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I have no issue with old units having less BST because it is much easier to +10 those old units than the new units and helps you find better IVs as well. My +10 Nino would wipe the floor with the Nino or Lewyn alt. 

Giving old units the same BST would mean there's no point to roll for new heroes when old heroes have far better availability for merges. 

Edited by Icelerate
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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

"Sub-optimal" and "fail" are not the same thing. And honestly, who are you to say that the situation was handled sub-optimally? Have you thought of all of the possible consequences of other options? Are you sure they will turn out better both for the player base and the longevity of the game?

I personally find the Duel skills an acceptable way to handle the situation as long as the follow-up is handled well, which is exactly what my last-last post highlights. Perhaps not the best option at their disposal, but certainly not one that physically cannot work out in the end.

it is fail from a consumer point of view. you can turn it around how you want. people that have favourite units (mind you they invested in them as much as others with +10 armorers) that  are ranged units are forced to invest into duell skills if they want to get the most out of Arena. Instead of giving more incentiv/meaning to what was allready implemented with blessings, they opted for the way of money cash grabing. couple that with the recent 180 BST armor releases and all the armor crap we have been getting (2 armorers in the new CYL) + new assists and you can clearly see where IS wants to go. They dont give a damn about balancing arena. I know companies want to make money and thats fine, but there is a fine greedy line where you jump over it, consumers start to get on to you and get pissed. IS just happened to cross that line with the Duell skills on top of all the other stuff. And i dont need to know the outcome of every possibility, because the possibility they chose was the one that turns people more and more away.

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21 minutes ago, Hilda said:

I know companies want to make money and thats fine, but there is a fine greedy line where you jump over it, consumers start to get on to you and get pissed. IS just happened to cross that line with the Duell skills on top of all the other stuff. And i dont need to know the outcome of every possibility, because the possibility they chose was the one that turns people more and more away.

I agree with being less enthusiastic about Arena. With the huge discrepancy in scoring between ranged ponies and melee units for the past few months, I just gave up on staying in Tier 20 and settle for Tier 19.5. There is a limit to how high I can fish and the new bonus kill mechanic is not helping either.

I am not sure if Intelligent Systems crossed that line yet though, since lines are kind of blurry until you actually cross them. I would give them at least a few months to see if they introduce additional changes in response to player feedback.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I personally find the Duel skills an acceptable way to handle the situation as long as the follow-up is handled well, which is exactly what my last-last post highlights. Perhaps not the best option at their disposal, but certainly not one that physically cannot work out in the end.

21 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I think players would be more accepting of the restrictions that the Arena imposes if there were other permanent game modes that don't have restrictions, but still gave comparable rewards for achievement.

It would be nice if they release Arena 2.0 without all the arbitrary scoring criteria, and I actually think that seems to be the best option from the player's point of view since it basically means more rewards and there would be less pressure to do well in Arena 1.0.

However, I do not think they are willing to do that, and if they do, I am not confident that they will release Arena 2.0 in a way that players would be happy with.

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2 hours ago, Icelerate said:

I have no issue with old units having less BST because it is much easier to +10 those old units than the new units and helps you find better IVs as well. My +10 Nino would wipe the floor with the Nino or Lewyn alt. 

Giving old units the same BST would mean there's no point to roll for new heroes when old heroes have far better availability for merges. 

Agreed, but I also understand the concern because we are having meta defying units in industrial quantities

 

I recall being bored with FEH last year, even before Book I’s end. The only reason I didn’t leave it definitely was because the Brave Heroes. I think so many alt heroes hurt the game to a degree. We get them every other week. Hell, even legendaries kinda lost their appeal as well

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In my view every issue brought up in the OP is small bananas compared to #2, relating to the game's events.  It's not so much that we have droughts of content -- we certainly get a steady stream of challenge maps, TTs, Voting Gauntlets, Grand Conquest, etc. each month.  The issue for me stems more from lack of variety.  After 15 of them plus several minis, I can't get excited about a new Tempest Trial beyond whatever the rewards are.  While it has gotten some much needed QoL changes over time, the core gameplay behind it hasn't changed in any meaningful way.  I don't even want to think about modes like Voting Gauntlet and Tap Battle.  Even with relatively new events like Forging Bonds it's become a matter of going through the motions.  Hoorah, time to play some repurposed Training Tower maps over and over again, as if I wasn't already sick of those from the same old monthly quests that haven't changed in more than a year.

