Surtr is my favorite Heroes OC, fight me

[Etrurian emperor]

8 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Though Ashnard was insane in how he was actually making a Blood Pact that he would not have any immunity to. The pact was made with his father and Sephiran as the signers. So one of them have to die and the paper destroyed to remove the curse. But in that regard, the fact that Ashnard did not stop the curse until all the successors that were before him died shows how insane it was. He could have died, then no one would break the pact, and all of Daein would end up destroyed. 

I think the blood pact plot goes pretty nicely with Ashnard general philosphy. He might not personally go on a murder spree but the blood pact still ensures he is in constant danger. Ashnard probably willingly took the risk of possibly falling ill and dying with all the others because if he wasn't strong enough to survive the blood pact plague then he didn't deserve to rule in the first place. 

[omegaxis1]

12 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

I'd say he actually has more in common with Medeus than anyone else, though Medeus was a bit more of a dick about things and a bit more self serving by the end of it, e.g. tricking all the other Earth Dragons into going to sleep.

Medeus didn't trick the other Earth Dragons. What are you talking about? Medeus was the only Earth Dragon that was willing to become a Manakete to avoid degeneration. The other Earth Dragons degenerated into wild beasts, got into a war with the Divine Dragons, lost, and then were sealed off into slumber. 

Medeus was by far one of the most justified villains in the series, as he had to put up with humans persecuting the Manaketes for an entire millennium. He founded Dolhr for the purpose of reinstating the superiority of dragons to the humans that made his kind suffer. 

I once said that Sephiran had the best reason for wanting to annihilate the humankind, but honestly, Medeus has more reason to, since he endured this for a thousand years. Only issue is that Medeus's motivations weren't actually explored in the actual story sadly.

[bottlegnomes]

@omegaxis1 I'll do some checking but I thought there was something about Medeus kinda betraying the other earth dragons a little. That said, Iay be misremembering. It's been a while since I read it. I know it was on the main site, so I'll check. But yeah, Medeus's general goals were pretty justified, and unlike Sephiran, he didn't even want to destroy the world, just make dragons dominant so people couldn't push them around, from.what I recall.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, bottlegnomes said:

@omegaxis1 I'll do some checking but I thought there was something about Medeus kinda betraying the other earth dragons a little. That said, Iay be misremembering. It's been a while since I read it. I know it was on the main site, so I'll check. But yeah, Medeus's general goals were pretty justified, and unlike Sephiran, he didn't even want to destroy the world, just make dragons dominant so people couldn't push them around, from.what I recall.

Mhm. You could say that if he was in the Tellius world, he would be the laguz that wants to enslave the beorcs, be one of the negative laguz that would commit wrong to the beorcs. Which the Tellius series honestly lacked, since you generally feel the laguz have the moral high ground.

[bottlegnomes]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Mhm. You could say that if he was in the Tellius world, he would be the laguz that wants to enslave the beorcs, be one of the negative laguz that would commit wrong to the beorcs. Which the Tellius series honestly lacked, since you generally feel the laguz have the moral high ground.

Definitely a good way of putting it. And yeah, there are some Laguz that are kind of jerks, but it's generally treated as at least somewhat justified. The bird tribes turned to piracy because they had no other way to support themselves, and Lethe didn't like Beorc because of the years of racism for example. Nothing that's just prejudice for the sake of prejudice.

Also, now that I think about it, I'm not actually certain the thing was on the main site. I'll still check, but it might have been in a fan translation of 3 or 12, so could even be a mistranslation. I just remembered reading something and thinking well that was kind of douchey.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Which the Tellius series honestly lacked, since you generally feel the laguz have the moral high ground.

The sadly unfortunate effect of them being the "Other"/Minority expy in the Beorc-Laguz relationship, as opposed to it being a relation of two equal oppressors where there is no Other/Minority. Why did IS go with this? I would think because it has been done so much before, and it is more politically correct/progressive.

This world does not need beorc. And the laguz…are deeply flawed.

That, a vague statement, is all Sephiran can say of the Laguz as to why they should be eradicated. He has the evidence of Beorc irredeemability all around them literally at that moment, but he can't come up with anything specific for the Laguz.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The sadly unfortunate effect of them being the "Other"/Minority expy in the Beorc-Laguz relationship, as opposed to it being a relation of two equal oppressors where there is no Other/Minority. Why did IS go with this? I would think because it has been done so much before, and it is more politically correct/progressive.

