Aether Raids General Thread

[Johann]

47 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Or they could just have a giant pile of pitybreaker Dorcases like I do (just not merged like mine are). Or Helbindi since I'm sure some people pulled extras for G Duel Infantry and repurposed spares for Infantry Pulse.

Perhaps, but are you gonna use them on units with under 40 HP solely for AR defense? It's a pretty big investment for maybe getting some good defense results, compared to using those skills for any other mode. On top of that, many of these setups make sense in terms of unit builds, but leave some major flaw in their map setup, causing the whole thing to fall apart.

Part of me also suspects that they might add some kind of Witchy Wand-esque structure or skill eventually. I do think a lot of people are going to make an effort to pull Halloween Mia when she returns if only to deal with these setups (interestingly, her banner ended the day Aether Raids were added).

[Landmaster]

Made T19 finally, whew~ I don't see any hope in the world of me getting higher without Mythic Heroes, but I'm happy I was able to get this high~

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Johann said:

Perhaps, but are you gonna use them on units with under 40 HP solely for AR defense? It's a pretty big investment for maybe getting some good defense results, compared to using those skills for any other mode.

It's no different than inheriting Duel skills just for the Arena, so I don't see why not.

 

4 minutes ago, Johann said:

On top of that, many of these setups make sense in terms of unit builds, but leave some major flaw in their map setup, causing the whole thing to fall apart.

It's not possible to make a map that is completely invulnerable to everything. You can't get rid of all of the holes in your map, so the goal is to leave as few open as you can.

 

7 minutes ago, Johann said:

Part of me also suspects that they might add some kind of Witchy Wand-esque structure or skill eventually. I do think a lot of people are going to make an effort to pull Halloween Mia when she returns if only to deal with these setups (interestingly, her banner ended the day Aether Raids were added).

Flash has already been implemented as a standard version of Candlelight, so it's not unlikely the same will happen to Witchy Wand eventually. However, it'll likely be after next Halloween if it happens so that they can continue to market Mia though her banner's rerun.

[Johann]

14 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

Made T19 finally, whew~ I don't see any hope in the world of me getting higher without Mythic Heroes, but I'm happy I was able to get this high~

That's awesome! Wait, you have Eir though, right? It's possible to get to T21 with just one Eir but yeah you might need a clever Def map to secure that.

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's no different than inheriting Duel skills just for the Arena, so I don't see why not.

You don't see the difference between investing in skills that boost your Arena offense score vs skills that might maybe help in AR defense some of the time? 

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's not possible to make a map that is completely invulnerable to everything. You can't get rid of all of the holes in your map, so the goal is to leave as few open as you can.

All the more reason to not go so hard into investing for something that might make zero difference. There are cheaper ways to get comparable results.

[Landmaster]

2 minutes ago, Johann said:

That's awesome! Wait, you have Eir though, right? It's possible to get to T21 with just one Eir but yeah you might need a clever Def map to secure that.

Thanks! I do have Eir but I've never used her, like she's not even grinded up, haha~ But you're right, even if I did have her, my Def map's not all that well thought out so I still won't be getting enough wins to match up with Offensive battles~

I'm content with T19, though~

[Johann]

8 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

Thanks! I do have Eir but I've never used her, like she's not even grinded up, haha~ But you're right, even if I did have her, my Def map's not all that well thought out so I still won't be getting enough wins to match up with Offensive battles~

I'm content with T19, though~

Didn't think I'd be using this gif twice in two days

Eir's pretty great though, and getting the HP/Res boost along with the healing is so nice for AR. She's not bad in other modes too! But then I'm speaking as somebody who has like no good ranged fliers, so...

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Johann said:

You don't see the difference between investing in skills that boost your Arena offense score vs skills that might maybe help in AR defense some of the time? 

I don't know what people use Duel skills for on Arena offense nor do I care, but I can tell you that I commonly see Summer Tana, Celica, Julia, Nino, and Soren with Duel skills on Arena defense.

[Landmaster]

28 minutes ago, Johann said:

Didn't think I'd be using this gif twice in two days

Eir's pretty great though, and getting the HP/Res boost along with the healing is so nice for AR. She's not bad in other modes too! But then I'm speaking as somebody who has like no good ranged fliers, so...

