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My Hero Academia Mafia - Game Over


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1 minute ago, Shinori said:

Why was i shot?

You're a huge threat in lylo, we wanted to keep Dyachei and Alette alive for the thunderdome 1v1, and we saw feet as newbtown easily swayed. It was you or athena.

Actually I was kinda obsessed with you dying, my getting vigged by bart, and then bart hardclaiming backup vig in lylo with the shot on me to win, but we thought it was too risky.

Also yeah you got me

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guys, read this post knowing i like all of you as people, and i really appreciate when you're there for me. i had to replace out because mentally i'm not doing so hot and need to get to a better place.

that said, the wolves fucking sucked. consistent attempts at needless bussing, lack of presence and real game thought, and some of us literally lolcatting or slipping should have made this an easy town victory. in no way did wolves play well, and it's incredibly aids that the only wolf town picked up was one that scumslipped.

the potential for a high quality of play here is incredible. you're all fantastic players. thats why games like these are so disappointing.

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Setup:

Izuku Midoriya - Town Doctor (FJP)
Yuga Aoyama - Town Roleblocker (Athena_57)
Momo Yaoyorozu - Town Jack of all Trades (Marth)
Katsuki Bakugo - Town Night 2 Vigilante (Alette)
Ochaco Uraraka - Town Night 3 Vigilante (Via)
Denki Kaminari - Town Night 4 Vigilante (Mackc2)
Fumikage Tokoyami - Town Night 5 Vigilante (dyachei)
Eijiro Kirishima - Town Vanilla (Refa)
Mina Ashido - Town Vanilla (Corrobin)
Koji Koda - Town Vanilla (Weinerboy)
Mineta Minoru - Town Vanilla (BBM)
Hanta Sero - Town Vanilla (Shinori)
Tsuyu Asui - Town Vanilla (Flee Feet!)

All For One - Mafia 1-shot Bulletproof Backup Vigilante 
Tomura Shigaraki - Mafia Limited Gravedigger 
Kurogiri - Mafia Odd Night Rolecop (Tuvy2)
Dabi - Mafia Even Night Rolecop (Snike)

Fakeclaims: Follower, Universal Backup, Treestump, Vanilla

Marth went Rolecop->Roleblock->Commute, and then back to Rolecop. Bart could use the role of dead Vigs (on the night of use) if it wouldn't end the game, and the scum Gravedigger could use any dead scum roles. 

Actions:

Night 1:

fairyjigglypuff protects Athena_57 (fails, roleblocked by Athena_57)
Athena_57 roleblocks fairyjigglypuff (success)
Marth rolecops Shinori (success: Shinori is a Vanilla)

Killthestory rolecops Shinori (success: Shinori is a Vanilla)
Snike kills Refa (success, Refa dies)

Night 2:
fairyjigglypuff protects Via (success)
Athena_57 roleblocks Snike (success)
Marth roleblocks Tuvy2 (success)
Alette vigs fairyjigglypuff (success, fairyjigglypuff dies)

Snike rolecops Mackc2 (fails, roleblocked by Athena_57)
Weapons kills weinerboy (success, weinerboy dies)

Night 3:
Athena_57 roleblocks BBM (success)
Marth commutes (success)
Via shoots BBM (success, BBM dies)

WeaponsofMassConstruction rolecops dyachei (success: dyachei is a Night 5 Vigilante)
Bartozio kills Via (success, Via dies)

Night 4:
Athena_57 roleblocks WeaponsofMassConstruction (success)

Snike rolecops Athena_57 (success: Athena_57 is a Roleblocker)
WeaponsofMassConstruction kills Shinori (fails, roleblocked by Athena_57)
Bartozio vigs Shinori (success)

Postgame:

Just kidding, I'm writing this tomorrow. 

Links:

Scum Discord: https://discord.gg/RnYhbjX
Graveyard Discord: https://discord.gg/ZykwHRB

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33 minutes ago, Killthestory said:

guys, read this post knowing i like all of you as people, and i really appreciate when you're there for me. i had to replace out because mentally i'm not doing so hot and need to get to a better place.

that said, the wolves fucking sucked. consistent attempts at needless bussing, lack of presence and real game thought, and some of us literally lolcatting or slipping should have made this an easy town victory. in no way did wolves play well, and it's incredibly aids that the only wolf town picked up was one that scumslipped.

the potential for a high quality of play here is incredible. you're all fantastic players. thats why games like these are so disappointing.

