My Castle(a thing I notice its in the actual world oppose to a different dimension looking closely at the map and area shown make what you will with that).

-There will be a way to interact with other characters and build relationships (meaning ways to build up support points to raise support levels by various means more further proof in trailer with an idle Dimitri seen just like Fates having idle characters around the base).

-There will be a building to improve a weapon skill (wherever its Combat Arts or Weapon levels has yet to be seen)

-Although not confirmed yet but dungeons most likely will return given the area Claude was fighting that Iron Maiden looking enemy which *screams* dungeon to me.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Regal Edelgard Axe Master

[FRZNHeir]

It also seems like weapon durability might return, which is a good thing imo. I 

[RexBolt]

- Bows counter a 1-range (and maybe shoot too?) like in Echoes.

- If the Vantage and Wrath skill symbols mean anything we may be going back to Tellius skill system.

[Hawkwing]

The weapon triangle actually does appear to exist.

At the 0:41 mark in the trailer, Edelgard uses an axe against a sword user. The former has a 67% chance to hit, while the latter has a 96% chance to hit.

In the next fight, Dimitri attacks a sword user with a lance. Dimitri has a 100% hit rate, while his foe has a 59% chance to hit.

So it is present, but there doesn't appear to be indication that tells the player that swords beat axes and the like. The arrows that point up and down next to the weapon type are oddly missing. Whether this is because they haven't been implemented yet, or IS believes that it's easy enough to remember the weapon triangle that they no longer need to add a constant visual reminder, remains to be seen.

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

Found another thing:

-Terrain bonuses looks to be as we know them pre-Echoes as I saw forest terrain gives +10 avoid(thank Naga).

[TheBraveGallade]

edited main post

in which form do you guys think will weapon weight be back? while I liked Tellius's system, I just feel like it was kinda designed to screw over mages as most phisical units had no problem even with the heaviest weapons past mid game while mages tend to be weighed down forever. I'd say high ranked tomes(rex-tomes) should be lighter and high ranked phisical(silver, brave) should be heavier.

[Hawkwing]

11 hours ago, TheBraveGallade said:

in which form do you guys think will weapon weight be back?

Considering the screen that shows Edelgard selecting the steel axe showed AS (which was at zero. Her opponent doubles her, by the way), probably.

I doubt con will return, considering there was no indication of it being there, and it has a mixed reception anyway.

I also don't think they're doing Gaiden/Echoes "double attack if faster than opponent" system. If they did, why have AS? Why not simply list it as "speed"? That, and a reason said system worked in the first place was due to the game being designed with it in mind, along with it's other quirks.

My guess is that it will be similar to original Shadow Dragon and Mystery of the Emblem (and maybe the remakes, except I haven't played those, so I can't say for certain) where Attack Speed was a simple AS=Speed-Weight, and if it was at or higher than a certain number, the unit would double.

I'm fine with the system, even if it does have a few flaws. Namely how it's only interesting with characters with middling speed, as you have to decide whether to use a stronger but heavier weapon to do more damage in a single blow, or a weaker but faster one to double. For slow characters like knights, well, they aren't doubling anytime soon, so you may as well just give them the heavy and powerful stuff and be done with it. And the faster ones tend to double everything anyhow, so again, they often get away with using heavier but more powerful weapons because they're just that fast. Hopefully Three houses will rectify these problems if they decide to use this system.

[link16hit]

FYI in mystery of the emblem you can double when you have 3 AS more than the enemy, in GBA it's 4 and in 3DS it's five =S

mm if bow user can counter at close range then np! it's one of the reason archer in Gaiden and SoV were good.

I wish we had more information..probably in November?

[Cysx]

On 26/08/2018 at 9:48 PM, Hawkwing said:

The weapon triangle actually does appear to exist.

At the 0:41 mark in the trailer, Edelgard uses an axe against a sword user. The former has a 67% chance to hit, while the latter has a 96% chance to hit.

