poll Should the weapon triangle return?

[henrymidfields]

Do what I think GBA games used to do.

Make Anima mages as the sword users equivalent, higher accuracy and dodge with less power. Sages can be the Hero equivalent, with generally above average speed and decent power, while Trobadours can be the nomadtrooper/swordmaster equivalent with high viability in avoid-tanking.

Light users have a bit of everything, with high Luck, and they can be the equivalent of lance-wielding knights, though trading movement with healing. They can also have skills that would boost their physical defense, presumably thanks to the grace of God.

Dark magic users such as Druids and especially necromancers can be the ax-users. Druids could be the warrior-turned-hero, while summoners could be the Berserkers trading crit boosts with summoning phantoms.

Edited November 13, 2018 by henrymidfields

[CapnStix]

Swords beats Axe beats Spears. Anima beats Light beats Dark. That is really straightforward and simple to me.

[Shadow Mir]

12 hours ago, anikom15 said:

You already gave your opinion once. There’s no need to spam it.

Fair, but I fail to fathom why the magic triangle gets so much support for being so meaningless. Either the power gap between the units is not significant enough for them to be doing much to each other, or one unit outclasses the other so badly that it's meaningless. It doesn't help that mages in general tend to have high resistance, meaning it's about as sensible as throwing a thief at a knight (extreme example, but still). Point is, the games end up discouraging mage vs mage combat... which the magic triangle assumes is going to happen reasonably often when it shouldn't (and probably doesn't because mages tend to be a minority in both the player's and enemy's forces anyhow).

Edited November 13, 2018 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Fair, but I fail to fathom why the magic triangle gets so much support for being so meaningless. Either the power gap between the units is not significant enough for them to be doing much to each other, or one unit outclasses the other so badly that it's meaningless. It doesn't help that mages in general tend to have high resistance, meaning it's about as sensible as throwing a thief at a knight (extreme example, but still). Point is, the games end up discouraging mage vs mage combat... which the magic triangle assumes is going to happen reasonably often when it shouldn't (and probably doesn't because mages tend to be a minority in both the player's and enemy's forces anyhow).

Third time you're presented the same opinion. Are you going to go for four if I quote you?

[Shadow Mir]

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Third time you're presented the same opinion. Are you going to go for four if I quote you?

Nah. I was just expounding on my train of thought in the post you quoted.

[Serea-chan]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Third time you're presented the same opinion. Are you going to go for four if I quote you?

Exactly what is wrong with sticking to your opinion? For me I'm not going to change my opinion until I see evidence that supports the other side of the argument. And can't you just agree to disagree? Eesh. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Serea-chan said:

Exactly what is wrong with sticking to your opinion? For me I'm not going to change my opinion until I see evidence that supports the other side of the argument. And can't you just agree to disagree? Eesh. 

Who's not agreeing to disagree?

[Serea-chan]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Are you going to go for four if I quote you?

If you've gone around in circles four times I don't see either of you really agreeing to disagree. 

[Jotari]

15 minutes ago, Serea-chan said:

If you've gone around in circles four times I don't see either of you really agreeing to disagree. 

I didn't even make any statement on it to begin with. I just found it amusing that right after someone quoted him about redundantly restating his opinon, Mir went and restated it again.

[Serea-chan]

tbh I just thought Mir was trying to back up his opinion not spam it. I too see the logic of not sending two mages at each other given they have similar stats.  

[ElectiveToast]

Someone explain the problem with an RGB triangle. Because as far as I can see, it’s a nice way to compact everything into a single, efficient system. 

[Serea-chan]

2 minutes ago, ElectiveToast said:

Someone explain the problem with an RGB triangle.

For mages? Typically a Mage has decent resistance so sending a mage to hit with magic isn't your smartest move WTA or not. That and I'm not sure I want all my mages restricted to one type of tome based on color. Then you have to add in whether or not you want dark or light magic. So on top of remembering Light beats Dark, Dark beats Anima and Anima beats light, you also have to remember Grass beats Water, Water beats Fire, Fire beats Grass, it's sorta convoluted to have a weapon triangle within a weapon triangle.I don't want weaponception.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Serea-chan said:

For mages? Typically a Mage has decent resistance so sending a mage to hit with magic isn't your smartest move WTA or not. That and I'm not sure I want all my mages restricted to one type of tome based on color. Then you have to add in whether or not you want dark or light magic. So on top of remembering Light beats Dark, Dark beats Anima and Anima beats light, you also have to remember Grass beats Water, Water beats Fire, Fire beats Grass, it's sorta convoluted to have a weapon triangle within a weapon triangle.I don't want weaponception.

Pretty sure they mean a unified weapon and magic triangle ala Heroes.

[ElectiveToast]

2 minutes ago, Serea-chan said:

For mages? Typically a Mage has decent resistance so sending a mage to hit with magic isn't your smartest move WTA or not. That and I'm not sure I want all my mages restricted to one type of tome based on color. Then you have to add in whether or not you want dark or light magic. So on top of remembering Light beats Dark, Dark beats Anima and Anima beats light, you also have to remember Grass beats Water, Water beats Fire, Fire beats Grass, it's sorta convoluted to have a weapon triangle within a weapon triangle.I don't want weaponception.

Easy enough. Every tome color will have light and dark variants which will require special skills to wield. Dark tomes grant more damage against physical units, light tomes grant more damage against other mages. However, the WTA will only decide hit/avo advantage rather than damage. Damage will be decided by the offense stats and the level of the weapon minus the defense stats of the opponent. 

