Etrurian emperor

How canonically strong are these characters? - Day 13 (Tailtiu, Ninian, Morgan)

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36 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I strongly disagree. The fight between Naga and Duma and Mila would've simply ravaged the surface of the planet in the worst case scenario, not actually destroyed it (and even then, it was mostly confined to Archanea). The clash between the Legendary Weapons and the Dragons of Elibe was so great that it began to fuck with the universe itself. A power that alters the universe is infinitely more powerful than a power that ravages a planet.

Sure, it took longer for the Binding Blade and the other weapons to do that but i'd still argue that at their weakest, these weapons are still stronger than Falchion and the Holy Weapons.

Honestly, I have doubts on it actually being the "universe." It took years of constant warring before the Ending Winter happened. Yet it took 9 days for Mila and Duma's battle with Naga to nearly get to a similar point. This was just 9 days. They stopped before things went further south, but that's just it.

Furthermore, the weapons were merely one factor to the Ending Winter. Remember that they were clashing with the entire dragon race, minus the Divine Dragons, and the many many War Dragons spawning. It was the collision of all those dragons with the nine weapons that caused the Ending Winter.

Whereas there has never been the same scenario in any of the other stories. It was generally 1 power to defeat, not a great multitude. Jugdral would have come a bit close, had it been a lot more Loptous opponents, but there were 12 weapons going against one. You have to consider the actual numbers here. Duma and Mila were just two Divine Dragons, going against Naga and her forces, and 9 days nearly ripped the planet apart, but Duma and Mila surrendered after their nine day struggle. But the numbers are once again much less than the Scouring numbers. 

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1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Roy: Y'all sleeping, this boy is about 7-8 on the scale. Sure he isn't that physically strong but the Binding Blade is insanely powerful.

I think that's a valid argument but another way of looking at it is that Roy requires his sword to carry him in a way that Hector, Ike or even his father didn't require from their weapons. Wouldn't Roy become a lot less threatening without the Binding Blade and couldn't the Binding Blade not be capable of so much more if a stronger individual had been chosen to wield it?

The Binding Blade could definitely be taken into account but for me its also important to stress that its not part of Roy's natural strength. 

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I mostly agree with Etrurian Emperor for his Ratings, but I’d place Marth slightly lower at a 7/10 instead of a 7.5/10.

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8 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

she's powerful enough to defeat Lonqu, the strongest fighter Basillio had to offer.

Which means absolutely nothing, due to Lon'qu being afraid of women.

Edited by NinjaMonkey

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>GameFAQs 
hahhaha nice joke

Marth is technically the strongest, Roy is closer to Marth, and Lucina as per usual is on the ground dead. 

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Marth: I think Marth is pretty underrated in terms of his own raw strength. He's humble about his own abilities, but that doesn't equal weaknesses like many seem to be implying. It's definitely true he isn't the strongest character and he did have allies to help him, but it has been shown that he does indeed have good fighting prowess and makes a difference on the battlefield. Couple that with the strength of his heart and his legendary leadership skills (both things said by many characters to be significant qualities Marth possesses), and you've got one strong guy. That isn't even taking into account his abilities with the Falchion or the Binding Shield! With those, he's in the running for strongest protagonist in the series. Without the Falchion and Binding Shield, I'd put him at at least an 8/10, and with them he's easily a 10/10.

Roy: Like Marth, I think Roy is a bit underrated, although not to the same extent. Physical strength isn't everything, after all. It is shown that he's perhaps the smartest and most tactical of the protagonists of the series, being able to seriously outsmart and out battle people twice his age and experience. Even without much physical strength, he can hold his own in battle, enough at least that he won't get killed; by the end of the story, he's certainly improved in terms of physical abilities. The Binding Blade is also a big boost for him when he gets it, as it is perhaps one of the most powerful weapon in the series as far as canonical lore goes. Without the Binding Blade, I'd put Roy at about a 7/10 because of his mental abilities, and with the BB I'd put him at about a 9/10.