I don't like either of their designs LOOOL~

Yeah I know she's good, though, especially for F2P content~ I just feel like I'm going to eventually feed her to Alm anyway so I'm a bit wary on going through the trouble of grinding her up~ Plus I never use the Light Blessings either (I prefer making sure I can do the Gardens) so it wouldn't make any difference for me honestly~

I just want the Grails and Flowers TBH~

[Lewyn]

I'm trying to rethink my strategies and teams since this is an offweak.  Well offense strategies more, I finally got enough dew and upgraded offense fortress to lvl4 which should help.  As I have said many times, no L! Azura, no null disrupt or null follow up, no ophelia, no Loki.  Some of the common units.  My highest merge unit is Aversa at +5, a few other units are at +3...there is no +10 high investment unit that can carry. 

So here it is, what about close counter or distant counter vantage builds?  Apparently these are very popular, however that would require the vantage unit to be able to one shot regardless of color.  I figure this is great against frail mages, or if using a bow user against flier teams.  I assume this is a no go against teams with Veronica unless you have a way to safely take her out player phase first.  

Tier 21 and up players can you list your main offense teams and the thought behind their formation?  

[Johann]

23 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I don't know what people use Duel skills for on Arena offense nor do I care, but I can tell you that I commonly see Summer Tana, Celica, Julia, Nino, and Soren with Duel skills on Arena defense.

Yeah dude I'm sure they totally went all in for Arena defense and it's not incidental from them focusing on Arena offense

25 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

I don't like either of their designs LOOOL~

I respect this and I would totally pass their stats/skills/etc to totally different characters if I could. Leiptr & Ice Mirror for Devdan! Let him be the new princess of Nifl!

1 minute ago, Lewyn said:

So here it is, what about close counter or distant counter vantage builds?  Apparently these are very popular, however that would require the vantage unit to be able to one shot regardless of color.  I figure this is great against frail mages, or if using a bow user against flier teams.  I assume this is a no go against teams with Veronica unless you have a way to safely take her out player phase first.  

Tier 21 and up players can you list your main offense teams and the thought behind their formation?  

Vantage builds are extremely effective, provided you are paying attention to enemy skills. Hardy Bearing, Firesweep/Dazzling weapons, and things like Dawn Suzu can get you if you're not aware of how the enemy AI is going to move. A common example is Ophelia with Hardy Bearing and a Rally skill. If someone else is being baited while she's out of range, she will attempt to Rally them. If she's now in range of attacking, an enemy dancer will Dance Ophelia and then she's got the jump on you (plus with any stat boosts and dropping Panic/penalties she had before).

With that in mind, it can be important to not rely on Vantage builds alone. One way you can support the Vantage unit is by having another durable unit (ideally who can counter kill) bait their threats at the same time, but this depends heavily on the map allowing such a possibility (more common in Spring Breeze, much less so in Abandoned Castle). Other than that, just don't make the Vantage unit your sole strategy.

As for as my teams go, it varies by season and bonus unit availability, but in these off seasons the core idea focuses on:

• Hrid and Aversa: Hrid's crazy bulk makes him really hard to stop. Aversa adds the highly necessary debuffs to most units, allowing Hrid to either run in or just plain bait stuff. I frequently add Gunnthra and/or Clarine (with Gravity) for extra support.
• Frederick, Ursula, and Cain: Unmatched armor and cavalry killing power. Having someone who can kill either unit type without depending on doubles is a huge help. My Cain has Zanbato and Galeforce (which itself is extremely valuable in AR). WoM is also amazing for those setups that limit your approach.
• Legendary Robin or Fjorm: Like Hrid, these two have exceptional bulk if you're willing to focus on them. I'll use either depending on active blessings, or even both sometimes (but not on the same team, since they cover most of the same threats). Also like Hrid, the idea is to just buff them up and let your opponents die against them or send them in to pick off their one threat and shrug off the rest.
• Legendary Roy: Standard Vantage build. Roy's potential for really high Atk and dragon effectiveness makes him a great candidate for this kind of thing, and his good Res is salvageable, especially during Light/Fire seasons. Goes well with Eir since the -7 Def from attacking with a dagger can seal the deal for him.
• Legendary Tiki, Hawkeye and Legendary Marth: Haven't used this setup much but it's for killing dragons/mages. Hawkeye is +10, +Res, with DC and Fire Blessing, I needed him when I kept running into Lancebreaker Julias. Tiki is also one of few units who can reliably counter kill Tibarn (gave her Glimmer to make super sure she does).
• Female Robin: Another one I haven't used much at all, but I did toss her a Light Blessing. Very easy to get her bulk up enough to where she can't be hurt by Veronica, Eir, Lyn, Reinhardt, Ophelia, etc. If Null C-Disrupt was a seal or otherwise more readily available, she'd be even more amazing.

