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The State of Heroes


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@Mau The number of 5-exclusives is another reason to have more banners running. I don't think it being bloated is much of a problem though, since they only account for 3% of your summons. I agree that trimming the 3-4 pool (all of the launch 3-4s in particular)would be a good QOL change, nobody would whale for those units anyway.

 

re: armours and arena, they're not a problem at all. Fighting them is easy because you can always outrun them, predict how they move and manipulate their AI. I personally find ranged units, especially cavalry, and dancers to be a lot more annoying since they can outrun you and move in unpredictable ways.

You definitely don't need armours to be competitive: I have one crown, and I got that when I had no merged armours at all. With equal investment, the different between a core of three armours and three infantry mages is 8 points per match, 40 overall. That's likely to be a difference of one tier at the most.

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I don't feel like writing a wall of text, but I guess my main gripes with the game these days are mainly IS's slow rollout of new content and we need better new modes than stuff like tap battle and relay defense. I want more stuff like GHBs. Arena score creep also sucks and Duel skills haven't impacted arena enough yet for matches to be much more than trying to cut through armor teams with your babied bonus unit every week in higher tiers.

Overall I'm still enjoying the game, though. I just wish there was more to do with the new units I keep summoning, since the actual content(that you won't just auto-battle) rolls out at a fraction of the pace new banners do.

20 minutes ago, 1% Critical Hit said:

That was my point, I got Azura and she wasn't featured in the banner.

You cannot get non-focus units on a legendary banner.

Edited by Alkaid
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7 hours ago, 1% Critical Hit said:

[2018-03-29 - 2018-04-03] Legendary Heroes - Robin. 120 orbs and I got Brave Lucina because of the banner focus, then... 5* Azura.

38 minutes ago, 1% Critical Hit said:

That was my point, I got Azura and she wasn't featured in the banner.

Maybe you are confounding the banners... Azura was available on the Legendary Lucina Banner. Or you summoned in a different banner but think you were summoning in the Legendary Robin Banner.

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10 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Relatively speaking Gen 1 Armor also face the "issue" that used to be seen on Dragon where all of their stats are stereotyped by having nearly all of them as slow tanks. This make it not too hard to dismantle them through natural doubling. Remember that the reason BST creep originally happened is entirely because ranged offense turns out way better than they expected(literally one of the strongest effect in the game is Melee can counter ranged). Its really Gen 2 Armors where things started to get over the edge culminating in LTiki where if you give 180 BST 35 in every stats you still get 40/35/35/35/35. In all i don't think Gen 1 armor can be slapped on these BST disparity between Armors and other units issue

Most new Armor units still have that trait though. Aside from L!Tiki not many Armor units have high Spd to avoid doubles.
Instead they tend to have better mixed bulk with decent Atk now which translates into the infamous Breath+Bold Fighter+QP build that is powerful in both phases.
Before that they had either the drawback of having low Atk (like Gwendolyn or Sheena) or had low Res (Draug, Hector), so Armor units always had 1 distinct weakness aside from color disadvantage.

My point is they should have first introduced the Armor-exclusive skills before applying the BST bonus on them. I'm pretty sure that would have made Armors competitive enough and keep in mind that 175 BST armors could still have beena thing due to the Trainee bonus (see Amelia).

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

(2) deserves to have 1 movement range based on their attire or other factors. For example, Chrom's big winter coat, the Valentine characters' stiff clothing, or Tharja freezing to death.

I'm not an expert regarding women clothing but what exactly makes you think she freezes more than in her regular outfit?
Also try to apply this to the current Halloween banner. Niles, Myrrh or shirtless Dorcas, it simply doesn't work. They are just arbitrarily applying the Armored trait to anyone but have the gall to not give it to someone like Garon who is clearly qualified for that tag.

-----

One thing I didn't adress before is the discrepancy of rewards between the events.
I always look forward to TT because it offers a great amount of rewards. 42 Orbs in total, 2 Seals and free copies of a unit. Compared to that both GC and FB are very lacking, only offering half the Orbs and replacing the other free stuff with a low amount of stones and dew. Accessoires are just a cosmetic reward which does not much.
I think they should either distribute the rewards more evenly (at least between TT and FB) or increase the amount of existing rewards.
We don't have to talk about VG, that mode is just meme at this point. Though it is admittely good for fast Coin access.