Lucina: I'm having a bit of a hard time putting my thoughts into words regarding Lucina, despite having beaten Awakening and seen her abilities multiple times. I think she's clearly a powerful individual, you don't survive an apocalyptic landscape without some skill after all, but I'm not sure I'd say she's necessarily more powerful than some of the other FE protagonists. I would say she's at least an 8/10.

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2 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Which means absolutely nothing, due to Lon'qu being afraid of women.

Wasn't she still dressed as a boy then, so she was able to defeat him, which says a lot.

I think Lucina definitely is the strongest of the three options presented, just because if you literally grew up fighting Risen for years, you had to be pretty kickass and it really seemed like she was leading the other children, so canonically I think she's pretty tough (especially given her age and how she could stand toe-to-toe with veteran fighters). 

Then Marth, and then Roy would be last for me. I'm going purely based on physical strength for these characters (not including attached weapons), because I bet Lucina could pick up ANY blade and be incredibly skilled, whereas Roy relies ON his weapon for his skill and Marth is clearly a good fighter.

Marth: 7/10

Roy: 6/10

Lucina: 8.5/10

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Why are people bringing up things like intellect and charisma when it comes to overall power/strength of a fighter? I'm pretty sure this tier list is based on who is the better fighter in a 1 on 1. 

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10 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Why are people bringing up things like intellect and charisma when it comes to overall power/strength of a fighter? I'm pretty sure this tier list is based on who is the better fighter in a 1 on 1. 

Do you think Eliwood beats Hector in power and strength? How does Eliwood win most of his matches against Hector if he's obviously weaker? Intellect obviously will play a role.

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Do you think Eliwood beats Hector in power and strength? How does Eliwood win most of his matches against Hector if he's obviously weaker? Intellect obviously will play a role.

Weapon triangle. 

Edited by Icelerate

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Theres 2 things to consider for Roy and Marth

1. They get access to much

 

2. Progression. You really cant say they didnt progress as a fighter over the course of their journey. Marth is probably the single most absurd one out of any lord in this regards with the exception for Ike and Eliwood since he lasts 2 games but Roy

- Requires Etrurian assistance to kicks out Bern, all the while being the only person who manage to broke through Ostias defense 

- Forms an alliance with Etruria with him at helm, proceed to essentially stomps everything left right and center, and is regarded as one of the strongest in the continent - enough that Murdock want to have a 1v1 with him. Murdock is the strongest of the dragon general 2 of which defeated Hector. And Hector is strong, hes as strong as Eliwood who is implied to be able to singlehandedly turns around the course of the war if he was in condition

Which puts him at very high position

 

And then you have Marth. Over the course of the journey, Marth went up and fought several ridiculously strong character with and without Legendary weapons or orbs

Notably, he fought Michalis(read up on FE3 to figure out how impossibly strong this dude is), 1v1 Hardin(remember that the primary effect of Dark Sphere is a steroid. The madness and invincibility is a side effect. So Hardin DOES canonically have 20 in every stats and he is very strong), and defeated Camus(self explanatory) in battle. In story hes the only person besides Anri who manage to suceed at making it through the impossible journey that is Anri's Way. Theres a certain point where you cant really throes everything into the leadership bin

 

So yeah looking back at what he achieved Marth is honestly an easy 8-9/10. If Camus was the standard were using for 9/10, Marth is definitely a 8.5/10. The fact that the lore for FE1 and FE3 really boils down to Marth acting as the big factor that won both War of Shadows and War of Heroes should tell as much

 

Because Fuck Kris thats why

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4 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Because Fuck Kris thats why

Kris' first and foremost mistake was being an Avatar in a remake. 

Second, I only tolerate Kris because Katarina. I love her.

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Yo @Etrurian emperor, out of curiosity, are you considering adding in characters we don't see in-game? I'm curious as to how the discussion might go when characters we don't see but hear about their deeds, like Anri, the Eight Legends, Twelve Crusaders, etc. get involved.

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5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Honestly, I have doubts on it actually being the "universe." It took years of constant warring before the Ending Winter happened. 

When the effects involve inverting night and day and causing weird weather patterns in places that shouldn't exist, yeah, it's safe to say that the laws of nature were messed up. They mention that the Ending Winter caused heavy amount of magic to be used up in the universe's attempt to fix itself. You could argue that it was just the planet but the damage was still greater than whatever Naga, Duma and Mila did.