This world does not need beorc. And the laguz…are deeply flawed.

That, a vague statement, is all Sephiran can say of the Laguz as to why they should be eradicated. He has the evidence of Beorc irredeemability all around them literally at that moment, but he can't come up with anything specific for the Laguz.

That's cause the laguz are generally depicted as honorable creatures. Even Naesala, a backstabber, is a good guy and only does it because he's Begnion's puppet. But most laguz, in the end, are generally never shown to be the offenders. And this is despite how it was stated that in the past,the laguz have oppressed the beorc, which I honestly cannot even believe happened because of how all laguz have been depicted as.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The sadly unfortunate effect of them being the "Other"/Minority expy in the Beorc-Laguz relationship, as opposed to it being a relation of two equal oppressors where there is no Other/Minority. Why did IS go with this? I would think because it has been done so much before, and it is more politically correct/progressive.

This world does not need beorc. And the laguz…are deeply flawed.

That, a vague statement, is all Sephiran can say of the Laguz as to why they should be eradicated. He has the evidence of Beorc irredeemability all around them literally at that moment, but he can't come up with anything specific for the Laguz.

That's actually a localisation liberty. In the Japanese text he says "the world doesn't need beorc nor does it need laguz." I kind of always read the localized line as showing is slight bias towards the laguz given he is one. I agree that we could have done with some more genuine villainous laguz to even the scales, but they're not all amazing and rosey in Lehran's eyes. Part of his biggest guff is the fact that the dragon laguz stood by and let everything happen.

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's cause the laguz are generally depicted as honorable creatures. Even Naesala, a backstabber, is a good guy and only does it because he's Begnion's puppet. But most laguz, in the end, are generally never shown to be the offenders. And this is despite how it was stated that in the past,the laguz have oppressed the beorc, which I honestly cannot even believe happened because of how all laguz have been depicted as.

Why can't you believe that laguz depicted beorc in the past? We might not get many laguz villains aside from the odd bandit, but they are pretty rounded characters as far as people go and enslaving people is something people are capable of. It's not like every laguz is a saint even among the ones we see.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Why can't you believe that laguz depicted beorc in the past? We might not get many laguz villains aside from the odd bandit, but they are pretty rounded characters as far as people go and enslaving people is something people are capable of. It's not like every laguz is a saint even among the ones we see.

Because I honestly can't. 

I haven't seen a single laguz that tries to enforce the laguz supremacy ideal. Laguz that hate beorc comes in spades, but they are generally justified for their actions. The laguz holds such a moral high ground that it's always the beorc that are to blame. Hell, the only reason that Lehran ever snapped is because of what the beorc did to the Serenes Forest that resulted in a near genocide of an entire laguz tribe.

No matter how you look at it, the laguz have been nothing short of being honor bound beings. We've seen plenty, and I mean PLENTY of justification for how shitty the beorcs are. I can't say the same for the laguz.

[Interdimensional Observer]

7 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

And this is despite how it was stated that in the past,the laguz have oppressed the beorc, which I honestly cannot even believe happened because of how all laguz have been depicted as.

And it worth adding that even when Laguz oppression of the Beorc happened, it wasn't seemingly all that long. The dominance of Laguz over Beorc in the Kingdom of Begnion, founded in -131, could not have lasted that long, probably no more than a century. Since 0 is when the Theocracy of Begnion is founded, and that marks the beginning of the decline of the Laguz into oppression. PoR begins in 645, over six hundred years after Laguz oppressive dominance ended. So of the 777 years of Post-diluvian Telliusian history, no more than 17% of them had Laguz predominance. Maybe prior to the Great Flood the Laguz were more dominant as well, but the Recollection doesn't say anything on that, so we have nada to go on.

The years between 0 and 645 are largely marked in the Recollection by independence movements from Begnion, over half of which were about Laguz. Not helping either.

 

7 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Even Naesala, a backstabber, is a good guy and only does it because he's Begnion's puppet.

*Sigh* How much I wish IS hadn't done this. Why'd they have to cheapen Naesala like this? He in PoR displayed absolutely no signs of being a puppet, he seemed perfectly independent and shady-gray. 

