Corncake

My first FE7 team. Thoughts?

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3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Not really, since pretty much any unpromoted has better growths than Marcus. So they make better use of it. Would you rather give 100 xp to a unit that grows much more and has better stats by midgame or 50 xp to a unit with decent stats that become mostly mediocre for rest of the game? 

I would rather go with the option that gives me the most EXP in the shortest amount of time. Which is often the same option that benefits everyone on the team. Which, in this case, is giving Marcus boss kills.

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

They don't speak anything of the sort to me. His averages are irksome to look at.

Because you prefer shiny green numbers over actual usefulness.

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

If a unit has more stats than Marcus by leveling up, you can be sure I will be using that one over Marcus. 

No such unit exists until late in the game. And even then, Marcus is still more worth using than, say, Bartre, or Rebecca, or Guy.

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Maybe Sain can, but Kent doesn't need to to begin with, since he tanks more and is better at helping softening enemies as well, which he wants to do as a Paladin so that others get some experience. Mind you, discussing which is better is virtually pointless, since they are about equal, with Kent having a slight lead over Sain in defensive stats and Sain having a slight lead in offensive stats. 

I just showed you numbers that spell out that this isn't the case. If anything, Sain's greater Lck makes him just as effective of a tank as Kent because their concrete durability is virtually identical. Hence the reason why I basically said that Sain and Kent have a 1 point AVO gap in Sain's favor when at equal levels.

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

It's not a big threat if he uses swords, wich is what I said before.

Try "not a big threat at all".

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Kent is preferable to use due to better DEF,SPD and HP and also because he's the most likely to promote first.

Not according to his Str growth. And please don't act like marginal differences are important.

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Also, by chapter 25, Kent or Sain would be lv 4-5 Paladins, not lv 1.

Only if you either promote them early, or if you turtle. The numbers I pulled are from if you do the former.

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

And as I said before, use Marcus if you really have to, whatever works for you. He certainly doesn't work for me beyond the few chapters where he's necessary.

The fact that you're not able to make Marcus work for you "beyond where he's necessary" speaks more about you as a player than it does about Marcus as a unit. Especially since most of everyone here is able to make Marcus work "beyond where he's necessary".

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14 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

I would rather go with the option that gives me the most EXP in the shortest amount of time. Which is often the same option that benefits everyone on the team. Which, in this case, is giving Marcus boss kills.

Because you prefer shiny green numbers over actual usefulness.

No such unit exists until late in the game. And even then, Marcus is still more worth using than, say, Bartre, or Rebecca, or Guy.

I just showed you numbers that spell out that this isn't the case. If anything, Sain's greater Lck makes him just as effective of a tank as Kent because their concrete durability is virtually identical. Hence the reason why I basically said that Sain and Kent have a 1 point AVO gap in Sain's favor when at equal levels.

Try "not a big threat at all".

Not according to his Str growth. And please don't act like marginal differences are important.

Only if you either promote them early, or if you turtle. The numbers I pulled are from if you do the former.

The fact that you're not able to make Marcus work for you "beyond where he's necessary" speaks more about you as a player than it does about Marcus as a unit. Especially since most of everyone here is able to make Marcus work "beyond where he's necessary".

If it goes to Marcus, then it might as well be nothing, since Marcus doesn't grow much. The shortest time usually involves Hector and other good units, because they actually grow.

I don't need shiny green numbers, but a few 20's by midgame is nice, something that Marcus doesn't have.

Try midgame. Kent is better than Marcus at lv 20 Cavalier right before promoting. Considering his stats, I would rather use Rebecca or Guy over him. Bartre is Bartre, inferior to almost everyunit, Marcus included.

Those numbers show me they are about equal.

Not really, if they can cause around 10 damage and have a 30% Hit or more, they are still a bit of threat.

His STR would have to be 70% rather than 60% for it to be significant enough to make him better than Kent, since Kent is faster and has better accuracy. If it's marginal, so is his STR.

I don't do either. So no problem.

Not really, since I'm one of the better FE players, it says more about Marcus being barely decent than anyone's skill. I'm sure I could make him work if I wanted to, but I have yet to be given a reason to waste a deployment slot on him beyond chapter 20.

