Expanding story outside of the game

[XRay]

So, I read an article on World of Warcraft about their new update a few days ago. Basically, there is a controversy about how one of the NPC leaders went sort of crazy and evil in the plot and players were not happy that they were dumbing her down to be a simple villain instead of a more nuanced, complex character like how she was portrayed in the past. Blizzard is defending their portrayal of her and that there is a reason to her actions, and that if players read the books and consumed other media for lore outside the game, players will know that she is not a one dimensional villain. The full update is not out yet, so players are still hopeful that one of their most beloved characters is not being ruined by an incompetent writer and that there is indeed reason for her evil actions.

And that brings us back to Fire Emblem Heroes. Do you think Heroes should expand its story outside of the game, like having an official comic to better explain the story? What about going beyond the game in general, like having toys or OVAs? What are your thoughts on the subject?

Personally, I think it is poor game design and poor story telling if players are required to consume media outside of gameplay to understand the story. I think out of game story telling is fine for side plots and background information, but not for important plot points. It is one thing to have Helbindi turn a new leaf towards the light without much explanation since he seems pretty insignificant in the plot, but having our super bun bun pal turn evil for no in game explanation would piss me off too.

Anyways, I do want Heroes to have more multimedia exposure. It would be nice to have comics (as long as you can still understand the in game story without reading the comics), plushies of Feh, action figures of the Askr trio and other original characters, etc. It would be cool to have an anime too, but I think that is more suited for Shadows of Valentia or Awakening.

[Ice Dragon]

5 minutes ago, XRay said:

like having an official comic to better explain the story?

We already have an official comic that better explains why everyone is so incompetent.

[XRay]

6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

We already have an official comic that better explains why everyone is so incompetent.

I guess that counts, but those comics are more about humor though instead going deeper into the back story or side plots, like showing Laegjarn's, Xander's, or Veronica's perspective or something.

[Kurrin]

The story is already bare-bones as is. It shouldn't have to add to the story from an external source when we barely have any from its source game in the first place. If they did that, they might as well remove the story from Heroes itself, move it to some other media and hand wave some crossover Excuse Plot for the game to keep it going. Meanwhile, I'll just stick to the 4-Koma for the deepest lore until, should it happen, there is a day that its story gains any meat.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Kurrin

[Flying Shogi]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Personally, I think it is poor game design and poor story telling if players are required to consume media outside of gameplay to understand the story. I think out of game story telling is fine for side plots and background information, but not for important plot points.

I fully agree with this line of thought. I just feel that players shouldn't have to consult outside media to understand the main story. That's a sign of poor writing in my opinion. It's the main story for this game. Why should I have to look up external sources to understand this story?

However, that is not to say that I'm opposed to outside content. I like having the comics but they should remain at the bonus content level of importance in relation to the main plot. As for FEH, it'd be a great callback for the older fans who played the earlier games in the series but the main FEH story shouldn't be written in a way that require newer players to play the older games to understand what is going on in the plot.

Edited August 27, 2018 by tobuShogi

[Sage of the Mist]

It depends, if the out of game content is enriching the lore or providing background i would say that is a charming, healthy way to deepen story and reward players. If you are using outside sources to explain major plot arcs and events, then i would say that's an example of poor/lazy storytelling  and world building. AS a company you can't expect everyone of your fans to have disposable income so they can get the full story, doing so is both lazy and dishonest, not to mention clunky and alienating too much of your target audience. Often times when companies do this, the team for the additional side content is not the same as the eam thea made the original game, resulting in continuity errors to misunderstanding of the lore among other things. Overall it's a very circumstantial issue that will more often than not vary case to case.

[Interdimensional Observer]

It is worth saying that video games can't present all forms of story and situations well. Non-game mediums can do peaceful moments better being the main thing, since go too long without battles/interactiveness in a game and things are boring. 

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

It is worth saying that video games can't present all forms of story and situations well. Non-game mediums can do peaceful moments better being the main thing, since go too long without battles/interactiveness in a game and things are boring. 

It's a failure of the game's design if the parts between meaningful user interaction are boring, not a failure of the medium.

To cite the most extreme example I know of, take Key's Planetarian, which, if my memory serves, is a visual novel with zero player choices. For a less extreme case, the JRPG as a genre distinguishes itself from the Western RPG in that the former is narrative-centric whereas the latter is user-agency-centric.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

It is worth saying that video games can't present all forms of story and situations well. Non-game mediums can do peaceful moments better being the main thing, since go too long without battles/interactiveness in a game and things are boring. 