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

That's actually a localisation liberty. In the Japanese text he says "the world doesn't need beorc nor does it need laguz." I kind of always read the localized line as showing is slight bias towards the laguz given he is one.

*Checks* You're right!

“…Humans… 350 years still remain. But there is no need to continue waiting. This world does not need beorc. And neither does it need laguz…Both are deeply flawed.

I wouldn't call this a "localization liberty" though, I think it was more an outright translation error. Given "deeply flawed" remains, and the keeping of the ellipsis, I think they were aiming for a direct translation, but somehow forgot the "And neither does it need" part, despite similar language being used and properly translated in the preceding sentence.

[omegaxis1]

8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And it worth adding that even when Laguz oppression of the Beorc happened, it wasn't seemingly all that long. The dominance of Laguz over Beorc in the Kingdom of Begnion, founded in -131, could not have lasted that long, probably no more than a century. Since 0 is when the Theocracy of Begnion is founded, and that marks the beginning of the decline of the Laguz into oppression. PoR begins in 645, over six hundred years after Laguz oppressive dominance ended. So of the 777 years of Post-diluvian Telliusian history, no more than 17% of them had Laguz predominance. Maybe prior to the Great Flood the Laguz were more dominant as well, but the Recollection doesn't say anything on that, so we have nada to go on.

The years between 0 and 645 are largely marked in the Recollection by independence movements from Begnion, over half of which were about Laguz. Not helping either.

5

The funny thing is, if we compare what the Tellius series lacks with Medeus, they each have what I feel the other needs.

What Medeus sorely lacked is a case of showing the Manakete oppression, and how horrible things were for them that Medeus would feel justified for why he is attacking humans.

And the Tellius series needed villains like Medeus that would try to impose supremacy for his kind over that of the humans. 

Also, looking at the timeline, one might actually think that once the humans learned to actually fight back, that was when the laguz began to lose. Perhaps magic or weapons to combat the laguz started happening around that time. 

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

*Sigh* How much I wish IS hadn't done this. Why'd they have to cheapen Naesala like this? He in PoR displayed absolutely no signs of being a puppet, he seemed perfectly independent and shady-gray. 

1

Yeah, I personally preferred Naesala in PoR. He wasn't evil, but he wasn't a good person either. I mean, dude literally sold a guy that was his friend. But he was the type that wanted to help the people of his nation. You understand why he does it, but that doesn't change that he's was quite a dick. 

[Specta]

many interesting words said but keep in mind we're focusing on surtr/the topic in this thread my buckaroos

Edited September 16, 2018 by Specta

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Because I honestly can't. 

I haven't seen a single laguz that tries to enforce the laguz supremacy ideal. Laguz that hate beorc comes in spades, but they are generally justified for their actions. The laguz holds such a moral high ground that it's always the beorc that are to blame. Hell, the only reason that Lehran ever snapped is because of what the beorc did to the Serenes Forest that resulted in a near genocide of an entire laguz tribe.

No matter how you look at it, the laguz have been nothing short of being honor bound beings. We've seen plenty, and I mean PLENTY of justification for how shitty the beorcs are. I can't say the same for the laguz.

Well I've never met a white supremacist, but I don't doubt that they're real.

hour ago, Specta said:

many interesting words said but keep in mind we're focusing on surtr/the topic in this thread my buckaroos

Ack! An admin acknowledged derail. How about we move this convo to a Medeus Vs Laguz thread?

Edited September 16, 2018 by Jotari

[NekoKnight]

Whew lad, there certainly are some... interesting opinions in this thread. But to give my own take on the matter:

Surtr is the second worst villain in the series (second only to Iago who is an idiot on top of being one dimensionally evil). While Ashnard is insane and evil, he has a personal philosophy and drive to create a new world. That's what we call a motivation, which isn't something Surtr has. I'd disagree that Surtr is even better than Garon, for the problem with Garon wasn't so much the character as it was the Nohr siblings' refusal to see him for the evil despot that he was. Surtr is most comparable to Grima in Awakening (before SoV and Heroes added more characterization), a force of nature that destroys just because it can, but even then Grima ties into the themes of Awakening, representing the fatalism that the heroes oppose with their determinism.