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Duma and Mila were just two Divine Dragons, going against Naga and her forces, and 9 days nearly ripped the planet apart, but Duma and Mila surrendered after their nine day struggle.

It did not nearly rip the planet apart, i don't know where you are getting that from. At most, the worst thing that happened was that the surface of Archanea took heavy damage. The battles never reached Valentia or Jugdral but even if they did, i doubt they would've "ripped the planet". I don't think anyone in FE is capable of actual planet busting. The only two possible canidates are Ashera because she's an actual Goddess and maaaaaaaybe Anankos if he can conjure up a big enough black hole.

But we're getting a bit off topic. My original point was that the Binding Blade>Falchion.

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This is far too close to powerscaling to really make me reasonably consider this.

I think the strongest lord is shouzou kaga with his ability to kill the lords with his incredibly difficult maps and hard modes.

dont @ me 

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For those who brand Roy as overly weak, well this is from the end of the game, but it does exist.

04.png

Insofar as it is canon, Roy fought Zephiel directly, probably being the one who is supposed to have canonically slain him. Of course, we'd then need to establish Zephiel's power level. But Zephiel would might be weaker than Medeus, so Marth would be superior to Roy, barring the Binding Blade. Idunn is certainly weaker than Medeus, being a soulless factory and not a dragon for actual fighting themselves. So to establish Zephiel's power level, we'd want to look at other humans, like Black Knights 1.0 and 3.0. 

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16 minutes ago, Armagon said:

When the effects involve inverting night and day and causing weird weather patterns in places that shouldn't exist, yeah, it's safe to say that the laws of nature were messed up. They mention that the Ending Winter caused heavy amount of magic to be used up in the universe's attempt to fix itself. You could argue that it was just the planet but the damage was still greater than whatever Naga, Duma and Mila did.

2

It's global warming if anything. Nothing that the universe itself was breaking apart. 

16 minutes ago, Armagon said:

It did not nearly rip the planet apart, i don't know where you are getting that from. At most, the worst thing that happened was that the surface of Archanea took heavy damage. The battles never reached Valentia or Jugdral but even if they did, i doubt they would've "ripped the planet". I don't think anyone in FE is capable of actual planet busting. The only two possible canidates are Ashera because she's an actual Goddess and maaaaaaaybe Anankos if he can conjure up a big enough black hole.

The line used in the Valentian Revelations is:

Quote

The earth split, the seas parted, and the heavens themselves threatened to come tumbling down. The battle transcended any that history had yet know.

Like, it's already declaring that the land, ocean, and sky itself was about to break apart from their climactic battle. Hell, some theorize now that this is what caused Jugdral and Valentia to form, as Archanea was the Fire Emblem Pangea. Not sure if I personally believe that, but at this point, anything is possible. 

Not to mention is that Duma and Mila didn't lose, just that they surrendered due to knowing they were no match for Naga and her forces. They didn't have a complete battle, unlike the Scouring, which was a complete war to the death. 

Technically speaking, Grima is multi-continental, which in Fire Emblem is pretty much equivalent to planet busting. He actually HAS destroyed a planet in Future Past, given that Naga went through great lengths to STOP Grima by breaking through space-time to get help to stop that future from happening. 

Also, eh. For all Ashera's power, it's extremely inconsistent in how she uses it. Ashunera was technically the one that caused the Great Flood, though even that wasn't a display of power so much as exploiting a weakness all land-based creatures have: oxygen. Or a lack of thereof.

1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

For those who brand Roy as overly weak, well this is from the end of the game, but it does exist.

04.png

Insofar as it is canon, Roy fought Zephiel directly, probably being the one who is supposed to have canonically slain him. Of course, we'd then need to establish Zephiel's power level. But Zephiel would might be weaker than Medeus, so Marth would be superior to Roy, barring the Binding Blade. Idunn is certainly weaker than Medeus, being a soulless factory and not a dragon for actual fighting themselves. So to establish Zephiel's power level, we'd want to look at other humans, like Black Knights 1.0 and 3.0. 

