How would you handle rerolling IVs?

[DefyingFates]

(I know this a bold thing to ask since we can't even check IVs in-game yet, but bear with me.)

Getting bad IVs sucks, especially when a unit's kit is designed to work with a particular stat (e.g. Ayra, the Myrrhs). Some would say that IS would never let us fix bad stats because they'd lose sales from whales who would pull on a banner for an "ideal" unit, and I agree that that's probably the reason they haven't done so already. However IS has already made some QoL that risked their bottom line, with the most recent example being Combat Manuals (since buying more space is now pointless). So, if IV-fixing is ever made real, how would you expect it to be implemented?

Right now we have two currencies that are completely useless (whether IS wants to admit it or not): Arena Medals and Light's Blessings. Why not let us use one of these to adjust a unit's IVs? And if they chose the Medals, it'd be another incentive to play Arena for those who've turned away from it. And if getting to choose our exact IVs is too much to ask, letting us randomise the IVs of a specific unit could work too, as long as you lowered the cost to compensate - this way people would only reroll for units who have the worst IVs possible LIKE MY -SPD/+RES LAEGJARN and be more likely to just cross their fingers for a lucky summon while pulling for other units (e.g. if someone wants a 4* unit for merging).

Thoughts?

P.S. I hope this question is open enough to stand on its own, @eclipse?

[Landmaster]

If this was something they ever did, I would imagine they'd either make a new currency for it or charge a lot of Orbs.

The problem with changing IVs is that it's something really hard to justify since they're supposed to reflect a specific individual unit and changing them almost makes it pointless to ever need another of the same unit other than if you want to +10 them.

It's why they've yet to implement it in Pokemon despite people (for whatever reason) asking for it for years. It's the Individual Unit's boon and bane, I just don't see a non competitive reason they could justify allowing you to change them. Even in a normal FE game, you can't change your boon/bane after you choose it~

I'd also argue that Light's Blessings aren't useless, especially for new players, so I couldn't see them using those to change IVs. But I do think, at the most, they'd allow you to just randomize the +/- stats rather than letting you directly choose what you want it to be (which would be broken)~

[bottlegnomes]

Hey! LBs let me half-ass those quests that involve not losing a unit.

Anyway, make it cost 2-3 orbs to change them to a new random value and let the player reset the IVs to whatever they were at the start of the session at any point.

The resetting is simple: Don't make the player end up worse off than they started.

The cost, my thinking is that yeah, it costs less than summoning and yeah, you're guaranteed a certain unit, but you're also guaranteed to not get anything new. You don't get the feathers, SI fodder, merges, or new characters along the way. It's more stable, but has less in the way of benefits.

As for justification, see it as spending a unit + some orbs to summon a new guaranteed unit?

Edited October 10, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[XRay]

I like the idea. It takes an average of like maybe 100 to 200 Orbs or something to snipe a copy I think? I would be willing to use the randomize feature if it costs like 50 Orbs or something.

1 hour ago, DefyingFates said:

However IS has already made some QoL that risked their bottom line, with the most recent example being Combat Manuals (since buying more space is now pointless).

I still need more space. I guess I can turn some GHB and TT units into Combat Manuals, but having them as regular units allows them to be favorited and makes it harder to accidentally to get rid of them.

[Mau]

First of all, I would definitely love a way to fix IVs. It's especially annoying when you get a seasonal unit and it has the worst IVs (I got multiple of those) and you're stuck with it for about a year until you can try for another one.

However, like you already said yourself, I don't think IS will let us do this cause they would probably miss out on a lot of money. Way more than the Skill Books are costing them since getting another version of a specific unit mostly costs a lot more than just getting a few barracks upgrades.

I think the only way they could possibly do this is by:

1) Making it random, no way you get to choose which IVs you want. I would love that, but that would make the whole point of IVs useless and it would cost them loads of money cause there would be no reason to spend more orbs once you got one version of a unit, no matter which IVs they got (except for those that want to +10 them of course).

2) Making it cost orbs. Cause orbs are the rarest resource and the one thing that people can buy. There has to be a way for IS to still make money out of this.

So what I could imagine is you'd have to pay like 20 orbs (probably closer to 50 really), sacrifice the unit with the bad IVs, and you'd get a new version of the unit with new random IVs. That seems the only sorta 'fair' way imo. I personally would totally spend 20-50 orbs for an IV change, that's still less orbs than I'd have to spend to get another of the unit, and especially when it comes to seasonal units for which you can't reroll for a long time at all.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Mau

[Azuni]

1 hour ago, DefyingFates said:

Right now we have two currencies that are completely useless (whether IS wants to admit it or not): Arena Medals and Light's Blessings.