Note that I always run Legendary Azura, unless it's Light season but not Water.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Johann said:

Yeah dude I'm sure they totally went all in for Arena defense and it's not incidental from them focusing on Arena offense

Except these are the same people who have mountains upon mountains of score-optimized armored units that they'd most likely be using for Arena offense instead of lower-scoring Duel units. And I know they have those armored units because when you're at the top of the Arena, you see the same names over and over week after week with slowly changing teams.

[Johann]

17 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Except these are the same people who have mountains upon mountains of score-optimized armored units that they'd most likely be using for Arena offense instead of lower-scoring Duel units. And I know they have those armored units because when you're at the top of the Arena, you see the same names over and over week after week with slowly changing teams.

Don't look now, but you're proving my point about petty people making absurd investments for little to no practical gain but for some ego boost from showing off and seeing pleasing Def results

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Johann said:

Don't look now, but you're proving my point about petty people making absurd investments for little to no practical gain but for some ego boost from showing off and seeing pleasing Def results

I don't think the "little to no practical gain" is a valid argument here.

In particular, I would assume that defense wins with teams built for score are not common without running something to trip up challengers either in the form of armor-effective weapons or ranged Duel units, largely because players at the top are very used to fighting conventional score-focused defense teams and can generally win without much issue.

Running a Duel unit could very well be the difference between having a defense win and not having a defense win.

Ultimately, this is a strategy game, and having resources means nothing unless you actually use them. In the end, these are still calculated moves designed both to provide a measurable benefit as well as to boast to other players.

 

On a side note, improving your defense win rate by just 10% is an average of 56 points per season if you aren't running a defense Mythic. If running a Pulse team boosts your win rate by just 35% compared to whatever you would otherwise be running, that's already half of a Tier worth of points on average.

I think there is a visible performance benefit in running a Pulse team. If you have 3 spare copies of Dorcas that are otherwise doing nothing, why not turn them into a defense team that produces you visible benefit?

[Johann]

20 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I don't think the "little to no practical gain" is a valid argument here.

In particular, I would assume that defense wins with teams built for score are not common without running something to trip up challengers either in the form of armor-effective weapons or ranged Duel units, largely because players at the top are very used to fighting conventional score-focused defense teams and can generally win without much issue.

Running a Duel unit could very well be the difference between having a defense win and not having a defense win.

Ultimately, this is a strategy game, and having resources means nothing unless you actually use them. In the end, these are still calculated moves designed both to provide a measurable benefit as well as to boast to other players.

 

On a side note, improving your defense win rate by just 10% is an average of 56 points per season if you aren't running a defense Mythic. If running a Pulse team boosts your win rate by just 35% compared to whatever you would otherwise be running, that's already half of a Tier worth of points on average.

I think there is a visible performance benefit in running a Pulse team. If you have 3 spare copies of Dorcas that are otherwise doing nothing, why not turn them into a defense team that produces you visible benefit?

They're really hurting for those 900 feathers and 1 grail, huh

edit: I wanna point out that one of the most dangerous things you could put on your AR defense team is this monster

Edited March 12, 2019 by Johann

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Johann said:

They're really hurting for those 900 feathers and 1 grail, huh

Every little bit adds up, and I see no reason not to just get them if you have the resources to spare to do so.

I don't see any reason why necessity needs to play a part in it. You don't need to be hurting for money to want to pick up a dollar bill lying on the ground, or, for a perhaps more relatable example, to drive a block or two out of the way for gas a few cents cheaper per gallon.

[Johann]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Every little bit adds up, and I see no reason not to just get them if you have the resources to spare to do so.

