Surtr is my favorite Heroes OC, fight me

[Jotari]

57 minutes ago, XRay said:

It is not paranoia. It is being cautious and conservative. If you are investing in a company, you should at least have a decent understanding of what your are investing in. Until I see a more detailed set of financial statements, it is impossible to draw any more meaningful conclusion beyond "Nintendo is making a profit for the past few years."

Expenses are not just in developing and maintaining the game. There are also variable expenses like sales costs (Google alone takes a 30% cut of the gross revenue) and a whole bunch of other stuff that we do not know about.

Blindly assuming Heroes is making a ton of profit for Nintendo without the numbers to back it up is reckless. When Pokémon Go was released, Nintendo's stock shot up like crazy and it was overvalued as hell until investors realized that Nintendo was not the main developer behind the game and Nintendo takes a far smaller share than investors assumed. The stock quickly came back down to a more reasonable level when the investors realized their mistake.

While I hope Nintendo is taking a greater share in the profits this time around, there could be other shit under the hood that I do not know about, and if Nintendo is not lifting their hood up to show their financial statements, the most sensible action is to assume the worst.

Nintendo rarely disclose their profits or sales (because really why should they?). Them not revealing their taxes to the world doesn't mean they aren't making money off it. Google taking a cut, even one as large as 30% doesn't mean profit isn't happening in a large degree (of course this also depends on what once considers is big in terms of profit). Think of it this way, last summer the game made 47 million, we must assume that number is reasonably profitable or otherwise the game would be cancelled (ie enough to keep the lights on and everyone employed at the very least). This year it's made 63 million, so that's a net increase of 16 million dollars. It's also a safe bet that the cost of production has not significantly increased between last year and this year, some people who have been working on the game continuously will have been given pay rises, but not in an order of magnitude in the millions. Even if google is taking 30% of that an other unknown overheads are taking away up to 50% of the net profit from the investors, it's still clear they're making quite a bit of money. How much? No idea, but it's far from razor thin. We know the game was making profit since the start, we also know the game is making more money, it's only logical to conclude it's also making more profit too.

It's also a pretty irrelevant discussion as none of us are actually investors and it has no bearing on our experience of the game (or the express topic of Surtr for that matter) outside of when the game inevitably does start to slow down and we lose access to it.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Jotari

[Icelerate]

Heroes has generated over 400 million in revenue. https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/93qm2l/fire_emblem_heroes_surpasses_400_million_in/

 

[XRay]

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Nintendo rarely disclose their profits or sales (because really why should they?).

I am not sure about Japanese regulations, but in the United States, publicly traded corporations are required by law to release their financial statements.

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's also a safe bet that the cost of production has not significantly increased between last year and this year,

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

it's only logical to conclude it's also making more profit too.

That is the type of assumption I do not want to make.

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

none of us are actually investors

I am currently invested in General Electric and fossil fuel ETFs. I want to invest in gaming companies, but most are private, and I have not done enough research yet on investing in foreign gaming companies.

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

it has no bearing on our experience of the game (or the express topic of Surtr for that matter)

If the game is raining gold for Nintendo, players ought to demand compensation loyalty Orbs for being such good customers.

Surtr can be part of the loyalty reward package with the Orbs. That way, we can force Surtr to fight in the Training Tower and watch him die.

13 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Heroes has generated over 400 million in revenue. https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/93qm2l/fire_emblem_heroes_surpasses_400_million_in/

See the following:

6 hours ago, XRay said:

Revenue is not the same as profit. Revenue could be sky high and it would mean nothing if expenses are just as high. Without more information to go on, I am not convinced Heroes is that big of a money maker. I would not be surprised if their use of the phrase "strong net profits" is nothing more than puffery to keep shareholders from complaining; "strong" is pretty meaningless without numbers to back it up, and revenue numbers by itself is not enough. My gut tells me something is fishy if they are focusing so much on bragging about their huge revenue numbers instead of detaling their profit margin.

What I want are detailed financial statements, specifically a segmented income statement, and Nintendo has not released any of that to my knowledge. The numbers I see on Yahoo Finance is helpful in determining whether the company as a whole is healthy, but it tells me absolutely nothing about how each venture of the company is doing. As far as I know, Heroes could be making just enough profit to keep upper management satisfied, and it is not raining money.