In the next fight, Dimitri attacks a sword user with a lance. Dimitri has a 100% hit rate, while his foe has a 59% chance to hit.

So it is present, but there doesn't appear to be indication that tells the player that swords beat axes and the like. The arrows that point up and down next to the weapon type are oddly missing. Whether this is because they haven't been implemented yet, or IS believes that it's easy enough to remember the weapon triangle that they no longer need to add a constant visual reminder, remains to be seen.

But Edelgard had only 71% displayed hit on her stat screen. And Mercedes doubles her, implying she has some amount of AS, so there's no way that 4 points difference is due to the weapon triangle. If anything, what this tells us is that skill will probably factor in very little when it comes to hit, and luck may not at all, while on the other side well, the same goes for avoid.

And yes, that makes the hit rates in Dimitri's fight all the more surprising. Maybe it's a formation thing? A skill? Perhaps the weapon triangle is now exclusively a bonus and only activates for the unit that initiated when applicable(so exhibit 1, Edelgard initiated, she isn't at an advantage, nothing happens, exhibit 2, Dimitri initiated and is at an advantage, he gets a bonus to hit and avoid)?

About squad size, main characters/leaders seem to have bigger ones. Are those permanent, what does that mean, I don't know, but:

https://imgur.com/a/fuAZ2B4

- Byleth team pretty clearly has 15 people

- Same for Edelgard

- Your third unit on the right on the other hand clearly has 10

- On the enemy side, the older magician guy has 15, which implies he's their leader/teacher(would make sense, the other three are very young in comparison)

- The other two should have one soldier behind them(everyone else visibly does), making their total 10

- The final one's squad was too small on this screenshot, but you can see it better later on and he also has 10.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Cysx

[Hawkwing]

9 hours ago, Cysx said:

But Edelgard had only 71% displayed hit on her stat screen. And Mercedes doubles her, implying she has some amount of AS, so there's no way that 4 points difference is due to the weapon triangle. If anything, what this tells us is that skill will probably factor in very little when it comes to hit, and luck may not at all, while on the other side well, the same goes for avoid.

Well, all the games show what the chance to hit is. It's when a unit actually fights someone that avoidance comes into play, and that 131% to becomes becomes a 95%, for example.

Although you do bring up some good points. 71% chance to hit is odd, as I remember even the more inaccurate enemies in certain games hat a chance to hit in the 90's (reminder that this is their chance to hit unaffected by opposing avoidance and weapon triangle advantage/disadvantage), meaning that either Edelgard is inaccurate, or the game's hit rates with be a bit odd.

Also, I looked real quick at the weapon triangle effects across the various games. Specifically hit rates. They tend to increase or decrease hit by 5, 10, or 15. And factors such as weapon rank can increase hit chance depending on the weapon. Loosing 4 hit seems to be an odd number for weapon triangle disadvantage, unless other factors we don't know about are at play.

9 hours ago, Cysx said:

And yes, that makes the hit rates in Dimitri's fight all the more surprising. Maybe it's a formation thing? A skill? Perhaps the weapon triangle is now exclusively a bonus and only activates for the unit that initiated when applicable(so exhibit 1, Edelgard initiated, she isn't at an advantage, nothing happens, exhibit 2, Dimitri initiated and is at an advantage, he gets a bonus to hit and avoid)?

There are skills that affect hit rate in previous games, and we haven't seen how the work in action yet, so that wouldn't be surprising. And undoubtedly, some of the formations would increase (or decrease, if it's a sacrifice for a different advantage) hit rate.

The initiation thing is interesting, as it would discourage turtling and put more emphasis on the player phase. We haven't seen enough to make that conclusion, though.

Also, in a later fight, Byleth attacks an archer. The hit rates are 93 and 86, respectively. Probably an indication that either the weapon triangle advantages/disadvantages won't be as big this time around, or they won't be using Fates triangle.

