Fates' exp system is broken

[Ertrick36]

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

With the caveat that the tier list isn't mine, I didn't even participate in its creation, and I don't intend to speak for every decision on it:

If you think Felicia is just a "feeble healbot" then that's on you. While she's not as good as Jakob, she shares many of his advantages - joins early, provides an outstanding boost to Corrin, gets access to skills 20 levels earlier than most units (Inspiration at 15 with a Heart Seal is a particular coup). She even has pretty good combat if you want to Heart Seal her to Hero immediately, on paper (I've never done it). Oboro and Takumi are just vanilla combat units who are outclassed by upper-tiers (e.g. Oboro is pretty much just a directly inferior Hinoka).

Yukimura joins with something like... seven maps left, actually? Forget the number, but certainly more than three. He also raises your entire party's hit by 5 just by existing, and his stats are fine (good bulk, average offence, high weapon ranks in both bows and shuriken). He slots solidly into the party as your number of unit slots expands lategame. That's not bad! Mozu... well, y'know, she's the subject of debates due to playstyle. I'll just say that I agree that she's bad and leave it at that. She takes a lot more effort than other units and the payoff isn't great.

#2 is higher than I'd rank Saizo for sure (I disagree with the sort of availability arguments that are needed to vault him over Ryoma, for instance), but I can see it? He's good. All of his stats are solid and he can double at 1-2 range, both with physical and Flame Shuriken. I'd imagine if you favor him he becomes quite a beast due to enormous enemy phase potential.

- Well, now that you're trying to justify some of the stuff I argued against, you may as well be a participant in that debate.  If you didn't want to get involved in a debate, you probably shouldn't have said anything in the first place.

- I don't see the skills or her being an early-game prepromote as abundantly good things that make her better than units who actually have better stats.  Aside from that, I hardly see any actual effort to justify her uses; why is Hero a good class for her (I honestly think it's a horrible class for her, why would you want to make a unit with such bad strength and defense stats into a primarily physical combat unit?), how are Oboro and Takumi vanilla and outclassed by upper-tiers, how is Oboro directly inferior to Hinoka (their differences besides HP are honestly marginal at best, the only real difference being the classes they have access to by default).  You can't just say these things without properly justifying yourself.  Especially the bit about Felicia being good as a Hero; I've heard maybe a few people say that Flora could make a good Hero, but never Felicia.  And the thing is, you can argue that her healbot utility is useful... but anyone can be a frickin' healbot, it's not that hard.  I even joked about how Hana was so useful as a Priestess, because outside of that she's an awful combatant thanks to crummy defense.  So in my mind, healbot utility shouldn't even be a factor unless you want to use debuff staves, but like... who ever does that?  The main thing I'd say Felicia has over every other unit is that you're basically forced to make use of her, but you're also forced to use Rinkah and Kaze, who both have their own problems as units (Rinkah's lame strength, Kaze's awful defense).

- My point about Yukimura is that he joins very, very late (he joins at Chapter 23 or later if you don't have Puppets upgraded to max, with only six chapters left).  Later than even Shura.  And all you get is a unit who provides a marginal boost to everyone and otherwise only performs okay (his base defense is lower than Scarlet's, and he starts nine levels higher).  In my opinion, a tier list should showcase how useful a unit is throughout a run, and Yukimura's basically like one of those garbage redundant characters you get in Shadow Dragon.  Simply by joining earlier and having decent stats after a little bit of growth/a reclass, Mozu's more useful, even if only marginally so.  Playstyle philosophy aside, I only see Yukimura being useful if either you're doing a 0% growths run or if your units (among an army of potentially 41 units, only a third of which you'll actually be using at a time) got exceptionally screwed over.

- "If you favor him" is exactly the problem with practically every FE tier list ever.  Gunter can be good if you favor him with every goddamn statbooster known to man, that doesn't mean he's actually a viable unit to bring along for your lategame team in Revelation as anything other than a pair-up bot.  Not to trash on Saizo, because all things considered he is a decent unit, but that argument should never apply to Fates units because everyone can be good if you coddle them, and at that point the only differences they'd technically have anymore is their personal skills and the marginally different max stats they'd have.

 

I'm sorry if I'm sounding harsh, but it gets on my nerves when people voice opinions in a debate thread without properly justifying themselves.  Here I am trying to explain why I think Oboro's balanced stats (the decent stats she has in everything but Resistance and Magic) make her one of the better, tankier BR units or how Midori has all around better combat stats than Setsuna because she'll actually have the strength to frickin' hurt something, and yet the apparently majority opinion says things like "well, Felicia's better than Oboro 'cuz she has good stats and can become a Hero".  Do you understand how something as non-explanatory as that might be annoying in a serious discussion about gameplay and unit balance?

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm not going to defend Felicia. I've never used her that way and I'm going on hearsay. By all means look up the stats and compare her to other combat units at equal levels and show her inferiority. I have used Paladin Jakob and I've found that he does very well, and on paper Felicia shouldn't be that much worse but *shrug*

51 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

- My point about Yukimura is that he joins very, very late (he joins at Chapter 23 or later if you don't have Puppets upgraded to max, with only six chapters left).  Later than even Shura.  And all you get is a unit who provides a marginal boost to everyone and otherwise only performs okay (his base defense is lower than Scarlet's, and he starts nine levels higher).  In my opinion, a tier list should showcase how useful a unit is throughout a run, and Yukimura's basically like one of those garbage redundant characters you get in Shadow Dragon.  Simply by joining earlier and having decent stats after a little bit of growth/a reclass, Mozu's more useful, even if only marginally so.  Playstyle philosophy aside, I only see Yukimura being useful if either you're doing a 0% growths run or if your units (among an army of potentially 41 units, only a third of which you'll actually be using at a time) got exceptionally screwed over.

Scarlet has exceptional def, I'm not sure what your point is there? Yukimura has 21 def, 22 res, and 38 HP, which is extremely solid overall even before considering his triangle control. He's a tough customer to put down and can hit back with shuriken which allow doubling at 1-2 range. In case you hadn't learned yet (since the rest of your post seems to suggest you don't understand this), those are good. He's perfectly solid and I'm not sure why you're hating on him. Since just deploying him gives Hit+5, he's automatically better than other filler you might get at that late stage, and again your unit slots do expand at that point.

59 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

- "If you favor him" is exactly the problem with practically every FE tier list ever.  Gunter can be good if you favor him with every goddamn statbooster known to man, that doesn't mean he's actually a viable unit to bring along for your lategame team in Revelation as anything other than a pair-up bot.  Not to trash on Saizo, because all things considered he is a decent unit, but that argument should never apply to Fates units because everyone can be good if you coddle them, and at that point the only differences they'd technically have anymore is their personal skills and the marginally different max stats they'd have.

You're not looking at how/why Saizo performs better than other units. He has shuriken and good stats across the board (except res though shuriken WTA helps with mages some). Give him some resources and you get someone who one-rounds on the enemy phase regardless of attack range. He's got enough str/spd to do it, and enough bulk to withstand some punishment to do it. He's even got the mag to deal with high-def enemies like wyverns and knights (though sting shuriken works on the latter anyway). Few other units can do this role as easily as him. Ryoma can, some builds of Corrin can. Kagero can but her HP/Def can be a problem. Kaze's str is too low. Who else? Saizo's one of the best at what he does.

1 hour ago, Ertrick36 said:

how are Oboro and Takumi vanilla and outclassed by upper-tiers

How are they not? Like I'm sorry if you're too lazy to do this yourself but others have done it already and that's why they're tiered where they are. The tier list I've linked was created in a democracy by many people, you are just one person. If you disagree (and to be clear, it's fine if you do!), it falls to YOU to provide evidence of where they're wrong. It's kinda unbelievable you're giving me a hard time for not justifying myself when you've not been doing much yourself. The onus isn't on me to prove anything, here.