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by XRay

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, XRay said:

I am currently invested in General Electric and fossil fuel ETFs. I want to invest in gaming companies, but most are private, and I have not done enough research yet on investing in foreign gaming companies

Good for you, but I meant investors in Nintendo and Fire Emblem Heroes specifically. Point being, this is a derail. If you want to make a thread about Heroes' profits then go for it. But let's keep things focused on Surtr and Surtr like characters. We've already got one admin warning for derailment.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Jotari

[XRay]

27 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Good for you, but I meant investors in Nintendo and Fire Emblem Heroes specifically. Point being, this is a derail. If you want to make a thread about Heroes' profits then go for it. But let's keep things focused on Surtr and Surtr like characters. We've already got one admin warning for derailment.

Yeah, I should probably use the PM function more often instead, since I am not sure all derails deserve its own topic.

— — — — — — —

Anyways, back to Surtr, if we get him as a playable character in the future, what do you expect from his dialogues? And do you think it will improve him as a character?

I expect his dialogue to be a little boring like Legions since Surtr is kind of one note character who just burns stuff. To improve him as a character, I want to the dialogue to go deeper into his relationships with his daughters and maybe even Loki too. Something along the lines of FV!F!Robin's and FH!M!Robin's dialogues will vastly improve Surtr's characterization. If the dialogue is good, I hope it reinforces how detestable he is, or maybe even it will let us sympathize with him a little bit. To make him more detestable, he simply needs to bash his daughters more and be super arrogant. To make him more sympathetic, I am not sure how that is going to happen.

Edited September 18, 2018 by XRay

[Tenzen12]

Legion is everything but boring. That aside given that Grima out of all people got some fun lines I don't see why be pesimistic with Sutr either. If nothing else it should be impossible avoid memes from getting born.

Not that I think we will get him playablel in first place though.

[Zangetsu]

So my 2 cents on Surtr isn't really that different from everyone else but out of all character in Fire Emblem, he's the only character I genuinely despise.

 

I often wonder how much I'm supposed to hate a villain. It's not a fair comparison to be sure, but I love Freeza because how unapologetic evil he is. There's this charisma he has I'm never really sure how to describe. But I think the main reason why Freeza is one of my favorite villains of all times is because how much I enjoy seeing him lose. I remember how cathartic it was to see this seemingly invincible villain not just be knock down a peg but to be continuously humiliated & ultimately lose.

Surtr never once ignited any of those feelings. Yes, it's unfair to compare a mobile cutscenes to an anime, but all his action were just umimpressive. I don't care about his character, motivation, or anything like that, I want to have some sort of enjoyment in fighting this villain, but that never happens. Book 2 was always about running away from him whenever he was on screen & that got stale by the 3rd time & just flat out redundant. By then I was just looking forward onto finally killing without his almost literal plot armor. Him killing Gunthra was when I started to hate him. At 1st I blame that on poor writing but him appearing out of nowhere just Gunthra can die was just irritating, but now I supposed I have to look forward in finally defeating him. By CH.10 I just hated him period. All that months of build up just to find out that he was immortal. Surtr's power was being invulnerable & immortal, that is something a 12 years old would come up with. He worn out his welcome by then I just stop caring & I wanted the story to end. But it didn't, it went on for another 4 months & I was so tired by then. And by the time it was finally time to kill him off it was anti climatic as it could get. The final speech the heroes gave to Surtr was basically "you big bully". But his death was just so damn boring. He dies & that's it. Nothing happens, he just dies. To make matters so much worse than they had to be, he takes 2 likeable character with him. And the story keeps setting him up like he's supposed to be ultimate villain. Like he's supposed to more powerful than Grima, Medeus, Ashera, Lopotous, etc. But he never gave me that feeling once. On top of that, nothing convince that someone like Ike couldn't just beat him without his literal plot armor. His only saving grace is his design & that's where it stops. I honestly thought at the time Garon would be lowest main antagonist bar the Fire Emblem franchise could set & then Surtr came along.

 

So yeah, that's my 2 cents on him

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Zangetsu said:

And by the time it was finally time to kill him off it was anti climatic as it could get. The final speech the heroes gave to Surtr was basically "you big bully". But his death was just so damn boring. He dies & that's it. Nothing happens, he just dies. To make matters so much worse than they had to be, he takes 2 likeable character with him. And the story keeps setting him up like he's supposed to be ultimate villain. Like he's supposed to more powerful than Grima, Medeus, Ashera, Lopotous, etc. But he never gave me that feeling once.

I think the story is setting up Múspellflame to be powerful, and that is what we are running away from, not Surtr who we are hunting. Fjorm does not even break a sweat in the final fight and tells it to him straight that he is pathetically weak.