If you want to use him and he somehow helps you, good for you. I on the other hand, have no shortage of units that need deploying and that grow to be superior to Marcus, so that's how I'm going to do it.

 

Edited by DiogoJorge

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On 10/14/2018 at 4:11 PM, Critical Sniper said:

REBECCA IS A GOOD UNIT BECAUSE HER 20/20 STATS ALMOST CAP AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER UNIT DOES.

1. Dorcas

2. Guy

3. Eliwood (fight me )

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11 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

His STR would have to be 70% rather than 60% for it to be significant enough to make him better than Kent, since Kent is faster and has better accuracy. If it's marginal, so is his STR.

HA HA HA HA HA... No. How in the name of Anankos is Sain's better Strength marginal when he can get ORKOs Kent misses out on??? Kent's better accuracy doesn't help 9 times out of 10 since most enemies are slow as molasses and laughably easy to hit.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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13 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Not really, since I'm one of the better FE players, it says more about Marcus being barely decent than anyone's skill. I'm sure I could make him work if I wanted to, but I have yet to be given a reason to waste a deployment slot on him beyond chapter 20.

Alright, let's pretend for a second that outright saying "I'm one of the better FE players" doesn't make you sound like an absolute douche and infer that you're better than everyone else here because you think Marcus is bad and you claim that you're a good FE player. Now, when you take a look at other higher level FE play, KirbyMasta, DonDon, ect. you know what they all say? That Marcus is amazing, he is a key part of any LTC run, and pretty damn good for ranked runs since he can get you consistent kills in the early game, although your Exp rank may suffer, that is one of the easier ranks in the game to get. Speedrun routes depend on him, and he is often banned from drafts for being too good (or left undrafted and open to everyone because he is so good).

Also, no unit is ever "necessary", just because a unit is "necessary" past a certain point says jack about their stats, and more on the player's view of that unit. Not even the lords are necessary, you could not use them the entire game, and still be relatively fine. Are there points where Marcus isn't the best at doing everything, sure, but those points are few and far between, mostly situated at the easy as hell endgame, and at that point Marcus not being the best enemy-killer doesn't matter, since he can safely survive most of the threats, magical or not, that the game throws at him. 

You wouldn't be wasting a slot on him, wasting a slot would be putting no one there at all. Marcus's contributions to the mid and late game are being very understated. His growths aren't the greatest, but his bases carry him throughout the whole game, and he does reliable damage that you can always count on. Also, HE'S A PALADIN, literally the best class in GBA Fire Emblem, who cares if his stats are subpar when he can control the weapon triangle to fix and accuracy problems, and get to the frontlines faster. If he takes some damage, he can quickly retreat out of enemy range and get healing. Why put a bad class like Sniper on your team when you could have another Paladin?

2 hours ago, squid4001 said:

1. Dorcas

2. Guy

3. Eliwood (fight me )

Are those for best units in the game? Or is that a list of units who cap every stat? Because Dorcas certainly won't do that with his bad speed growth and low base. Guy most likely won't cap any defensive skill, and Eliwood doesn't really get enough experience to cap anything.

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32 minutes ago, DarthR0xas said:

Eliwood doesn't really get enough experience to cap anything.

not if you ACTUALLY USE HIM.

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52 minutes ago, squid4001 said:

not if you ACTUALLY USE HIM.

You can use him, and he still won't cap much, provided you're playing on Eliwood Mode where his promotion is so late that he couldn't possibly get that many levels. Now on Hector Mode, sure, since you get the first Heaven's Seal much earlier than his promotion in EM, and he does have first dibs on it due to him having unequivocally the best promotion of the three lords.

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15 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Not really, since I'm one of the better FE players, it says more about Marcus being barely decent than anyone's skill. I'm sure I could make him work if I wanted to, but I have yet to be given a reason to waste a deployment slot on him beyond chapter 20.

Ha. You're pretty much the real life version of Sylvio Sawatari from Yu-Gi-Oh Arc-V - aka, all bark, no bite. In other words, you're the living embodiment of this trope: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmallNameBigEgo

Frankly, when I think of good FE players, people like dondon151, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi, and MoogleBoss come to mind. You are not even close to worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as them, largely because you think like it's 2003.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Ha. You're pretty much the real life version of Sylvio Sawatari from Yu-Gi-Oh Arc-V - aka, all bark, no bite. In other words, you're the living embodiment of this trope: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmallNameBigEgo

Frankly, when I think of good FE players, people like dondon151, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi, and MoogleBoss come to mind. You are not even close to worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as them, largely because you think like it's 2003.