Edited by The Priest
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Hm... Winter Robin and Winter Tharja artworks were already in the game when it launched in February 2017... I believe when IS was planning to release the game, Winter Tharja was not planned to be a Armored Unit, but the "popularity" of armored units in the arena probably made IS changes her from a Infantry unit to a Armored unit.
To have both Winter Robin and Winter Tharja in the data make me believe the game was schedule to be released before Christmas, but it was delayed, and I don't believe IS would release a ranged armored unit in it's first or second month. Winter Tharja would probably have a different skill set, probably without Vengeful Fighter, as well Winter Robin wouldn't have a Brazen skill.

I bring it because units like Tharja doesn make sense for being a armored unit.

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I'm honestly getting bored of Heroes, and this is not the first time I've felt like this. The content drought is a pretty serious problem that is making me, and people like me, turn away from at least picking up those monthly Orb deals. It makes me ill to think about the potential things they could introduce into Heroes that already exists within other gachas, yet they continue to sit on their millions as the game gets staler by the week.

Which leads on to the arena bonus scoring system. Babying all the kills to one unit is a real fucking chore, and is in no way fun, unless you've got a competent unit. In which case, you've still got 3 very capable units just sitting around buffing one unit to do all the killing. It's obvious this was introduced to get whales to spend on at least one new +10 each season. As long as this is padding out profits, there's going to be no changes to this rather shit arena system. Let's not even talk about those A-skills that makes units score higher as if they have 170 BST.

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3 hours ago, The Priest said:

I'm not an expert regarding women clothing but what exactly makes you think she freezes more than in her regular outfit?

The context of her release. Unlike regular Tharja and the Halloween units, winter Tharja has the seasonal context of winter, and the obvious association with that (for people living in temperate climates) is "it is cold in winter".

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3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The context of her release. Unlike regular Tharja and the Halloween units, winter Tharja has the seasonal context of winter, and the obvious association with that (for people living in temperate climates) is "it is cold in winter".

Just think of it as a southern hemisphere Christmas, and it works out.

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1 minute ago, Raven said:

Just think of it as a southern hemisphere Christmas, and it works out.

Summer is a terrible season and I can't imagine anyone having more than 1 movement range during the summer, armored or not. People who do move around in the summer must be superhuman or something.

Also, there is snow on the winter banner Paralogue maps, so that argument doesn't really work.

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Summer is a terrible season and I can't imagine anyone having more than 1 movement range during the summer, armored or not. People who do move around in the summer must be superhuman or something.

Also, there is snow on the winter banner Paralogue maps, so that argument doesn't really work.

A way I can see a Summer armor unit working is by having several swimming tubes on, or a sand castle build around a person.

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I think the fact some people can go without specific fodder for such a long time sucks so a way to buy specific skill fodder is very much needed or else your builds can come to a halt and you're forced to improvise or wait. Using arena medals for this would be ideal as they need more uses. 

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33 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I think the fact some people can go without specific fodder for such a long time sucks so a way to buy specific skill fodder is very much needed or else your builds can come to a halt and you're forced to improvise or wait. Using arena medals for this would be ideal as they need more uses. 

this is pretty much my main gripe with heroes atm. All the best skills are locked to 5 star or seasonal which makes building specific units a huge hassle cause like you said you have to improvise or whip out the credit card and hope by some miracle you get the fodder you want which in some instances is better than the unit you're trying to build. We really just need more ways of obtaining some of those 5 star exclusive skills.

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51 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I think the fact some people can go without specific fodder for such a long time sucks so a way to buy specific skill fodder is very much needed or else your builds can come to a halt and you're forced to improvise or wait. Using arena medals for this would be ideal as they need more uses. 

Pretty much me with Distant Defense. I remember when it was desirable as fodder. Eventually Garon became available as a free unit with access to Distant Defense. However, I'm so used to not needing the skill, especially since I already have the seal. I'm all like "Who actually needs Distant Defense for their A-slot?".

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19 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

this is pretty much my main gripe with heroes atm. All the best skills are locked to 5 star or seasonal which makes building specific units a huge hassle cause like you said you have to improvise or whip out the credit card and hope by some miracle you get the fodder you want which in some instances is better than the unit you're trying to build. We really just need more ways of obtaining some of those 5 star exclusive skills.

That's another problem that there are some niche skills that can be useful but not universally so and not worth pulling for especially on non main units. 

2 minutes ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Pretty much me with Distant Defense. I remember when it was desirable as fodder. Eventually Garon became available as a free unit with access to Distant Defense. However, I'm so used to not needing the skill, especially since I already have the seal. I'm all like "Who actually needs Distant Defense for their A-slot?".