I am not a game developer, nor am I well acquainted with any.  I cannot pretend to understand what goes on in IS's studios or what thought process is driving FEH's event monotony.  Yet as an outsider knowing how the game has surpassed $400 million in worldwide revenue, it's hard to keep the thought worming into my mind that IS is resting on their laurels.  I can only hope big things are planned for the future, or that money is going towards other FE projects.    

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8 hours ago, Hilda said:

it is fail from a consumer point of view. you can turn it around how you want. people that have favourite units (mind you they invested in them as much as others with +10 armorers) that  are ranged units are forced to invest into duell skills if they want to get the most out of Arena.

Did you even bother to read my original post or are you just arguing with me for the sake of disagreeing?

As long as the Duel skills become reasonably obtainable, there is no "investing" in them necessary.

The entire rest of your post is just ranting about grubby hands and "I don't like what they did, so now they're going to go out of business".

 

8 hours ago, XRay said:

It would be nice if they release Arena 2.0 without all the arbitrary scoring criteria, and I actually think that seems to be the best option from the player's point of view since it basically means more rewards and there would be less pressure to do well in Arena 1.0.

However, I do not think they are willing to do that, and if they do, I am not confident that they will release Arena 2.0 in a way that players would be happy with.

What we have is "Arena 2.0". "Arena 1.0" was the pile of terribleness where Fury 3 was the only viable A skill for scoring. You mean "Arena 3.0".

Either way, it's not that they aren't willing to throw out the stat total part of the scoring criteria, but that they really can't do it anymore. As I've already said, the boat has already sailed. Any change to Arena scoring based on stat totals necessarily must come with a change to the Duel skills to make them just as viable as they are now.

I understand that people don't like the current state of the Arena, but whining and bitching about what they "should" have done or "burn the whole thing down and start over again" are not constructive because neither of those are at all feasible in the situation. Doing so is identical to a person whose car is stuck in a ditch asking you for help and the only advice you give them is "don't drive your car into a ditch in the first place" or "abandon it and go buy a new car".

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23 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Either way, it's not that they aren't willing to throw out the stat total part of the scoring criteria, but that they really can't do it anymore.

Well, you can throw BST out the window and keep BST at the same by simply releasing Arena 3.0. I am not sure how difficult implementing a third Arena mode is, but I do not think it is too hard since it is basically the same as Arena 2.0 but with a different scoring formula.

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12 minutes ago, XRay said:

Well, you can throw BST out the window and keep BST at the same by simply releasing Arena 3.0. I am not sure how difficult implementing a third Arena mode is, but I do not think it is too hard since it is basically the same as Arena 2.0 but with a different scoring formula.

Why exactly would players want to participate in three different Arena modes every single week?

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Just now, Ice Dragon said:

Why exactly would players want to participate in three different Arena modes every single week?

More rewards. Assuming the exact same format besides the scoring formula and bonus unit, that is another 3,000 Feathers, 1 Orb, 10 Sacred Coins, and 10 Refining Stones on top of your rank reward.

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7 minutes ago, XRay said:

More rewards. Assuming the exact same format besides the scoring formula and bonus unit, that is another 3,000 Feathers, 1 Orb, 10 Sacred Coins, and 10 Refining Stones on top of your rank reward.

Yes, technically that is the answer, but that's obviously not the spirit of my question.

So let's rephrase the question since you seemed to want to be a smart-aleck about it: What makes you think a third Arena mode will not result in player burnout or complaints to that effect?