I don't see any reason why necessity needs to play a part in it. You don't need to be hurting for money to want to pick up a dollar bill lying on the ground, or, for a perhaps more relatable example, to drive a block or two out of the way for gas a few cents cheaper per gallon.

You're running on two dumb assumptions:

• That this is the most consistent way to get those minimal rewards, even though it's definitely not for Arena Def and impossible to prove for AR Def
• That these players are not spending real money, which trivializes any feather reward and doesn't ensure AR offense success

[Ice Dragon]

8 minutes ago, Johann said:

That this is the most consistent way to get those minimal rewards, even though it's definitely not for Arena Def

Bragging rights is at least half of the reward, so no, this is, in fact, the most consistent way to get both bragging rights and the 900 feathers.

 

9 minutes ago, Johann said:

and impossible to prove for AR Def

It can definitely be proven for Aether Raids defense by simply keeping track of your win rate week by week (each enemy killed on a failed defense up to the 4th is still 1/4 of a win since it still rewards points) and comparing against other players.

 

10 minutes ago, Johann said:

That these players are not spending real money, which trivializes any feather reward and doesn't ensure AR offense success

I've made no assumption that these are free-to-players.

Pitybreakers are always effectively free in the eyes of a paying player because they came as a bonus to the characters they were actually pulling for. When I pull for 11 copies of Idunn, I'm paying money that I've deemed worth 11 copies of Idunn. If I happen to grab a bunch of random other characters on my way there, those came at no additional cost to what I've already deemed was worth 11 copies of Idunn.

[Johann]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Bragging rights is at least half of the reward, so no, this is, in fact, the most consistent way to get both bragging rights and the 900 feathers.

So it's petty ego shit, got it

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

It can definitely be proven for Aether Raids defense by simply keeping track of your win rate week by week (each enemy killed on a failed defense up to the 4th is still 1/4 of a win since it still rewards points) and comparing against other players.

Nah dude, changes to bonus structures, bonus units, seasons, etc can all make a notable difference to how well things work in AR in a given week, to say nothing of the fact that many old cheap tricks are still crazy effective against a lot of players.

17 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I've made no assumption that these are free-to-players.

Pitybreakers are always effectively free in the eyes of a paying player because they came as a bonus to the characters they were actually pulling for. When I pull for 11 copies of Idunn, I'm paying money that I've deemed worth 11 copies of Idunn. If I happen to grab a bunch of random other characters on my way there, those came at no additional cost to what I've already deemed was worth 11 copies of Idunn.

Then the second part applies: The feather rewards are trivialized and there's no assurance AR offense success.

[daisy jane]

46 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Pitybreakers are always effectively free in the eyes of a paying player because they came as a bonus to the characters they were actually pulling for. When I pull for 11 copies of Idunn, I'm paying money that I've deemed worth 11 copies of Idunn. If I happen to grab a bunch of random other characters on my way there, those came at no additional cost to what I've already deemed was worth 11 copies of Idunn.

for you maybe. 
i know a lot of people who've paid who 100 percent would not agree with you. 

[Lewyn]

2 hours ago, Johann said:

Yeah dude I'm sure they totally went all in for Arena defense and it's not incidental from them focusing on Arena offense

I respect this and I would totally pass their stats/skills/etc to totally different characters if I could. Leiptr & Ice Mirror for Devdan! Let him be the new princess of Nifl!

Vantage builds are extremely effective, provided you are paying attention to enemy skills. Hardy Bearing, Firesweep/Dazzling weapons, and things like Dawn Suzu can get you if you're not aware of how the enemy AI is going to move. A common example is Ophelia with Hardy Bearing and a Rally skill. If someone else is being baited while she's out of range, she will attempt to Rally them. If she's now in range of attacking, an enemy dancer will Dance Ophelia and then she's got the jump on you (plus with any stat boosts and dropping Panic/penalties she had before).

With that in mind, it can be important to not rely on Vantage builds alone. One way you can support the Vantage unit is by having another durable unit (ideally who can counter kill) bait their threats at the same time, but this depends heavily on the map allowing such a possibility (more common in Spring Breeze, much less so in Abandoned Castle). Other than that, just don't make the Vantage unit your sole strategy.