Yeah and you have to use 20k feathers even though it's only desirably on some of my non main units so I can't be bothered to spend 20k feathers. 

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Quote

 

1. I'll take this further, I'm not okay with them releasing higher BST units.  So it isn't even the pace, it should never happen in the first place.  Armors should have stayed at 170 BST max.  All the other gen2/3 BST should have never happened.  Release interesting skills, and more varied stat spreads, don't just keep releasing min maxed units with higher and higher BST and sometimes strict power creep of existing units.  He pointed out Mia, Zelgius, Legendary Ike and yes all three are disgusting.  They make three other units completely obsolete.  Giving old units BST boost would be nice.  It also does discourage some from spending money, hey you can spend a lot to +10 this unit now, except much better unit will come in a few months!  

2. I think the amount of content is fine.  I just wish we got story chapters at a much brisker pace, at least once every two weeks.  Also more dialogue and writing in these.  I don't think this will distract at all from Three Houses and I hope that whoever has been writing the story chapters for Heroes is NOT on the Three Houses team...that wouldn't bode well for the game.

3. Disagree about lack of orbs.  I think more banners the better.  Yes you can't get every single unit, FTP, but that is fine.  Pick the banners you want to summon on.  Essentially besides the legendary banner we don't have more 'new' banners than before, we have seasonal banner usually month long, once inawhile new hero banner, and end of month legendary banner.  The rest are old units on skill banners, new power banners, bound battle, TT, seasonal repeats, etc.  His estimates on how many units you can get with 300 orbs is correct however.  Firstly he isn't talking about legendary banners which have a much higher rate.  He is speaking of new hero and seasonal banners.  The average to pull a unit give or take depending on color is around 150 orbs.  So the average person will get 2 focus units per month.  He is not counting off focus pity breakers.  

4. I kind of agree, kind of disagree.  Yes most of the best skills are 5 star locked, but I don't think a free player can be expected (I'm a free player before anyone yells at me) to get the most expensive builds for every unit they pull.  I do think some 5 star skills should be demoted.  Hone fliers for one, building flier teams should not be 5 star locked (and on a single unit in the regular pool no less).  Panic ploy can drop too, heavy blade, since there are seals for it and it is niche use.  I think they are gradually doing this, like we just got Steady stance in the 4 star pool thanks to silas.

5. I always laugh when people complain about dragons which are easy to counter, except for you know armor dragons cause they are ARMORS.  Yes armors get the strongest skills, get to dump stats without penalty, get the highest stats, etc.  However armors are the premiere whale bait, so I guess a necessary evil? 

6. Arena scoring.  The scoring system for arena is stupid.  People can't use the units they want to use unless those are armors, or they use lower BST units with high merges.  So you are penalized severely for using lower BST units, especially stuff like ranged cavalry.  Also the SP system is also dumb leading to many people putting unoptimal skills just to 'score' better.  I don't know how to fix it, but arena the mode where you should be able to build a team for pure efficiency based on preference is a failure in that regard.  It also makes arena at higher levels less varied.  

7. Yup, I've said this since the amazing here is Black knight without his mask, ta da!  Or here is Erika on a horse, for some sort of reason.  Seasonals are one thing, and it is better if new faces don't debut there since the themes are often silly.  However alts have no business being on NEW HERO banners.  I think maybe they are finally realizing this, the door of destiny banner no alts.  The Fates banner, no alts.  Muspell generals, obviously no alts.  Hopefully it is the last we see of alts on new hero banners.  Yes and it does greatly slow how many new faces get added to the game.  So it is terrible.  Probably lucrative, but hey too bad for those whose favorite character isn't in the game yet you'll be waiting a lot longer or maybe forever. 

8. Yeah I think someone did the numbers on this, there are about as many males as females, however a far greater percentage of females are 5 star locked units and a far greater percentage of males are free units on top of that.  Of course seasonals are heavily skewed towards females.  It isn't right or fair.  However the vast majority of whales are male.  The majority of males are straight.  So financially this is the most profitable probably.

 

I put this in the general discussion thread when it is was first brought up so though I'd drop it here in the dedicated thread.  

