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43 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Are you sure you want your team of mostly melee damage dealers boxed in like that? It makes it pretty safe to slowly work one's way to the fort tile above the tactics room, at which point your entire team get solo'd.

(A more obvious start would be to read the AI movement and just put a low res blue that can counter at 2 range on the forest tile, which will kill Azura turn 1. But I don't like that since it gums up the map, making it harder to reach the pots---the 'solo everyone by standing on a fort' strategy leaves the entire left side free.)

Edit: And I think Clarine would only get rallied if she herself was in the enemy team's threat range. Not too sure on this, though.

Oh it's good, don't worry. The sequence I wrote out above is exactly how it plays out as long as Robin is debuffed. The beauty of this setup is that, if Clarine can use Restore on Robin, she will, and Takumi will always follow up with Rally, and Azura with Sing on Takumi. The whole point is that it triggers on Turn 1, even if the player is out of normal attack range. Even if you put a strong DC unit like Fjorm or Robin on the forest tile, there are very few places that you can safely put a flier like Eir, and so far nobody has been able to anticipate that. Takumi makes his move from the spot directly below the pot with +1 to movement and +6 to all stats, notably his 60 Atk which will easily take out Eir or most other fragile fliers.

What usually happens is that the player begins to clear some of the structures in preparation for moving in on their own terms, and then get jumped. One player actually sent their Eir in and killed Marth from the defense tile, but that gave Takumi the chance to kill that Eir and then their Azura who was "safely" just below the Fortress (D). Part of the challenge to this map is that even with an AI guide, you can't 100% tell which unit Clarine is going to Restore, since that's based on slot order (lowest), and you only see the first unit.

I should also add that I'm not fond of using mages during Light season since most player units are getting a massive Res boost. To make things worse, since mages like Ophelia, Lilina, Reinhardt, etc are common defense units, most players are putting Distant Def, Dull Ranged, etc on their tanks. With the huge buffs Robin gets, nothing I use short of Falchion will stop her anyway, which is why most of my Def results are 1 or 2 kills (which is plenty).

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17 minutes ago, Johann said:

Oh it's good, don't worry. The sequence I wrote out above is exactly how it plays out as long as Robin is debuffed. The beauty of this setup is that, if Clarine can use Restore on Robin, she will, and Takumi will always follow up with Rally, and Azura with Sing on Takumi.

Can you double check this part for me with a 1 unit attack team? Like, turn one just stuff that guy between your escape ladder & catapult.

(It seems kind of odd to me units would rally units for their threat range when the rally'd unit doesn't have a unit-turn.)

Edit: Oh wait, stuffing the unit out of threat range wouldn't work---it needs to stand on the fake bolt trap so that Clarine actually has the 'threatens enemy' status.

Double Edit: Mind, a strong DC unit wouldn't work on the forest tile, but a weak DC unit would. If Azura does 5 damage she's going to run in to suicide rather than dance. (Hence the low-res blue thing.)

Edited by DehNutCase
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1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

Can you double check this part for me with a 1 unit attack team? Like, turn one just stuff that guy between your escape ladder & catapult.

(It seems kind of odd to me units would rally units for their threat range when the rally'd unit doesn't have a unit-turn.)

With that kind of positioning, Takumi won't make the jump. Him using Rally depends on the player have a unit in Clarine's attack range after she moves, which is most of the map. I could move the snowman and catapult to slightly expand her attack range, but I don't think it's necessary given how successful this has been. Part of the challenge for the player is that their own structures work against them by limiting where they can put 5 units.

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12 minutes ago, Johann said:

With that kind of positioning, Takumi won't make the jump. Him using Rally depends on the player have a unit in Clarine's attack range after she moves, which is most of the map. I could move the snowman and catapult to slightly expand her attack range, but I don't think it's necessary given how successful this has been. Part of the challenge for the player is that their own structures work against them by limiting where they can put 5 units.

I was asking more because I wanted to double check whether the AI actually considers offensive threat ranges of units that don't have a turn, but yeah, for your map it doesn't really matter.