As for as my teams go, it varies by season and bonus unit availability, but in these off seasons the core idea focuses on:

• Hrid and Aversa: Hrid's crazy bulk makes him really hard to stop. Aversa adds the highly necessary debuffs to most units, allowing Hrid to either run in or just plain bait stuff. I frequently add Gunnthra and/or Clarine (with Gravity) for extra support.
• Frederick, Ursula, and Cain: Unmatched armor and cavalry killing power. Having someone who can kill either unit type without depending on doubles is a huge help. My Cain has Zanbato and Galeforce (which itself is extremely valuable in AR). WoM is also amazing for those setups that limit your approach.
• Legendary Robin or Fjorm: Like Hrid, these two have exceptional bulk if you're willing to focus on them. I'll use either depending on active blessings, or even both sometimes (but not on the same team, since they cover most of the same threats). Also like Hrid, the idea is to just buff them up and let your opponents die against them or send them in to pick off their one threat and shrug off the rest.
• Legendary Roy: Standard Vantage build. Roy's potential for really high Atk and dragon effectiveness makes him a great candidate for this kind of thing, and his good Res is salvageable, especially during Light/Fire seasons. Goes well with Eir since the -7 Def from attacking with a dagger can seal the deal for him.
• Legendary Tiki, Hawkeye and Legendary Marth: Haven't used this setup much but it's for killing dragons/mages. Hawkeye is +10, +Res, with DC and Fire Blessing, I needed him when I kept running into Lancebreaker Julias. Tiki is also one of few units who can reliably counter kill Tibarn (gave her Glimmer to make super sure she does).
• Female Robin: Another one I haven't used much at all, but I did toss her a Light Blessing. Very easy to get her bulk up enough to where she can't be hurt by Veronica, Eir, Lyn, Reinhardt, Ophelia, etc. If Null C-Disrupt was a seal or otherwise more readily available, she'd be even more amazing.

Note that I always run Legendary Azura, unless it's Light season but not Water.

Do the Ophelia's (or other characters) running Hardy Bearing usually have it leveled up?  Duma is a bonus unit this week, so I could run him on offense too and if they don't have Eir on their team maybe that can counter that strategy.  Though they would also not have to have healers either, who depending on their placement may heal Ophelia first.

I like running Aversa a lot, and I do have Gunnthra too.  Horses (Gunnthra, Veronica or Bow Lyn, Hrid, Camus) with an Aversa have generally worked fairly well.  Thing is my Hrid is +HP (so more bulk) but -atk which is going to hurt his killing ability.  

I have Silas as armor killer and Panne or Gray as horse killers, but neither are heavily invested into (no DC).  Veronica can be a problem as far as horses cause I can't counter her so I have to player phase.  Even if I can tank her successfully many times she is in range of a dancer and then she will go and attack one of my more vulnerable units.  The rest of the horses I can usually handle (though firesweep anything is tough) without special devotion.  Micaiah and Dancing Micaiah I have for armors, but I don't run into all armor teams much usually just one or two at most.

As I said I don't have legendary Azura, so I rely on other dancers of which I have most of them (no Flying Olivia or the Hoshiden dancers besides Micaiah).  

For my vantage unit I was thinking of Camus, mine is at +3 and already is running vantage.  Brazen Atk/def in the seal slot and attack tactic or hone cav buff and would that be enough to take out most mages? Guess I could experiment with that.  

[Ice Dragon]

30 minutes ago, Johann said:

So it's petty ego shit, got it

Coming around full circle, you still haven't managed to make a decent argument as to why "petty ego shit" means that they actually care that you beat them once.

You seem to think that people who have their ego inflated by their high-value defense team seem to take a loss as a monumental disaster such that you sticking it to their face by destroying their defense team is actually meaningful to them. If anything, I think that you're the one having your ego inflated by your victory thinking that you're the only one who was able to thwart them.

 

30 minutes ago, Johann said:

Nah dude, changes to bonus structures, bonus units, seasons, etc can all make a notable difference to how well things work in AR in a given week,

Comparing against other players in the same week means you're all using the same bonus structures and bonus units.

Bonus structures also cycle in the same order. Seasons also cycle in the same order. These are all factors that can easily be accounted for over time.

I don't think bonus units change the landscape as much as you think. They basically skew the availability of certain unit roles, but that also averages out over time.

 

30 minutes ago, Johann said:

to say nothing of the fact that many old cheap tricks are still crazy effective against a lot of players.

