SRPG studio: seeking tips on how to improve dialogue

[DiogoJorge]

Basically, I want you to take a look at those and see how I can make the dialogue between characters better.

 

I can't quite put my finger on it, but some pieces of dialogue feel a bit off.

I feel like I'm making Roselia more anoying than funny, also can't help but feel like the ending of the chapter is a bit rushed with how sudden her mood changes.

What do you think can be improved?

I will probably post a 3rd video at a later time, but for now take into account those.

Anyway, on a unrelated note, the fact that the colors of their battle sprites match up with the characters is pure coincindence. I don't have the full version of SRPG studio yet, so it just happened that the motion color data for both Elvion and Roselia match with their appearance. 

Edited September 18, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[eclipse]

Can you consolidate this all into one project thread?

[DiogoJorge]

51 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Can you consolidate this all into one project thread?

I guess I could, but I'm not yet sure if I'm going to go anywhere with this project anytime soon, considering that I'm using the demo version for now and I'm still getting used to any other functions that I've yet to learn to use.

[Ertrick36]

Since this is still a prototype that doesn't seem to have any original assets I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but for that intro you really should have more going on than just a message box scrolling; think back to how previous FE's do an intro or chapter transition, and draw inspiration from those cinematics.  This actually ties a little bit into the writing; visualizing what happened in the civil war, and where locations are on a map, helps your audience digest the lore more easily than simple text exposition.

Anyway, here's some writing advice I'd have.

• Share the civil war story first instead of who is ruling the kingdom or even what the location is; no one will care about names or places until they get a taste of what has happened there before.  I'll post the transcript of FE7's opening as a reference of how a good intro is handled:

Spoiler

Once, dragons and men coexisted.  They shared a peace forged in wisdom, a peace that lasted many generations.  All that was lost when mankind disrupted this balance in a sudden onslaught.  Man fought dragon in a savage war that shook the foundations of their world.  This war was called The Scouring.  Defeated and humbled, dragons vanished from the realm.  In time, man rebuilt and spread his dominion across the land and on to the islands beyond.  A millenium has passed since those dark days ended.

And of course during this, there are scrolling images showing the war between mankind and the dragons.  Not once did it say that the continent is Elibe or who the rulers of the Lycian League are.  The opening is not meant to necessarily give the audience context, though some is not bad so long as it doesn't overshadow other elements of the intro.  An opening is meant to draw the audience in with something interesting.  And then - after the intro to that civil war is done - you can introduce the setting and big players.

Basically, talk about what has happened rather than what everything is.  Again, a legend is a better hook than "this is the king, and this is the continent".

• Don't make the characters have drawn out conversations during the battles themselves - most of the time, characters should only speak one or two lines upon their defeat.  Anything you want that character to say after their fight, you should have them say at the end of the chapter.  I'm mostly thinking of the bit at timestamp 5:29 of the first video; Elmson only really needs to speak the first line for this instance, and then he can say the rest at the end of the chapter when they're talking about the battle results.  Also, typically you will get, at most, two replies in a beginning battle conversation in FE games; character A will say something that will provoke character B to reply, and then that will provoke a final response from character A.  The main reason why this dialogue must be short (aside from the obvious "too much time has passed in this battle") is that people don't typically like the flow of gameplay being interrupted by long segments of dialogue or exposition, and in a battle that's pretty much right in the thick of the gameplay.
• I'm actually not all that annoyed by Roselia initially; I'm more annoyed by everyone telling her that she's being annoying or that she needs to stop talking (more on Elmson's front than Alfons's).  It's only once you got into the quest that she became grating; she acts like a child who's being asked what she wants to do and she's just replying "I dunno".  Before, she seemed more like a laid back, peppy knight who wanted to see some action.  I think instead of them talking about how there's nothing to do, Roselia should just mention the cave straight away.  Also, instead of Roselia pouting and glaring, she should ask once and then just go, saying it's nothing she can't handle.  That would be a funny way for her to trick Elvion into raiding the cave anyway.
• I like the touch of Roselia explaining her strengths and weaknesses; that's something I feel like FE games should do instead of leaving the player to learn the hard way what units are good for which roles.  And a base conversation is a perfect place to do that.  The only time I've seen FE do something similar is whenever they have to give the ol' Jeigan lecture.
• For the quest description, don't list the motivation for the mission as "Roselia's bored"; maybe instead, it should be "Roselia has an idea to break up the monotony of guard duty" or something akin to that.
• Roselia's mood changing in the quest's end isn't particularly bad, in my opinion.  A good character should be able to show a wide range of emotions; if they don't then they're little more than a gag or a gimmick.  Though maybe there should be more justification as to why she particularly thinks of Gabriel and Myria.  Perhaps the treasure itself reminds her of them, or something that Elvion did in particular.  I'd particularly go with the last one, with Elvion talking about how much of a waste of time the quest was, as a spark for her to get sentimental and remember the times they shared with the other two characters.  I'm not saying every little thing should have meaning or tie together in a symbolic way, but it's sensible to have something specific trigger subconscious memories rather than just out of nowhere "hey, let's talk".