Go compare Oboro with Hinoka at base stats. Since flight is hard to quantify feel free to heart seal Hinoka into Spearfighter for the comparison. Hinoka wins pretty much everything (ridiculously so in res) if memory serves. Plus she can activate dragon veins and likely has a better personal skill (since it works on every map). Plus I suspect most people would consider Sky Knight better than Spearfighter anyway.

Takumi is an archer and hence doesn't have much of an enemy phase, and as a player phase unit he's thoroughly outclassed by Reina who has +9 spd and +3 move on him at base, as well as a second weapon on the triangle and the ability to melee counter. That's a hell of a hole to climb out of, and seeing as Reina is generally only rated as high as she is for having such a great start, going "but Takumi is better than her lategame!" isn't going to be good enough, any more than saying the same thing about Franz vs Seth.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Plus I suspect most people would consider Sky Knight better than Spearfighter anyway.

I'd rather have a unit without a Bow weakness for BR, but that is just me; and for Rev, she is friending Camilla for the superior Nohrian mount. Lets Hinoka do a lot of tanking fun. I can use Subaki as a flier ferrybot for someone.

Agreeing that Hinoka > Oboro. Not that Oboro is bad, just that Hinoka has her beat. 

 

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Takumi is an archer and hence doesn't have much of an enemy phase, and as a player phase unit he's thoroughly outclassed by Reina who has +9 spd and +3 move on him at base, as well as a second weapon on the triangle and the ability to melee counter. That's a hell of a hole to climb out of, and seeing as Reina is generally only rated as high as she is for having such a great start, going "but Takumi is better than her lategame!" isn't going to be good enough, any more than saying the same thing about Franz vs Seth.

Why not use both, at least for a while? Takumi might really be nothing special outside of DV use and the potent Fujin Yumi, but he is average with good bases, and for an Archer, that is a record milestone in FE. He doesn't really need much investment outside of the norm, Reina is no investment, but Takumi will never really drag you down. BR has plentiful EXP even without grinding. 

[Shadow Mir]

Having seen some complaints on the royals, I personally would be more pissed if the game pulled a Gungnir. (For the uninitiated, in the game in question, the titular spear gets a lot of hype throughout the storyline... Except when you get into the gameplay, it fails to live up to all the storyline hype it gets for various reasons.)

Edited October 23, 2018 by Shadow Mir

[Ertrick36]

5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm not going to defend Felicia. I've never used her that way and I'm going on hearsay. By all means look up the stats and compare her to other combat units at equal levels and show her inferiority. I have used Paladin Jakob and I've found that he does very well, and on paper Felicia shouldn't be that much worse but *shrug*

Scarlet has exceptional def, I'm not sure what your point is there? Yukimura has 21 def, 22 res, and 38 HP, which is extremely solid overall even before considering his triangle control. He's a tough customer to put down and can hit back with shuriken which allow doubling at 1-2 range. In case you hadn't learned yet (since the rest of your post seems to suggest you don't understand this), those are good. He's perfectly solid and I'm not sure why you're hating on him. Since just deploying him gives Hit+5, he's automatically better than other filler you might get at that late stage, and again your unit slots do expand at that point.

You're not looking at how/why Saizo performs better than other units. He has shuriken and good stats across the board (except res though shuriken WTA helps with mages some). Give him some resources and you get someone who one-rounds on the enemy phase regardless of attack range. He's got enough str/spd to do it, and enough bulk to withstand some punishment to do it. He's even got the mag to deal with high-def enemies like wyverns and knights (though sting shuriken works on the latter anyway). Few other units can do this role as easily as him. Ryoma can, some builds of Corrin can. Kagero can but her HP/Def can be a problem. Kaze's str is too low. Who else? Saizo's one of the best at what he does.

How are they not? Like I'm sorry if you're too lazy to do this yourself but others have done it already and that's why they're tiered where they are. The tier list I've linked was created in a democracy by many people, you are just one person. If you disagree (and to be clear, it's fine if you do!), it falls to YOU to provide evidence of where they're wrong. It's kinda unbelievable you're giving me a hard time for not justifying myself when you've not been doing much yourself. The onus isn't on me to prove anything, here.

Go compare Oboro with Hinoka at base stats. Since flight is hard to quantify feel free to heart seal Hinoka into Spearfighter for the comparison. Hinoka wins pretty much everything (ridiculously so in res) if memory serves. Plus she can activate dragon veins and likely has a better personal skill (since it works on every map). Plus I suspect most people would consider Sky Knight better than Spearfighter anyway.

Takumi is an archer and hence doesn't have much of an enemy phase, and as a player phase unit he's thoroughly outclassed by Reina who has +9 spd and +3 move on him at base, as well as a second weapon on the triangle and the ability to melee counter. That's a hell of a hole to climb out of, and seeing as Reina is generally only rated as high as she is for having such a great start, going "but Takumi is better than her lategame!" isn't going to be good enough, any more than saying the same thing about Franz vs Seth.

- The only classes she's good for as anything other than a healbot are classes where she can use straight up magic.  But even then... Mir and I seem to be in agreement that sucky defense is terrible, and every magic-wielding class except Dark Knight will give you just that.  So no matter what, Felicia's gonna get squished by physical enemies, and for the most part there aren't very many mages one needs to kill in Birthright.

- Well, and anyone who has decent defense growths will also have a defense rating of at least 20 by the time they promote, most likely.  Oboro, Silas, Hinoka, Rinkah... hell, to point out another level 1 prepromote who has close to the same stat, Reina has a defense of 20.  My point isn't that he sucks, it's that he's merely par for his join time (pretty much everyone you'll be using will have stats ranging between the mid-twenties and low thirties at this point if they're not garbage units), and comes exceptionally late.  In my mind, that docks enough points that he should get docked down to near the bottom with units like Setsuna and Rinkah.

- I said before that I don't think Saizo is terrible, I don't know why you keep trying to justify him to me.  I just don't think he's as stupidly broken as Ryoma with his ridiculous Raijinto-Astra-Vantage BS.  I don't even think Corrin is, tbh.  What I meant when I said you can make any unit good was more in the general sense that most units can be made really good if you give them attention.  Ryoma and Scarlet are the only ones who don't need attention to be able to immediately destroy the competition.

- Sometimes democracies can be wrong.  Popular consensus is simply what a bunch of people believe is right, that doesn't equate to something actually being right.  A popular consensus believed Galileo was wrong when he provided his theories about the celestial bodies, but that popular consensus was proven to be wrong, and there are thousands of other instances where effectively the same has happened (and still happens to this day).

In my mind there are only three tiers in this game (or at least in this path); broken, good, and garbage.  Everyone who is good can be made into excellent units (they have decent enough stats across the board to carry them), everyone who is garbage has or will have some problem holding them back (or their availability is exceptionally poor), and everyone who is broken is there for a good chunk of the game and will always be able to clean large swaths of enemies within the blink of an eye.  Just about every unit is in the "good" category, and that was my point with the idea that investment can make just about any Fates unit good.

Also, you forget who I was comparing some of these units to in the first place.  I made no mention of Hinoka initially.  I compared Oboro and, by extension, Takumi to goddamn Rinkah and Subaki... units who I think are way too frickin' high for their utterly garbage strength stats.  Same with Felicia; again, I feel like her squishiness makes her too much of a liability to field her as anything besides a ranger, mage killer, or healbot.  Takumi even if he's stuck as an archer at base, still has both a powerful bow and rather decent defense, so it isn't like he's screwed in enemy phase combat unless he gets surrounded.  Again, only comparing him to Rinkah, Subaki, and Felicia - units who I feel are all held back by some critical flaw.

