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Some Weapon Ideas


Jotari
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There was a thread like this way back when, but I think it's been long since buried. Anway, diving straight in.

 

Hand Axe/Javelin/Wind Edge

Doesn't take a genius to come up with this idea. Inheritable Distant Counter. I don't think it'd be too broken at all their might is lower than standard weapons. Plus Distant Counter is already in the inheritable pool in the form of Lightning Breath. I really can't see any reason not to do this.

 

Tomahawk/Spear/Tempest Blade

This one is probably a little more obtuse. Two range coloured weapons. Wouldn't be as much of a game changer now that coloured bows are a thing (a decision which I actually dislike a lot), but I still think it'd be cool.

 

Sword/Axe/Lance Reaver

Reverse the weapon triangle. This could cause all sorts of pain for players, especially if characters remain the same colour despite the change. And since it would be skill based, it could be negated using Cancel Affinity giving that skill some more viability.

 

Superior Edge/Axe/Lance

The reason I wanted to share these ideas. Weapons that give WTA against the same colour. So Superior Edge will give weapon triangle advantage against other red units. Once again it could be countered with Cancel Affinity.

 

Wyrmslayer/Dragon Pike/Dragon Axe

Inheritable dragon slaying weapons. If only to have a blue dragon slaying option.

Edited by Jotari
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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Hand Axe/Javelin/Wind Edge

Doesn't take a genius to come up with this idea. Inheritable Distant Counter. I don't think it'd be too broken at all their might is lower than standard weapons. Plus Distant Counter is already in the inheritable pool in the form of Lightning Breath. I really can't see any reason not to do this.

You can just give them the same 11 Mt as Lightning Breath+ (12 Mt after refine) and slowed Special activation, and I think it would be fine.

No adaptive damage because that's a breath weapon thing.

 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Tomahawk/Spear/Tempest Blade

This one is probably a little more obtuse. Two range coloured weapons. Wouldn't be as much of a game changer now that coloured bows are a thing (a decision which I actually dislike a lot), but I still think it'd be cool.

The only way this would be balanced at all is if they had their Mt lowered enough to compensate for the fact that melee units have higher stat totals than ranged units.

And, by the way, to fully compensate for the fact that melee units have higher stat totals than ranged units, these weapons would need somewhere around 2 Mt. Which would make them completely worthless.

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Reverse the weapon triangle. This could cause all sorts of pain for players, especially if characters remain the same colour despite the change.

Reaver weapons would be annoying and would be poor game design in the context of Heroes. Every unit has their weapon icon on the node's title card on on the corner of the unit, and it's a good heuristic way to figure out what kind of units you should be bringing to the node or which unit you should engage the enemy with.

Changing the icon when the unit has a Reaver weapon adds unnecessary complexity (the red-blue-green triangle is elegantly simple), and this game doesn't need yet another reason to check every single enemy's skill set.

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

And since it would be skill based, it could be negated using Cancel Affinity giving that skill some more viability.

Cancel Affinity affects skills that affect "weapon triangle affinity", i.e. the amount that the weapon triangle affects the unit. Reversing the weapon triangle isn't the same thing.

 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

If only to have a blue dragon slaying option.

Cloud Maiougi.

Having non-dagger inheritable dragon-effective weapons is only balanced if they add a corresponding effective damage negation skill. Implementing both the weapons and the counter skill would weaken dragons slightly because they won't always be running Steady Breath or Warding Breath anymore, but it would severely weaken Falchions because Nowi would be the most likely unit to carry such a skill.

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I think Dorcas already has a tomahawk?

They might give Gatrie a javelin. Wind edge will probably just be a distance counter sword, but sonic sword could be implemented as a "staff."

 

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You can just give them the same 11 Mt as Lightning Breath+ (12 Mt after refine) and slowed Special activation, and I think it would be fine.

No adaptive damage because that's a breath weapon thing.

That sounds like a very nice way to handle that. I hope its availability starts in the 4* pool though.

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Adamant Sword/Axe/Lance/Bow

14 ATK (12 for bow). Effect - Negates ALL skills that affect double attacks. Unique refine - Also negates ALL skills that affect special charge.

Basically to bring Fighter/Breath skills and QR in line. Also stops BA/Desperation combo, along with Guard. Similarly to Hardy Bearing, this affects both characters.

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49 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

Adamant Sword/Axe/Lance/Bow

14 ATK (12 for bow). Effect - Negates ALL skills that affect double attacks. Unique refine - Also negates ALL skills that affect special charge.

Basically to bring Fighter/Breath skills and QR in line. Also stops BA/Desperation combo, along with Guard. Similarly to Hardy Bearing, this affects both characters.

Negating Weaponbreaker skills, Wary Fighter, Great Flame, and Thunder Armads on top of what you're intending it to work against is broken as all hell.

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Hey most of these are things me an a friend have thought would be good, that and just a triangle reverse skill.
Not so sure on the extra ranged weapons. That just feels like an evolve to add 1 might situation waiting to happen. So it'll happen for sure.