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15 hours ago, Garlyle said:

@Johann The difference between rewards is not that huge in Arena, and progression is also based on percentage, which is fine. The gap between rewards is much bigger in Arena Assault, where the top players can get 30 RS and SC (which is amazing), but most people are not going to get even half of that. AA has the same scoring issue as Arena.

yeah I think we all can agree that AA reward tiers are messed up and have long needed a revision

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8 hours ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Pretty much me with Distant Defense. I remember when it was desirable as fodder. Eventually Garon became available as a free unit with access to Distant Defense. However, I'm so used to not needing the skill, especially since I already have the seal. I'm all like "Who actually needs Distant Defense for their A-slot?".

Oh man, the exact same happened to me. It took so long to get fodder for it I don't even care anymore.

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I doubt a lot of the things the game could change will get fixed. Arena definitely won’t get fixed anytime soon. I expect IS will do something that triggers both whales and F2P players and as a result, cause the game to shut down

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8 hours ago, Poimagic said:

I doubt a lot of the things the game could change will get fixed. Arena definitely won’t get fixed anytime soon. I expect IS will do something that triggers both whales and F2P players and as a result, cause the game to shut down

I think they are atm at a crucial point where book 3 and its "new" modes or whatever decide the fate of heroes. I believe all will boil down to that and it will either revitalize it or it will be such a complete miss that people will leave. They seriously need to step up their game with fun/challenging/engaging content and the ways people can built characters and be competitiv with them. The recent implementation of Duell skill however is dictating that the course they have taken will be fail...

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35 minutes ago, Hilda said:

The recent implementation of Duell skill however is dictating that the course they have taken will be fail...

I'm not seeing anything that's forcing them to fail.

A solution that I think would actually work out rather well is if they made all of the Duel skills available as Combat Manuals, perhaps bought with Arena Medallions (after they fix the randomness of how many medallions are rewarded per run). This gives all players pretty much equal access to the skills and also helps prevent future banners from being clogged up with the remaining Duel skills.

 

I also think Duel skills and the Arena as a whole will be much less of an issue to players if it weren't the only real endgame mode.

Add something like the tower or ruins from Sacred Stones. It could be a game mode similar to Tempest Trials, but with maybe 50-100 maps in a row and curated enemy builds on higher floors (and a "boss floor" every tenth floor or something like that). Rewards would be determined simply by how many floors the player completed before running out of teams.

Have it cost a large chunk of stamina to attempt. Add the ability to pause and resume a run so that you can do other things and not be locked into the run. Have rewards include things like 4-star Combat Manuals of limited reward characters (or a currency to buy them from a shop to remove the need to rotate rewards and silly things like that).

Props if they actually include maps inspired by maps from the tower or ruins.

 

I think players would be more accepting of the restrictions that the Arena imposes if there were other permanent game modes that don't have restrictions, but still gave comparable rewards for achievement.

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16 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm not seeing anything that's forcing them to fail.

A solution that I think would actually work out rather well is if they made all of the Duel skills available as Combat Manuals, perhaps bought with Arena Medallions (after they fix the randomness of how many medallions are rewarded per run). This gives all players pretty much equal access to the skills and also helps prevent future banners from being clogged up with the remaining Duel skills.

 

no the simple and best solution would have been to implement the 170 BST calculation into the blessings, when the unit runs with the matching legendary hero... period. So simple yet so effectiv.

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1 hour ago, Hilda said:

no the simple and best solution would have been to implement the 170 BST calculation into the blessings, when the unit runs with the matching legendary hero... period. So simple yet so effectiv.

The boat has already sailed. Duel skills are already out. Any solution that doesn't include the existence of the Duel skills is a moot point.

We can argue all we want about "the best solution without Duel skills", but none of those will ever be relevant unless you have a time machine (because I don't).

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

The boat has already sailed. Duel skills are already out. Any solution that doesn't include the existence of the Duel skills is a moot point.

We can argue all we want about "the best solution without Duel skills", but none of those will ever be relevant unless you have a time machine (because I don't).

hence why i said the direction IS is taking is indicating fail for book 3 period. Decisions like those tell you where they are heading towards.

Edited by Hilda
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1 minute ago, Hilda said:

hence why i said the direction IS is taking is indicating fail for book 3 period. Decisions like those tell you where they are heading towards.

"Sub-optimal" and "fail" are not the same thing. And honestly, who are you to say that the situation was handled sub-optimally? Have you thought of all of the possible consequences of other options? Are you sure they will turn out better both for the player base and the longevity of the game?

I personally find the Duel skills an acceptable way to handle the situation as long as the follow-up is handled well, which is exactly what my last-last post highlights. Perhaps not the best option at their disposal, but certainly not one that physically cannot work out in the end.

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