[Tenzen12]

I don't think Sutr and Muspelflame  is something that should be though separately. You don't say that Superman  is patheticaly weak when deprived of his photosynthesis powers do you?

As for reason why Fjorm won easily it wasn't probably because he is that weak without flame, but simply because she had higher moral ground.

[XRay]

3 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

I don't think Sutr and Muspelflame  is something that should be though separately. You don't say that Superman  is patheticaly weak when deprived of his photosynthesis powers do you?

As for reason why Fjorm won easily it wasn't probably because he is that weak without flame, but simply because she had higher moral ground.

Superman's powers are part of Superman, and it is what makes him Superman. Múspellflame is not intrinsically part of Surtr.

If having a higher moral ground is all it takes to defeat Surtr, we would not be running away from Múspellflame and trying to snuff it out the whole time.

[Tenzen12]

It was integral  part of him possibly for majority of his life. And it required very complicated procedure to deprive him of that. Compared to that getting few green rocks doesn't look like big deal. 

And yes Fjorm trash talking Sutr wasn't really anything but bragging, hardly related to Sutr actual power as fighter. Don't forget it wasn't duel, but straight down ganging up on him that allowed us win.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Tenzen12 said:

And it required very complicated procedure to deprive him of that. Compared to that getting few green rocks doesn't look like big deal. 

I would argue the opposite. Múspellflame needs a complicated ritual to maintain by offering lots of sacrifices frequently. All we did was deprive him of sacrifices and he could not activate Múspellflame.

1 hour ago, Tenzen12 said:

And yes Fjorm trash talking Sutr wasn't really anything but bragging, hardly related to Sutr actual power as fighter.

It was not bragging. If a man cannot even outsmart and outfight a group of teenagers/young adults with an army behind his back, Surtr's actual power is pathetic at best.

1 hour ago, Tenzen12 said:

Don't forget it wasn't duel, but straight down ganging up on him that allowed us win.

We did not gang up on him, he ganged up on us. He sent an army to track us down. Assuming Kiran is a whale, the Order would at most have 1,100 soldiers, which is no where near the size of an army. Even on the final map, he was able to deploy more units than us.

[Tenzen12]

Yes we first defeated his army and then on him. And we could do it only because Sutr go betrayed by his own. It's pretty hard "outwit" group people when they suddenly appear behind your back with smug Loki. 

[NekoKnight]

5 hours ago, Zangetsu said:

I often wonder how much I'm supposed to hate a villain. It's not a fair comparison to be sure, but I love Freeza because how unapologetic evil he is. There's this charisma he has I'm never really sure how to describe. But I think the main reason why Freeza is one of my favorite villains of all times is because how much I enjoy seeing him lose. I remember how cathartic it was to see this seemingly invincible villain not just be knock down a peg but to be continuously humiliated & ultimately lose.

Surtr never once ignited any of those feelings. Yes, it's unfair to compare a mobile cutscenes to an anime, but all his action were just umimpressive. I don't care about his character, motivation, or anything like that, I want to have some sort of enjoyment in fighting this villain, but that never happens.

Agreed with this. One can experience a lot of catharsis from seeing a truly vile villain get their comeuppance, I felt nothing when Surtr died. I was just relieved the story was over. I think there are a number of factors that went wrong

1. Surtr is extremely one note, even as pure evil characters go. We don't know anything about his past or motivations. He just wants to destroy and make people suffer, and that's all he can remind us of when he's on screen.
2. Surtr has frustrating plot powers. Things just happen in the plot regardless of our actions, which makes the heroes' journey just feel insignificant. Surtr magically knows where Gunnthra is and teleports there, wasting all the time we spent looking for her. Surtr's god mode has two layers, making all the time we spent getting the Rite of Frost feel wasted. The entirely of Book II is the heroes running away and failing at everything they do until they get to the final chapter and win because the story has to end.
3. None of the heroes are really interesting enough for us to care about their plight. Fjorm is as flat as a piece of cardboard and she's the only emotional connection we have to the villain. I didn't care about her succeeding which made defeating the villain equally unengaging.
4. The FEH story moves at a snail's pace, taking months for significant developments to happen in the plot. This is not an excuse for why it can't be helped that the storytelling is unsatisfying, it's the reason why their storytelling needs changing. You CANNOT have such a flat, repetitive villain when it takes from weeks to months to get the next chapter. You CANNOT undo entire story arcs in a Book when it took us months to get there.

