Treatment of Female Lords in their games (save Eirika)

[eclipse]

So, of the four female lords:

- Celica's personality is from another time, IMO.  The naive maiden in distress isn't looked upon too fondly these days, especially if she's a main character.  About the only decision I agree with is going by "Celica" instead of her birth name. . .because who thought that would be a good name for a kid?!  Her lategame decisions are understandable, though (look at her upbringing).

- Lyn contributes to world-building, whether it be internal politics or the underlying racism theme.  While she doesn't have as big of a splash as Hector/Eliwood, I won't fault her for that, because FE7 is a prequel, and it's still better than Star Wars.  Kinda wish she was a better unit, though.

- The issue I have with Eir is that Lyon had to be portrayed as a weak villain, which in turn hampers Eir's character.  If Ephraim's route didn't exist, it might not have been as bad, but at least Lyon shows initiative in that route (and I like the fact that Eir learns her lesson faster than her brother).  IMO it feels like she's reacting rather than acting (though her decision to go to Carcino is a notable exception), and that's not a point in her favor.

- I could go on all day about why I don't like Micaiah, and I still wouldn't like her even if Ike didn't exist.  While I can logically understand why she was given a cadre of insane powers, it does no favors for her character.  Ike had to fight his way to the top on his own abilities, yet Micaiah needs her heron blood to keep up?  She becomes better in Part 3, where she has to rely on herself, but even then, it's too late to redeem her.  She would've made a cool foil to Ike if she relied solely on her wits to shine, with the rest of the Dawn Brigade being her muscle (as opposed to Ike's brawn and Soren's brains).

- I think FE6 would have been far more interesting if Guinevere was the lord of the game.   Having her fight to redeem her country, while convincing the other nations to stand by her would've made for a hell of a political plot.  Honorable mention to Cecilia, for having to raise hell multiple times (it would've been cool if we had a few chapters where we the player had to deal with her nonsense).

[Rose482]

But Micaiah wasn't on top when you first get to meet her in FE10, if anything she was on the very bottom, and really that's mostly the case for the most part of the game, even with all her powers, and if anything some of her powers ended up putting her in a worst spot, like....for example, her ability to see that Pelleas's heart was at the right place is what you can say put her on the wrong side at the start of part 3, because she knew his heart was the right place, she didn't question him much about why he wanted to start a war.

 

And like her other two abilities, Sacrifice and Farsight while helped, they weren't game changing, or at least Sacrifice wasn't, but I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that she did start on the bottom, even if she had all those abilities, without the help of others, she wouldn't had been able to rise to the top on her own, even with those abilities at her side, which to me is one of the reasons I love her so much as a character and a lord.

 

Anyway, I hope Edelgard gets to shine in FE16, I would like to believe the writers would do her better, and I do feel like she's the most hyped out of the new protagonists, so I have hopes they will do her justice here.  

Edited November 23, 2018 by Rose482

[NekoKnight]

5 hours ago, Rose482 said:

But Micaiah wasn't on top when you first get to meet her in FE10, if anything she was on the very bottom, and really that's mostly the case for the most part of the game, even with all her powers, and if anything some of her powers ended up putting her in a worst spot, like....for example, her ability to see that Pelleas's heart was at the right place is what you can say put her on the wrong side at the start of part 3, because she knew his heart was the right place, she didn't question him much about why he wanted to start a war.

 

And like her other two abilities, Sacrifice and Farsight while helped, they weren't game changing, or at least Sacrifice wasn't, but I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that she did start on the bottom, even if she had all those abilities, without the help of others, she wouldn't had been able to rise to the top on her own, even with those abilities at her side, which to me is one of the reasons I love her so much as a character and a lord.

All of this. Micaiah's powers are more a hint towards her special bloodline than they are major game changers. At most, they help inspire the Daein people to rally behind her. It's not like they ever help her win battles she couldn't otherwise.

[DefyingFates]

12 hours ago, Erureido said:

I brought up that video and scene from SoV as a response to Mir saying that Eirika is worse than Celica because of how she still gave the stone to Lyon despite what someone else told her prior unlike Celica, so I wanted to point out to him that if that scene between L'arachel and Eirika alone made Eirika look silly in his eyes for what would follow, then he should also have the same sentiments toward Celica because she too had someone tell her why she shouldn't fall for the villain's trick.