And why wouldn't this, like everything else, average out over time? Literally the entire point of averages is to smooth out outliers.

 

30 minutes ago, Johann said:

The feather rewards are trivialized

And as I literally just said, every little bit counts for something.

 

30 minutes ago, Johann said:

there's no assurance AR offense success.

Being assured success is always wishful thinking whether or not you spend money.

What spending money does is make success easier by giving you more resources to use, and any boost at all is better than no boost.

 

5 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

for you maybe. 
i know a lot of people who've paid who 100 percent would not agree with you. 

Which part and why? "Nope" is literally not an actual argument.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[daisy jane]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Which part and why? "Nope" is literally not an argument.

what do you mean which part? 
the whole thing.

they aren't "effectively free". they are what get in your way. they drive up the cost of what you wanted. . You might believe that getting other stuff (maybe wanted, maybe not desired) is worth that cost  - and I don't know your budget or anything, it just seems you seem to always have money to 11 copy whatever you want - which - honestly - lucky you. but as someone who got 10  pitybreakers and no Lazuras off the anniversary banner - two units out of that 10 were actually useful to me. 2. out of 10. and No focus unit. and I don't have the bottomless wallet that a lot of people seem to have to just keep on going and hope to get the unit (even 11 copies). so if you are lucky and you stick between your budget. sure. they can be free

but if not. or you don't get lucky at all? then it's not. like I said. for you, sure it might work out roses for you but for a lot of people no. 

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

they are what get in your way. they drive up the cost of what you wanted.

Statistically speaking, this is untrue.

If you are calculating the average cost of a copy of Idunn (or Legendary Azura in your case) when going for a large number of copies without considering how pitybreakers affect the cost, then you're just doing the math wrong. It's no different than going to the grocery store and forgetting that you need to pay for sales tax (for those not in the U.S., sales tax is typically never included in the listed price on items in the U.S.).

As for your particular experience with Legendary Azura, you (1) got unlucky and (2) likely didn't pull enough times for volume to drown out random variation. Furthermore, I'm also willing to bet that for every time you got unlucky like this, there was also a time you got extremely lucky and got what you were looking for right off the bat. Over time, those lucky occurrences and unlucky occurrences will balance themselves out so that the money saved by getting something right off the bat and the money lost by getting unlucky will end up being close to the same.

I have banners where I get lucky. I have banners where I get unlucky. But I have a (public) spreadsheet with all of my pulls on it (minus the first week of playing this game), and I can assure you that the lucky streaks and unlucky streaks do balance each other out eventually.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

29 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Do the Ophelia's (or other characters) running Hardy Bearing usually have it leveled up?  Duma is a bonus unit this week, so I could run him on offense too and if they don't have Eir on their team maybe that can counter that strategy.  Though they would also not have to have healers either, who depending on their placement may heal Ophelia first.

I like running Aversa a lot, and I do have Gunnthra too.  Horses (Gunnthra, Veronica or Bow Lyn, Hrid, Camus) with an Aversa have generally worked fairly well.  Thing is my Hrid is +HP (so more bulk) but -atk which is going to hurt his killing ability.  

I have Silas as armor killer and Panne or Gray as horse killers, but neither are heavily invested into (no DC).  Veronica can be a problem as far as horses cause I can't counter her so I have to player phase.  Even if I can tank her successfully many times she is in range of a dancer and then she will go and attack one of my more vulnerable units.  The rest of the horses I can usually handle (though firesweep anything is tough) without special devotion.  Micaiah and Dancing Micaiah I have for armors, but I don't run into all armor teams much usually just one or two at most.

As I said I don't have legendary Azura, so I rely on other dancers of which I have most of them (no Flying Olivia or the Hoshiden dancers besides Micaiah).  

For my vantage unit I was thinking of Camus, mine is at +3 and already is running vantage.  Brazen Atk/def in the seal slot and attack tactic or hone cav buff and would that be enough to take out most mages? Guess I could experiment with that.  

Almost anyone making a team with Ophelia or similar instant-nuker setups will have Hardy Bearing at at least level 2. There's usually also a Healing Tower positioned nearby, though I guess Duma could be used to strategically trash that.  CC blade mages (especially horse mages) tend to have the advantage for Vantage shenanigans in this case because there's a chance they might be able to be positioned to snipe the Hardy Bearing unit (well, melee might too, if the Hardy Bearing unit is positioned poorly, but most people at least make some effort to hide them farther back).