All in all, there are places where the writing can be better, it's just not all in the places you may think they are.  At least, in my opinion.

[DiogoJorge]

1 hour ago, Ertrick36 said:

Since this is still a prototype that doesn't seem to have any original assets I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but for that intro you really should have more going on than just a message box scrolling; think back to how previous FE's do an intro or chapter transition, and draw inspiration from those cinematics.  This actually ties a little bit into the writing; visualizing what happened in the civil war, and where locations are on a map, helps your audience digest the lore more easily than simple text exposition.

Anyway, here's some writing advice I'd have.

• Share the civil war story first instead of who is ruling the kingdom or even what the location is; no one will care about names or places until they get a taste of what has happened there before.  I'll post the transcript of FE7's opening as a reference of how a good intro is handled:

  Reveal hidden contents

Once, dragons and men coexisted.  They shared a peace forged in wisdom, a peace that lasted many generations.  All that was lost when mankind disrupted this balance in a sudden onslaught.  Man fought dragon in a savage war that shook the foundations of their world.  This war was called The Scouring.  Defeated and humbled, dragons vanished from the realm.  In time, man rebuilt and spread his dominion across the land and on to the islands beyond.  A millenium has passed since those dark days ended.

And of course during this, there are scrolling images showing the war between mankind and the dragons.  Not once did it say that the continent is Elibe or who the rulers of the Lycian League are.  The opening is not meant to necessarily give the audience context, though some is not bad so long as it doesn't overshadow other elements of the intro.  An opening is meant to draw the audience in with something interesting.  And then - after the intro to that civil war is done - you can introduce the setting and big players.

Basically, talk about what has happened rather than what everything is.  Again, a legend is a better hook than "this is the king, and this is the continent".

• Don't make the characters have drawn out conversations during the battles themselves - most of the time, characters should only speak one or two lines upon their defeat.  Anything you want that character to say after their fight, you should have them say at the end of the chapter.  I'm mostly thinking of the bit at timestamp 5:29 of the first video; Elmson only really needs to speak the first line for this instance, and then he can say the rest at the end of the chapter when they're talking about the battle results.  Also, typically you will get, at most, two replies in a beginning battle conversation in FE games; character A will say something that will provoke character B to reply, and then that will provoke a final response from character A.  The main reason why this dialogue must be short (aside from the obvious "too much time has passed in this battle") is that people don't typically like the flow of gameplay being interrupted by long segments of dialogue or exposition, and in a battle that's pretty much right in the thick of the gameplay.
• I'm actually not all that annoyed by Roselia initially; I'm more annoyed by everyone telling her that she's being annoying or that she needs to stop talking (more on Elmson's front than Alfons's).  It's only once you got into the quest that she became grating; she acts like a child who's being asked what she wants to do and she's just replying "I dunno".  Before, she seemed more like a laid back, peppy knight who wanted to see some action.  I think instead of them talking about how there's nothing to do, Roselia should just mention the cave straight away.  Also, instead of Roselia pouting and glaring, she should ask once and then just go, saying it's nothing she can't handle.  That would be a funny way for her to trick Elvion into raiding the cave anyway.
• I like the touch of Roselia explaining her strengths and weaknesses; that's something I feel like FE games should do instead of leaving the player to learn the hard way what units are good for which roles.  And a base conversation is a perfect place to do that.  The only time I've seen FE do something similar is whenever they have to give the ol' Jeigan lecture.
• For the quest description, don't list the motivation for the mission as "Roselia's bored"; maybe instead, it should be "Roselia has an idea to break up the monotony of guard duty" or something akin to that.
• Roselia's mood changing in the quest's end isn't particularly bad, in my opinion.  A good character should be able to show a wide range of emotions; if they don't then they're little more than a gag or a gimmick.  Though maybe there should be more justification as to why she particularly thinks of Gabriel and Myria.  Perhaps the treasure itself reminds her of them, or something that Elvion did in particular.  I'd particularly go with the last one, with Elvion talking about how much of a waste of time the quest was, as a spark for her to get sentimental and remember the times they shared with the other two characters.  I'm not saying every little thing should have meaning or tie together in a symbolic way, but it's sensible to have something specific trigger subconscious memories rather than just out of nowhere "hey, let's talk".