But even so, I still stand by my position that Hinoka is roughly the same as Oboro, stats and everything.  The Dragon Veins barely matter, they're just a utility, and you'll always have at least one around anyway.  And that skill?  Honestly, a +2 damage bonus isn't that great, and neither is a +3 bonus.  All of Hinoka's advantages, in my opinion, don't cause her to soar into the clouds of broken godhood with Ryoma, so I'll stand by my position that she belongs in the same tier as Oboro and Takumi.

 

And by the way, I'm not trying to get personal or anything like that.  Sometimes I just have a dickish tone because the internet as a whole has soured my feelings on debates and tier lists, so I come into such discussions with a rather negative mindset.  Despite my tone, I do find debates on here to be a refreshing change of pace from the idiotic name-calling and appeals to pathos I'd get from some other sites.

And yes, that means I take back maybe some of the things I said or implied in the last paragraph.  To give credit where credit is due, you did lay forth explanations for the arguments you think are right (I don't mean this in a condescending way; mostly just thinking about the bit where you were unsure about Felicia).  So for that, you have more credence in my book than that tier list.

[Shadow Mir]

On the subject of that tier list, I'm struggling to fathom how a loser like Orochi could be so high since she's slow and squishy - anyone with half a brain can tell you that's a losing combination. Someone on that page says she can be a "passable" magic unit, but I'm extremely hesitant to buy that since she can't even double effing ARMORS, of all things, unless they use weapons that make them easier to double. That is NOT the mark of a "passable" magic unit, by my standards.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Shadow Mir

[anikom15]

I read the first post and what I got out of it is that OP can't use Reina because her stats are too low or something and she doesn't get enough EXP even though she gets more EXP than a 20/1 character, and trying to use that to say Fates' EXP curves are broken.

That's such a leap in logic that I'm just going to file this as someone who's played the game a little too much and needs to just let off some steam. I guess it could happen to anyone. Don't worry about it OP.

Also Orochi is not only the worst magic user but also one of the worst units in the game. That's why they gave her capture. She needs to be useful for something. You'll notice Niles is a pretty garbage unit as well (at least in my experience, YMMV). But really, I've never complained about unit balance because I don't care if someone sucks, if I like their character enough I'll find a use for them. Some people in real life are just bad and video games should reflect that.

[Johnnie]

    If you read that tier list, you'd see it's not ranked solely on combat potential but on efficiency. This is why Mozu is at the bottom of every single list since she can turn into a decent combat unit in the mid-late game, but it takes a huge investment and there's nothing efficient about her.

 

I wasn't involved in the tier list, nor have I read every comment but I can speak to a few points. Rinkah is as high as she is for a number of reasons, which isn't even that high. She's only 1 spot above Oboro in that list and both are in the mid-tier which means they're basically interchangeable. Her availability is awesome, for one. A solid tank coming in at Chapter 3 is huge in a route where no one has defense to speak of. Her pair up bonuses are excellent for Chapters 7 and 9 and if paired up with a male Corrin you can unlock Kana before Chapter 10, or provide much needed defense and strength for Kaze in the early game when he needs it the most. Honestly, by the time you recruit Oboro she's largely obsolete, but by then she's done her job and done it well. If you do keep her around, she's your only source of Seal Resistance without reclassing which can help get Orochi or Hayato off the ground if those are the units you want to train. Shove is a vastly under estimated skill in a game where only one class can use it, and passing on Death Blow through marriage or friendship can't be overlooked. But as for her placement relative to Oboro's, again they're 1 space apart in the middle of the pack which means they're completely interchangeable for what they do.

 

Reina is so high because she comes in on a map where she's needed immediately and takes no investment to use. Most people have probably given up on Subaki by now which means your only other flier is Hinoka who might be level 11 by now unless you've been ignoring everyone else. If you want to early seal Hinoka then by all means do so, but she's one of the few units who benefits from waiting a little longer. Really, your 2 Master Seals are probably better used on Hinata and Oboro/Kaze especially if you're not planning on keeping the latter past Chapter 15. Reina struggles against maybe the Malig Knights on her join chapter, but more importantly she's excellent for training Hinoka and arguably Subaki on this map. In Attack Stance, she allows those two to completely obliterate every flier they come into contact with while taking little to no damage themselves. Solid mid-game utility, no investment needed and an instant delete button against the numerous wyverns Nohr likes to throw at you definitely makes her a solid unit. Scarlet does most things than she does better but 5 chapters later. Also, flight.

 

Subaki is ranked mostly because of flight. His combat is trash, but an early game flier is invaluable especially on Chapter 8. He's ranked solely for utility and an early game child with a Swordslayer. Passing on Pegasus access to his wife and friends is also a bonus.

 

Orochi is as high as she is because of Capture shenanigans and pair up. Capture is another skill that most people ignore, but is immensely useful. With proper marriage planning shenanigans, you can easily get Silas's paralogue super early which means you can capture useful bosses to help fill out your roster. Especially if you want to avoid training certain trash units you get in the early game. On Birthright, you can easily unlock Jakob's and Corrin's paralogues before Chapter 10. This is 2 additional maps you can gain experience for your useful units and 2 more maps to build supports. You can reliably unlock Saizo's, Azura's, Subaki's and Silas's (and quite possibly Azama's and Hayato's) paralogues in this time. I've done it and can repeat it, since my whole playstyle with Awakening and Fates revolves around full recruitment no-grind runs. This gives you a total of 6-8 extra maps to gain experience, useful weapons, staves, seals and units going into Chapter 10. This also gives you 4 capturable bosses, the most useful being Funke and Nichol. Funke gives you a healer with combat utility, as well as Pass shenanigans and +1 move on pair up while Nichol can do everything Scarlet can do. Neither has a personal skill, but Scarlet's is trash anyway. Neither can build supports either, but Scarlet is only able to support Corrin and he's likely married and moved on by then. You can reliably recruit both of them by Chapter 13, giving you access to 4 classes worth of Nohr skills and a flying tank 3 chapters before you can recruit Ryoma and Scarlet. Also she gives solid pair up bonuses to Saizo.

 

Saizo is so high because he joins so early, has access to the best weapon type in the game, enough bulk to be used on the front lines unlike his brother and he gains a mount on promotion since Mechanist is better than Master Ninja for him. Ryoma can gain a mount as well, but he loses the best part about himself in the process.

 

Takumi is where he is because he costs a huge investment in the mid game and 2-range bow lock until promotion. I'd honestly put him higher than he is simply because he deletes everything that flies for the whole game and is a hard counter to every ninja he meets, but his speed does fall off hard around Chapter 15.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Johnnie

[Errorik]

Combat performance is one of many useful things a unit brings to the table. Solution: play a different game.

[LoneRecon400]

I feel as though people aren't bringing up some points about the Reddit tier list that help to explain some placements on the list that otherwise would look out place. 

-To begin with, how they judge unit. 

The community holds itself to a 'efficient' standard. That means that they try clear maps at a brisk pace by limiting the amount of turns a chapter takes. So that means strategies such as turtling won't be in play, nor will they ever stop to grind for unit. To that end, units are largely judged by the capability to one round, their availability, the amount of investment they need to preform, and their utility. So having high base stats, 1-2 range, 8 movement, and being able to withstand enemy phase are the marks of a good unit.

-One thing to take also into account is how for the abundance of ways to increase stats. 