Edit: Okay, I tested myself, and it turns out having a unit-turn or not doesn't matter for offensive rallies, weird.

Edited by DehNutCase
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5 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

I was asking more because I wanted to double check whether the AI actually considers offensive threat ranges of units that don't have a turn, but yeah, for your map it doesn't really matter.

It does. Going from this extremely comprehensive AI guide, for a unit to use a Rally, their target must meet one of the following:

  • Has its action
  • Has the "threatening enemy" or "threatened by enemy" status
  • If receiving a rally skill, can be buffed by at least 2 points in one particular stat by the rally
  • If receiving Harsh Command or Sacrifice, must have a stat debuff

Keep that in mind if you see an enemy map that has Restore and someone with a Rally, they might be pulling a similar plan to get the jump. This is something I don't think works as well on a terrain like Spring Breeze due to how it limits the range of an advancing unit, and also that most players box themselves in, allowing you to block off their only approach.

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4 minutes ago, Johann said:

It does. Going from this extremely comprehensive AI guide, for a unit to use a Rally, their target must meet one of the following:

  • Has its action
  • Has the "threatening enemy" or "threatened by enemy" status
  • If receiving a rally skill, can be buffed by at least 2 points in one particular stat by the rally
  • If receiving Harsh Command or Sacrifice, must have a stat debuff

Keep that in mind if you see an enemy map that has Restore and someone with a Rally, they might be pulling a similar plan to get the jump. This is something I don't think works as well on a terrain like Spring Breeze due to how it limits the range of an advancing unit, and also that most players box themselves in, allowing you to block off their only approach.

Pretty sure you have to meet all the requirements.

 

But the rally would be a post-combat buff, so it uses Chart D instead, which doesn't require having an action. (I just tested it myself and post-combat buffing don't care about having an action.)

 

 

Off-topic Edit: Next pair of AR seasons is probably going to be Wind\Water into Wind\Whatever, with Wind\Whatever being the light season. Guess I'm running something stupid like double Gunnthra Camus double Eir, since that only needs 1 Light Blessing. Pity I don't like Gunnthra enough to give her CC Vantage.

Edited by DehNutCase
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1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

Pretty sure you have to meet all the requirements.

Oh right, wrong chart, it's this one:

  • Has "threatens enemy" or "threatened by enemy" status
  • If debuffs are being reversed by Sacrifice, must not be healed by it and cannot have action
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@Johann

Thanks for sharing that. Always nice to learn something about defense maps, even though I don't know if I want to make an investment in defense instead of just waiting for lift loss reduction.

But it may cost you should I get matched against that. Because now that I don't take as much time for every map chances are I would have missed that Takumi can move through forests in this game as well and put support two spaces behind the bait unit and get it killed. I guess now it would be either use Loki to lock Clarine or to both take out Marth and put Grima in front of your Grima turn 1 so your units have no one to port to outside.

 

29 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Edit: Okay, I tested myself, and it turns out having a unit-turn or not doesn't matter for offensive rallies, weird.

Also thanks a lot for that. I totally didn't expect the AI to go rally a unit that can't move anymore, before they were triggered to be offensive by someone going to attack. And I thought I knew at least some things about AI by now. I may have to actually go revisit my defense team with that knowledge.

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1 minute ago, Azuris said:

Also thanks a lot for that. I totally didn't expect the AI to go rally a unit that can't move anymore, before they were triggered to be offensive by someone going to attack. And I thought I knew at least some things about AI by now. I may have to actually go revisit my defense team with that knowledge.

Mind this is only if the AI team has no combats left to take. (That is, they're in the 'post combat buffing' stage.) If they still had combats you do need an action to be rallied.

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2 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Mind this is only if the AI team has no combats left to take. (That is, they're in the 'post combat buffing' stage.) If they still had combats you do need an action to be rallied.

Yes, I'll keep that in mind, thanks. I think I can tell most of the time in what order the AI will do things when they are in "attack mode" or whatever I should call it. But while it is still in it's passive state at the start of an AR game, it would have caught me off guard, that the Ai would do something else than just restore, heal and dance unless there is someone who can actually go and attack.