We did a lot of things to subtly influence game state. We were probably obvious watching the game as informed, but the game plan of shaking things up only when getting scumread and letting town drive otherwise is really effective to uninformed and hard to unravel. We did the latter well so that's why it looked like town played bad. It certainly helped that town seemed pretty demotivated.

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2 hours ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

We did a lot of things to subtly influence game state. We were probably obvious watching the game as informed, but the game plan of shaking things up only when getting scumread and letting town drive otherwise is really effective to uninformed and hard to unravel. We did the latter well so that's why it looked like town played bad. It certainly helped that town seemed pretty demotivated.

thats like fundamentally not that complex. any wolf player who has experience plays like this. just because town gave us a free win means absolutely nothing to the quality of play. 

in every good, emphasis on good. wolfteam i've witnessed, there are always wolves who powerwolf and try to dominate thread. there are wolves who go deep and try to set up for the f3 scenario. there are wolves who try to hold scum together and keep the focus on townies. there are wolves who act as cheerleaders and keep everyone motivated (though i obviously wouldn't see that behind the scenes), mastermind wolves who coordinate small interactions that play into a larger picture of their goal (another case of the previous example.)

there were almost no elements of that here, and just because we weren't punished for it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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1 hour ago, Killthestory said:

thats like fundamentally not that complex. any wolf player who has experience plays like this. just because town gave us a free win means absolutely nothing to the quality of play. 

in every good, emphasis on good. wolfteam i've witnessed, there are always wolves who powerwolf and try to dominate thread. there are wolves who go deep and try to set up for the f3 scenario. there are wolves who try to hold scum together and keep the focus on townies. there are wolves who act as cheerleaders and keep everyone motivated (though i obviously wouldn't see that behind the scenes), mastermind wolves who coordinate small interactions that play into a larger picture of their goal (another case of the previous example.)

there were almost no elements of that here, and just because we weren't punished for it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Yeah but above all, a good scum team is adaptive. At the point where I subbed in, the game didn't need a powerwolf to dominate; if anything that would've complicated things. There was a pretty clear path to lylo which we took and beyond that kept our options open and executed when the time came. I'm not saying we played perfectly, but we played solidly, and we would've played it differently if town had broken out of its mold.

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i don't think scum played badly but I would agree that this was more of a town loss than a mafia victory. maybe it was because of inactives and subs or the 48 hour deadlines but it didn't really feel like town was really very organized and ended up settling on compromise lynches?

that being said apologies on my part for trying to take control of the thread at end of d3 when I hadn't read anything. it fucked up the lynch and also drew town's power roles to me on a pivotal night phase.

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Just policy lynch plkayers who like playing town but hate playing scum when they sub out lol. Even when they have legitimate reasons they're still scum somehow. Nature of the universe

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That was a fun game I guess, haha.

I did poorly tho imo and wasn't exactly the best at discussion, and I seemed to have caused confusion among some of you, so sorry about that. Hopefully I will be better next time when I get to join another maf game.

It was a pleasure to play with you all!

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1 hour ago, Flee Fleet! said:

That was a fun game I guess, haha.

I did poorly tho imo and wasn't exactly the best at discussion, and I seemed to have caused confusion among some of you, so sorry about that. Hopefully I will be better next time when I get to join another maf game.

It was a pleasure to play with you all!

I thought you were pretty obv town.

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16 hours ago, Athena_57 said:

Gg scum, you played today very well. Especially Bart, you pocketed me hard lmao. I feel like shit about my play, especially towards Marth/Mackc, sorry about voting you guys...

Why do you think you lived so long?

tbf, I spend most of my time trying to get my buddies lynched, so...

16 hours ago, Shinori said:

m8

Die already!!!

I mean, my vig was just insurance, since it'd fail if the normal kill went through anyway.

Most horrible thing about this game:

Tuvy never joined the scumchat, so the slip wasn't even really a slip (nobody ever talked to him about Corro).

GG town, thanks for playing my many many scum buddies! I had a lot of fun with this game.

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Setup Design

I wanted to make a large game without any third parties, just because it's pretty much unexplored design space for SF. The problem with larges is that they can really drag on, especially without multiple kills per night, which is why I wanted a fair number of kills in the game. I dislike fulvigs because they put a lot of the burden on one player (in a similar way to SK, but SK has their own wincon so that way is acceptable imo) and because of that I made the decision to split the kills across multiple players.