9 hours ago, Cysx said:

About squad size, main characters/leaders seem to have bigger ones. Are those permanent, what does that mean, I don't know, but:

https://imgur.com/a/fuAZ2B4

- Byleth team pretty clearly has 15 people

- Same for Edelgard

- Your third unit on the right on the other hand clearly has 10

- On the enemy side, the older magician guy has 15, which implies he's their leader/teacher(would make sense, the other three are very young in comparison)

- The other two should have one soldier behind them(everyone else visibly does), making their total 10

- The final one's squad was too small on this screenshot, but you can see it better later on and he also has 10.

That does seem interesting. Leaders having more people makes sense, partially because of their role  in the story, but also because if they die, it could mean game over, so having a larger squad is a necessary balance to increase their survivability. And enemy leaders/bosses having larger squads is a way of identifying who you need to take out, as well as making them a greater challenge to defeat.

This does raise questions, though. Will promotion or class affect squad size? If you promote an archer into a sniper, for example, would they go from a squad of 10 to a squad of 15? Would powerful classes like, say, Dread fighters, have less squad mates to make up for their overall strength? Would knights have less units, but more formations (like a shield wall, something like the Leonine pose (Avoid -30, Crt +50; attack goes last) from Echoes, or a formation that blocks archer range) to make up for this? We don't know at this point, but it's interesting to think about.

 

Something else I noticed: At 1:01, right before Byleth attacks an archer there's something above the weapon selection. It says none, but only moments before, it seemed like both Edelgard and Byleth were selected and then aimed at a single enemy. The ZL and ZR buttons are right next to it, so maybe something like pair up will return, but with more control over whether an ally will attack, defend, give greater stat boosts, etc.

[Cysx]

21 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

Although you do bring up some good points. 71% chance to hit is odd, as I remember even the more inaccurate enemies in certain games hat a chance to hit in the 90's (reminder that this is their chance to hit unaffected by opposing avoidance and weapon triangle advantage/disadvantage), meaning that either Edelgard is inaccurate, or the game's hit rates with be a bit odd.

Honestly this felt like earlygame footage, so I doubt the problem comes primarily from Edelgard. I'd suspect the steel axe is at fault here(60 to 65 accuracy wouldn't be especially low for that weapon type), and the accuracy formula requires high amounts of accuracy to compensate for that. Though that would be a surprising design choice.

21 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

The initiation thing is interesting, as it would discourage turtling and put more emphasis on the player phase.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Being too enemy phase focused has been a balance problem of the series for pretty much its entire existence. Though there's also the possibility of a skill that negates wtd, and as you said, Byleth vs Hilda could have no trace of the triangle because bows are outside of it once more. You're completely right, at this point we can only speculate. We don't even know if any of this is final either.

I agree that squads and formations have potential, though I wonder if they'll really affect that much since they didn't seem to influence much of anything in combat or statistically. The only concrete thing we see them do seems to be activation based, with Dimitri's charge and Claude's arrow barrage(which I do believe is the same since both include a closeup, then the leader giving a signal and their squad doing the rest).

21 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

Something else I noticed: At 1:01, right before Byleth attacks an archer there's something above the weapon selection. It says none, but only moments before, it seemed like both Edelgard and Byleth were selected and then aimed at a single enemy. The ZL and ZR buttons are right next to it, so maybe something like pair up will return, but with more control over whether an ally will attack, defend, give greater stat boosts, etc.

I faintly recall someone bringing that up in the past and having a pretty good theory as to what that could be... but I can't remember what it was. And outside of that, my guess would be the same as yours, except with a return of Fates' dual strike specifically and no pair up.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Cysx

[vanguard333]

The title says weapon speculation thread, so here's some speculation I have about a specific weapon:

We know from the trailer that there is a unique weapon: a whip-sword with a crossguard shaped like dragon wings, and the back edge lined with bits that look like the back of a spine; making me think that this whip-sword is forged from either a dragon spine or a dragon tail, rather than the usual dragon fang. I wonder why that is. Perhaps it wasn't granted to humanity, but rather was made from the bones that the person could actually obtain?