Another kind I'd like is either Slim weapons or Blade type weapons. weapons with Heavy Blade or Flashing Blade type effect.

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7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You can just give them the same 11 Mt as Lightning Breath+ (12 Mt after refine) and slowed Special activation, and I think it would be fine.

No adaptive damage because that's a breath weapon thing.

 

The only way this would be balanced at all is if they had their Mt lowered enough to compensate for the fact that melee units have higher stat totals than ranged units.

And, by the way, to fully compensate for the fact that melee units have higher stat totals than ranged units, these weapons would need somewhere around 2 Mt. Which would make them completely worthless.

 

Reaver weapons would be annoying and would be poor game design in the context of Heroes. Every unit has their weapon icon on the node's title card on on the corner of the unit, and it's a good heuristic way to figure out what kind of units you should be bringing to the node or which unit you should engage the enemy with.

Changing the icon when the unit has a Reaver weapon adds unnecessary complexity (the red-blue-green triangle is elegantly simple), and this game doesn't need yet another reason to check every single enemy's skill set.

 

Cancel Affinity affects skills that affect "weapon triangle affinity", i.e. the amount that the weapon triangle affects the unit. Reversing the weapon triangle isn't the same thing.

 

Cloud Maiougi.

Having non-dagger inheritable dragon-effective weapons is only balanced if they add a corresponding effective damage negation skill. Implementing both the weapons and the counter skill would weaken dragons slightly because they won't always be running Steady Breath or Warding Breath anymore, but it would severely weaken Falchions because Nowi would be the most likely unit to carry such a skill.

I'm sure two ranged weapons could have a mt sweet spot that works for them better than 2. After all, consider that these weapons would be in competition with the likes of Brave and Slaying weapons.

Yeah, I no Reaver weapons would be hell on the player, but well I like that kind of monstrously cruel design sometimes XD And we do have something of the sort already with some weapons having wta over colourless units. As far as Cancel Affinity goes, there is no skill that reverses the weapon triangle, right? So they'd fully be able to include it among the list of things cancel affinity covers if it happened.

No comments in the viability of Superior weapons?

Edited by Jotari
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Raider Bow/Raider Bow+

If foe with Range=1 counterattacks: this unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack and the foe's follow-up attack is negated.

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1 hour ago, X-Naut said:

Raider Bow/Raider Bow+

If foe with Range=1 counterattacks: this unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack and the foe's follow-up attack is negated.

A hard counter to distant counter would be good. Even without the hand axes it runs rampant.

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We have Cavalry-effective physical weapons and tomes, and we have Armor-effective weapons. Why not have Armor-effective tomes? Call em... Raur/Blar/Gronnbear(+)!

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4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm sure two ranged weapons could have a mt sweet spot that works for them better than 2. After all, consider that these weapons would be in competition with the likes of Brave and Slaying weapons.

And consider that these weapons also are in competition with actual ranged units.

 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, I no Reaver weapons would be hell on the player, but well I like that kind of monstrously cruel design sometimes XD And we do have something of the sort already with some weapons having wta over colourless units.

Litrraven is predictable, however, and any player worth their salt already knows that a tome icon means there's a chance some of them may be running the weapon. Not only that, but the effect of "is strong against colorless" is a much smaller cognitive load than "reverse the color order you are already used to".

It's already hard enough for me to remember that swords are effective against lances every time I switch over to playing Fate/Grand Order.

 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

As far as Cancel Affinity goes, there is no skill that reverses the weapon triangle, right?

But we do have a weapon skill that changes what weapon types are effective against what weapon types, and you already mentioned it: Litrraven.

And Litrraven's effect is unaffected by Cancel Affinity.

 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

No comments in the viability of Superior weapons?

Because they weren't there when I was posting.

Superior weapons are extremely similar Litrraven and somewhat similar to gem weapons. I'd expect them to have 12 Mt (same as gem weapons) and be unable to be refined.

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4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm sure two ranged weapons could have a mt sweet spot that works for them better than 2. After all, consider that these weapons would be in competition with the likes of Brave and Slaying weapons.

Melee infantry with ranged Weapons are essentially ranged units with a massive BST boost. 2 Mt or less is justified. Melee infantry are in the 160 BST range while ranged infantry are in the 150 BST range, and that is essentially an extra 10 stats available for distribution.

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

And consider that these weapons also are in competition with actual ranged units.

 

Litrraven is predictable, however, and any player worth their salt already knows that a tome icon means there's a chance some of them may be running the weapon. Not only that, but the effect of "is strong against colorless" is a much smaller cognitive load than "reverse the color order you are already used to".

It's already hard enough for me to remember that swords are effective against lances every time I switch over to playing Fate/Grand Order.

 

But we do have a weapon skill that changes what weapon types are effective against what weapon types, and you already mentioned it: Litrraven.

And Litrraven's effect is unaffected by Cancel Affinity.

 

Because they weren't there when I was posting.

Superior weapons are extremely similar Litrraven and somewhat similar to gem weapons. I'd expect them to have 12 Mt (same as gem weapons) and be unable to be refined.