I spent a while debating "how many of these extra kills do I make mafia" and swung everywhere from 0/4 to 2/5 (there was a N1 vig at one point but I removed it to prevent D3 MYLO). The problem with this was still, well, the vigs would die and then the kills would vanish and the same problem would still exist. After realising this, I came up with the Backup Vig - I thought it was an interesting dynamic for scum and town to fight for the vigs as well.

The rest of the setup formed around this. I didn't wanna give scum a roleblocker along with the backup vig because it eliminates the town PRs far too quickly, so I gave them the rolecops to make more informed kills and the gravedigger to keep scum's power levels stable. 

The Backup vig had a couple of clauses for balance purposes (couldn't take the scumkill at the same time unless they were last mafia alive and couldn't just insantly win). Also I gave the Backup Vig a BPV to stop the game from snowballing heavily against them, and because Shigaraki being outright stronger than All For One seemed wrong.

Town indexed heavily into protection because of the potential for scum to pick up extra kills, and if the vigs actually hit mafia I didn't want the scumteam to be choked out of the game by investigations. Marth's JoaT was a guaranteed lynch on any of the mafia members, but it could only really clear the doc. 

None of town's roles (aside from the doc) would really stop a lynch on claim because roleblocker + joat are scummy and kind of 1v1 each other if you think too hard about it and once multiple vigs became a talking point and for them to be less obviously clear. I'll get more into this in the last section though, where I'll actually talk about how the game played out.

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The Game

I don't want to make this particularly long for the sake of actually getting this done so I'd like to just focus on a few key points because this was a bit of a collective collapse from the town rather than something I can attribute to any individual player.

After Tuvy's day 1 lynch, scum should have been under far more pressure than the actually were. Yolo literally subbed out over the Tuvy slip (and I believe someone called this out), but pressure on his slot wasn't really followed up and Snike was allowed to slip away. I'll touch more on Snike specifically later.

From Tuvy's posts, realistically the Corrobin, Athena and Alette slots were fairly easy townreads to assign just off of association. Athena and Alette were early votes based on the slip and I don't thinkt he way Alette and Athena pushed him was likely for a bus, and Corrobin reeked of mislynch bait. Instead this got pretty much ignored and I was really confused when Corrobin got lynched.

Fastforwarding to D3, where both of the D2 wagons were dead, I think that people really gave Snike a pass on his claim far too easily. The way that he pressured Mackc2 didn't really have town intent behind it - it looked like trying to wifom suspicion off of him with a softclaim (playing an investigative role to shade someone like that is scummy imo) and the supporting push on Mackc wasn't substantial enough for a genuine suspicion imo. 

It worked out, so props to Snike for managing to make the most of his situation when he was incredibly busy, but it really felt like town dropped the ball here by lynching Mackc2. It felt like the time that the extension should have been used (although I'm not sure if anyone actually read the rules for this so lol) and lynching Mack directly caused Shinori's death N4 which would have been otherwise prevented.

Wrt the vigs, town really just fell for the trap of "trying to rolespec a setup that is obviously built to survive being rolespecced". Making an assumption that there must be a scum in the vig set everyone off on the wrong lines, and even if you did think that there was one scum in the vigs, there was always going to be at least two scum outside of the vigs as well, because there was no way that Alette and dya were buddies based on their interactions. 

I really think that town spent too much time entertaining Alette and dya lynches when they should have looked outside of that and PoE'd the fact that almost nobody had Snike down as town. I think scum played a good game with blending into the chaos, but I think that their play was largely survialistic like KTS pointed out. 

I think that it could have been punished had town been more forceful with the right pushes because they weren't really controlling the gamestate so much as letting town infight. Almost everyone trying to actively solve the game was town and if anyone picked up on this properly the end result could have been very different. Weapons and Bart played well though with nobody ever really expressing strong suspicions of them, thanks for sticking it out when the start of the game looked very bleak.

The main takeaways:
1. Obvious associative reads should be looked into and they're usually right
2. Don't try and play the rolespec game, especially when you're working off of incomplete information
3. Be careful with making uncertain assumptions, because if they're wrong they're going to throw your reads off heavily

I think that covers everything. Thanks for everyone who subbed in and everyone who stayed in (especially you Bart, congrats on not getting lynched for the second time)! 

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