1

It should be noted that when Marth fought Medeus in FE1/11, Medeus was not fully revived, and thus not at full power, so he was weaker than when Anri fought him. However, in FE3/12, though Medeus was still not fully revived, he was a Dark Dragon, which is theorized to have power equal to that of a Divine Dragon, so even if not fully revived, he would be much stronger than when he was fighting Anri at the very least, and Marth defeated him there. 

Keep in mind that lorewise, Falchion is the ONLY weapon capable of slaying Medeus. So Marth had to have fought Medeus one on one. 

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1 hour ago, Sunsurge said:

Wasn't she still dressed as a boy then, so she was able to defeat him, which says a lot.

Lucina is the least convincing dude ever.

Edited by NinjaMonkey

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

It should be noted that when Marth fought Medeus in FE1/11, Medeus was not fully revived, and thus not at full power, so he was weaker than when Anri fought him. However, in FE3/12, though Medeus was still not fully revived, he was a Dark Dragon, which is theorized to have power equal to that of a Divine Dragon, so even if not fully revived, he would be much stronger than when he was fighting Anri at the very least, and Marth defeated him there. 

Keep in mind that lorewise, Falchion is the ONLY weapon capable of slaying Medeus. So Marth had to have fought Medeus one on one. 

Fair points.

Although it too is the case that only the Binding Blade is effective on Idunn in gameplay, none of the Divine Weapons are. Even if it is never said in lore the Binding Blade is the only effective weapon against her, which likely isn't said because Hartmut didn't actually slay Idunn.

And now that throws another wrench into Medeus. Does a brainwashed dark dragon not made for battle, but not only just resurrected and having enough power to mass produce inferior dragons, have more power than a raging-to-the-core-of-their-soul, battle-oriented, but not fully resurrected Shadow Dragon?

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1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Fair points.

Although it too is the case that only the Binding Blade is effective on Idunn in gameplay, none of the Divine Weapons are. Even if it is never said in lore the Binding Blade is the only effective weapon against her, which likely isn't said because Hartmut didn't actually slay Idunn.

And now that throws another wrench into Medeus. Does a brainwashed dark dragon not made for battle, but not only just resurrected and having enough power to mass produce inferior dragons, have more power than a raging-to-the-core-of-their-soul, battle-oriented, but not fully resurrected Shadow Dragon?

I'll be honest, Elibe Dragons never gave the case that they were honestly the strongest kinds of dragons. They felt rather weak in comparison to the other dragons. Hell, they even have such low variety, with Ice, Fire, and Divine. War and Demon are not real tribes. 

Idunn has no will and only attacks out of reaction. However, should be noted too that dragons grew weaker due to the Ending Winter. Archanean Dragons didn't suffer this. Well, becoming a Manakete does give a handicap, but when reviving as a Dark Dragon, Medeus wasn't labeled a Manakete any longer. So the handicap would more or less be removed from him. 

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I... haven't beaten FE6 yet, so I'll only talk about Marth and Lucina.

-Marth: The hero-king goes first. As others have said and against popular believe, Marth is strong, maybe not top tier, but definitely remarkable, we are talking ablut someone who won against Medeus and, as effective as falchion is, that isn't an easy feat. We know his battle prowess comes from his speed and his even greater skill in swordmanship, being able of fighting with different styles, those being fencing, longsword and sword and shield.

Now, while his fighting skills have been praised by other characters, they are often overshadowed. The reason, imo, can be found on how he behaves in the battlefield, which we can deduce from three of his Skills in Fates: Dancing Blade, which makes him faster at the cost of his defense, Dual Guardsman, which consists on being the support during Guard Stance, and Speedtaker, which makes him faster everytime he defeats an enemy. Coupled with Chroms supports in Warriors where the he has to save Marth after he came to rescue him, and Lucina's where she praises how he always shows up when he is most needed, we can deduce that as skilled as he is he probably concentrates in rescuing those who need it, one after another and faster every time (while leaving himself half-open), but not taking the main spot in the battlefield. 