What? Did I really hit edit before mentioning superior weapons? They legitimately were the idea I wanted to suggest most. Also my bad, I was under the impression Cancel Affinity worked on the likes of Naglfar. Why Cancel Affinity always suggested on colourless units then?

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Why Cancel Affinity always suggested on colourless units then?

Because pretty much every build that runs Litrraven also runs Triangle Adept to capitalize on the fact that it grants a massive boost to both damage and bulk against two colors instead of just one (and also because tome users usually have mediocre physical bulk otherwise).

Cancel Affinity reverses Triangle Adept's effect, but is powerless against a unit running only Litrraven without Triangle Adept (but those are rare outside of PvE, so it usually isn't an issue).

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7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Negating Weaponbreaker skills, Wary Fighter, Great Flame, and Thunder Armads on top of what you're intending it to work against is broken as all hell.

TBH, you can go with lowering Mt to about 12. This means that while it's broken if the enemy HAS those skills, it's underperforming otherwise.

Though I think I should've made it in a skill form.

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15 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

TBH, you can go with lowering Mt to about 12. This means that while it's broken if the enemy HAS those skills, it's underperforming otherwise.

Though I think I should've made it in a skill form.

It might not be as broken in player hands if you lower the Mt, but it's still utterly broken in the AI's hands because the AI only needs one kill to "win".

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57 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Because pretty much every build that runs Litrraven also runs Triangle Adept to capitalize on the fact that it grants a massive boost to both damage and bulk against two colors instead of just one (and also because tome users usually have mediocre physical bulk otherwise).

Cancel Affinity reverses Triangle Adept's effect, but is powerless against a unit running only Litrraven without Triangle Adept (but those are rare outside of PvE, so it usually isn't an issue).

If that's the case then I could see reaver weapons being implemented in a way that just plain changes the colour of the unit. I really wish that's how they handled coloured bows and knives, make it a property of the weapon instead of the unit. Alternatively, reaver weapons could be significantly less problematic if they were prf to one unit. That way the mental switch would be easier as they know which units they need to swap logic for.

Edited by Jotari
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Just now, Jotari said:

If that's the case then I could see tracer weapons being implemented in a way that just plain changes the colour of the unit. I really wish that's how they handled coloured bows and knives, make it a property of the weapon instead of the unit. I can also point out that reaver weapons would be significantly less problematic if they were prf to one unit. That way the mental switch would be easier as they know which units they need to swap logic for.

Colored bows at least make sense on the units they are on. Mulagir is a bow of wind and green is the color of wind magic. Thogn is assumed to be a bow of light (likely based on Lucina's ethereal bow of light in Warriors) and blue is the color of light magic.

As for color being determined by the weapon, that's a problematic thing because color and weapon type are designed as properties of the unit itself as evidenced by the fact that Weaponbreakers and effective damage against weapon types continue to work even against units that have no weapon equipped.

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Colored bows at least make sense on the units they are on. Mulagir is a bow of wind and green is the color of wind magic. Thogn is assumed to be a bow of light (likely based on Lucina's ethereal bow of light in Warriors) and blue is the color of light magic.

As for color being determined by the weapon, that's a problematic thing because color and weapon type are designed as properties of the unit itself as evidenced by the fact that Weaponbreakers and effective damage against weapon types continue to work even against units that have no weapon equipped.

I don't see how that would be a problem. We'd be talking pretty unique cases. It absolutely is determined by the unit, but it wouldn't be difficult to have a weapon that overrides that with an effect. Wouldn't really be any less weird than having a bunch of bow and knife icons on all the skill limitations. The only place I could see it really acting weird would be for quests that require you to use certain units. Although even then I think that's useually only movement types while weapon and colour quests involve kill X number of units with Y weapon/colour.

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17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

We'd be talking pretty unique cases.

Programmers and testers hate "unique cases".

 

24 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It absolutely is determined by the unit, but it wouldn't be difficult to have a weapon that overrides that with an effect.

No, this fundamentally changes how skills that affect weapon types works and potentially also how Skill Inheritance works. If your unit's color is determined by the weapon it is carrying, then it's no longer determined by the unit itself.

This would also completely screw up Skill Inheritance on skills that are restricted solely by color (colored Weaponbreakers and Triangle Adept).

 

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Although even then I think that's useually only movement types while weapon and colour quests involve kill X number of units with Y weapon/colour.

The weapon workout quests require kills with colorless bows and colorless daggers. Similarly, Bowbreaker, Daggerbreaker, and Assassin Bow only work against colorless units.

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4 hours ago, XRay said:

Melee infantry with ranged Weapons are essentially ranged units with a massive BST boost. 2 Mt or less is justified. Melee infantry are in the 160 BST range while ranged infantry are in the 150 BST range, and that is essentially an extra 10 stats available for distribution.

This and the weapons shouldnt be inheritable to armored units. Seriously lets just fix dagger users and bow user first. Dagger users and bow users outside of PVE content are either forced to run Firesweep or  Windsweep... which is kinda sad

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