One can also see it is clearly magic; releasing a wave of what looks to be some kind of red lightning. I don't think that that's a kind of magic we've seen dragons use before (though correct me if I'm wrong), and it's certainly not divine dragon magic. This, combined with it looking like it's forged from a spine or tail, suggests that this sword has much darker origins than any other FE sword forged from dragon bone. 

But then we see the obviously-divine-dragon woman holding the sword close to her as if in memory of someone. Perhaps the sword's origins are also quite sad/tragic?

The fact that every other sword in the trailer looks fairly normal suggests that this will be the only whip-sword in the game. I honestly hope that is the case, since it is a very impractical design. I like this particular one because it's magic and looks like it's made by a spine, but I've never really been a fan of whip-swords since they look like so much can go wrong. 

But this weapon does raise one thing: 1-2 range swords. The Tellius games had 1-2 range swords that fire sword beams, while Awakening and Fates had it that 1-2 range swords are thrown straight forward like a javelin (which is actually realistic). I wonder if this sword means that sword beams are back? If so, how will this factor into the formations?

Speaking of which, this makes me wonder about 1-2 range weapons and formations. If the unit has a javelin or a hand axe, does that mean the surrounding soldiers have javelins or hand axes? 

[TheBraveGallade]

On 9/1/2018 at 1:12 PM, vanguard333 said:

The title says weapon speculation thread, so here's some speculation I have about a specific weapon:

We know from the trailer that there is a unique weapon: a whip-sword with a crossguard shaped like dragon wings, and the back edge lined with bits that look like the back of a spine; making me think that this whip-sword is forged from either a dragon spine or a dragon tail, rather than the usual dragon fang. I wonder why that is. Perhaps it wasn't granted to humanity, but rather was made from the bones that the person could actually obtain?

One can also see it is clearly magic; releasing a wave of what looks to be some kind of red lightning. I don't think that that's a kind of magic we've seen dragons use before (though correct me if I'm wrong), and it's certainly not divine dragon magic. This, combined with it looking like it's forged from a spine or tail, suggests that this sword has much darker origins than any other FE sword forged from dragon bone. 

But then we see the obviously-divine-dragon woman holding the sword close to her as if in memory of someone. Perhaps the sword's origins are also quite sad/tragic?

The fact that every other sword in the trailer looks fairly normal suggests that this will be the only whip-sword in the game. I honestly hope that is the case, since it is a very impractical design. I like this particular one because it's magic and looks like it's made by a spine, but I've never really been a fan of whip-swords since they look like so much can go wrong. 

But this weapon does raise one thing: 1-2 range swords. The Tellius games had 1-2 range swords that fire sword beams, while Awakening and Fates had it that 1-2 range swords are thrown straight forward like a javelin (which is actually realistic). I wonder if this sword means that sword beams are back? If so, how will this factor into the formations?

Speaking of which, this makes me wonder about 1-2 range weapons and formations. If the unit has a javelin or a hand axe, does that mean the surrounding soldiers have javelins or hand axes? 

 

To be fair throwing swords always looks rediculous which is why Sonic swords exist.

[vanguard333]

9 hours ago, TheBraveGallade said:

To be fair throwing swords always looks rediculous which is why Sonic swords exist.

What does that have to do with what I said? I only said that throwing swords in FE are thrown the way one would actually throw a sword in real life (it would've been a moment-of-opportunity tactic, for moments such as if a crossbowman on the battlefield is looking at you), and that I wonder if this unique magic whip-sword means that sword beams are back.

[thecrimsonflash]

5 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

What does that have to do with what I said? I only said that throwing swords in FE are thrown the way one would actually throw a sword in real life (it would've been a moment-of-opportunity tactic, for moments such as if a crossbowman on the battlefield is looking at you), and that I wonder if this unique magic whip-sword means that sword beams are back.