 

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Pretty sure they mean a unified weapon and magic triangle ala Heroes.

Yes, that is what I was talking about in general. 

[Serea-chan]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Pretty sure they mean a unified weapon and magic triangle ala Heroes.

They could've meant that but I am asking them for clarification. It's the first thing I asked.

To that I say let Heroes be it's own thing, it's kinda watered down Fire Emblem imo. Mainly because I love classes that can use more than one weapon.

EDIT: Thanks for clarifying ElectiveToast. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Serea-chan

[ElectiveToast]

11 minutes ago, Serea-chan said:

They could've meant that but I am asking them for clarification. It's the first thing I asked.

To that I say let Heroes be it's own thing, it's kinda watered down Fire Emblem imo. Mainly because I love classes that can use more than one weapon.

EDIT: Thanks for clarifying ElectiveToast. 

Never said the units only had to wield one weapon. 

[Serea-chan]

3 minutes ago, ElectiveToast said:

Never said the units only had to wield one weapon. 

I thought the point of Heroes triangle was to simplify the weapon triangle enough for it to fit on mobile devices. This is a mainline Switch title we're talking about I think the Switch can handle more complex tactics. Then we have to count in grey units such as Daggers, Bows and Healers, they're outside the colored weapon triangle now and could have an unfair advantage. 

[ElectiveToast]

11 minutes ago, Serea-chan said:

I thought the point of Heroes triangle was to simplify the weapon triangle enough for it to fit on mobile devices. This is a mainline Switch title we're talking about I think the Switch can handle more complex tactics. Then we have to count in grey units such as Daggers, Bows and Healers, they're outside the colored weapon triangle now and could have an unfair advantage. 

That was the original intent, but I think the RGB WTA is a system that is so simple and efficient that even mentally handicapped people can understand it. And yes, I have thought about colorless weapons being in an RGB weapon triangle, and here’s what I could conjure. 

 

Swords, bows, and fire tomes are red. 

 

Axes, daggers, and wind tomes are green. 

 

Lances, crossbows, and thunder magic are blue. 

 

Staves are colorless and all weapon types will have an advantage against them. As for light and dark magic, refer to my previous post. 

  

Edited November 13, 2018 by ElectiveToast

[Serea-chan]

Rather than that let's not make a second triangle but give ranged their own niche.

Bows have 1-3 range.

Magic can inflict certain types of damage to certain types of units, encouraging you to pack all kinds of different tomes.

Daggers like in Fates can inflict stat penalties.

 

[ElectiveToast]

1 hour ago, Serea-chan said:

Rather than that let's not make a second triangle but give ranged their own niche.

Bows have 1-3 range.

Magic can inflict certain types of damage to certain types of units, encouraging you to pack all kinds of different tomes.

Daggers like in Fates can inflict stat penalties.

 

Flying units are weak to wind, heavy units are weak to thunder, light units are weak to fire. 

[RexBolt]

48 minutes ago, ElectiveToast said:

Flying units are weak to wind, heavy units are weak to thunder, light units are weak to fire. 

I don't think "light" and "heavy" units have ever been a thing, at least not to determine what a weapon is effective against.

Just go the simple route and say Armor and Cavalry.

[Shadow Mir]

On 10/21/2018 at 6:34 AM, silveraura25 said:

I would like it to return, but to not have it on the highest difficulty

No. Just no. Radiant Dawn did that, and it was a big mistake. I also think arbitrarily removing mechanics is NOT a good way to increase difficulty.

On 10/21/2018 at 7:22 AM, vanguard333 said:

The fact that the axe has the advantage over lances and a lot of enemies are usually lance-wielders is a part of what makes axe-wielding classes useful. 

I dunno... That was only true in SD and the games from 7 to 9. Though I won't mind if someone else can chime in and correct me if I happen to be wrong. Anyway, the only time I got much use out of axes is when they were a secondary option for a class - most primary axe users tend to be lackluster at best.

[ElectiveToast]

1 hour ago, RexBolt said:

I don't think "light" and "heavy" units have ever been a thing, at least not to determine what a weapon is effective against.

Just go the simple route and say Armor and Cavalry.

God forbid the designers innovate and try something new. 

 

 

Edit: Oh wait, nvm. I’m dumb. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by ElectiveToast

[RexBolt]

30 minutes ago, ElectiveToast said:

God forbid the designers innovate and try something new. 

 

 

Edit: Oh wait, nvm. I’m dumb. 

Yeah, i mean, when was the last time weith/constitution was even a stat in the game, RD?

I have seen some advocate for the return of the stat, but i don't think it being gone changed much important, what with Rescue being gone and Capture being changed. 

Plus, this may be a bit exaustive, but i found it kinda sexist how female characters always had it lower than males of the same class, some mounted/armored girls were even lower than infantry guys.

[ElectiveToast]

2 minutes ago, RexBolt said:

Yeah, i mean, when was the last time weith/constitution was even a stat in the game, RD?

I have seen some advocate for the return of the stat, but i don't think it being gone changed much important, what with Rescue being gone and Capture being changed. 

Plus, this may be a bit exaustive, but i found it kinda sexist how female characters always had it lower than males of the same class, some mounted/armored girls were even lower than infantry guys.

From what I heard, Japanese aren’t big on butch characters. At least, not butch appearance/stature.