Surtr started off refreshing. He was imposing and brutal, a cruel force of nature that could only be run from. But that's the entirety of his character. He doesn't have a motivation beyond cruelty and each subsequent appearance is just him going "Muhahaha, I burn you". Again and again for 13 bloody chapters.  He doesn't inspire growth in the heroes and he doesn't become more nuanced himself. It certainly doesn't help that Surtr has convenient teleportation powers and plot armor in order to cause the most suffering for the heroes. If I want despair porn, I think I'll just watch Fate Zero, thanks.

The only positive I can say about Surtr is that his nigh immortality creates a better basis for Laegjarn, a character I actually enjoy, being a Camus. We may have even been able to tolerate Surtr if the writers made the heroes' party interesting, but we got Fjorm instead.

[Zangetsu]

On 9/14/2018 at 8:04 AM, Jotari said:

I doubt anyone does, but I'm actually with you. i think we should have standards when it comes to this sort of stuff. It's been like less than twelve hours.

I'm not saying Serene Forest needs to, but I am saying that people of the internet needs to be more considerate. I'm playing Spider-Man (PS4) & go on Youtube & suddenly the ending of the game is on recommendation list. Like the actual hell, I barely click any Spider-Man (PS4) videos on & they pull that shit on me.

 

I wanna really put my cents on Surtur, but I'm trying to gather my thoughts. Never thought he would ever be compare to Ashnard, that's interesting to say the least.

23 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

We may have even been able to tolerate Surtr if the writers made the heroes' party interesting, but we got Fjorm instead.

I feel like way too many people give Fjorm crap, but I'm not surprise given how story went. I do know she has her defenders on Reddit at least.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Zangetsu

[Jotari]

21 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

I'm saying Serene Forest needs to, but I am saying that people of the internet needs to be more considerate. I'm playing Spider-Man (PS4) & go on Youtube & suddenly the ending of the game is on recommendation list. Like the actual hell, I barely click any Spider-Man (PS4) videos on & they pull that shit on me.

 

I wanna really put my cents on Surtur, but I'm trying to gather my thoughts. Never thought he would ever be compare to Ashnard, that's interesting to say the least.

I feel like way too many people give Fjorm crap, but I'm not surprise given how story went. I do know she has her defenders on Reddit at least.

Didnt know Fjorm was all that disliked at all. Maybe I should make a thread about her. I don't particularly like her, but never viewed her as any worse than the other heroes. At the very least she had more interesting gameplay utility.

[NekoKnight]

37 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

I feel like way too many people give Fjorm crap, but I'm not surprise given how story went. I do know she has her defenders on Reddit at leas

I don't know what can be said in her favor. I can't tell you anything about her personality and her plot role is just to suffer and spout exposition.

[Etrurian emperor]

16 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Medeus was by far one of the most justified villains in the series, as he had to put up with humans persecuting the Manaketes for an entire millennium. He founded Dolhr for the purpose of reinstating the superiority of dragons to the humans that made his kind suffer. 

I once said that Sephiran had the best reason for wanting to annihilate the humankind, but honestly, Medeus has more reason to, since he endured this for a thousand years. Only issue is that Medeus's motivations weren't actually explored in the actual story sadly.

Theoretically this is true but this aspect of Medeus loses a lot of weight because we only have a single statement from Xane to go on. Medeus himself or any commander from Dohlr never bring this up. In the rare moment Medeus actually opens his mouth all he does is act like a generic evil overlord and I believe the only other Dohlr commander with any lines is the governor of Altea who seems like he belongs to the Garon school of villainy. In the very first game where no one had dialogue this is understandably but in New Mystery people actually could say interesting things if they wanted to(like Xane telling about the Manakete discrimination) and Medeus is STILL not in any rush to defend his actions with this fairly justified reasoning. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Theoretically this is true but this aspect of Medeus loses a lot of weight because we only have a single statement from Xane to go on. Medeus himself or any commander from Dohlr never bring this up. In the rare moment Medeus actually opens his mouth all he does is act like a generic evil overlord and I believe the only other Dohlr commander with any lines is the governor of Altea who seems like he belongs to the Garon school of villainy. In the very first game where no one had dialogue this is understandably but in New Mystery people actually could say interesting things if they wanted to(like Xane telling about the Manakete discrimination) and Medeus is STILL not in any rush to defend his actions with this fairly justified reasoning. 