All in all, there are places where the writing can be better, it's just not all in the places you may think they are.  At least, in my opinion.

Yes, SRPG studio's demo has limited resources, since you can't add original ones. Even if I had the full version, I don't think I would be able to draw a map for this, my drawing skills aren't good enough to draw one. The map that comes with the demo would probably function until I got something better, but I have no idea how to scroll that map, since it shows part of the map in the actual beggining, rather than the whole thing. 

.I see, I suppose I can make them shorter. What about making most of the message coming right after the battle? Instead of being at the end of the chapter?

. I was thinking of adding different expressions for that scene (Once I got the full version and added better mugshots to the project), but if you think the whole glare and pout scene is unecessary, now I'm unsure, I thought it was funny, but maybe I'm going overboard with that one.

.Yes, I suppose I could go with a better description as well.

. Yeah, I'm planning to do so for every character's debut chapter (assuming they didn't join midway in one, in which case, they will introduce themselves in the mission afterwards).

. It was mostly, because I felt it was a bit too sudden, I agree that she should express other emotions, but it felt like I was rushing it a bit. I guess I will go with memories of something Elvion did, since the amethyst they got doesn't really represent any of the characters.

Thanks for the input.

EDIT: Anyone knows how to zoom out the map? I figured out how to scroll it, but it only  shows a portion of it and I wanted to show the whole map.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Ertrick36]

12 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Yes, SRPG studio's demo has limited resources, since you can't add original ones. Even if I had the full version, I don't think I would be able to draw a map for this, my drawing skills aren't good enough to draw one. The map that comes with the demo would probably function until I got something better, but I have no idea how to scroll that map, since it shows part of the map in the actual beggining, rather than the whole thing. 

.I see, I suppose I can make them shorter. What about making most of the message coming right after the battle? Instead of being at the end of the chapter?

. I was thinking of adding different expressions for that scene (Once I got the full version and added better mugshots to the project), but if you think the whole glare and pout scene is unecessary, now I'm unsure, I thought it was funny, but maybe I'm going overboard with that one.

.Yes, I suppose I could go with a better description as well.

. Yeah, I'm planning to do so for every character's debut chapter (assuming they didn't join midway in one, in which case, they will introduce themselves in the mission afterwards).

. It was mostly, because I felt it was a bit too sudden, I agree that she should express other emotions, but it felt like I was rushing it a bit. I guess I will go with memories of something Elvion did, since the amethyst they got doesn't really represent any of the characters.

 

EDIT: Anyone knows how to zoom out the map? I figured out how to scroll it, but it only  shows a portion of it and I wanted to show the whole map.

- Usually, my art is a bunch of basic drafts done in GIMP.  A lot of the time I trace over custom models I posed in XNALara or other such things, and with maps I just make some random blops with blue surrounding and arctic poles.  I'll even go with chiptunes of a variety of songs instead of using the ones in the program at base.  I hate using default assets, even for a draft, they're only good as placeholders.  But that's just me.

- I'm just having a hard time visualizing someone talking a lot right after a heated battle when their partner still has to fight someone else.  I think at most, he should say "I'm done for now" and "You have my approval" (not verbatim this, obviously).  Formal congratulations always should happen after the tested completes all their trials.  I think back to how it's handled in New Mystery (not the best written game, but the training was good enough), and every "trainer" that's defeated in the prologue saved their formal congratulations until the chapter's end.  Even the showboat Luke only says one line after being defeated.  Of course I'm not saying you should copy FE in every which way, but there's a reason why it's always handled this way.