There is a third currency that could be an option (Arena Crowns). Gaining a few Crowns here and there is akin to bouncing between t19 and t20 in old Arena, which was not very difficult. A combination of Medals and Crowns would be nice, since it would give them both real value.

[Mau]

Just now, Azuni said:

There is a third currency that could be an option (Arena Crowns). Gaining a few Crowns here and there is akin to bouncing between t19 and t20 in old Arena, which was not very difficult. A combination of Medals and Crowns would be nice, since it would give them both real value.

Maybe not difficult for you, I'm happy I finally made it to tier 19 this week while having played from the start ^^; Using crowns would make IV rerolling only available to those who already have the best units with the best IVs and +10 merged. They have no real use for IV rerolling and mostly have the cash to spend on just summoning more versions of that unit.

The point of IV rerolling should be that getting good IVs becomes more accessible to those that don't have the means to summon more than one copy of a 5* imo.

[Icelerate]

If I were IS, I would make people spend 20 orbs to reroll their IVs. 

[kirauza343]

At best I can see them letting us spend some sort of currency in order to set ivs to neutral: it would help players get rid of a bad nature while not costing them much in the long run since a neutral nature is practically no one's ideal nature.

[Sunwoo]

Honestly, I think the easiest way to deal with changing natures is to just give us an option to make certain characters we pull neutral.

Like, "neutral" is the default. While a lot of the earlier units would probably not do very well with neutral (see: Odin, Henry, etc.), most contemporary characters have good enough weapons and stat distributions and skills to get away with neutral, and it doesn't feel bad like pulling one -atk character after spending hundreds of orbs on a banner.

I don't think it'd lose them (too much) money either, people who want THE BEST nature on their favorite character or are looking for +10 won't settle for neutral, so that won't stop them from spending if they normally do. But this helps people who may have already spent money on orbs to pull for a certain character and only got -atk or -spd version, or people who wouldn't spend money for a better nature anyway. They're certainly not spending any more for a better nature, especially if they're frustrated and pissed off about putting in that many orbs for a bad nature. I think at the very least, it builds good will and could make people a bit more okay with spending money, since if they do pull a bad natured unit they could at least make it neutral.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Sunwoo

[Lewyn]

22 minutes ago, kirauza343 said:

At best I can see them letting us spend some sort of currency in order to set ivs to neutral: it would help players get rid of a bad nature while not costing them much in the long run since a neutral nature is practically no one's ideal nature.

This is what I feel.  A way to get neutral stats.  The ideal nature is rarely neutral, but at the same time neutral is almost never bad.  So in this way people can spend some sort of currency, even orbs, to get neutral nature.

20 orbs get neutral nature?  

In the end if they give any such option it will cost them money.  I just wish attack wasn't possible as a bane, almost no character wants that.  

[Ice Dragon]

I ran this idea in the general discussion thread before, I believe:

• Sending units home give you a consumable item based on their boon. For example, sending home a +HP unit gives you a Seraph Robe. Sending home a +Spd unit gives you a Speedwings. Higher-rarity units give more items.
  • Neutral units give a different item used to set a unit to neutral.
  • Combat manuals will maybe rotate through all of the items in turn (i.e. the first Combat Manual gives Seraph Robe, the second Energy Ring, the third Speedwings, etc. where the game remembers where you were in the rotation) or just rotate by day?
• These consumable items can also be acquired from quest and event rewards.
• A number of these items can be expended to change the unit's nature. For example, x number of Speedwings allows you to change a unit's boon to Spd and y (less than x) number of Speedwings allows you to change a unit's bane into Spd.
  • A bane cannot be directly changed to a boon or vice versa; the unit needs to be reset to neutral before you can completely flip a stat the other direction.
  • Changing a neutral unit to another nature requires setting both the boon and bane simultaneously.
• Items can be exchanged with others at a less than 1:1 rate.

Numbers should be balanced so that a free player can set about one boon per stat per month and a moderately-sized whale can set about two and a half boons per stat per month.

[DefyingFates]

10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I ran this idea in the general discussion thread before, I believe:

• Sending units home give you a consumable item based on their boon. For example, sending home a +HP unit gives you a Seraph Robe. Sending home a +Spd unit gives you a Speedwings. Higher-rarity units give more items.
  • Neutral units give a different item used to set a unit to neutral.
  • Combat manuals will maybe rotate through all of the items in turn (i.e. the first Combat Manual gives Seraph Robe, the second Energy Ring, the third Speedwings, etc. where the game remembers where you were in the rotation) or just rotate by day?
• These consumable items can also be acquired from quest and event rewards.
• A number of these items can be expended to change the unit's nature. For example, x number of Speedwings allows you to change a unit's boon to Spd and y (less than x) number of Speedwings allows you to change a unit's bane into Spd.
  • A bane cannot be directly changed to a boon or vice versa; the unit needs to be reset to neutral before you can completely flip a stat the other direction.
  • Changing a neutral unit to another nature requires setting both the boon and bane simultaneously.
• Items can be exchanged with others at a less than 1:1 rate.