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1 minute ago, Azuris said:

Thanks for sharing that. Always nice to learn something about defense maps, even though I don't know if I want to make an investment in defense instead of just waiting for lift loss reduction.

But it may cost you should I get matched against that. Because now that I don't take as much time for every map chances are I would have missed that Takumi can move through forests in this game as well and put support two spaces behind the bait unit and get it killed. I guess now it would be either use Loki to lock Clarine or to both take out Marth and put Grima in front of your Grima turn 1 so your units have no one to port to outside.

If you or anyone else here takes on my team, I'm more than happy to give you guys the win if possible. I also only have Fortress (D) at level 2 so you'd have that going for ya. That kind of strategy you're suggesting would work flawlessly, since only my Marth can stand any chance against Grima. Best of all, I'm pretty sure that because of Restore, Clarine wouldn't kill herself against Grima so you wouldn't have to worry about losing the pots due to ending the fight too soon.

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20 minutes ago, Johann said:

If you or anyone else here takes on my team, I'm more than happy to give you guys the win if possible. I also only have Fortress (D) at level 2 so you'd have that going for ya.

Thanks.

 

21 minutes ago, Johann said:

That kind of strategy you're suggesting would work flawlessly, since only my Marth can stand any chance against Grima. Best of all, I'm pretty sure that because of Restore, Clarine wouldn't kill herself against Grima so you wouldn't have to worry about losing the pots due to ending the fight too soon.

It still requires a setup that can get two units up there turn 1, which I have this week but might not without L Azura. I guess it would be possible with your offense building setup to hide 4 units from Takumi, but it would still require to see it coming, which needs some time and good knowledge of the game AI on top of predicting the worst case scenario with your slot order.

Overall it's a pretty well built map, which should catch quite a few people off guard to at least get some units defeated. Good job, coming up with this.

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Thanks to a lucky dodge on defense yesterday, a full 320 lift from today’s fights landed me at 11160, so I’m safe in T21.

Such a relief. Thank goodness for the update (for the umpteenth time). Super Robin, Legendary Azura, and 70 Aether/day were absolute game-changers.

I guess I’ll make my defense map free for what little remains of the season.

Edited by LordFrigid
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After 2 catastrophic runs against 6 unit defenses I score a 140 for myself today, closing with 8440 in AR 19 secured. I see plenty of room to improve my score, so maybe it's T20 that is the tough to get in. I am still satisfied with my 2-3 week old AR team, and next week I'll test out some new 6 unit defenses.

Looking at the scores, hey @mcsilas and @XRay, glad you guys make it.

Talk about T20, @mampfoid did you make it in there?

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2 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

After 2 catastrophic runs against 6 unit defenses I score a 140 for myself today, closing with 8440 in AR 19 secured. I see plenty of room to improve my score, so maybe it's T20 that is the tough to get in. I am still satisfied with my 2-3 week old AR team, and next week I'll test out some new 6 unit defenses.

Looking at the scores, hey @mcsilas and @XRay, glad you guys make it.

Talk about T20, @mampfoid did you make it in there?

Thanks. Running FV!F!Robin to carry the team and two Eirs for Lift helps a lot. The 140 Lift per match allows me to play much more casually as it is no big deal if I miss an Aether Structure here and there.

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Done for the day and safe on tier 20.

Now I need to think about my defense setup for next week, since Robin won't be buffed by Eir and she's not a bonus unit anymore. Maybe I'll bring back Surtr.

Also thinking about promoting Lilina for her refine and trying to set up a trap with Flying Dancer and Guidance + Rally on Lilina. She would also be useful in raiding parties to take out Surtrs, but I usually carry around my Festival Micaiah for that when it's not Light Season.

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3 hours ago, Garlyle said:

After 2 catastrophic runs against 6 unit defenses I score a 140 for myself today, closing with 8440 in AR 19 secured. I see plenty of room to improve my score, so maybe it's T20 that is the tough to get in. I am still satisfied with my 2-3 week old AR team, and next week I'll test out some new 6 unit defenses.

Looking at the scores, hey @mcsilas and @XRay, glad you guys make it.