- Well, I'm someone who disdains that kind of stuff.  I see it as an "anime" moment, and also not particularly a behavior befitting a 20-something year-old knight addressing a superior, even if that superior is a close friend.  I think there are still ways to make her out to be cutely mischievous or displaying the relationship between the two characters without resorting to silly gags like that.  But again keep in mind that I'm a 23 year-old man who hates teenagers and doesn't care much for characters like that; I'm not sure if I'm even your target audience.  If you're trying to appeal to teens or those into cheesy anime stuff, they'll eat it right up.  But if you're trying to appeal to more "mature" audiences, the adults can't really act like that.  It also depends on the tone you're going for with the game; if it's relatively light-hearted, it's fine, but if it's a more serious story then that will clash.  For your average FE... it's probably fairly standard.  Just don't draw scenes out for too long with that kind of japery or do it too frequently, because jokes can get old fast.

- To add to my description advice, it seems that the description's going "out of the box" at times, so to speak.  Normally this sort of thing can be fixed in the "Game Layout" menus, but there aren't options for descriptions.  So either make them concise, one-line descriptions, or look into the scripts and find which ones control description layout parameters.  Or even change the UI itself so that the lettering does fit the box.

- I'm glad you are, just be sure people don't start saying the exact same things.  For example if someone else is also quick like Roselia, instead of them saying "I'm quite agile", they should say "No one's faster with a blade than me".  A thesaurus or thesaurus.com may be your best friend here.  You could also use these differences to your advantage, subtly hinting at just how good units are at different stats by how confident they are in said attributes (someone with a 90% speed growth could say the "no one's faster than me" line, while someone with a 60% speed growth may say what Roselia said).  Of course, that point is moot if you'll show the characters' stats anyway, but it's some interesting flavor that actually could serve a genuine purpose should you ever discard the showing of character stats.  It may also help if they talk about specific accomplishments if they have any such as "I outpaced even the Whitewing sisters" or "I withstood the brunt of King Zephiel's attacks", though such things would only be meaningful once you've become more familiar with the world and its characters.

- If you feel it's rushed, then maybe that is not the time for the characters to recollect on past events.  Perhaps that quest should just end with the characters saying "great, we found nothing" and Elvion should probably monologue about how even though she gets him into these messes he still can't help but like her.  I say trust your gut and take a moment to think about how you want the story to flow.  Though I will say gradual exposition over time is favored over an info dump; I'll refer to Fionorde Quester's criticism of Arthur and Fee's exposition dump in his LP of Genealogy of the Holy War:

Quote

I REALLY don't get why the writers felt the need to rush their exposition like that though. THESE two don't even GET any more lines in the main story! This is it! The rest of their dialogue can only be found in the Talk conversations; so why not save their backstories for those? At least then, the two can develop their own characters at a reasonable pace, rather than...whatever the heck we just read up above. Aye basura...

Basically the gist here is: you've got the entire story to cover the character's backstories, relationships, and personalities, so why not savor it for a while?

Also, showing is better than telling in the case of character development.  Of course one should hear about Gabriel and Myria before meeting them (if they turn out to be villains, that is), but if we want to learn about traits that Elvion and Roselia had in the past and how much they've changed since then, it may be better to not have it stated by the main characters but rather it be hinted at in how Gabriel and Myria react to them when meeting them once more after all that time has passed.  And also, simple descriptions of characters aren't good; in dialogue or narration, don't say that "Elvion's nice" or "Roselia is mischievous", have these traits shown in what they do.  Mostly advice that applies to books, but still good to keep in mind for a movie, show, or game.

- The SRPG Studio engine seems based on that of Genealogy's, and that never zoomed the camera out.  So... I'm honestly not sure it's even an option without some scripting shenanigans.  Until then, you'd have to make a smaller version of the map that fits within the resolution of your game (which you change in Config 2 within the databases) or you make your resolution the max one so that everything fits in it.

 

And once again, I'd like to point out that this is just my opinions and thoughts.  Of course I think you should heed it to an extent, but others will surely have valuable advice, and some may even be closer to your target audience than I am.