From what I've seen of the threads we've had about what events players like and dislike, there's a fair number of us who dislike various events due to requiring too much effort, even if the rewards would be worth the effort if taken in a vacuum (i.e. if there weren't other things going on at the same time).

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19 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

So let's rephrase the question since you seemed to want to be a smart-aleck about it: What makes you think a third Arena mode will not result in player burnout or complaints to that effect?

From what I've seen of the threads we've had about what events players like and dislike, there's a fair number of us who dislike various events due to requiring too much effort, even if the rewards would be worth the effort if taken in a vacuum (i.e. if there weren't other things going on at the same time).

Since scraping Arena 2.0 is out of the question and you suggested having other modes as end game content, implementing Arena 3.0 and having three Arena modes is the best solution I can think of.

I do not think burn out is a huge issue unless the mode takes a lot of time. The only reason Arena takes any amount of time is because we need to fish. If we did not need to fish, 5 straight wins is pretty easy and quick.

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24 minutes ago, XRay said:

Since scraping Arena 2.0 is out of the question and you suggested having other modes as end game content, implementing Arena 3.0 and having three Arena modes is the best solution I can think of.

It's just Arena with a different scoring system, right? I don't think burnout is a problem, but it's more of the same.

New game modes should be something that hasn't been done before in Heroes. Even something as simple as recreating the My Castle feature from Fates, giving players the ability to create RD sized maps with their units and challenge other players' maps.

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Feels like you stole my thunder about how people feel about FEH, but that would apply that I care. And I really, really don't

 

Either way, being on FEH reddit for awhile now & it looks like people rather be angry that actually enjoy it. There's a salt thread about newest banner that gets more karma point than the hype thread , so I'm not going to take anyone's complaint on reddit without any value anymore

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On 10/19/2018 at 9:04 AM, Diovani Bressan said:

Maybe you are confounding the banners... Azura was available on the Legendary Lucina Banner. Or you summoned in a different banner but think you were summoning in the Legendary Robin Banner.

I'm definitely confounding the banners! A friend helped me to realize what banner was.

I'm still angry at she being 5*, though...

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1 hour ago, daisy jane said:

 

me too
and i need her for my infantry non mage blue dancer/singer. 

That same friend proposed me the idea of trading units like Pokémon, but using Pokémon GO rules which I didn't knew before until she told me (IVs change randomly and you can't trade that Pokémon again), or they could lower the rating from, let's say 5* to 3*.

That would be so cool and nice to help and expand the utility of the Friend List, but it seems sorta impossible because it breaks the thing about the game being based in the gacha model. I still would like the trade to be a thing, though...

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7 minutes ago, 1% Critical Hit said:

That same friend proposed me the idea of trading units like Pokémon, but using Pokémon GO rules which I didn't knew before until she told me (IVs change randomly and you can't trade that Pokémon again), or they could lower the rating from, let's say 5* to 3*.

That would be so cool and nice to help and expand the utility of the Friend List, but it seems sorta impossible because it breaks the thing about the game being based in the gacha model. I still would like the trade to be a thing, though...

honestly. I've stated i would be happy raising a Hector or an Azura or whomever from 3* up. have like a special. "Any Ranking ____ Banner." you still spend the orbs, it's still random. so you still get your gatcha-money moment. but it's not just 5* stuff. i think that would be cool.

but as that will never happen. i will just wait until Azura (and like eleventymillion others i want) are on legendaries and hopefully i can snag one. like. Karla/Miaciah were my goals last Legendary and I got Tiki, Bridal Tharja and Spring Catria instead.

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1 hour ago, daisy jane said:

honestly. I've stated i would be happy raising a Hector or an Azura or whomever from 3* up. have like a special. "Any Ranking ____ Banner." you still spend the orbs, it's still random. so you still get your gatcha-money moment. but it's not just 5* stuff. i think that would be cool.

but as that will never happen. i will just wait until Azura (and like eleventymillion others i want) are on legendaries and hopefully i can snag one. like. Karla/Miaciah were my goals last Legendary and I got Tiki, Bridal Tharja and Spring Catria instead.