I think he was just voicing his (correct) opinion that throwing swords shouldn't have been/should never be a thing again in fire emblem, wind edges and the typical magic swords are just better to watch and make more sense in the context of general use.

[vanguard333]

17 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

I think he was just voicing his (correct) opinion that throwing swords shouldn't have been/should never be a thing again in fire emblem, wind edges and the typical magic swords are just better to watch and make more sense in the context of general use.

Okay; that makes sense. I was confused by the fact that he quoted me and then said, "To be fair"; seemingly as if implying I had made a harsh criticism. 

[GrassEater]

10 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Okay; that makes sense. I was confused by the fact that he quoted me and then said, "To be fair"; seemingly as if implying I had made a harsh criticism. 

Aren't 'throwing swords' daggers anyways? i dont understand why they made them a different weapon type in each game when they would be the perfect sword throwing weapon

[RexBolt]

1 hour ago, GrassEater said:

Aren't 'throwing swords' daggers anyways? i dont understand why they made them a different weapon type in each game when they would be the perfect sword throwing weapon

Actually, you are right. I never noticed how they always try to make swords have 2 range like javelins and handaxes with the most fantastical ways when the daggers just there, waiting. 

[Hawkwing]

On the "throwing swords" thing:

For the record, during an event where a number of people were throwing a hatchet at a target (don't ask), someone brought a machete. I tried the technique used in the video, and it didn't work out so well. Whether or not it was due to my lack of experience with throwing weapons, or the machete was too short to be effectively thrown that way (it also didn't have a guard, making it a harder to hold it in the way shown in the video), or both, I don't know for certain. However, a person attempted the overhead technique... and they struck a bulls-eye. So I wonder if sword length/type changes the effectiveness of certain techniques when throwing a sword.

I do see a 1-2 range sword working without magic if it was similar to how Kenshi fights in the Mortal Kombat series, at the cost of it being limited to one or two characters or a certain class type due to Kenshi's sword being telekinetic, as well as it's ability to casting projections.

 

On a different note, from 0:33 to the point where Edelgard attacks, there appears to be an allied soldier to the left. Given the amount of armor they're wearing, I find it hard to tell if the unit is a soldier or a knight. The fact that they aren't wearing or holding a shield also raises questions. Will the soldier class return, with the ability to promote into knights or a different class similarly to how they worked in Gaiden/Echoes? Or will the knights not be as overloaded with armor design-wise as they were in the past? And will shields have to be equipped this time around? I actually looked through the whole video, and not once was a character, ally or enemy, using a shield, even in the cut-scenes.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Hawkwing

[vanguard333]

3 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

On the "throwing swords" thing:

For the record, during an event where a number of people were throwing a hatchet at a target (don't ask), someone brought a machete. I tried the technique used in the video, and it didn't work out so well. Whether or not it was due to my lack of experience with throwing weapons, or the machete was too short to be effectively thrown that way (it also didn't have a guard, making it a harder to hold it the way shown in the video), or both, I don't know for certain. However, a person attempted the overhead technique... and they struck a bulls-eye. So I wonder if sword length/type changes the effectiveness of certain techniques when throwing a sword

That video's how I first learned that it's a historically accurate technique. Yeah; I can imagine it didn't work for the machete. A machete is one of several sword designs (another being the kopis/falcata) that is designed to be used more like a cleaving tool or an axe than like a sword. 

[Hawkwing]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

That video's how I first learned that it's a historically accurate technique. Yeah; I can imagine it didn't work for the machete. A machete is one of several sword designs (another being the kopis/falcata) that is designed to be used more like a cleaving tool or an axe than like a sword. 

Thought so. I knew it felt odd when attempting to throw the machete as the guy did in the video. Although being fair, I'm not the best at throwing, well, anything really, so part of it was my fault.

With that said, I do wonder if the overhead throw technique is something that depends on the sword/weapon. As I said, a person threw it in an overhead spinning motion, and it worked a lot better than it did in the video. Obviously, it only traveled a very short distance, but it stuck in the target surprisingly well.