Not really. If anything, I'm the embodiment of this:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomeEgo

Care to explain that, when I'm one of the better players out there?

I don't know what's with the hostile phrasing of your post, but those are beyond good players to begin with. You are talking about elite players, not good ones. Please, I'm good enough to be compared to them, even if I'm only half as good as them.

I think "like it's 2003", because Marcus has yet to be as good as you claim he is. Not to mention that in 2003, people thought he was bad, I think he is decent, but not good enough, so not same thing.

Quote

Alright, let's pretend for a second that outright saying "I'm one of the better FE players" doesn't make you sound like an absolute douche and infer that you're better than everyone else here because you think Marcus is bad and you claim that you're a good FE player. Now, when you take a look at other higher level FE play, KirbyMasta, DonDon, ect. you know what they all say? That Marcus is amazing, he is a key part of any LTC run, and pretty damn good for ranked runs since he can get you consistent kills in the early game, although your Exp rank may suffer, that is one of the easier ranks in the game to get. Speedrun routes depend on him, and he is often banned from drafts for being too good (or left undrafted and open to everyone because he is so good).

Also, no unit is ever "necessary", just because a unit is "necessary" past a certain point says jack about their stats, and more on the player's view of that unit. Not even the lords are necessary, you could not use them the entire game, and still be relatively fine. Are there points where Marcus isn't the best at doing everything, sure, but those points are few and far between, mostly situated at the easy as hell endgame, and at that point Marcus not being the best enemy-killer doesn't matter, since he can safely survive most of the threats, magical or not, that the game throws at him. 

You wouldn't be wasting a slot on him, wasting a slot would be putting no one there at all. Marcus's contributions to the mid and late game are being very understated. His growths aren't the greatest, but his bases carry him throughout the whole game, and he does reliable damage that you can always count on. Also, HE'S A PALADIN, literally the best class in GBA Fire Emblem, who cares if his stats are subpar when he can control the weapon triangle to fix and accuracy problems, and get to the frontlines faster. If he takes some damage, he can quickly retreat out of enemy range and get healing. Why put a bad class like Sniper on your team when you could have another Paladin

They questioned my ability first, would you like it if I questioned your ability just because you refuse to use one unit? so I get to say whatever I want as long as it's true, if they question me, I will respond in kind.

I don't think I'm better than everyone else, I think I'm more than good enough to not need a crutch like Marcus on my team, when I have better units to pick from.

I don't think Marcus is bad, I think he's barely decent.

I don't care what they say, if they want to use Marcus that badly, go for it, he's not that great for me, because I have no need for whatever tactics need Marcus in beyond the early chapters. 

Maybe for LTC runs, if turns is all they care about. I don't though, I prefer effectiveness over efficiency and Marcus isn't the most effective of units beyond early chapters. If I'm S ranking than I already acomplished my goal and there's nothing else to do beyond that.

Sure, putting no one at all would be a bigger waste. But the thing is, I have at least 15 units or so that are better than him.

Being a Paladin doesn't mean much when one has high leveled Cavalier stats and barely grows. Because Snipers can use longbows and brave bows and most of them double more often than Marcus does and they provide for effective damage to fliers whitout being weightened down by slayer type weapons, their ranged weapons also cause more damage than Javelins and Handaxes with Steel, Killer and Silver bows. Also, even if I didn't put a single Sniper on my team, there's still units that would take priority over Marcus.

Edited by DiogoJorge

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Jesus fucking Christ can we PLEASE end the “is Marcus good” debate now?!  At this point we are beating the skeleton of a several month dead horse that has been dug up out of its grave!

 

@Corncake FE7 is a pretty easy game barring hector hard mode, which I’m assuming your not starting on considering this says first team, so the best advice I have for you is experiment while you play and see what works best for you. 

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15 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Jesus fucking Christ can we PLEASE end the “is Marcus good” debate now?!  At this point we are beating the skeleton of a several month dead horse that has been dug up out of its grave!