Though I hope my advice does help you in making a good game ヽﾉ

[DiogoJorge]

On 19/09/2018 at 3:29 AM, Ertrick36 said:

- Usually, my art is a bunch of basic drafts done in GIMP.  A lot of the time I trace over custom models I posed in XNALara or other such things, and with maps I just make some random blops with blue surrounding and arctic poles.  I'll even go with chiptunes of a variety of songs instead of using the ones in the program at base.  I hate using default assets, even for a draft, they're only good as placeholders.  But that's just me.

- I'm just having a hard time visualizing someone talking a lot right after a heated battle when their partner still has to fight someone else.  I think at most, he should say "I'm done for now" and "You have my approval" (not verbatim this, obviously).  Formal congratulations always should happen after the tested completes all their trials.  I think back to how it's handled in New Mystery (not the best written game, but the training was good enough), and every "trainer" that's defeated in the prologue saved their formal congratulations until the chapter's end.  Even the showboat Luke only says one line after being defeated.  Of course I'm not saying you should copy FE in every which way, but there's a reason why it's always handled this way.

- Well, I'm someone who disdains that kind of stuff.  I see it as an "anime" moment, and also not particularly a behavior befitting a 20-something year-old knight addressing a superior, even if that superior is a close friend.  I think there are still ways to make her out to be cutely mischievous or displaying the relationship between the two characters without resorting to silly gags like that.  But again keep in mind that I'm a 23 year-old man who hates teenagers and doesn't care much for characters like that; I'm not sure if I'm even your target audience.  If you're trying to appeal to teens or those into cheesy anime stuff, they'll eat it right up.  But if you're trying to appeal to more "mature" audiences, the adults can't really act like that.  It also depends on the tone you're going for with the game; if it's relatively light-hearted, it's fine, but if it's a more serious story then that will clash.  For your average FE... it's probably fairly standard.  Just don't draw scenes out for too long with that kind of japery or do it too frequently, because jokes can get old fast.

- To add to my description advice, it seems that the description's going "out of the box" at times, so to speak.  Normally this sort of thing can be fixed in the "Game Layout" menus, but there aren't options for descriptions.  So either make them concise, one-line descriptions, or look into the scripts and find which ones control description layout parameters.  Or even change the UI itself so that the lettering does fit the box.

- I'm glad you are, just be sure people don't start saying the exact same things.  For example if someone else is also quick like Roselia, instead of them saying "I'm quite agile", they should say "No one's faster with a blade than me".  A thesaurus or thesaurus.com may be your best friend here.  You could also use these differences to your advantage, subtly hinting at just how good units are at different stats by how confident they are in said attributes (someone with a 90% speed growth could say the "no one's faster than me" line, while someone with a 60% speed growth may say what Roselia said).  Of course, that point is moot if you'll show the characters' stats anyway, but it's some interesting flavor that actually could serve a genuine purpose should you ever discard the showing of character stats.  It may also help if they talk about specific accomplishments if they have any such as "I outpaced even the Whitewing sisters" or "I withstood the brunt of King Zephiel's attacks", though such things would only be meaningful once you've become more familiar with the world and its characters.

- If you feel it's rushed, then maybe that is not the time for the characters to recollect on past events.  Perhaps that quest should just end with the characters saying "great, we found nothing" and Elvion should probably monologue about how even though she gets him into these messes he still can't help but like her.  I say trust your gut and take a moment to think about how you want the story to flow.  Though I will say gradual exposition over time is favored over an info dump; I'll refer to Fionorde Quester's criticism of Arthur and Fee's exposition dump in his LP of Genealogy of the Holy War:

- The SRPG Studio engine seems based on that of Genealogy's, and that never zoomed the camera out.  So... I'm honestly not sure it's even an option without some scripting shenanigans.  Until then, you'd have to make a smaller version of the map that fits within the resolution of your game (which you change in Config 2 within the databases) or you make your resolution the max one so that everything fits in it.

 

And once again, I'd like to point out that this is just my opinions and thoughts.  Of course I think you should heed it to an extent, but others will surely have valuable advice, and some may even be closer to your target audience than I am.

Though I hope my advice does help you in making a good game ヽﾉ

Thanks, I will keep that in mind.