Pair Ups, Tonics, Skills, Rallies, and Forges make it so that any issues any unit may have, be it with speed, durability, or offense can easily be remedied. When you can easily stack +6 Strength and +10 Defense on a unit, the differences in stats tend to be marginal, so it's more unique properties such as high movement or 1-2 range that influence a unit's position.   

-And one last thing to note, and arguably most importantly, is to consider the enemy quality of Birthright, or lack of there of. Enemy quality is the metric all units judged by, but Birthright enemies are infamously stagnant until the late game.

Take, for example, the faceless of Mozu's Paralouge and the ones that make up Chapter 20: https://imgur.com/a/2Voukpo

As you can see, the midgame of Birthright is where enemies remain rather stagnant, as a majority of enemies aren't even promoted until chapter 21. Because of this, having low stats isn't that much of an issue because the enemy themselves are rather weak. Even during the latgame, where they may have better stats, there are more options available to make up for that difference as described above.

Here is a imgur gallery of enemy stats in Birthright for those curious: https://imgur.com/a/nCo2b16

Now with metrics out of the way, lets discuss some actual placements on the list:

-Saizo is placed higher than Ryoma mainly because of his availability. While Ryoma can easily one round most enemies with ease, it ends up being overkill for most enemies. Saizo is more than capable of one rounding almost every unit Ryoma is capable of. As a result, Saizo's is higher valued than him because those 6 early game chapters of availability matters more considering that 1-2 range units are limited for that section and most of those chapter are route maps with 2 range enemies. 

-Reina is highly rated because she takes no investment to one round enemies even during the late game on top of having high movement. Her stats and weapon ranks means that she's capable of utilizing effective weapons such as the Beast Killer and the Sword Catcher to help deal with enemies while also allowing her to capitalize movement and her personal skill. She can have access to 1-2 range by reclassing to Master Ninja, though that admittedly is at the cost of flight. 

-Felicia is highly regarded not for her innate reclass abilities or staffing utilities, but for being able to S rank Corrin and learn promoted level 15 skill before the start of the mid game. By allowing her to marry, say, a Wyvern Corrin, she's able to pick up Malig Knight, which compliments her magic for 1-2 range, helps to patch up her durability and give her 8 Mov flight, all on top of learning Trample by level 15.

-Rinkah is above Takumi and Oboro because she's able to obtain 1-2 range weapon in the form of the Bolt Axe. While that may seem a ludicrous suggestion at first, it's possible for Rinkah to with it obtain 33 attack without gaining a single point of magic as a Oni Chieftain. Her personal is also of note since it's damage is almost on par with a -faire skill and helps out her offensive all game long. She can also activate it on  the first turn just by using a HP tonic. 

-Subaki is also highly valued as he allows for other units to be carried around other units over terrain and can utilize the Bolt Naginata. While he will eventually fall off during the late game, he still has access to rally speed to help other unit double. 

-Takumi is mid tiered for being Bow Locked. This is rather a bad thing since enemy phase is where almost all the combat happens in a efficient playthrough. Being unable to retaliate on 1 range enemies is a immense downside since that's what makes up the vast majority of the enemy forces. While he may be able to retaliate on some 2 range with some positioning, it's rather situational and is far less efficient than just throwing a 1-2 range unit at the enemy. 

-Yukimura is pretty mediocre and has low availability, but that's why he's the second worst unit on the list.   

-Mozu is at the very bottom of the list because she has all the disadvantages of being Bow Locked on top of having some of the lowest bases in the game. While with investment she'll eventually be able out stat other units, it again doesn't really matter because of how low one rounding benchmarks are in Birthright. Most importantly, however, she takes away a scarce resource that significantly improves units that are better than her just to be useable. You don't get another heart seal until the level 2 staff shop, and by then it's it's difficult to one round enemies with bronze weapons.

Edited October 25, 2018 by LoneRecon400
minor elaboration and formatting

[anikom15]

The irony of trying to figure out how to finish a game you like as soon as possible

[LoneRecon400]

On topic though, I have very little idea where TC is coming from.

Pre promotes don't need to gain that many levels since their stats are more than adequate for most of the game. Even if they weren't, it wouldn't matter that much with how many different ways they are to boost stats. 

I especially don't see how healers are the first units to promote, let alone reach level 20 in a reasonable time frame. It'd take a unit like Sakura ~170 uses of Bloom Festal to get her to level 20, which I don't see happening before someone else promotes.

It just feels like to me that TC is aiming to just roll over the game with overpowered units and is unsatisfied that they can't get 20/20 before the end game. That's so alien from the way I play that I have a hard time comprehending this without him explaining his perspective.

Quote

The irony of trying to figure out how to finish a game you like as soon as possible

By that logic Speedrunners must really actively dislike a game if they're willing to dedicate tens, of not hundred of hours, just to beat it a little faster.

Edited October 25, 2018 by LoneRecon400
clarification

[anikom15]

1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

By that logic Speedrunners must really actively dislike a game if they're willing to dedicate tens, of not hundred of hours, just to beat it a little faster.

I'm not presenting any 'logic' that they dislike the game. I'm just pointing out the irony of the situation.

[Shoblongoo]

On 10/21/2018 at 12:21 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

I like the EXP curve on the higher difficulties of Fates, Awakening had issues of broken lowmanning, partly to be blamed on the relatively high EXP gain for a highly leveled unit able to clear swathes of a map on their own

Agreed. (the other issue was nosferatu tanking in awakening being absolutely busted, which Fates also fixed)

I like the mechanic of over-leveled units losing exp gains as a way to discourage low-manning + preserve the intended difficulty level of the more challenging campaigns; definitely something I would want to see return in future games. 

The casuals of course always had the option of grinding for extra EXP in skirmishes in birthright (not that you ever actually need to do this to deal with anything the birthright route throws at you) and in Conquest--well--the whole point of conquest is its not supposed to be cheesable with super OP units. But you still have DLC and MyCastle skill-farming if you want to do it.

As long as casual players have the OPTION of still being able to over-level and break their units, I don't see the harm in having mechanics that prevent you from doing so in the course of ordinary gameplay.

And I'll be sorely disappointed if those mechanics are scrapped. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[Shadow Mir]

@LoneRecon400 The units Ertrick and I seem to be contesting are the ones that have critical flaws that really drag them down (Rinkah's offense, Orochi's speed, Subaki's strength and speed). Sure, they're not unfixable, but I'm better off using the stuff that could fix them to improve a better unit. Take Rinkah, for example. She needs an Onmyoji pair up, as well as Rally Magic and her personal to do what you state. Given the Onmyoji candidates are either not exactly quality units or have better options, that's asking a lot.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Shadow Mir

[LoneRecon400]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

@LoneRecon400 The units Ertrick and I seem to be contesting are the ones that have critical flaws that really drag them down (Rinkah's offense, Orochi's speed, Subaki's strength and speed). Sure, they're not unfixable, but I'm better off using the stuff that could fix them to improve a better unit. Like Rinkah. She needs an Onmyoji pair up, as well as Rally Magic and her personal to do what you state. Given the Onmyoji candidates are either not exactly quality units or have better options, that's asking a lot.

Thing is it doesn't take much to fix the issues those units have. Things such as Pair Ups and tonics aren't particularly rare or can't be replaced. If you really disliked raising both Diviners and Sakura, you could just use reclass a unit like Kaden to Onmyoji and have the same benefit as if you invested in Hayoto in terms of giving Rinkah a pair up bot. 

You also overestimate the problems those units have. A Base level Rinkah in chapter 8 is capable of one rounding both the Fighter and the Cavaliers in that map and is only one strength proc off of one rounding the soldiers. And Orochi is capable of doubling both the Oni Savages and the Knights without a single Speed proc and can rely on the Horse Spirit to patch it up even further to regularly double most enemies.