Numbers should be balanced so that a free player can set about one boon per stat per month and a moderately-sized whale can set about two and a half boons per stat per month.

Ooh, I like this idea! This way you still need units with your desired boons/ banes (at LEAST three, with this system) to fix a single unit's stats, which means you still need to pull and pray to RNGesus. My only nitpick is that setting someone's IVs to neutral needs to be easier - maybe you can also get these items from Quest/ Arena rewards and the "Neutral" item is more common than the others? The system is too dependent on pulling neutral units otherwise.

---

Original thoughts:

I don't like the idea of spending Orbs, especially with the random element intact, but that seems to be what the consensus believes is the most likely way IS would implement this feature and I have to agree. I'd rather spend an ungodly amount of some other currency (like 5000 Arena Medals for a manual IV change or 3000 for a random one) than a single Orb, which I know is stingy, but still...selling rerolls for Orbs would be such a backhanded gift. A feasible one, yes, but backhanded all the same.

Edited October 10, 2018 by DefyingFates

[DefyingFates]

2 hours ago, Landmaster said:

The problem with changing IVs is that it's something really hard to justify since they're supposed to reflect a specific individual unit and changing them almost makes it pointless to ever need another of the same unit other than if you want to +10 them.

It's why they've yet to implement it in Pokemon despite people (for whatever reason) asking for it for years. It's the Individual Unit's boon and bane, I just don't see a non competitive reason they could justify allowing you to change them.

My counterargument to this is that your Pokemon are just individual members of an entire species, so variations between them make sense, whereas Heroes are specific characters. If anything the idea of natures itself is what doesn't make sense. At least that's how I interpret Summoning, so maybe I'm just being naive.

1 hour ago, Azuni said:

There is a third currency that could be an option (Arena Crowns). Gaining a few Crowns here and there is akin to bouncing between t19 and t20 in old Arena, which was not very difficult. A combination of Medals and Crowns would be nice, since it would give them both real value.

 

1 hour ago, Mau said:

Maybe not difficult for you, I'm happy I finally made it to tier 19 this week while having played from the start ^^; Using crowns would make IV rerolling only available to those who already have the best units with the best IVs and +10 merged. They have no real use for IV rerolling and mostly have the cash to spend on just summoning more versions of that unit.

The point of IV rerolling should be that getting good IVs becomes more accessible to those that don't have the means to summon more than one copy of a 5* imo.

I agree with Mau here; I'd much rather Arena Crowns remain a Bragging Rights Reward (i.e. "Guess what, my inventory proves I've been in Tier 21 since it was first introduced!") than something with practical use - anyone who's saved up enough Arena Crowns to spend on...well, anything really, doesn't get anything out of doing so unless they're working on a passion project or meme build to show off.

2 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

Hey! LBs let me half-ass those quests that involve not losing a unit.

I didn't know LBs could salvage those. I could have sworn they didn't for me...

(P.S. Apologies for the double post, I don't know how to add quotes when editing a previous comment.)

Edited October 10, 2018 by DefyingFates

[Ice Dragon]

15 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Ooh, I like this idea! This way you still need units with your desired boons/ banes (at LEAST three, with this system) to fix a single unit's stats, which means you still need to pull and pray to RNGesus. My only nitpick is that setting someone's IVs to neutral needs to be easier - maybe you can also get these items from Quest/ Arena rewards and the "Neutral" item is more common than the others? The system is too dependent on pulling neutral units otherwise.

True. It could just be made so that you need fewer neutralizers to set a unit to neutral than other items to set a boon or bane.

 

6 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

(P.S. Apologies for the double post, I don't know how to add quotes when editing a previous comment.)

On mobile, I think it's impossible, but I'm not an expert on mobile browsers.

On a computer, put the quote in the reply box, click the quote box anywhere outside of the content so that it is selected, and you can copy and paste it into the edit box.

[daisy jane]

maybe instead of re-rolling IV's.. why not just make the first unit you get neutral? 

then that way you can make what your unit out to be. this way. you still get those who don't care - and they have their unit (and then will re-roll anyway to get more units/merged units), and you still have whales who want to super custom their unit anyway. 

win win. 