 

@Corncake FE7 is a pretty easy game barring hector hard mode, which I’m assuming your not starting on considering this says first team, so the best advice I have for you is experiment while you play and see what works best for you. 

What he said, TC. No matter what setup you use, it will probably work, there's plenty of units to pick from and most of them being good. Even bad units can somehow help you in the easier difficulties, so it's almost impossible to screw yourself over.

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6 hours ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Jesus fucking Christ can we PLEASE end the “is Marcus good” debate now?!  At this point we are beating the skeleton of a several month dead horse that has been dug up out of its grave!

 

@Corncake FE7 is a pretty easy game barring hector hard mode, which I’m assuming your not starting on considering this says first team, so the best advice I have for you is experiment while you play and see what works best for you. 

Sorry for bringing up what really shouldn't be a debate again. It's just that a self-admitted newcomer just happened to give his two cents about Marcus, and of course, people tried to address that claim. And then, someone with the mindset of a newcomer (despite his self-purported experience) chimed in, and you know the rest.

11 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I don't know what's with the hostile phrasing of your post, but those are beyond good players to begin with. You are talking about elite players, not good ones. Please, I'm good enough to be compared to them, even if I'm only half as good as them.

If that were really true, then why make every comment on your YouTube videos that's pointing out that you've made a rookie mistake into a private comment? What that tells me is that not only are you not being honest about your skill level at the game, but you also seem to be unable to take constructive criticism. That's not really something to be proud of.

Also, FYI, Diogo, being able to play through the game without using Marcus isn't really a noteworthy feat. Any novice can do it. Just saying.

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55 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

Sorry for bringing up what really shouldn't be a debate again. It's just that a self-admitted newcomer just happened to give his two cents about Marcus, and of course, people tried to address that claim. And then, someone with the mindset of a newcomer (despite his self-purported experience) chimed in, and you know the rest.

12 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I mean I understand but at this point we’ve presented our arguments and evidence many times over. The best we can do at this point is to just let it go and tell newcomers about units like Marcus and what they are capable of.

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21 hours ago, DarthR0xas said:

 is that a list of units who cap every stat?

not every stat. just a stat or 2.

 

21 hours ago, DarthR0xas said:

Dorcas certainly won't do that with his bad speed growth

strength.

21 hours ago, DarthR0xas said:

Guy most likely won't cap any defensive skill

he'll still cap a stat or 2. also for both of these units...

not if you ACTUALLY USE THEM.

Edited by squid4001

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12 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

Sorry for bringing up what really shouldn't be a debate again. It's just that a self-admitted newcomer just happened to give his two cents about Marcus, and of course, people tried to address that claim. And then, someone with the mindset of a newcomer (despite his self-purported experience) chimed in, and you know the rest.

If that were really true, then why make every comment on your YouTube videos that's pointing out that you've made a rookie mistake into a private comment? What that tells me is that not only are you not being honest about your skill level at the game, but you also seem to be unable to take constructive criticism. That's not really something to be proud of.

Also, FYI, Diogo, being able to play through the game without using Marcus isn't really a noteworthy feat. Any novice can do it. Just saying.

What you are talking about? I responded to  comments, but I don't remember turning them into private comments, I didn't know it was even possible to do so. If they are, how does one unprivate them?

Not really, I know my skill and I know to be good. It's not constructive criticism if one goes into insults, like that guy who though that was a good idea to do so in my regular run. I aknowleged his advice but refused to act on it partially, and he had the nerve to try to keep pushing me into his playstyle, so I told him to back off. That's the proper way to do things. So, yes, it's something to be proud off, because pushy people don't deserve the time of the day.

And using him or not using him, doesn't make one a good or bad player, just saying. If you want to use him beyond early game, by all means do, I on the other hand have nothing to gain from doing so.

 

Edited by DiogoJorge

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On 10/16/2018 at 10:25 PM, DarthR0xas said:

You can use him, and he still won't cap much, provided you're playing on Eliwood Mode where his promotion is so late that he couldn't possibly get that many levels. Now on Hector Mode, sure, since you get the first Heaven's Seal much earlier than his promotion in EM, and he does have first dibs on it due to him having unequivocally the best promotion of the three lords.

