Surtr is my favorite Heroes OC, fight me

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

You know, it'd probably destroy his character, but I still think I'd love it if Loki turned out to be Loptyr.

It wouldn't be the first time Loptyr took on an seductive form, just ask Svaðilfari (whose name has yet to be used in FEH- this must be corrected!).

If Loki was Loptyr, then suddenly it'd tie Loki to the Archanea-Jugdrali-Valentian-Ylissean world. Whatever explanation they could give, I'd expect it'd run roughshod over the lore of at least one continent.

[Rex Glacies]

3 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

Also how could you not enjoy 8-Dimensional-1080-Degree-Upside-Down-Reverse-Backgammon-Pong-In-Space? Clearly you need to spend more time with @Rex Glacies, that's one of the games he really excels at.

Oh, yes, that is a fun one. I won the regionals in my home dimension before being vanquished by the 7 legged snakes of an alternate universe.

But as for the topic, I'll echo what others have mentioned about Surtr being a better Garon. He doesn't have any sympathetic qualities, and he was never supposed to. He just wants to burn things down, and cause the most pain to everyone he can. As such.. he's boring. But further circumstances do make this more interesting. His taunting of Alfonse was able to make him hateable, and any character that can invoke emotions from the audience is well done, in my opinion, even if it's hate. Furthermore, his daughters and Helbindi are a good foil... basically making him the exact thing Garon and Fates was supposed to have done, which most people agreed was a good idea in theory, simply not in practice. As such, I say he fulfills the purpose he exists for, but I wouldn't go to say he's my favorite or anything.

[bottlegnomes]

4 minutes ago, Rex Glacies said:

But as for the topic, I'll echo what others have mentioned about Surtr being a better Garon. He doesn't have any sympathetic qualities, and he was never supposed to. He just wants to burn things down, and cause the most pain to everyone he can. As such.. he's boring. But further circumstances do make this more interesting. His taunting of Alfonse was able to make him hateable, and any character that can invoke emotions from the audience is well done, in my opinion, even if it's hate. Furthermore, his daughters and Helbindi are a good foil... basically making him the exact thing Garon and Fates was supposed to have done, which most people agreed was a good idea in theory, simply not in practice. As such, I say he fulfills the purpose he exists for, but I wouldn't go to say he's my favorite or anything.

Speaking of his kids and Helbindi, ugh. I can't stand Laevatein; she's just so bland. Her biggest accomplishment has been being coached through decision making by Laegjarn. She basically exists so Laegjarn doesn't have to talk all the time and probably to get killed in place of either Yrid and/or Veronica. Helbindi is the ultimate example of appealing to the audience through easy sympathy. I think he's kind of a fun character, like a more antagonistic Gonzales, but because he has a sister we know nothing about and never even saw, we're supposed to feel bad for him. Laegjarn is by far my favorite Heroes OC and I'm fully willing to admit that a large chunk of that is due to her design. She's a Camus with decent enough justifications, wanting to protect her sister and what people of her kingdom she can, but she's not exactly Faulknerian in her nuance. Heck, I'd argue Camus, who gets a hell of a lot of flak, is a more fully realized character.

[Vaximillian]

3 hours ago, XRay said:

Gunnthrá did nothing wrong!

Of course she did nothing wrong.

Because she did nothing.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

It wouldn't be the first time Loptyr took on an seductive form, just ask Svaðilfari (whose name has yet to be used in FEH- this must be corrected!).

If Loki was Loptyr, then suddenly it'd tie Loki to the Archanea-Jugdrali-Valentian-Ylissean world. Whatever explanation they could give, I'd expect it'd run roughshod over the lore of at least one continent.

I don't think it would upset that much continuity considering we know basically nothing about the real, original Loptyr. Just that he fought Naga and met Galle. Was he the king of the earth dragons or just a lowly soldier? Was he a shadow dragon originally and what even is a shadow dragon? Did he die when blood bonding with Galle? Or did he degenerate? Did he survive and at the same time Galle was ruling Jugdral a loptry dragon was hiding from Naga in a cave in Arkaneia somewhere? We know crippling little about him (if it's even a him) aside from what his basic personality is based on Julius's actions. What happened to him before and after meeting Galle is a completely open book.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Jotari

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Vaximillian said:

Of course she did nothing wrong.

Because she did nothing.

She appeared in my dreams!

[Humanoid]

I think she did her hair wrong.

[redlight]

What if Loki is Xane?

[Tybrosion]

3 hours ago, Vaximillian said:

Of course she did nothing wrong.

Because she did nothing.