Not necessarily at all. Some games are entirely without action but get by on the interactive nature of their stories. Hell it's an entire genre. I actually wish some games had the courage to go longer without throwing battles at the player if the atmosphere supported it. The Last of Us in particular I wish had more lulled moments where the characters were just exploring, instead every five minutes they needed to throw some contrived action at the player to keep the gameplay present. Now, of course, that's not to say watching six hours of Metal Gear cutscenes is the best way to go. The quiet moments should still be interactive. That's the key to making the most out of their unique selling point that other mediums lack.

[Lemmy]

heroes probably does peaceful moments better in that during the paralouges, the protagonists portay personality quirks, as opposed to the main story where they are focused and professional but dull as a result, to the point where sharenna doesn't even get dialouge anymore. it doesn't help that they are depending on multiple external plot devices as opposed to some collaborative effort or self improvement.

[Interdimensional Observer]

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Not necessarily at all. Some games are entirely without action but get by on the interactive nature of their stories. Hell it's an entire genre.

 

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

To cite the most extreme example I know of, take Key's Planetarian, which, if my memory serves, is a visual novel with zero player choices. For a less extreme case, the JRPG as a genre distinguishes itself from the Western RPG in that the former is narrative-centric whereas the latter is user-agency-centric.

I'm familiar with visual/interactive novels. If you play those, you're expecting limited interactiveness, but a major mainstream title, I'm not so sure. It's like the expression "cut to the chase" it originated in the early days of film, when Westerns were big, the talk scenes between the action moments could get boring, and the action scenes were often chases on horseback.

Although maybe I underestimate mass tolerance/appreciation for noninteractive/action-filled moments. The recent invention of super-easy modes made to cater to story lovers in a way removes interactivity and is indicative of this tolerance.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I want the team that makes live action Fire Emblem Heroes commercials to make the live action Fire Emblem movie.

It would have nothing to do with Heroes but um...yeah I can't think of an on-topic justification for that.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Glennstavos

[Ice Dragon]

27 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'm familiar with visual/interactive novels. If you play those, you're expecting limited interactiveness, but a major mainstream title, I'm not so sure. It's like the expression "cut to the chase" it originated in the early days of film, when Westerns were big, the talk scenes between the action moments could get boring, and the action scenes were often chases on horseback.

Although maybe I underestimate mass tolerance/appreciation for noninteractive/action-filled moments. The recent invention of super-easy modes made to cater to story lovers in a way removes interactivity and is indicative of this tolerance.

You're still completely ignoring the entire genre of JRPG which is defined by its narrative-driven design and can hardly not be called mainstream.

[mampfoid]

I'd like more depth to story and characters. If that would happen outside of the game, I'd read that. An in-game enrichment would be preferable though. 

[Garlyle]

That's like expecting only the fandom from the audience to understand everything instead of general consumers. Think about it like how bad it would be if you can only understand the Star Wars if you are aware of all the spinoffs and comic books too, which would be too much from our side. Or you need to have played all the previous Fire Emblem titles from the same world to understand everything about the characters. Even if the game is based on a video game or reverse, they each need to stand on their own, and they should never expect the audience to be already familiar with everything in their universe.

It's just bad design strategy. Whenever you make a game, movie, book, etc. they always need to stand on their own 2 legs.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Garlyle

[sirmola]

Also, when ever anyone brings up bits of story being in comics. I always think of marval and DC comics, which frequently break up story arcs intentionaly as a method to force you to by multiple issues per month. This can include things like having a special event series, but the introduction of the main villan takes place in that month's superman comic instead of the actual series, or superman does something  that only makes sense if you have read that month's superman comic. THis sort of thing has been going on since the 80s. That being said, such things are generally included in the trade paperback collections (which is one of the reasons that many comic fans only read the trade paperbacks, with the other big one including skipping bad stories).

Obviously, this is an extreme example, but the fact is that only the most hardcore fans read extra material like that (unless it is literaly included in the packaging). Generaly, I feel that the folowing is the optimal rule: The player should never be required to consume media in addition to the main series in order to to make sense of the story (and even then, there are ways to include catch up info in game.) the other hand, additional flavor, or side stories that take place in the same setting, are generally okay.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

 

I'm familiar with visual/interactive novels. If you play those, you're expecting limited interactiveness, but a major mainstream title, I'm not so sure. It's like the expression "cut to the chase" it originated in the early days of film, when Westerns were big, the talk scenes between the action moments could get boring, and the action scenes were often chases on horseback.

Although maybe I underestimate mass tolerance/appreciation for noninteractive/action-filled moments. The recent invention of super-easy modes made to cater to story lovers in a way removes interactivity and is indicative of this tolerance.

Well I think that western example encompasses the idea as whole. Consider forty years ago someone might have said movies can't do quiet scenes as well as novels, because movie goers need to have their attention stimulated (it's not just westerns, things as a whole were a lot more melodramatic back then). But now we know movies absolutely can do quiet moments really well. It's not that games inherently can't do it, it's that its risky to do. Perhaps it'll always be seen that way, or maybe in the future some games will be willing to go further with things like that.