Let's talk about a villain who is told much better. Spoilers for the Winterfell story in Game of Thrones.
Ramsey Bolton is one of the most depraved villains in the entire story. He tortures and murders people in horrific ways, mostly for his own pleasure. If that was all there was to him, he'd quickly grow stale and utterly detestable in and outside of the show. But what sells the character is the varied ways he demonstrates his cruelty and cunning, as well as understanding the drive and purpose behind those actions. The foes he faces are sympathetic and interesting in their own ways as well, so when Ramsey is finally defeated, we were looking forward to it, and it felt damn good seeing him die.

The moral of the story is, satisfaction with a villain necessitates making the viewer care about what's going on. 

[Jotari]

On 9/20/2018 at 10:42 PM, Tenzen12 said:

I don't think Sutr and Muspelflame  is something that should be though separately. You don't say that Superman  is patheticaly weak when deprived of his photosynthesis powers do you?

As for reason why Fjorm won easily it wasn't probably because he is that weak without flame, but simply because she had higher moral ground.

Saying Marth is weak without his sword would be a better equivalent. The flames are obviously a tool of his, but like every fighting character uses tools aside from straight up Hulk like brawlers.

22 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Agreed with this. One can experience a lot of catharsis from seeing a truly vile villain get their comeuppance, I felt nothing when Surtr died. I was just relieved the story was over. I think there are a number of factors that went wrong

1. Surtr is extremely one note, even as pure evil characters go. We don't know anything about his past or motivations. He just wants to destroy and make people suffer, and that's all he can remind us of when he's on screen.
2. Surtr has frustrating plot powers. Things just happen in the plot regardless of our actions, which makes the heroes' journey just feel insignificant. Surtr magically knows where Gunnthra is and teleports there, wasting all the time we spent looking for her. Surtr's god mode has two layers, making all the time we spent getting the Rite of Frost feel wasted. The entirely of Book II is the heroes running away and failing at everything they do until they get to the final chapter and win because the story has to end.
3. None of the heroes are really interesting enough for us to care about their plight. Fjorm is as flat as a piece of cardboard and she's the only emotional connection we have to the villain. I didn't care about her succeeding which made defeating the villain equally unengaging.
4. The FEH story moves at a snail's pace, taking months for significant developments to happen in the plot. This is not an excuse for why it can't be helped that the storytelling is unsatisfying, it's the reason why their storytelling needs changing. You CANNOT have such a flat, repetitive villain when it takes from weeks to months to get the next chapter. You CANNOT undo entire story arcs in a Book when it took us months to get there.

Let's talk about a villain who is told much better. Spoilers for the Winterfell story in Game of Thrones.
Ramsey Bolton is one of the most depraved villains in the entire story. He tortures and murders people in horrific ways, mostly for his own pleasure. If that was all there was to him, he'd quickly grow stale and utterly detestable in and outside of the show. But what sells the character is the varied ways he demonstrates his cruelty and cunning, as well as understanding the drive and purpose behind those actions. The foes he faces are sympathetic and interesting in their own ways as well, so when Ramsey is finally defeated, we were looking forward to it, and it felt damn good seeing him die.

The moral of the story is, satisfaction with a villain necessitates making the viewer care about what's going on. 

I actually think that's one of the things they really messed up with Ramsey in the show. He kind of became a Mary Sue of the writers and just kept winning for basically no reason. In the book, although we haven't seen his demise yet, we have a much better reason as to why he should be beaten. His outright monstrous behavior loses him the trust and loyalty of his allies and ends up facing dissension no matter how much he tries to use fear as a weapon. In the show he just acts like a dick to everyone and suffers no repercussions until eventually the right hero just happens to beat him.

[omegaxis1]

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Saying Marth is weak without his sword would be a better equivalent. The flames are obviously a tool of his, but like every fighting character uses tools aside from straight up Hulk like brawlers.

1

You fool. Marth would beat anyone that is foolish enough to challenge him. 

 

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You fool. Marth would beat anyone that is foolish enough to challenge him. 

 

Ah. Of course. How could I forget about Marth's totally canon psychic powers.

[omegaxis1]

57 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Ah. Of course. How could I forget about Marth's totally canon psychic powers.

Real talk though, the only one that ever is known to have fought barehanded is Camus, having beaten Midia when he was unarmed.

[bottlegnomes]

46 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Real talk though, the only one that ever is known to have fought barehanded is Camus, having beaten Midia when he was unarmed.

Requisite generalized reminder that in lore Camus is Ike/Gawain/BK-level strong; he just isn't a show-off about it.