Without Falchion and the Shield, I'd give him a 7.5/10, maybe an 8 if he focused more on the actual fighting. With them, and looking at how the ranking works, I'd say he is clearly a 9/10

 

-Lucina: I don't have as much to say about Lucina as I did about Marth, aside from having aether, her skills tells us that she is particulary good fighting in pairs (Dual Strike) and that she is better under presure (Awakening). She, as Marth, also has Charm, but that's not important here. Aside from the sword she can also use lances and seemingly bows. Now, on her actual strenght, she seems to be at Chrom's level, who Kjelle goes as far as to say that is the strongest man in the army, so she is pretty much top tier in our army. Also, she technically has holly blood, doesn't she?

All in all, I'd probably give her an 8'5/10.

 

I know I used gameplay in a "canon" discussion but I think it's kind of fair as those classes are exclusive to them.

 

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13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'll be honest, Elibe Dragons never gave the case that they were honestly the strongest kinds of dragons. They felt rather weak in comparison to the other dragons. Hell, they even have such low variety, with Ice, Fire, and Divine. War and Demon are not real tribes. 

Idunn has no will and only attacks out of reaction. However, should be noted too that dragons grew weaker due to the Ending Winter. Archanean Dragons didn't suffer this. Well, becoming a Manakete does give a handicap, but when reviving as a Dark Dragon, Medeus wasn't labeled a Manakete any longer. So the handicap would more or less be removed from him. 

On the Medeus-Manakete thing, I don't see where it says he would stop being a Manakete. Because he would ever not be a Manakete in the first place once resurrected. Since Manakete is a state of being a dragon has to actively make themselves into, and I don't think Shadow Dragon Medeus would ever do that.

 

I will agree that Elibean Dragons, barring the FE7 Fire Dragon in gameplay, aren't strong. I guess the FD however is actually close to being what Athos fought before he invented Forblaze and his friends the rest. Being that the FD is standing in an open Dragon's Gate having only at that moment crossed over from a world conducive to dragons, it likely hadn't suffered a forced power drop yet due to the post-Ending Winter magical environment.

And with regards to the variety comment, of Archanea, Elibe, and Tellius, Elibe is probably the worst in its execution of dragons in the world. They are a thing of the ancient past now dead in Elibe save for a loli, a brainwashed girl, and a man in an actual dragon robe. Archanean dragons are more alive, if still near death, and have in lore far greater power and wisdom on display. Tellius's dragons aren't as strong, but still powerful, and while still aloof, their reasoning for aloofness was fairly good for me, they fit into their world without overpowering it.

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Also, the army defeating the other army doesn't imply the leader of one army killed the leader of the other army in a 1 VS 1 necessarily unless there is more supporting evidence that backs this up. So feats like Marth's army beating Camus and the Sable Knights doesn't imply Marth over powered Camus in a duel. 

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42 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's global warming if anything. Nothing that the universe itself was breaking apart. 

Last i checked, global warming doesn't cause the stars to shine in the day.

44 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Like, it's already declaring that the land, ocean, and sky itself was about to break apart from their climactic battle. Hell, some theorize now that this is what caused Jugdral and Valentia to form, as Archanea was the Fire Emblem Pangea.

Fair enough though i still doubt that the battle would've "shattered the planet" as you claim (since the sky can't actually break, that part was most definietly metephorical). It definitely deformed the land but i still think that was just Archanea. No one was really living in Valentia and we all know the series likes to forgrt about Jugdral.

So yeah, that battle was catalysmic but not planet-busting. 

49 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

He actually HAS destroyed a planet in Future Past, given that Naga went through great lengths to STOP Grima by breaking through space-time to get help to stop that future from happening. 

Did he actually destroy the planet or just make it uninhabitable? Cuz i feel like if he actually destroyed the planet, he wouldn't be alive. He's not immortal.

That brings up the matter if dragons can survive in space but that's neither here nor there.

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2 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Last i checked, global warming doesn't cause the stars to shine in the day.

It's more of a massive weather phenomenon. Just as there are parts of the planet that as 24-hour sunlight or nighttime, there are things like that. The exact details of the Ending Winter ended up getting glossed over since they moved into what the Ending Winter did to them, being that they caused the dragons to lose the war.