[Interdimensional Observer]

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You're still completely ignoring the entire genre of JRPG which is defined by its narrative-driven design and can hardly not be called mainstream.

I'm not ignoring them, I was playing SMTIV: Apocalypse yesterday. I just considered the real long and dull narrative-heavy moments to be, if lacking in interactivity indeed, spaced out enough for it to be not such an issue. I play the genre first and foremost for gameplay though, and certainly did ignore the games that really layer on the cutscenes. Never have tried FFXIII for instance.

 

6 hours ago, sirmola said:

but the fact is that only the most hardcore fans read extra material like that (unless it is literaly included in the packaging). Generaly, I feel that the folowing is the optimal rule: The player should never be required to consume media in addition to the main series in order to to make sense of the story (and even then, there are ways to include catch up info in game.) the other hand, additional flavor, or side stories that take place in the same setting, are generally okay.

Quite true. Fates had its Hidden Truths DLC, which was a bad move (just unlock it after clearing Revelation once or something). And Shadows of Valentia had a lot of great information in its Valentian Accordion artbook, but very few fans will ever hear much less read that, to the detriment of Nuibaba and Deen at the very least. It also leaves some skepticism as to whether Nuibaba's past actually existed prior to the artbook, or whether they invented that ex post facto. Fernand is also hurt by his good side being heavily in DLC. But whether paid DLC counts as "extra material" is semi-debatable.

 

8 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

I want the team that makes live action Fire Emblem Heroes commercials to make the live action Fire Emblem movie.

It would have nothing to do with Heroes but um...yeah I can't think of an on-topic justification for that.

The first couple movies would have nothing to do with Heroes, but eventually running low on ideas, they'd do a grand mashup of all of them, in a loose interpretation of Heroes.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'm not ignoring them, I was playing SMTIV: Apocalypse yesterday. I just considered the real long and dull narrative-heavy moments to be, if lacking in interactivity indeed, spaced out enough for it to be not such an issue. I play the genre first and foremost for gameplay though, and certainly did ignore the games that really layer on the cutscenes. Never have tried FFXIII for instance.

 

Quite true. Fates had its Hidden Truths DLC, which was a bad move (just unlock it after clearing Revelation once or something). And Shadows of Valentia had a lot of great information in its Valentian Accordion artbook, but very few fans will ever hear much less read that, to the detriment of Nuibaba and Deen at the very least. It also leaves some skepticism as to whether Nuibaba's past actually existed prior to the artbook, or whether they invented that ex post facto. Fernand is also hurt by his good side being heavily in DLC. But whether paid DLC counts as "extra material" is semi-debatable.

 

The first couple movies would have nothing to do with Heroes, but eventually running low on ideas, they'd do a grand mashup of all of them, in a loose interpretation of Heroes.

Have you played Final Fantasy X? I think that did a good job building atmosphere during quiet moments.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Have you played Final Fantasy X? I think that did a good job building atmosphere during quiet moments.

Yeah I cleared it a few years ago, although I don't remember the game intimately.

And since you brought that up, THAT is how you DON'T use story outside of the game, with that audio drama and related novella.

[sirmola]

10 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Quite true. Fates had its Hidden Truths DLC, which was a bad move (just unlock it after clearing Revelation once or something).

I almost mentioned that, but Fates' plot is garbage no matter how much additional material you read, and hidden truths specificaly makes no sense.

Edited August 29, 2018 by sirmola

[Zangetsu]

I don't necessarily see the harm on expanding the cast's backstory. It would be nice to see who's the hero that left Alfonse, how serious Anna takes her job as the commander of Askr, fleshing out Sharena, what was Bruno doing during the transition to Book 1 to 2, etc.

Hell,  this would also be great way to flesh out the antagonists too. Provide that someone knows what they're doing of course.

 

11 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Quite true. Fates had its Hidden Truths DLC, which was a bad move (just unlock it after clearing Revelation once or something). And Shadows of Valentia had a lot of great information in its Valentian Accordion artbook, but very few fans will ever hear much less read that, to the detriment of Nuibaba and Deen at the very least. It also leaves some skepticism as to whether Nuibaba's past actually existed prior to the artbook, or whether they invented that ex post facto. Fernand is also hurt by his good side being heavily in DLC. But whether paid DLC counts as "extra material" is semi-debatable.

I know that's the reason why I didn't really care all that much about the cast of Gaiden.

 

26 minutes ago, sirmola said:

I almost mentioned that, but Fates' plot is garbage no matter how much additional material you read, and hidden truths specificaly makes no sense.

I thoroughly disagree with this. Fate's setting has a lot to salvage even if a lot of that was behind pay walls