Damn, you somehow burned her even more thoroughly than Surtr. I wholeheartedly approve.

[Jotari]

22 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

What if Loki is Xane?

That...wouldn't not make sense.

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

That...wouldn't not make sense.

Would not not make sense? So it would make sense! 

Xane just somehow degenerated despite giving up his dragonstone. Or maybe this is a Xane who experienced some terrible trauma that forever changed him permanently to the core. Perhaps humanity in his world was so bad he actually sided with Medeus, only to watch Marth defeat Medeus for good, and for humanity afterwards to independently of Marth kill off every other Manakete. The last of his species, shaken by the hate and avarice of others, he took disguise to hide himself, and then finding a way to leave his world, decided on living an existence of callous hedonism and fun throughout the multiverse. He cares not about how it ruins and hurts others, given all the ruin he has seen in his life, sympathy he is no longer capable of, but revenge is something he has given up on, deeming that hopeless.

 

And as for your little question of "What is a Shadow Dragon?",  I think you and I already should know the answer. A Shadow Dragon is just an Earth Dragon whose power levels via hatred, rage, and actual power, have been amped up to a certain magnitude that causes a physiological transformation. Whereas Divine Dragons occur naturally, Shadow Dragons are artificial, no one being born that way. Maybe other Dragon species can go Shadow Dragon, maybe Bantu or Tiki could given enough darkness and hate, but we don't know, given the only two Shadow Dragons there are in Archan-Val-Dral are Earths.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer

[Etrurian emperor]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

You know, it'd probably destroy his character, but I still think I'd love it if Loki turned out to be Loptyr.

Probably not since Loptyr is a villain most Western fans never heard of and from a continent that generally got ignored before Heroes. Unless they would reveal such a connection along with a Genealogy remake it would be odd to tie Loki to a poorly known  villain. 

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Probably not since Loptyr is a villain most Western fans never heard of and from a continent that generally got ignored before Heroes. Unless they would reveal such a connection along with a Genealogy remake it would be odd to tie Loki to a poorly known  villain. 

Hey, I didn't say it was in any way likely, just that I'd probably like it if they did it. Though I don't think people not knowing who Loptyr is would be much of a problem. After all, the fact that we know so little about him means there's actually very little to connect. It would basically just be the name and a reveal that she's a dragon with a hatred for humanity. People who'd never heard of Loptyr probably wouldn't even know it's a preestablished character.

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And as for your little question of "What is a Shadow Dragon?",  I think you and I already should know the answer. A Shadow Dragon is just an Earth Dragon whose power levels via hatred, rage, and actual power, have been amped up to a certain magnitude that causes a physiological transformation. Whereas Divine Dragons occur naturally, Shadow Dragons are artificial, no one being born that way. Maybe other Dragon species can go Shadow Dragon, maybe Bantu or Tiki could given enough darkness and hate, but we don't know, given the only two Shadow Dragons there are in Archan-Val-Dral are Earths.

Well like, maybe, but as far as the games provided there's absolutely no information. Medeus is just a Dark Dragon without explanation. The closest we get is Gotoh saying Medeus is changing his form as he sleeps, but how, why or why he wasn't during the War of Shadows (where he isn't a Dark Dragon despite those games being called Shadow Dragon) when he apparently was in Anri's time is. Even the belief that a Dark Dragon is more powerful than an Earth Dragon is speculative (even his in game stats don't really support that, of course gameplay story segregation he is the final boss in both games with similar statlines). Gotoh says Medeus will become a fearful Dark Dragon, but that might just mean he's more dangerous as he seems less intelligent.

[Karimlan]

12 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

it looks like Loki's got a pretty solid hard-on for the Summoner to me

*italics mine*

Oh please say it isn't so~ loljk

I'm not at all frustrated with Surtr, although from a story standpoint, he should be getting his just desserts by the end of Book II.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Karimlan

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Well like, maybe, but as far as the games provided there's absolutely no information. Medeus is just a Dark Dragon without explanation. The closest we get is Gotoh saying Medeus is changing his form as he sleeps, but how, why or why he wasn't during the War of Shadows (where he isn't a Dark Dragon despite those games being called Shadow Dragon) when he apparently was in Anri's time is. Even the belief that a Dark Dragon is more powerful than an Earth Dragon is speculative (even his in game stats don't really support that, of course gameplay story segregation he is the final boss in both games with similar statlines). Gotoh says Medeus will become a fearful Dark Dragon, but that might just mean he's more dangerous as he seems less intelligent.