Edited September 21, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[omegaxis1]

26 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Requisite generalized reminder that in lore Camus is Ike/Gawain/BK-level strong; he just isn't a show-off about it.

I am aware. Wrote a thread about it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/84f5yr/fire_emblem_power_level_analysis_camus/

[bottlegnomes]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

I am aware. Wrote a thread about it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/84f5yr/fire_emblem_power_level_analysis_camus/

Sorry, wasn't directed at you. Just a chance for me to fanboy for Camus to the general populace. I think I actually read your post a while back.

[NekoKnight]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

I actually think that's one of the things they really messed up with Ramsey in the show. He kind of became a Mary Sue of the writers and just kept winning for basically no reason. In the book, although we haven't seen his demise yet, we have a much better reason as to why he should be beaten. His outright monstrous behavior loses him the trust and loyalty of his allies and ends up facing dissension no matter how much he tries to use fear as a weapon. In the show he just acts like a dick to everyone and suffers no repercussions until eventually the right hero just happens to beat him.

I agree with this, partially. In the show, he has the infamous shirtless scene (when Yara tries to rescue Theon) and his "twenty good men", which could be considered plot armor. His raid on Stannis' camp struct me as the most bullshit moment in the writing, but the subsequent battle (Stannis' army was in terrible shape for a myriad of reasons) felt realistic. Roose Bolton said it rightly when he chided Ramsey for being overconfident after "mowing down tired Baratheons". I don't think these moments compare to Surtr's teleportation or "JK I actually have two layers of invulnerability". Concerning the Winterfell politics cut from the show, I don't think they are needed to explain why Ramsey loses. Jon wasn't "the right hero who just happens to beat him". Ramsey loses because he didn't anticipate the knights of the Vale showing up (and everything leading up to that was Ramsey pissing off a lot of people leading to Jon and Sansa rallying armies to defeat him).

More than his physical feats, however, the point about Ramsey I want to stress is that I never grew tired of him, and his villainy made me more invested in seeing him fall rather than just eager to see the story end.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I agree with this, partially. In the show, he has the infamous shirtless scene (when Yara tries to rescue Theon) and his "twenty good men", which could be considered plot armor. His raid on Stannis' camp struct me as the most bullshit moment in the writing, but the subsequent battle (Stannis' army was in terrible shape for a myriad of reasons) felt realistic. Roose Bolton said it rightly when he chided Ramsey for being overconfident after "mowing down tired Baratheons". I don't think these moments compare to Surtr's teleportation or "JK I actually have two layers of invulnerability". Concerning the Winterfell politics cut from the show, I don't think they are needed to explain why Ramsey loses. Jon wasn't "the right hero who just happens to beat him". Ramsey loses because he didn't anticipate the knights of the Vale showing up (and everything leading up to that was Ramsey pissing off a lot of people leading to Jon and Sansa rallying armies to defeat him).

More than his physical feats, however, the point about Ramsey I want to stress is that I never grew tired of him, and his villainy made me more invested in seeing him fall rather than just eager to see the story end.

Well what's unbelievable is that Stannis would still try to attack Winterfell if his forces were so completely destroyed. If he couldn't beat them in an open field battle like that, there's no way he would have beaten them in a protracted siege with winter coming. As for Ramsay's ultimate defeat, it's believable if you accept that the Knights of the Vale can teleport, but I suppose that's just foreshadowing for how monstrously bad the travel times become in the next season. But the declining quality of Game if Thrones is another derail, on topic I do agree that even show Ramsay is better than Surtr.

[Zangetsu]

On 9/20/2018 at 6:21 AM, XRay said:

I think the story is setting up Múspellflame to be powerful, and that is what we are running away from, not Surtr who we are hunting. Fjorm does not even break a sweat in the final fight and tells it to him straight that he is pathetically weak.

That was also kinda the problem. The Múspellflame was so annoying to deal with it that you figure it would satisfying to finally nullify it. Instead, "JK I'm also immortal". That was just flat out stupid.

On 9/20/2018 at 10:57 AM, NekoKnight said:

Agreed with this. One can experience a lot of catharsis from seeing a truly vile villain get their comeuppance, I felt nothing when Surtr died. I was just relieved the story was over. I think there are a number of factors that went wrong

1. Surtr is extremely one note, even as pure evil characters go. We don't know anything about his past or motivations. He just wants to destroy and make people suffer, and that's all he can remind us of when he's on screen.