Still hefty impressive, but nothing that I would genuinely argue is planet-busting. 

5 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Fair enough though i still doubt that the battle would've "shattered the planet" as you claim (since the sky can't actually break, that part was most definietly metephorical). It definitely deformed the land but i still think that was just Archanea. No one was really living in Valentia and we all know the series likes to forgrt about Jugdral.

So yeah, that battle was catalysmic but not planet-busting. 

You're missing one big detail though. This was merely a 9-day battle, which Duma and Mila surrendered. Not lost, merely surrendered. Imagine if they prolonged the fight to further? Two weeks? An entire month? If 9 days was causing serious cataclysmic damage, then had the battle lasted longer than that, the planet would be busted. 

The thing about Divine Dragons is that their powers are never depicted in the actual games to their full extent. Some handicap. Rudolf and Alm never fought the Mila and Duma in their prime since they had weakened many years prior.

7 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Did he actually destroy the planet or just make it uninhabitable? Cuz i feel like if he actually destroyed the planet, he wouldn't be alive. He's not immortal.

That brings up the matter if dragons can survive in space but that's neither here nor there.

Well, Naga's exact words were:

Quote

Naga: None do. It sinks, unresisting, into shadow...and finally fades into oblivion. This is the world's inexorable destiny. But sometimes destinies are too cruel...and so I sought help. Warriors, I beseech you: intervene. Change what cannot be changed without you.

Odin also described Grima as a "world-eater" and Naga also stated that Grima seeks to add to his power. So if he devours the entire planet, he basically has taken the power to add to his own. And given that Grima has space-time powers, even if he can't survive in space, he would move to another dimension to devour, continuously growing stronger.

And technically, Grima is immortal. He can't die unless he kills himself. Much like how Ashera and Yune cannot die normally, but Ashera claims that she would destroy Yune, which Lehran states would destroy Ashera as well.

17 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

On the Medeus-Manakete thing, I don't see where it says he would stop being a Manakete. Because he would ever not be a Manakete in the first place once resurrected. Since Manakete is a state of being a dragon has to actively make themselves into, and I don't think Shadow Dragon Medeus would ever do that.

I will agree that Elibean Dragons, barring the FE7 Fire Dragon in gameplay, aren't strong. I guess the FD however is actually close to being what Athos fought before he invented Forblaze and his friends the rest. Being that the FD is standing in an open Dragon's Gate having only at that moment crossed over from a world conducive to dragons, it likely hadn't suffered a forced power drop yet due to the post-Ending Winter magical environment.

And with regards to the variety comment, of Archanea, Elibe, and Tellius, Elibe is probably the worst in its execution of dragons in the world. They are a thing of the ancient past now dead in Elibe save for a loli, a brainwashed girl, and a man in an actual dragon robe. Archanean dragons are more alive, if still near death, and have in lore far greater power and wisdom on display. Tellius's dragons aren't as strong, but still powerful, and while still aloof, their reasoning for aloofness was fairly good for me, they fit into their world without overpowering it.

 

Being a Manakete means sealing your dragon power in a dragonstone, taking a permanent human form. By the time we see Medeus in FE12, he's not even in human form, but purely a dragon form. It's unsure if Medeus somehow managed to permanently regain his dragon form or not, but he was definitely much stronger.

The funny thing is that the Fire Dragons that come in FE7 are in no way sentient even. They seem almost like they degenerated. People actually claim that these are the Archanean Fire Dragons. If that is the case, that just confirms that Archanean Dragons are far superior to Elibe Dragons. I mean, for the record, it was stated that the Dragon's Gate takes you to another dimension.

The Archanean Dragons are so strong that they are basically worshipped as gods and have incredible power. Duma and Mila are so strong, their blessing covers a large landmass. Though at the same time, the humans of Elibe are definitely impressive, having created weapons as powerful as the dragon forged weapons in Archanea. Like, even if I don't believe they are superior to the Holy Weapons and Falchion, I agree they are incredibly strong. Perhaps equal in power.

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