I've still personally had success running L!Hector (who could probably be substituted with any Hector, really), FH!Takumi (no CC) and Black Knight, so DC melees are definitely more than viable, but there's been comps where I've just had to shelve the Vantage setup and bring something else because of Hardy Bearing in the corner that I might have been able to snipe if I was running CC Blarblade+ Rein instead.

[XRay]

4 hours ago, Lewyn said:

I'm trying to rethink my strategies and teams since this is an offweak.  Well offense strategies more, I finally got enough dew and upgraded offense fortress to lvl4 which should help.  As I have said many times, no L! Azura, no null disrupt or null follow up, no ophelia, no Loki.  Some of the common units.  My highest merge unit is Aversa at +5, a few other units are at +3...there is no +10 high investment unit that can carry. 

So here it is, what about close counter or distant counter vantage builds?  Apparently these are very popular, however that would require the vantage unit to be able to one shot regardless of color.  I figure this is great against frail mages, or if using a bow user against flier teams.  I assume this is a no go against teams with Veronica unless you have a way to safely take her out player phase first.  

Tier 21 and up players can you list your main offense teams and the thought behind their formation?  

Counter-Vantage builds are great when they work, but not so great when they do not work. As @Johann said, it should not be the only trick up your sleeve. Not all defense teams run 2 or more Firesweep nukes or Hardy Bearing units, so if you snipe the one or two who can bypass Vantage on Turn 1 or Turn 2, it is pretty easy kill off the rest of the defense team. There are quite a lot of defense teams out there made to counter Counter-Vantage, so Counter-Vantage is not always going to work.

Sometimes it is so effective that you accidentally solo the entire defense team on Turn 1 and miss out on the Aether Structures, so you might want to be a little careful of where you position the unit.

If you have more Distant Counters to spare, you can also give it to Sharena and run a carry team/super tank team. The idea is basically have one unit (Sharena in this case) be buffed with an insane amount of Drives by 2 or 3 buffers and have 1 or 2 Eir provide stats (HP/Res), healing, and scoring.

46 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

For my vantage unit I was thinking of Camus, mine is at +3 and already is running vantage.  Brazen Atk/def in the seal slot and attack tactic or hone cav buff and would that be enough to take out most mages? Guess I could experiment with that.  

I do not recommend any unit for Vantage that cannot easily reach 75+ Atk at 5*+0. For Aether Raids, I would argue a Counter-Vantage unit needs 85+ Atk since you have to factor in armor units and merged units.

Vantage is worthless on units that do not have high Atk since they cannot kill foes in one hit, which means foes will just eat and survive the counter and kill your unit.

If you do not have VS!Azura, the easiest Counter-Vantage units to use are Blade mages fliers and ponies, Keaton, and Ares. Blade fliers and ponies have access to movement type buffs to get them running, Ares only need Atk Tactic and Def Tactic to maximize his damage output, and Keaton is even easier as he just needs Atk Tactic.

5 hours ago, Johann said:

All the more reason to not go so hard into investing for something that might make zero difference. There are cheaper ways to get comparable results.

Often times, Pulse teams or whatever broken set ups are the cheapest option. For players who primarily summon for game play performance instead of for favorites, the best skills in the game are actually pretty easy to obtain. With so many players able to summon and merge their favorites to +10, it is just as equally easy to apply that same amount of effort into meta skills and units.

Firesweep Bow, Wrathful Staff, Dazzling Staff, and Distant Counter are relatively expensive for most players, but those skills are pretty cheap for me because I did not shy away from colorless Orbs and I made sure to grab a Hector or two whenever he is a Focus unit. In contrast, Steady Breath and Warding Breath are very expensive for me because I did not prioritize sniping for Breaths as I did for Distant Counter.

37 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

they aren't "effectively free". they are what get in your way. they drive up the cost of what you wanted.

Unless they are extremely lucky, players planning to +10 5* exclusive units can expect a lot of pity breakers whether they want them or not. Pity breakers are "free" in the sense that they are unavoidable.

Edited March 13, 2019 by XRay