Subaki is about the only unit who is incapable of one rounding at base due to needing both strength and speed, but he requires no level ups at all to ferry units around and can even be viable as a combat unit with some investment to obtain Rally Speed. He won't be good for late game, but not all units have to be viable for combat late game if they can provide utility all game long. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by LoneRecon400

[Ertrick36]

I mean, there are good reasons why I don't do LTC runs (mostly because they seem so unfun to me; I get enough of that crap out of Valkyria Chronicles), but if you're gonna be making an "efficiency tier list", then you shouldn't include Mozu in the first place because you have to go through a Paralogue to get her.  Otherwise, you may as well include every single child unit.  I'm never not going to have problems with that list.  But we've dwelt on that stupid thing long enough.

I don't believe I gave a proper opinion about Fates' EXP curve.  I prefer it to most other EXP curves.  No unit should be able to soar in levels.  And if you think Reina's useless, then you're probably just one of those fools that thinks that all prepromotes with par or subpar growths suck.  Or you're in the boat of people that believe all Corrinsexuals suck.  Either way, you actually have no idea what you're talking about.

[Errorik]

20 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Thing is it doesn't take much to fix the issues those units have. Things such as Pair Ups and tonics aren't particularly rare or can't be replaced. If you really disliked raising both Diviners and Sakura, you could just use reclass a unit like Kaden to Onmyoji and have the same benefit as if you invested in Hayoto in terms of giving Rinkah a pair up bot. 

You also overestimate the problems those units have. A Base level Rinkah in chapter 8 is capable of one rounding both the Fighter and the Cavaliers in that map and is only one strength proc off of one rounding the soldiers. And Orochi is capable of doubling both the Oni Savages and the Knights without a single Speed proc and can rely on the Horse Spirit to patch it up even further to regularly double most enemies.

Subaki is about the only unit who is incapable of one rounding at base due to needing both strength and speed, but he requires no level ups at all to ferry units around and can even be viable as a combat unit with some investment to obtain Rally Speed. He won't be good for late game, but not all units have to be viable for combat late game if they can provide utility all game long. 

I ran a Subaki with Orochi in pocket and a bolt lance. It turned out really well since he's so bulky and Orochi gives MAG/SPD.

[Johnnie]

It's almost as if there's different ways to use units.

[mangasdeouf]

On 26/10/2018 at 4:53 AM, Ertrick36 said:

I mean, there are good reasons why I don't do LTC runs (mostly because they seem so unfun to me; I get enough of that crap out of Valkyria Chronicles), but if you're gonna be making an "efficiency tier list", then you shouldn't include Mozu in the first place because you have to go through a Paralogue to get her.  Otherwise, you may as well include every single child unit.  I'm never not going to have problems with that list.  But we've dwelt on that stupid thing long enough.

I don't believe I gave a proper opinion about Fates' EXP curve.  I prefer it to most other EXP curves.  No unit should be able to soar in levels.  And if you think Reina's useless, then you're probably just one of those fools that thinks that all prepromotes with par or subpar growths suck.  Or you're in the boat of people that believe all Corrinsexuals suck.  Either way, you actually have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't do LTC either since it's the opposite of a game (more like a homework). Still, Mozu with her base class outclasses most t1 units after 5 level ups or so (at level 10 she simply eclipses most of the cast with the shittiest class and base stats of all of them, so if you reclass her ASAP she migh as well be your best unit in a few level ups, unlike FE8 trainees who needed 15+ level ups to become better than their competition). She can reclass into ninja in order to beat any other ninja in nearly every stat except HP and def/res (Saizo beats her in def and mag while Kaze beats her in res, maybe 1 or 2 points in speed though it's overkill and he has no luck unlike her so she dodges way better and is less likely to get critted, maybe Oboro beats her in 1 or 2 points of strength but it doesn't matter and Mozu has more spd/skl). You want a good ninja? pair Mozu with one of them to get the class and she'll be godlike. She can be put into DF for the early game then go master ninja. Anyway her base class gives her access to a good class (master of arms) and she can just outperform 90% of the cast (not Ryoma because of his pref weapon but that's the only thing that gives him an edge over her) in any physical class (cav!Mozu should be godlike too if you want a faster and more accurate but squishier version of Silas with more damage and automatic doubling on everything Nohr makes you face). She'd be Peri on steroids with reverse def/res.

Does she cost you a paralogue to recruit? Yes. Does she trivialize the game? Yes if you give her what she wants, which is far less than anyone else wants (except Odin, just give him a seal and enjoy). She doesn't need stat boosters, not even tonics. She costs you 0 gold to recruit, 0 to 2000 gold to seal (DLC/heart seal) and she outperforms nearly everyone with only 4-5 level ups (the other ones need more than that to become independent except biased high level royals) while also giving you one of the best late game units, reaching offensive stat caps so quickly you can as well give her a tanky class to close the gap with her HP/def/res caps (guess what, her merchant base class does def/res best with high str and her base master of arms gives her the most HP, for about 60-65% growth with aptitude).

On the topic of Reina, she gains exp slower than Seth, has less availability, unbalanced as hell base stats and growth rates, and get outperformed by base Scarlet even if she's gotten 5 level ups before blondie joins the party (except maybe in spd and skl, but Scarlet has way enough of them to be confident anyway). Just give Subaki a strength/spd pair up or high strength if he only fights during PP. He'll probably end up outclassing Reina by the chapte she joins. And she has only PP safety as a glass cannon flyer while Subaki can be used as an offtank during EP. He also has access and good synergy with the bolt naginata like many players say, while Reina has very poor magic (Mozu level of growth without aptitude). Her base class which gives her her best utility and offence at the same time has poor bases as well as growths, and she needs a heart seal to get a better EP class (basara/spearfighter/master ninja/mechanist).

So her opportunity cost is high enough while she doesn't require a promotion but doesn't benefit a lot from being a prepromote other than weapon rank (D-bows still suck for a t2 unit compared with previous FEs prepromotes' weapon ranks and C-lances also suck ass when you have a prepromote that can't take 2 hits in mid-late game) and she doesn't even benefit from difficulty buffs (she would be much better with a hard/lunatic stat/weapon rank buff like in GBA FEs and Awakening) so in hard she get OHKO'd or not far from it by the Kinshis in her join chapter (what's the point of OHKOing them if they can OHKO you in return or set up a free kill for a generic under levelled pegasus knight with a C lance? She has correct PP but her EP sucks balls which is regrettabe for a flying prepromote). She even needs one weapon rank in bows to wield a steel bow or shining bow if you can get your hands on one, which is a pity for a prepromote (imagine Freddy with C-lances and no discipline, he would suck much more right? that's the whole point, he would be way less efficient in early game lunatic, and that's exactly what Reina suffers from, shaky base stats alongside shitty weapon ranks and low exp gains to discourage you from abusing her so she get even less weapon exp and needs way more chapters to get to good weapon ranks especially for bows). Without forges she would probably fall off soon (and forges are long and costly to make especially in LTC or no grind runs), and even with forges, does it fix her shit accuracy? Before Air superiority she's even quite medium at killing flyers, with Fates' hit rate system (avoid attacking bow wielding kinshis or she could get into a bad situation). Also, actually being unpromoted is better than being a prepromote in 3DS games since promotion gains are fat in certain classes (well, not kinshi for sure...).

[Shadow Mir]

On 10/25/2018 at 8:29 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

Thing is it doesn't take much to fix the issues those units have. Things such as Pair Ups and tonics aren't particularly rare or can't be replaced. If you really disliked raising both Diviners and Sakura, you could just use reclass a unit like Kaden to Onmyoji and have the same benefit as if you invested in Hayoto in terms of giving Rinkah a pair up bot. 