Nah, quite a few Doluna commanders have lines, though they're not all that interesting. The one you referenced mocks Marth about how he ate Marth's mother and has the pretty bad ass line "Medeus wouldn't have put me on this throne if he thought you could take it from me, boy." Aside from him, there's two (with lines) when liberating Akaneia itself. One is a manakete outside (the first you fight I think) who just talks like a psychopath, while the one inside is inherently interesting due to him appearing to be human. Though all he says is that they're idiots for challenging Doluna (incidentally, I think it's quite the missed opportunity he wasn't an archer wielding Parthia. It was right there, Doluna had it, why didn't any of their soldiers think to use it? They used Gradivus). The last Doluna character (outside of the BS chapters) is probably the least memorable one, but funnily enough is the only one that doesn't act like a complete dick and brings up the manakete oppression. It's the one in the second last chapter (discounting the Alterspire) who guards Medeus' castle outside. To quote his exact words

“This land, all of it - it belonged to us! Then you humans took it...defiled it!”

 

 

 

[Specta]

guys.............. no more derail as of This Line

Edited September 16, 2018 by Specta

[Tenzen12]

6 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I don't know what can be said in her favor. I can't tell you anything about her personality and her plot role is just to suffer and spout exposition.

Yeah, I don't hate her, but I don't know any reason to like her either. She is sort of just there (plus she is stealing spotline from Sharena!). 

I certainly think Sutr has more personality then her. Fortunately she is dying now, with bit of luck it might help her get her some new personity traits. 

 

[omegaxis1]

Surtur was just a villain built for the sole purpose of being so evil and vicious and cruel, that you want him to die a humiliating death, which thankfully we got as of this chapter. With Fjorm throwing the "Because you are weak" line right back at him, and he is filled with anger because he had to die.

A repeated argument is about him compared to Ashnard. To be honest, it is true that Surtur actually did more. All Ashnard did on screen was say orders, trash talk, threaten people, or just seem evil. He started a war, and he had a clear goal. Ashnard having a goal actually makes him better than Surtur, who did all this on a whim because he's evil. Surtur had no real goal in the story.

But unlike Ashnard, and Garon for that matter, Surtur actually gets actively involved in the story. He does fight the heroes, repeatedly too, and always forces them to retreat. And he really shows just how vicious and sadistic he is, how he goes into detail about how being burned alive feels, how he looks absolutely gleeful at the idea that he will kill Veronica too, and then how he purposefully left Gunnthra barely alive just so that Fjorm can come and then witness her sister being killed. I honestly don't think there has been anyone that is shown to be as vicious and sadistic as him. 

And again...

Quote

Takumi: He broke Xander's arm. So, you know, that was fun. 

However, a lot of Surtur's boastful comments about the strong is bullshit when he's only a pathetic guy that rides on the power he got. This is also another problem I had with Ashnard and the Black Knight. The Black Knight is supposed to be really strong. But rather than show him to be so skilled that he can crush everyone like he should be able to at that point in time, he has armor blessed by the goddess and therefore cannot be harmed unless they have a weapon blessed by the goddess. I honestly feel that was pointless and just cheapens him. 

And Ashnard, a guy that boasts about how he seems to think that he's the strongest and loves to have a good fight, ends up in a fight where the only ones that can actually hurt him are Ike, Laguz Kings, and Naesala/Ena. It's silly and just made it so that Ashnard made it so that someone needs to have the lucky weapon to fight him. 

It's one of the reasons why Gharnef from the Archanea series has issues too. He's supposed to be an incredibly powerful sorcerer, and he does have the power, but his main schtik is the hax invincible ability. So you cannot truly tell if he's supposed to be able to be that strong when the moment you can hurt him, you beat him. 

It's one of the reasons why I actually like Walhart. He is someone that desires strength above all else, but instead of relying on some cheap hax armor or such, he wins through his own might and skill. 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Surtur was just a villain built for the sole purpose of being so evil and vicious and cruel, that you want him to die a humiliating death, which thankfully we got as of this chapter. With Fjorm throwing the "Because you are weak" line right back at him, and he is filled with anger because he had to die.