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

maybe instead of re-rolling IV's.. why not just make the first unit you get neutral? 

I almost never want to have a neutral copy, though. Neutral is never optimal.

I wouldn't be able to get the stroke of luck I had last night with my first Halloween Mia being [+Spd, -Def] or my first Myrrh being [+Atk, -Res].

[Shiki]

Boon/banes are one of the incentives to keep rolling beyond reaching +10, so I highly doubt that any solution will be implemented. After all it's unlikely to get that one ideal combination from just 11 pulls.

33 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Numbers should be balanced so that a free player can set about one boon per stat per month and a moderately-sized whale can set about two and a half boons per stat per month.

That's very optimistic. That's only about a week more to get enough feathers from Arena/Dailies to promote a 4* into a 5* unit.

[daisy jane]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

I almost never want to have a neutral copy, though. Neutral is never optimal.

I wouldn't be able to get the stroke of luck I had last night with my first Halloween Mia being [+Spd, -Def] or my first Myrrh being [+Atk, -Res].

hmm this is true. 
i was thinking more of a "building" purpose. if people feel like 'hunting' they could then force the iv build that way. 
also. i am jealous you have Mia.

i guess - hmmm i don't know
like. if you can weapon refine, etc, you could be able to refine your character. just create a new currency and make it rare

[Arcphoenix]

IMO being able to choose IVs kind of kills part of the whole point of IVs. IVs don't necessarily ruin a unit. Usually. It just means having to build them differently, which opens the door to creativity, which I really like in terms of building units. If a "bad" IV unit is obtained, a player can just wait until he or she gets another one with the right IVs if it's absolutely necessary. By that time, the past ones can just be merged into whichever favorable IV unit the player has or just be used as fodder.

 

TLDR: Good incentive for build variety (not everyone using the same build). Also, unit customization and making the best out of the resources you get (especially as a F2P player) makes up a good portion of the game's fun. Getting a bad IV unit isn't the end of the world as most can still work with "bad IVs" and can just be merged into a later pull or just be used as fodder.

 

Saving the obvious and less defendable from a gameplay perspective for last, it decreases income for IS and they might not be as interested in maintaining the game for a long time

7 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

especially when a unit's kit is designed to work with a particular stat (e.g. Ayra, the Myrrhs).

This part I do have to agree gets annoying sometimes. I can only think just change the weapon and treat them as a non-prf unit and build them their own way until a more favorable version is obtained.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Arcphoenix

[DefyingFates]

11 minutes ago, Arcphoenix said:

IMO being able to choose IVs kind of kills part of the whole point of IVs. IVs don't necessarily ruin a unit. Usually. It just means having to build them differently, which opens the door to creativity, which I really like in terms of building units. If a "bad" IV unit is obtained, a player can just wait until he or she gets another one with the right IVs if it's absolutely necessary. By that time, the past ones can just be merged into whichever favorable IV unit the player has or just be used as fodder.

 

TLDR: Good incentive for build variety, and unit customization makes up a good portion of the game's fun. Getting a bad IV unit isn't the end of the world as most can still work with "bad IVs" and can just be merged into a later pull or just be used as fodder.

 

Saving the obvious and less defendable from a gameplay perspective for last, it decreases income for IS and they might not be as interested in maintaining the game for a long time

This part I do have to agree gets annoying sometimes. I can only think just change the weapon and treat them as a non-prf unit and build them their own way until a more favorable version is obtained.

Noble, but what would you say about Seasonal Units, who only come by once or twice (if they're lucky enough to appear on a Legendary Banner) a year?

[Arcphoenix]

1 hour ago, DefyingFates said:

Noble, but what would you say about Seasonal Units, who only come by once or twice (if they're lucky enough to appear on a Legendary Banner) a year?

Nothing different, really. 

[Humanoid]

I would simply eliminate the concept of banes. Keep the boons, sure, they're fine since the idea is to make them feel like a bonus while removing the concept of being "punished" for being unlucky. Sure, in the end you still have good boons and ...less good boons, but the result is a smaller difference between the best and worst ones, but the most important aspect I think is the psychological one - you don't feel like anything is being taken away.

Not sure how to convert over neutral units though, but that's detail.

[Diovani Bressan]

17 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Sending units home give you a consumable item based on their boon. For example, sending home a +HP unit gives you a Seraph Robe. Sending home a +Spd unit gives you a Speedwings. Higher-rarity units give more items.

The idea of IV changing itens is cool, but it's only for boons right?

If you use a Seraph Robe, you will get a HP Boon to your unit, but for the bane your unit will get a random stat.

[redlight]

Make the send home generate a green and red stat booster. Green for boon and red for bane