Except that costs a Heart Seal - a cost I'm not exactly willing to make light of, given that you have all of 4 for most of the game. And it's not that I dislike raising Sakura - it's that Priestess is just better than Onmyoji (Renewal is obviously better than what's arguably the least useful rally in the game; with a lack of quality mages in this game, I'm almost tempted to do without mages). On the other hand, Orochi, Hayato and Rhajat all have compelling reasons to not bother with them (Orochi's slow as molasses in addition to a bad case of crippling overspecialization [AKA, she has garbage stats everywhere but magic and skill], Hayato comes underleveled and can have issues hitting, Rhajat's even worse at hitting than her father).

On 10/25/2018 at 8:29 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

You also overestimate the problems those units have. A Base level Rinkah in chapter 8 is capable of one rounding both the Fighter and the Cavaliers in that map and is only one strength proc off of one rounding the soldiers. And Orochi is capable of doubling both the Oni Savages and the Knights without a single Speed proc and can rely on the Horse Spirit to patch it up even further to regularly double most enemies.

Maybe I am, maybe I am not. Also, Oni Savages are exceedingly rare in Birthright; discounting paralogues, about the only time you see them is what, chapter 8? Which leaves knights, and those might be best left to someone else. Giving Orochi the Horse Spirit falls squarely into trying to make a scrub unit passable imo. And again, while her speed might not be unfixable, speed pair ups are finite, and the unit I'm sacrificing to shore up her speed is most likely someone better than she is. That's a red flag right there. Needing help just to double the slowest of the slow isn't something to be proud of. As for Rinkah, I presume you actually meant chapter 7 since chapter 8 is the Wind Tribe. Anyway, she's good early, but falls off later on since her HP compromises her ability to tank, and her luck doesn't help on that end.

On 10/25/2018 at 8:29 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

Subaki is about the only unit who is incapable of one rounding at base due to needing both strength and speed, but he requires no level ups at all to ferry units around and can even be viable as a combat unit with some investment to obtain Rally Speed. He won't be good for late game, but not all units have to be viable for combat late game if they can provide utility all game long. 

Which is not helped by strength and speed being mutually exclusive in terms of which classes boost those on pair up, to an extent. Again, odds are I'm sacrificing a better unit to improve him. Also, Rally Speed ain't enough when Hinoka and Caeldori can actually fight worth a damn.

3 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

I don't do LTC either since it's the opposite of a game (more like a homework). Still, Mozu with her base class outclasses most t1 units after 5 level ups or so (at level 10 she simply eclipses most of the cast with the shittiest class and base stats of all of them, so if you reclass her ASAP she migh as well be your best unit in a few level ups, unlike FE8 trainees who needed 15+ level ups to become better than their competition). She can reclass into ninja in order to beat any other ninja in nearly every stat except HP and def/res (Saizo beats her in def and mag while Kaze beats her in res, maybe 1 or 2 points in speed though it's overkill and he has no luck unlike her so she dodges way better and is less likely to get critted, maybe Oboro beats her in 1 or 2 points of strength but it doesn't matter and Mozu has more spd/skl). You want a good ninja? pair Mozu with one of them to get the class and she'll be godlike. She can be put into DF for the early game then go master ninja. Anyway her base class gives her access to a good class (master of arms) and she can just outperform 90% of the cast (not Ryoma because of his pref weapon but that's the only thing that gives him an edge over her) in any physical class (cav!Mozu should be godlike too if you want a faster and more accurate but squishier version of Silas with more damage and automatic doubling on everything Nohr makes you face). She'd be Peri on steroids with reverse def/res.

Does she cost you a paralogue to recruit? Yes. Does she trivialize the game? Yes if you give her what she wants, which is far less than anyone else wants (except Odin, just give him a seal and enjoy). She doesn't need stat boosters, not even tonics. She costs you 0 gold to recruit, 0 to 2000 gold to seal (DLC/heart seal) and she outperforms nearly everyone with only 4-5 level ups (the other ones need more than that to become independent except biased high level royals) while also giving you one of the best late game units, reaching offensive stat caps so quickly you can as well give her a tanky class to close the gap with her HP/def/res caps (guess what, her merchant base class does def/res best with high str and her base master of arms gives her the most HP, for about 60-65% growth with aptitude).

I think you're exaggerating, to be frank. First off, she does NOT have access to NInja without marrying either one of Kaze or Saizo. Second, Master of Arms has to deal with double E ranks. Third, Mozu needs me to focus on her at the expense of superior units to get anywhere.

Once again, for that to happen, Mozu needs experience, which she's taking from better units.

3 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

On the topic of Reina, she gains exp slower than Seth, has less availability, unbalanced as hell base stats and growth rates, and get outperformed by base Scarlet even if she's gotten 5 level ups before blondie joins the party (except maybe in spd and skl, but Scarlet has way enough of them to be confident anyway). Just give Subaki a strength/spd pair up or high strength if he only fights during PP. He'll probably end up outclassing Reina by the chapte she joins. And she has only PP safety as a glass cannon flyer while Subaki can be used as an offtank during EP. He also has access and good synergy with the bolt naginata like many players say, while Reina has very poor magic (Mozu level of growth without aptitude). Her base class which gives her her best utility and offence at the same time has poor bases as well as growths, and she needs a heart seal to get a better EP class (basara/spearfighter/master ninja/mechanist).

So her opportunity cost is high enough while she doesn't require a promotion but doesn't benefit a lot from being a prepromote other than weapon rank (D-bows still suck for a t2 unit compared with previous FEs prepromotes' weapon ranks and C-lances also suck ass when you have a prepromote that can't take 2 hits in mid-late game) and she doesn't even benefit from difficulty buffs (she would be much better with a hard/lunatic stat/weapon rank buff like in GBA FEs and Awakening) so in hard she get OHKO'd or not far from it by the Kinshis in her join chapter (what's the point of OHKOing them if they can OHKO you in return or set up a free kill for a generic under levelled pegasus knight with a C lance? She has correct PP but her EP sucks balls which is regrettabe for a flying prepromote). She even needs one weapon rank in bows to wield a steel bow or shining bow if you can get your hands on one, which is a pity for a prepromote (imagine Freddy with C-lances and no discipline, he would suck much more right? that's the whole point, he would be way less efficient in early game lunatic, and that's exactly what Reina suffers from, shaky base stats alongside shitty weapon ranks and low exp gains to discourage you from abusing her so she get even less weapon exp and needs way more chapters to get to good weapon ranks especially for bows). Without forges she would probably fall off soon (and forges are long and costly to make especially in LTC or no grind runs), and even with forges, does it fix her shit accuracy? Before Air superiority she's even quite medium at killing flyers, with Fates' hit rate system (avoid attacking bow wielding kinshis or she could get into a bad situation). Also, actually being unpromoted is better than being a prepromote in 3DS games since promotion gains are fat in certain classes (well, not kinshi for sure...).

To say that Subaki can end up outclassing Reina in combat by the time the latter joins is so laughably wrong it ain't even funny. He's down 9 strength and 10 speed from her, bases wise. That's not a deficit he's going to be erasing in a hurry with only 40 and 35 growths in those stats, respectively. And if I'm giving him a Strength/Speed pair up, that means I'm most likely sacrificing a better unit just for him to not suck. Also, I don't really see Kinshi Knight as that bad off combat wise - I'd say it's better than Basara (who cares about being able to use both lances and tomes when most units can only use ONE of the two well???).