Talk about T20, @mampfoid did you make it in there?

Glad you secured tier 19 already! 

Lost my last ladder today, I'll try again later. Need perhaps some more concentration. Still possible to reach tier 20, I'm at 9,280 lift. Four raids to go. 

/Edit: 9,580, I think I did it. :-)

Edited by mampfoid
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2 hours ago, mampfoid said:

Glad you secured tier 19 already! 

Lost my last ladder today, I'll try again later. Need perhaps some more concentration. Still possible to reach tier 20, I'm at 9,280 lift. Four raids to go. 

/Edit: 9,580, I think I did it. :-)

That looks secured to me. Good job out there.

Well, with 140 lift team I need to be on my game the next time we get Light bonuses - if you guys had this difficulty with T20 I mean.

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3 hours ago, Garlyle said:

After 2 catastrophic runs against 6 unit defenses I score a 140 for myself today, closing with 8440 in AR 19 secured. I see plenty of room to improve my score, so maybe it's T20 that is the tough to get in. I am still satisfied with my 2-3 week old AR team, and next week I'll test out some new 6 unit defenses.

Looking at the scores, hey @mcsilas and @XRay, glad you guys make it.

Talk about T20, @mampfoid did you make it in there?

 

3 hours ago, XRay said:

Thanks. Running FV!F!Robin to carry the team and two Eirs for Lift helps a lot. The 140 Lift per match allows me to play much more casually as it is no big deal if I miss an Aether Structure here and there.

Thanks! Yeah I've been doing what Xray has done with Robin in the last half of the week, I should've done it sooner (I was so impressed with Vantage, I thought I misclicked but she just soloed the team after surviving a Cherche in a tight chokepoint).

Also I can't believe I forgot about upgrading my aether structures, I've been refreshing 50 Aether for so long I forgot I could upgrade it to 60 all this time (could've gone to Tier 19 sooner). Oh well, 70 Aether refresh is nice now that we have it and my main goal is T19 just so I can have more fun making defense teams.

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Got two perfect 140 runs today, putting me into T20 by 60 points. Could lose it if I get a -80 and lose both of my runs tomorrow, but hopefully that won't happen.

Had a funny start to one of today's runs where I tried to bait a Veronica on the first turn, forgetting that my Tactics Room would keep her from reaching. But the opponent had a catapult in that column, breaking my Tactics Room so I was able to bait her on the second turn instead.

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3 hours ago, Garlyle said:

That looks secured to me. Good job out there.

Well, with 140 lift team I need to be on my game the next time we get Light bonuses - if you guys had this difficulty with T20 I mean.

Thanks!

Yeah, I made many errors in the beginning of the week. Changing to Grima really helped. Should be doable with a 140 team. 

3 hours ago, mcsilas said:

Thanks! Yeah I've been doing what Xray has done with Robin in the last half of the week, I should've done it sooner (I was so impressed with Vantage, I thought I misclicked but she just soloed the team after surviving a Cherche in a tight chokepoint).

 

Congrats making it to tier 19! Looks like both accounts are save? 

Couldn't imagine to do this two times ... 

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Congrats to everyone who promoted!  Sounds like lots of folks are movin' on up!  I'm also moving up to T20 for good with a current score of 9,640!  I could still get over 10,000 by the end of the season (like it means much)....

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11 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

Thanks to a lucky dodge on defense yesterday, a full 320 lift from today’s fights landed me at 11160, so I’m safe in T21.

Congratulations. Done with even a day to spare, that's really impressive. Well done.

 

8 hours ago, mampfoid said:

/Edit: 9,580, I think I did it. :-)

Ha! And you thought you may not make it. Congratulations. Good job.

 

2 hours ago, DarkAlf said:

I'm also moving up to T20 for good with a current score of 9,640!

Wow, really good, if you went at it from the start you would have outperformed me a long time ago. Keep it up. Well done.

 

@Garlyle @XRay @Rinco @Vicious Sal @mcsilas

Congratulations to all of you. That was a good performance and well deserved.

 

I won't congratulate the ones that are close but not safe, so I won't jinx it.

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