SD makes it clear that Medeus isn't back at full power yet, which is why he can only maintain dragon form in Dolhr Keep. Having never died before during Anri's time, Medeus was at full power, a Shadow Dragon. It was in Anri's time that Medeus got his epithet, humans carried it over to him in Marth's, not knowing that Medeus had weakened and could no longer claim the title for the time being.

Why Medeus is stronger in Mystery over SD, despite having been resurrected for a shorter time, I would imagine might have something to do with the maidens sacrifice and being at the Dragon's Table. 

[omegaxis1]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

SD makes it clear that Medeus isn't back at full power yet, which is why he can only maintain dragon form in Dolhr Keep. Having never died before during Anri's time, Medeus was at full power, a Shadow Dragon. It was in Anri's time that Medeus got his epithet, humans carried it over to him in Marth's, not knowing that Medeus had weakened and could no longer claim the title for the time being.

Why Medeus is stronger in Mystery over SD, despite having been resurrected for a shorter time, I would imagine might have something to do with the maidens sacrifice and being at the Dragon's Table. 

The Medeus in New Mystery is stronger than Medeus was in both in SD and back in his prime. However, even at that level, he was not fully resurrected, as he had not yet harnessed the life essence of the four maidens. Some argue that the Shadow/Dark Dragon is basically an Earth Dragon attaining the power of a Divine Dragon. 

Divine Dragons are NEVER depicted at full strength. They are always handicapped. So it makes sense that the Dark Dragon Medeus would be handicapped as well, not being fully revived and thus not at full power.

[bottlegnomes]

I always took Medeus's moniker of Dark Dragon to be just that. When he was the "Dark Dragon" he was still an earth dragon, just big, scary, and mean, same way Hardin was the "Dark Emperor." Speaking of Hardin, does anyone else find it weird how he grew like a foot and gained about 100 lbs of muscle just from the Dark Sphere?

Edited September 9, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Karimlan]

The Dark Sphere is really just an ethereal protein shake mix, then. XD

[omegaxis1]

32 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

I always took Medeus's moniker of Dark Dragon to be just that. When he was the "Dark Dragon" he was still an earth dragon, just big, scary, and mean, same way Hardin was the "Dark Emperor." Speaking of Hardin, does anyone else find it weird how he grew like a foot and gained about 100 lbs of muscle just from the Dark Sphere?

I think before, the Shadow Dragon was just the moniker. But by New Mystery, Medeus became a true Shadow Dragon.

As for why Hardin looks like he got bigger, he's simply wearing bulkier armor. 

[RexBolt]

24 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I think before, the Shadow Dragon was just the moniker. But by New Mystery, Medeus became a true Shadow Dragon.

As for why Hardin looks like he got bigger, he's simply wearing bulkier armor. 

He created a horrendous fashion that would plague the world for millenia. Truly the greatest evil of all!

[SoulWeaver]

As long as we're all off-Topic, here's a slightly crazy thought I had today:
What if The Tempest is related to The Boundless Chaos? This would mean that Loki's Tempest shenanigans are actually accomplishing something, and explains why Shade, Emma, Yuzu, RandalLando, Alice, Valjean, and Nieve are all not part of CYL - they're secretly already Heroes OCs who haven't been officially added yet...WHICH IS WHERE BOOK 3 COMES IN!!!

...Yeah, I'm insane, I admit it, why do you ask?

[bottlegnomes]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

As for why Hardin looks like he got bigger, he's simply wearing bulkier armor. 

True. I was looking through art and I guess he's just a more burly man than I realized. I always thought he was closer to like Cain/Abel physique, but looks like he was always actually closer to Draug, Ogma.

[omegaxis1]

57 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

True. I was looking through art and I guess he's just a more burly man than I realized. I always thought he was closer to like Cain/Abel physique, but looks like he was always actually closer to Draug, Ogma.

Have you seen Marth's arms? The guy has the face of someone that is pure and innocent, just looking at those arms closer shows that Marth is seriously buff underneath that armor.

[Lewyn]

The Garon comparison is real good.  Surtr is him done right.  Instead of possession or whatever, he gave himself to the flame....he was probably a swell dad and family man before that.  I always found it ridiculous how Garon's kids say how nice a father he is and they follow everything he does, when he looks, speaks and acts like a super villain through and through.  

Current Surtr, even his kids acknowledge he is a merciless monster but seem to be following him out of fear.  This is at least a bit more believable.  Personally really dislike villains like Surtr, Garon, Jedah that look so obviously evil that it seems ridiculous for anyone to trust them or work with them in any capacity.  Sure Celica you can trust Jedah, just cause he sacrificed his own daughters to Duma to make them mindless husks and looks like a demon rather than a human, sure.