And Azura is not that different from other dancers, she needs to be demoted.

I wanted Spring Catria! D:
I usually never get anything on seasonal banners, except for Bridal Caeda, she was the last seasonal I could get.

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Have to jump in on the arena topic.  Duel skills suck.  While armors get to run Death Blow 4, Distant counter, Steady Breath, whatever super powered A skill they want....ranged units run HP+5 which is one of the crappiest A skills there is.  Like no one runs HP+5.  So essentially low BST units have to greatly neuter their efficiency and performance by having virtually no A skill just to score....well 2 bins below Legendary Tiki.  For Whales pulling for a 5 star locked A skill isn't a problem, but think of this...they are pulling extra Laegjarns, Lokis...to give the units they want to use in arena HP+5.  It isn't like pulling for distant counter, swift sparrow, etc.  As for the ship sailing it sucks but it is likely true.  Now that they started with the terrible idea of these duel skills, they can't undo it.  They can't all of a sudden drop BST as a factor in arena scoring, the backlash would be too much.  They should create another arena mode, but I doubt that will happen. 

I love this week cause I am in tier 19.  Meaning I can use whatever team I want regardless of BST or SP skills.  That is how it should be every week for every person.  Build the most combat efficient team to battle other arena teams.  

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4 hours ago, 1% Critical Hit said:

they could lower the rating from, let's say 5* to 3*.

That is actually a good thing as it is easier to farm for SP, and 22,000 Feathers is not that hard to obtain.

Edited by XRay
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8 hours ago, Lewyn said:

 So essentially low BST units have to greatly neuter their efficiency and performance by having virtually no A skill

That would have been a fair complaint several months ago, but people bringing up performance as a point is comical in the current support/babysitter meta that is Bonus Unit Kills. Just like how the Duel ship has sailed, so has the concept of being good at killing (except for the bonus unit of course). A good (cored) support unit now doesn't need to enter combat at all outside of specialized chipper builds. This is similar to how old Arena played out, where the bonus unit would probably just sit in a corner while your beloved core wins the match.

I think Duel skills are a band-aid for sure, but they're certainly the best ones we've gotten so far to alleviate the problems of 'lack of variety in high arena defense teams' and 'incapable of using some low bst units in high arena offense.'

Ironically I think IS have shot themselves in the foot in a different way, in that they may have unintentionally lowered the desire to pull 'powerful' units to use in arena, as their strength would become worthless after their bonus season has ended.

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2 hours ago, Azuni said:

Ironically I think IS have shot themselves in the foot in a different way, in that they may have unintentionally lowered the desire to pull 'powerful' units to use in arena, as their strength would become worthless after their bonus season has ended.

That is an interesting perspective. Maybe that is why they released Kliff with low Atk.

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38 minutes ago, XRay said:

That is an interesting perspective. Maybe that is why they released Kliff with low Atk.

It's more likely they needed an excuse to implement Fortify Def/Res and an effect that activates based on having lower Atk.

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Hi guys, well im a new player to this game...Started last month+- and to be fair i was asking myself the same questions.

Im not even close to be a veteran in the game...Completed all my quests in all modes and going over the ranks...But even me as a noob is having problems with this bst and need to use armor to rank. I don´t like armor characters, i don´t like using them....and its kind of boring have to use them in arena every single time. Hell even the bonus (now dorcas) that the game is giving is a f.ing armor =.="

I have so much fun theorycrafting new teams, merges and etc that in the end would not be used to much content, hell even pve my team right now using dorcas/LTiki/Zelgius/L.Hector destroy everything...And i look at the other units and just don´t see the point of using another stuff even in pve, maybe if i want to challenge myself or waste my time. =/

It´s kind of sad because this game is RLY good!

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