A repeated argument is about him compared to Ashnard. To be honest, it is true that Surtur actually did more. All Ashnard did on screen was say orders, trash talk, threaten people, or just seem evil. He started a war, and he had a clear goal. Ashnard having a goal actually makes him better than Surtur, who did all this on a whim because he's evil. Surtur had no real goal in the story.

But unlike Ashnard, and Garon for that matter, Surtur actually gets actively involved in the story. He does fight the heroes, repeatedly too, and always forces them to retreat. And he really shows just how vicious and sadistic he is, how he goes into detail about how being burned alive feels, how he looks absolutely gleeful at the idea that he will kill Veronica too, and then how he purposefully left Gunnthra barely alive just so that Fjorm can come and then witness her sister being killed. I honestly don't think there has been anyone that is shown to be as vicious and sadistic as him. 

And again...

However, a lot of Surtur's boastful comments about the strong is bullshit when he's only a pathetic guy that rides on the power he got. This is also another problem I had with Ashnard and the Black Knight. The Black Knight is supposed to be really strong. But rather than show him to be so skilled that he can crush everyone like he should be able to at that point in time, he has armor blessed by the goddess and therefore cannot be harmed unless they have a weapon blessed by the goddess. I honestly feel that was pointless and just cheapens him. 

And Ashnard, a guy that boasts about how he seems to think that he's the strongest and loves to have a good fight, ends up in a fight where the only ones that can actually hurt him are Ike, Laguz Kings, and Naesala/Ena. It's silly and just made it so that Ashnard made it so that someone needs to have the lucky weapon to fight him. 

It's one of the reasons why Gharnef from the Archanea series has issues too. He's supposed to be an incredibly powerful sorcerer, and he does have the power, but his main schtik is the hax invincible ability. So you cannot truly tell if he's supposed to be able to be that strong when the moment you can hurt him, you beat him. 

It's one of the reasons why I actually like Walhart. He is someone that desires strength above all else, but instead of relying on some cheap hax armor or such, he wins through his own might and skill. 

I actually find this thing believable on Hardin funny enough. He is shown midway through the game just how bullshit dealing with him is, and.... it stays, at least in New Mystery

 

He overwhelm you with sheer number, pulls off the most bullshit sanwhich ambush 24/7(which seems to be his favorite strategy considering that its.... literally every chapter of New Mystery. Even Aurelis used this strategy.) and when you FINALLY reach him, your dealing with 80/30/30/30/30/30

 

 

Im guessing the issue of Gharnef is he isn't particularly that threatening of a boss?

Edited September 16, 2018 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[bottlegnomes]

I guess I'm one of the few people who doesn't have any real issue with Surtr's motivations. They aren't exactly complex or thought-provoking, but they are realistic enough. He's an asshole bully. How many of those have we all met? It may be somewhat lazy, but it's no less lazy than one suggestion I saw that was his wife was sick and Nifl wouldn't give him medicine so she died.

 

29 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

However, a lot of Surtur's boastful comments about the strong is bullshit when he's only a pathetic guy that rides on the power he got. This is also another problem I had with Ashnard and the Black Knight. The Black Knight is supposed to be really strong. But rather than show him to be so skilled that he can crush everyone like he should be able to at that point in time, he has armor blessed by the goddess and therefore cannot be harmed unless they have a weapon blessed by the goddess. I honestly feel that was pointless and just cheapens him. 

And Ashnard, a guy that boasts about how he seems to think that he's the strongest and loves to have a good fight, ends up in a fight where the only ones that can actually hurt him are Ike, Laguz Kings, and Naesala/Ena. It's silly and just made it so that Ashnard made it so that someone needs to have the lucky weapon to fight him. 

It's one of the reasons why Gharnef from the Archanea series has issues too. He's supposed to be an incredibly powerful sorcerer, and he does have the power, but his main schtik is the hax invincible ability. So you cannot truly tell if he's supposed to be able to be that strong when the moment you can hurt him, you beat him. 

It's one of the reasons why I actually like Walhart. He is someone that desires strength above all else, but instead of relying on some cheap hax armor or such, he wins through his own might and skill. 