I'm sorry, but I just don't care if he's one noted. Being a mobile game (not I'm condoning mind you) I was more than ready for some one noted characters & especially in the antagonist's case. Surtr somehow manage set bar even lower than that. If anything, that should have been why cathartic to end him, but it wasn't. Which you already stated, but I'm just more or less agreeing.

 

On 9/20/2018 at 10:57 AM, NekoKnight said:

2. Surtr has frustrating plot powers. Things just happen in the plot regardless of our actions, which makes the heroes' journey just feel insignificant. Surtr magically knows where Gunnthra is and teleports there, wasting all the time we spent looking for her. Surtr's god mode has two layers, making all the time we spent getting the Rite of Frost feel wasted. The entirely of Book II is the heroes running away and failing at everything they do until they get to the final chapter and win because the story has to end.

That's the main problem with Surtr overall. Everything keeps working out for him when it never even had to begin with. Him knowing where Gunnthra was never made any damn sense. And again, conveniently he's immortal. Friggin christ, that Grima's immortality looks fair in comparison.

 

On 9/20/2018 at 10:57 AM, NekoKnight said:

3. None of the heroes are really interesting enough for us to care about their plight. Fjorm is as flat as a piece of cardboard and she's the only emotional connection we have to the villain. I didn't care about her succeeding which made defeating the villain equally unengaging.

I'm going to have disagree with this. While Fjorm isn't going to be a favorite for anybody any time soon, I did sympathize her. If only because how much I hate Surtr now & that was enough for me to care for her. It still incredibly stupid how the story was hellbent on making her life depressing in the most immature & edgy way as possible.

 

On 9/20/2018 at 10:57 AM, NekoKnight said:

4. The FEH story moves at a snail's pace, taking months for significant developments to happen in the plot. This is not an excuse for why it can't be helped that the storytelling is unsatisfying, it's the reason why their storytelling needs changing. You CANNOT have such a flat, repetitive villain when it takes from weeks to months to get the next chapter. You CANNOT undo entire story arcs in a Book when it took us months to get there.

The 2nd main problem. By CH.10 I wanted the story to end, but I had to wait months for it to finish. I try not to care, but I already too commit at this point.

 

On 9/20/2018 at 10:57 AM, NekoKnight said:

Let's talk about a villain who is told much better. Spoilers for the Winterfell story in Game of Thrones.
Ramsey Bolton is one of the most depraved villains in the entire story. He tortures and murders people in horrific ways, mostly for his own pleasure. If that was all there was to him, he'd quickly grow stale and utterly detestable in and outside of the show. But what sells the character is the varied ways he demonstrates his cruelty and cunning, as well as understanding the drive and purpose behind those actions. The foes he faces are sympathetic and interesting in their own ways as well, so when Ramsey is finally defeated, we were looking forward to it, and it felt damn good seeing him die.

I'll just take your word on that. I could never commit to GOT, it's just looks too exhausting to handle.

 

On 9/20/2018 at 10:57 AM, NekoKnight said:

The moral of the story is, satisfaction with a villain necessitates making the viewer care about what's going on. 

TL;DR: I agree with 3 out 4 of your reasons.

[NekoKnight]

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well what's unbelievable is that Stannis would still try to attack Winterfell if his forces were so completely destroyed.

I believe in the books one character suggests that he wait out the winter at the wall because the snows were getting bad but he was adamantly against it as he would only get weaker as his enemies grew stronger. Stannis was reduced to a beggar after Blackwater and with winter threatening to wipe out his army, it seems in character that by the time they were getting close to Winterfell, they would win or die.

7 hours ago, Zangetsu said:

I'm going to have disagree with this. While Fjorm isn't going to be a favorite for anybody any time soon, I did sympathize her. If only because how much I hate Surtr now & that was enough for me to care for her. It still incredibly stupid how the story was hellbent on making her life depressing in the most immature & edgy way as possible.

The main issue I had with Fjorm was that her character was entirely defined by what happens to her rather than who she is. Despite being the mascot of Book II, we hear so little about her own personality. Most of her lines are devoted to exposition or reacting to Surtr's (see, we're on topic) latest dickery. At one point Anna actually has to report that Fjorm acts differently when speaking about Surtr, like we couldn't understand the most basic part of her character unless the game pointed it out. It goes to show how little we really saw of her.

Giving Fjorm more character depth would make me more invested in seeing Surtr fall. What will Fjorm do after the war? Is her obsession with revenge leading her to forget who she is? What was life like back in Nifl? What was the relationship between Nifl and Muspell before Surtr showed up? Ultimately nothing matters and she'll die soon.