If you use him on Eliwood mode, he's more likely to cap because he can reach level 20 due to unpromoted exp gain + late promotion  and , IF YOU ACTUALLY US HIM HE'LL GAIN LEVELS

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18 minutes ago, squid4001 said:

If you use him on Eliwood mode, he's more likely to cap because he can reach level 20 due to unpromoted exp gain + late promotion  and , IF YOU ACTUALLY US HIM HE'LL GAIN LEVELS

Yeah, but not enough to cap him. Also, he can still easily reach level 20 in Hector mode. There are multiple arenas to grind in, the entirety of the Dread Isle arc, and a couple chapters following it before you get a heaven seal. That is more than enough time to reach level 20. If you aren't showing extreme favoritism to Eliwood, his late promotion bites him. The solo chapter which is basically an Eliwood level grind gets him at most five-six levels. He doesn't have many more chapters to grow, and the enemies being mostly unpromoted doesn't help his case.

I don't understand why you keep capitalizing "If you actually use him". Because first, no shit he'll gain levels, that's how training units works in Fire Emblem. That is literally a base-line concept. We aren't arguing over him gaining levels, which he does consistently up to a certain extend, we're are talking about caps. You are very clearly taking a heavy dose of personal experience with this. You should know that even at 20/20, Eliwood doesn't cap any stats according to his average growths. Now, you won't reach anywhere close to level 20 promoted without the aforementioned favoritism. I'll be very generous, and say 15, although 10 is much more accurate. In fact, I'll show all three stats, and what his caps are. These statistics are from the forest, https://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/characters/average-stats/eliwood/

Lvl

10

15

20

Caps

HP

44.4

48.4

52.4

60

Str

19.6

21.85

24.1

27

Skl

19

21.5

24

26

Spd

19.2

21.2

23.2

24

Lck

19.6

21.85

24.1

30

Def

14.4

15.9

17.4

23

Res

12.8

14.55

16.3

25

Yeah, he doesn't cap anything. The closest is speed, but even that is one off. Not that it matters, 23 speed is more than enough, but no caps. While we're on that matter, Dorcas technically doesn't cap strength, even at 20/20. He gets to 29.6, with a cap of 30. The only stat he caps is HP. Guy actually caps Skill and Speed, so I'll give you that.

 

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2 minutes ago, DarthR0xas said:

The solo chapter which is basically an Eliwood level grind gets him at most five-six levels.

he gained way more levels in my most recent play through (I'm no god at fe, but I'm decent.)

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Those are good choices, and like others said FE7 normal mode is easy enough that you can pretty much use whoever you want. Chapters 23 and 25 have alternate versions with different maps depending on what units you train, so you might want to keep that in mind if there's a particular one you want to go to.

Spoiler

Chapter 23: Four Fanged Offense - If the levels of the three lords add up to at least 50, you fight Linus and can recruit Geitz. If they add up to less than 50, you fight Lloyd in a fog of war map and can recruit Wallace. Whichever one you don't fight here will become a boss later in Chapter 27.

Chapter 25: Pale Flower of Darkness - If Erk, Serra, Lucius, and Priscilla have more experience than Dorcas, Bartre, Guy, and Raven, you fight Kenneth in a seize map. If they don't, you fight Jerme in a map where you rout the enemy. You can get either Harken or Karel in both versions, but which one appears is determined by how many promoted enemies you kill in the Kenneth version and how many doors you open in the Jerme version.

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21 hours ago, squid4001 said:

(I'm no god at fe, but I'm decent.)

Eliwood wont get many levels in that chapter and how are you decent? Most units will not get to 20/20 unless you grind in the arena which isn't an amzing strategy or something that requires an IQ of 195.

If youre going to talk stats use the average statistics provided by serenes forest else if you keep using your own experience to define a unit's worth then my experience differs from yours and then I should ask you why your experience should be the norm instead of mine and to solve this problem we get a units growth rates, turn them into decimal and multiply them by how many levels it is above from one and then add them to the base stats of a unit plus promotion gains to get their average stats by a certain level. 

So the equation for average stats is

Average stats = growth rates (current level - 1) + base + promotion bonuses.

 

Also I was being sarcastic, Rebecca is not that good.

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