Gharnef at least shows up in the first Khaden chapter. Granted, he's really only dangerous because he's unkillable, but at least it's something.

As far as the BK goes, I think it's because he's much more pragmatic. Aside from Greil and Ike, he doesn't actually care about fighting others. He's more concerned with accomplishing his goal, and giving others the opportunity to hurt him goes against that. Giving Greil and Ike a chance does go against that too, but I guess that's his hubris peaking through. Ashy, it does seem kind of weird and seemed like a bit of an awkward gameplay device. I kind of hope if they remake PoR they take that out. I mean, it's not like 90% of your units can really do much against him anyway given their average 20/20 stats. Capped Kieran with a forged silver axe does 12 damage and takes 32/49 health in return. Unless you have an equal number of healers and combatants, you're probably still only going to be able to engage him with a handful of units, and Ike would still be one of the better options.

Edited September 16, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[omegaxis1]

59 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

I actually find this thing believable on Hardin funny enough. He is shown midway through the game just how bullshit dealing with him is, and.... it stays, at least in New Mystery

He overwhelm you with sheer number, pulls off the most bullshit sanwhich ambush 24/7(which seems to be his favorite strategy considering that its.... literally every chapter of New Mystery. Even Aurelis used this strategy.) and when you FINALLY reach him, your dealing with 80/30/30/30/30/30

Im guessing the issue of Gharnef is he isn't particularly that threatening of a boss?

4

Hardin is supposed to be strong, even without the Darksphere giving him invincibility, but the invincibility was there probably there because of Imhullu. Gharnef's Imhullu was created from the Darksphere, which makes sense given that the Light and Starsphere was used to defeat Imhullu. So if Imhullu gives the invincibility power, so should the Darksphere. 

And yeah, Gharnef really isn't a threatening opponent once you can hurt him. 

37 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

I guess I'm one of the few people who doesn't have any real issue with Surtr's motivations. They aren't exactly complex or thought-provoking, but they are realistic enough. He's an asshole bully. How many of those have we all met? It may be somewhat lazy, but it's no less lazy than one suggestion I saw that was his wife was sick and Nifl wouldn't give him medicine so she died.

 

He's just a warmonger, then. 

37 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Gharnef at least shows up in the first Khaden chapter. Granted, he's really only dangerous because he's unkillable, but at least it's something.

 

Shows up, yes, but once you can get past the invincibility, he's not truly a foe you'd need to be worried about so much. His only threat is the invincibility the spell provides. Without it, Gharnef honestly isn't that strong. Which is sad, because he really should be strong. 

37 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

As far as the BK goes, I think it's because he's much more pragmatic. Aside from Greil and Ike, he doesn't actually care about fighting others. He's more concerned with accomplishing his goal, and giving others the opportunity to hurt him goes against that. Giving Greil and Ike a chance does go against that too, but I guess that's his hubris peaking through. Ashy, it does seem kind of weird and seemed like a bit of an awkward gameplay device. I kind of hope if they remake PoR they take that out. I mean, it's not like 90% of your units can really do much against him anyway given their average 20/20 stats. Capped Kieran with a forged silver axe does 12 damage and takes 32/49 health in return. Unless you have an equal number of healers and combatants, you're probably still only going to be able to engage him with a handful of units, and Ike would still be one of the better options.

2

Not really. The Black Knight has more than enough skill and prowess that he really doesn't need any armor. Anyone that tries to mess with him, they would be beaten down. Instead of Ranulf's attacks doing nothing, it would have been more epic if Ranulf's attack didn't actually hit. In that, the Black Knight read Ranulf like a book, predicted his attack and just dodged easily that Ranulf was not enough a warm up to the Black Knight. 

Sadly, they won't take out that feature. Because remember that it was said even beforehand that Ashnard got blessed armor from the Black Knight. But he honestly didn't need it. He's supposed to be really strong as a boss that you need the major powerhouses to actually fight him. Probably what Ashnard's thought process was that only the strong would have blessed weapons and thus had to be the strong that would fight Ashnard. 

Still feels silly that he needed a hax armor. 

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For the record, if anyone thinks I'm deviating from the topic, I'm not. This still ties into Surtur since he's just using an invincibility function to be threatening most of the time.

Edited September 16, 2018 by omegaxis1