I don't really see difficulty based buffs as necessary. If anything, they might just skew the balance further *looks at FE6*. As for your whining about weapon ranks, this ain't FE6 where weapon ranks rose at a pace that "snail's pace" would be too kind in describing. Until you get the level 2 shop, you can only get one Steel Yumi, too. Also, if 17 base strength and 20 base speed are "shaky" to you, I shudder to think of what you consider bad bases.

[mangasdeouf]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I think you're exaggerating, to be frank. First off, she does NOT have access to NInja without marrying either one of Kaze or Saizo. Second, Master of Arms has to deal with double E ranks. Third, Mozu needs me to focus on her at the expense of superior units to get anywhere.

Once again, for that to happen, Mozu needs experience, which she's taking from better units.

To say that Subaki can end up outclassing Reina in combat by the time the latter joins is so laughably wrong it ain't even funny. He's down 9 strength and 10 speed from her, bases wise. That's not a deficit he's going to be erasing in a hurry with only 40 and 35 growths in those stats, respectively. And if I'm giving him a Strength/Speed pair up, that means I'm most likely sacrificing a better unit just for him to not suck. Also, I don't really see Kinshi Knight as that bad off combat wise - I'd say it's better than Basara (who cares about being able to use both lances and tomes when most units can only use ONE of the two well???).

I don't really see difficulty based buffs as necessary. If anything, they might just skew the balance further *looks at FE6*. As for your whining about weapon ranks, this ain't FE6 where weapon ranks rose at a pace that "snail's pace" would be too kind in describing. Until you get the level 2 shop, you can only get one Steel Yumi, too. Also, if 17 base strength and 20 base speed are "shaky" to you, I shudder to think of what you consider bad bases.

Mozu costs a better unit's exp? then tell me what are your standards in terms of unit quality. She comes before chapter 7 or 8 in all 3 routes, has aptitude, great offensive personnal growths except in magic (still 15% just with aptitude, better than 5-10, up to 30% in magic classes, not so weak but not optimal), correct defensive growths, any other class she can get will give her an instant bump on her base stats, she has natural good promoted classes without a reclass, which give her weapon diversity, she's one of the 2 or 3 best candidates for a dread scroll, her lack of pref weapon makes her more worthy of reclassing into anything you want her to be that she has access to, not loosing a precious braindead OP weapon like Ryoma would if he went for another class not wielding swords (stat-wise he'd probably be a great oni or lancemaster or even the best ninja in his game if he ddn't loose the Swordsmaster crit bonus), so she's the most flexible growth unit and her growths are way higher than many of your units, rendering these units subpar compared with her. If she get 15-25 levels of dread fighter then her husband/buddy's class, she's gonna be an amazing unit, much better than some units that are praised everywhere (I've already had a level 18 villager Mozu with more stats than promoted units, with 11-ish def, 25-ish HP, 20-ish str, 24-26 skl and spd and 8 res or so with the highest luck stat for non royals in BR, if not the highest including royals, so even in her base class her stats reck all 3 ninjas' stats, the Oh-so-praised ninjas that can solo the game, and she could become one if I want to so she could solo the game much easier than they ever will).

Better units than Mozu are falling mid-late game (Jakob) or bias BS royals or Scarlet. Hinoka having pegasus base class and stats and growths and promotions doesn't help her being a really good combat unit (her base strength has to carry her for a long time before her growth starts to proc more than once every 3 levels) so she needs a reclass to be a really good fighting unit because as always (even if it's a bit less extreme in Fates than in previous games) pegasi are ferry units more than combat units, so she costs a reclass as well. Sakura starts unable to fight at all, and has good growths but like Lissa it's hit or miss (a little more hit than miss compared with Lissa though, but still complete RNG with average stats in most departments). It let you Takumi who has the average stats problem too but even more than Sakura since all he excels in is skill, which isn't so worth when he could have more damage or doubling ability throughout mid-late game instead, although his bow carries the shit out of him for sure. Ryoma is the most nonsensical unit in Fates alongside Xander, as if TSS gave you a level 15 Myrrh with infinite dragon stone uses and 1-2 range, which she doesn't need to be a goddess (she only needs infinite dragon stone uses or access to wretched air or demonlumen/ravager if only they were sold in creature campaign in order to max pleasure of post-game since CC already is all about min-maxing and post-game bullshit).

Subaki is 6 HP, 1 point of def and 2 points of res far from Reina's tanking stats and he comes with 15 levels before promotion to grow better, with a good def growth, and he also has 1 less point of skill at base, which means he can have around 10 points more in the skill department than she ever will. It means Subaki will take way more hits than her at the same level and one more by the time she joins if you train him. Meaning he has way more EP potential than her as a non-promoted unit. 15 speed on PP is enough to double most BR normal ennemies, and he can use a tonic for +2 spd (17 spd on PP) and a str tonic for +2 to +4 damage per round, he also has more time to improve his weapon ranks (4 full chapters before she even exists), and his str+spd problem is easier to fix than her skl+def problem, since skill pair ups aren't common as well as skl+def pair ups don't exist in BR except if you reclass Silas into hero, so you loose one of the best support pair ups to a unit without supports outside from Corrin, and you also loose his initial good pair up bonuses for hero's bonuses (and no +1 move). Give Subaki a lancer/archer pair up and he'll get +2 str and spd alongside 2 skill (which isn't needed but it comes along). Ths more skill, the more proc abilities and crits happen. Unlike Takumi, Subaki flies and is tanky (not only due to his base stats) and he has 6 more level ups to make work of against Takumi for higher def+res and equal HP (lol he has 6 more base res as a poor res unit so yeah, definitely tankier with lances to counter magic and swords).

Reina would really like +1 or 2 skill points in hard and lunatic, as well as def and res. Her base defnsive stats are Seth-level in a game where ennemies hit 40% to 50% harder from the beginning (and there's no pure water for free +7 res). She even comes with a steel naginata which holds her to 17 speed in ennemy phase instead of 20, 22 on PP, still hurting her avoid, alongside shit accuracy weapons (70 and 75% hit for iron yumi and steel naginata respectively, which means 90-ish hit, on ennemies that have 10-14-ish speed so 15-21 avoid not counting luck, so she has 70-ish hit rate on ennemies that threaten her life, I don't know the Fates' WTA bonuses, they seem different from Awakening's so she might have a little more on lance pegasi but that's all). Reina needs the guard Naginata to stay relevant in combat, whereas Subaki doesn't need it unless he want ennemies to hit for 1-5 damage on him around level 15 (which makes him able to take like 5-6 hits at worse from non bow users, 22+ at best or even infinite against ennemies with <20 attack). I a unit can take alone a swarm of ennemies, even if they take 4 turns to kill them all, they're better than a unit who can take ennemies one at a time. Because your other units can go somewhere else while the diversion stays. Even her strength growth is shaky (50% is a coin flip and each level up takes massive exp), on average she'll have 24.5 strength at level 20 if she ever reaches it (which isn't likely to happen seeing how her exp curve goes downhill fast with an already slow exp rate at base).

At 20/5 Subaki has 32.55 hp, 15.6 str, 3.8 mag, 24.4 skl, 16.65 spd, 13.67 luck, 15.67 def, 14.75 res, not even counting promotion bonuses (these are his stats as a level 24 pegasus, equaling level 5 promoted level in terms of number of levels gained). So he has a good enough speed to double slow ennemies on EP and almost any ennemy in PP. His strength is the same as base Reina (not impressive but without promotion bonus and with only 4 more levels than her into promoted class it's correct since she would only have 17 at this point, making the difference negligible), his skill is 10.4 points higher (15.8 more hit rate with any weapon, 5 more crit rate if it's still 0.5x skl), his hp is 5 points higher, his def 4 points higher, his res 2 points higher, his luck 1 point lower, and her growths being unimpressive don't make a great difference from her base stats with only 4 level ups to compare promoted level 5 stats (falcon knight subaki: +2 hp, +2 str, +4 mag, +1 skl, +4 spd lol shitting on Reina, +3 lck, +3 def and +3 res lol he's stomping reina in every non-speed area while tailing her in speed as a falcon knight, kinshi knight: +1 hp, +1 str, +1 mag, +4 skl lulz, +2 spd, +3 lck, +2 def, +1 res, still tankier than her and fast enough to double most ennemies in the shittiest flying class, maybe losing 1 strength with 5% lower growth rate as a kinshi as well as 0.25 res which is irrelevant). So when you say things like "Reina is so good" I'm just telling you that Subaki is as good as her, and still considered shit so why would you consider her better? Sure she has better eary game carry but she has less mid-endgame utility outside from the occasional flyer kill (if it isn't a wyvern since these have high def and she might not OS them and miss one of the two hits with her fighter-level hit rate). His bulk makes him better than her because he doesn't need to be aware of every single ennemy like she's forced to. he has her naginata guard bulk withoutth naginata guard as a falcon knight. He can use B lances by promotion and he can go falco for staff utility (=more exp gain and no need for combat to gain levels, which is OP in this game like  stated), get rally speed + lance faire without reclassing so his offence sticks to Reina's to the end and if he manages lancefaire level he can use 15 or 16 mt bol naginata (10 or 11 +5) for instant reck like Rinkah can use 10 mt throwing clubs (6+4) or venge club for 25 mt (yet saying Rinkah's offence sucks? hell she can OS any ennemy that comes to attack ker at 1 range on EP! sure it's no early game weapon but still worth a shot and cotradicting all the shit about Rinkah hitting for 0 damage especially in late game, she would have 33 mt with her base str with the venge club if she's not at full hp, 35 with a str tonic! even with only 10 more str she hits for 45 damage lol with actual crit rate, and 35 on PP with +20 crit rate).

Sorry not lance faire i forgot it was moved out from falcon knight, but warding blow makes him invulnerable to magic on PP so he can basicaly ORKO mages without taking damage in return on PP, which Reina can't without a seal. Still staff utility makes him easier to exp as well as more useful and powders + tonics make him a beast with bolt naginata (especially if you give him a magic support so he'll hit nearly as hard as if he had lancefaire).

Edited October 27, 2018 by mangasdeouf

[LoneRecon400]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Except that costs a Heart Seal - a cost I'm not exactly willing to make light of, given that you have all of 4 for most of the game. And it's not that I dislike raising Sakura - it's that Priestess is just better than Onmyoji (Renewal is obviously better than what's arguably the least useful rally in the game; with a lack of quality mages in this game, I'm almost tempted to do without mages). 

Heart seals become infinite by chapter 20, and you saw how weak the enemies were in that chapter. Prior to Chapter 22 RInkah has no issues one rounding even without an Onmyoji Pair up, and by that point you have an excess amount of funds to spend. 

 Also, Priestess Sakura?  Renewal might be an decent skill, but it most definitely not worth being Bowlocked for.

Quote

Oni Savages are exceedingly rare in Birthright; discounting paralogues, about the only time you see them is what, chapter 8? Which leaves knights, and those might be best left tosomeone else. Giving Orochi the Horse Spirit falls squarely into trying to make a scrub unit passable imo. And again, while her speed might not be unfixable, speed pair ups are finite, and the unit I'm sacrificing to shore up her speed is most likely someone better than she is. 

The Oni Savages were used as point of reference, as they have 8 speed. For some prescriptive, that's the exact same speed as the Wyvern Knights in Chapter 13 have. Enemy units in Birthright don't scale enough for her to not be doubling with investment. 

I'm also unsure why you're valuing Speed Pair ups so much. Almost 2/3rd's of the entire cast of Birthright give speed, so there's more than enough to go around.

Quote

Rinkah is good early on, but falls off later on since her HP compromises her ability to tank, and her luck doesn't help on that end.

Hp is far less relevant than defense since having the difference of 2 defense means taking less than 8 damage if you encounter 4 enemies on enemy phase. Hp Tonics also increase it 5, making it an non issue.

But you know what? Lets actually look at the number to see if it's relevant as you claim. Average 20/8 RInkah has 29 HP and 27 defense. With the relevant tonics and a rally, that brings it up to 34 HP and 33 Def.

Hardest hitting enemy in the last route map consist of Wyvern Lords in Chapter 23 with 41 attack, meaning that Rinkah gets five Round Ko'd. And that's failing to include the dual gauge, defensive pairups, and weapons that give defense such as the Horse Spirit.

And what makes this even better is that she can also one round them, considering that they only have 43 HP and 9 Resistance, it only takes 31 attack to one round them, which she can easily obtain.

Quote

Subaki is not helped by strength and speed being mutually exclusive in terms of which classes boost those on pair up, to an extent. Again, odds are I'm sacrificing a better unit to improve him. Also, Rally Speed ain't enough when Hinoka and Caeldori can actually fight worth a damn.

What exactly do you mean by sacrificing a better unit? You could easily put on a unit you don't find good, such as Orochi, and he'll do well enough with a Bolt Naginata.

And while Hinoka and Caeldori may be better than him combat wise, but by having him deployed you don't need to focus their turns on rallying.

Edited October 27, 2018 by LoneRecon400

[LoneRecon400]

1 hour ago, mangasdeouf said:

-Snip-

The issue with Mozu is that you simply don't need those extra stats. She's not competing against the other units in your army, she's competing against the enemy who don't require much to be one rounded.  Thus her performance isn't that great because there's a noticeable period where she is substantially worse than every other unit available and she doesn't accomplish anything notable that another unit isn't capable of doing  with the same investment.  

It's the same logic as to why Reina is better than Subaki. Sure, at the same level Subaki might be better than her, but she's still capable enough to consistently defeat most enemies, and doesn't require any investment to do so. 

Also, you might want to consider some brevity in your post, or at least format it such a way that it that the length doesn't dilute your point. Having it posted like this may lead to some people merely skimming your post rather than read it in depth.

Edited October 27, 2018 by LoneRecon400

[starburst]

7 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Does she cost you a paralogue to recruit? Yes. Does she trivialize the game? Yes if you give her what she wants, which is far less than anyone else wants (except Odin, just give him a seal and enjoy). She doesn't need stat boosters, not even tonics. She costs you 0 gold to recruit, 0 to 2000 gold to seal (DLC/heart seal) and she outperforms nearly everyone with only 4-5 level ups (the other ones need more than that to become independent except biased high level royals) while also giving you one of the best late game units, reaching offensive stat caps so quickly you can as well give her a tanky class to close the gap with her HP/def/res caps (guess what, her merchant base class does def/res best with high str and her base master of arms gives her the most HP, for about 60-65% growth with aptitude).

Man, it has always amazed me how many people discredit Mozu in Conquest, where a powerful and deft Sniper has a niche. But I did not know that she was just as good in Birthright (I got bored after some chapters and never tried it again.)

Archer Mozu costs a Heart Seal and a Bronce Bow, and Aptitude ensures that she will always be powerful no matter what. Her main challenger for the investment, Jakob, is both completely superfluous early-game and irrelevant from mid-game onwards. I always play as female Corrin and the prick always ends the game at around Level 5. Many times I just let Jakob die in Ch 6, some others I save him because that Heal is valuable to level-up Elise.

Mozu and Velouria have to be the units with the most reliable growths in Conquest. Theirs are so good that RNG cannot screw them, ever. (Granted, I have never tried Velouria as Elise's or Nyx's daughter, but why would I?) As long as their classes fit your party, they will always deliver.

Edited October 27, 2018 by starburst