Me personally? I like Eirika more than Celica for reasons you and Nekoknight have stated. In fact, regarding your counterpoint, I completely agree with you on that. When I mentioned "the irredeemably evil Jedah and the Duma Faithful" earlier, I had that fact in mind regarding how Jedah and his followers constantly threatened Celica that he would murder her army. It's also worth mentioning Jedah flat out states he wants to "usher in an age of chaos and destruction" by resurrecting Duma, and that only made him look even more like a hate doll that Celica was too silly to trust.

My mistake, that's what I get for reading threads on a train :P

Thank you for your points and support though, you're really eloquent here and that makes me smile. I'd forgotten about Jedah literally saying he wants an "age of chaos" too. Yeah...Celica's really not the sharpest tool in the shed.

[Eryon]

On 11/23/2018 at 2:51 PM, eclipse said:

So, of the four female lords:

- Celica's personality is from another time, IMO.  The naive maiden in distress isn't looked upon too fondly these days, especially if she's a main character.  About the only decision I agree with is going by "Celica" instead of her birth name. . .because who thought that would be a good name for a kid?!  Her lategame decisions are understandable, though (look at her upbringing).

Judah hardly bothers to hide being a cackling supervillain. If anything, the ultimate problem here is that they failed to both give enough depth to the Dumah Faithful AND provide more background to Judah's goals ("Like, is he honestly loyal to Dumah or is he just riding his coattails?"). That, and Alm being a character who does more or less nothing wrong.

On 11/23/2018 at 2:51 PM, eclipse said:

- I could go on all day about why I don't like Micaiah, and I still wouldn't like her even if Ike didn't exist.  While I can logically understand why she was given a cadre of insane powers, it does no favors for her character. Ike had to fight his way to the top on his own abilities, yet Micaiah needs her heron blood to keep up?  She becomes better in Part 3, where she has to rely on herself, but even then, it's too late to redeem her.  She would've made a cool foil to Ike if she relied solely on her wits to shine, with the rest of the Dawn Brigade being her muscle (as opposed to Ike's brawn and Soren's brains).

Except he got appointed Greil's heir for just being his son by blood and still gets breaks from the plot (see how he mouths off to Sanaki and gets no punishment for it, praised for it even).

[henrymidfields]

This is something that is starting to bug me too. You don't necessarily have to be a feminist to want female main characters who saves the day. I for one played Pokemon Crystal, Black 1+2, and Sun with Kris, Hilda, Rosa, and Selene, and am playing Persona 3 Portable with Minako - because I don't always want to play as the male protagonist who saves the day. Give us something refreshing - have the female axelord take the helm and save the world. Bonus points if she also bailed out the male lords in the process. Look at Boudicca, look at Joan of Arc. Look at Himiko, look at Catherine the Great. Look at Maria Teresa, look at Queen Lizzie (the first) or Vicky. Look at some of the female rulers who made history, and write something based off that. 

Edited November 25, 2018 by henrymidfields

[DefyingFates]

2 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

This is something that is starting to bug me too. You don't necessarily have to be a feminist to want female main characters who saves the day. I for one played Pokemon Black 1+2 with Hilda and Rosa, and am playing Persona 3 Portable with Minako. The other problem? Give us something refreshing - have the female axelord take the helm and save the world. Bonus points if she also bailed out the male lords in the process. Look at Boudicca, look at Joan of Arc. Look at Himiko, look at Catherine the Great. Look at Maria Teresa, look at Queen Lizzie (the first) or Vicky. Look at some of the female rulers who made history, and write something based off that. 

Good taste in icons and characters detected :P

On topic, I agree and thanks for commenting (and for saying I don't have to be a feminist to want this xD)

[henrymidfields]

13 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Good taste in icons and characters detected :P

On topic, I agree and thanks for commenting (and for saying I don't have to be a feminist to want this xD)

No worries. I'm just a bit sick with Nintendo (even FE and Pokemon at the moment) for not taking the stories seriously, and especially not trying something different with the stories including the above. Even Tokyo Mirage Sessions's story is more preferable than the debacle that is of Fates, I think - at least the real stars in the real world isn't necessarily Itsuki. Part of the reason why I decided not to touch Super Mario with an 8-foot pole.

The other thing is that only Roy seems to have any semblance of a realistic general who took a page out from Sun Tzu, or actual military strategy in general. He may be a Mary Sue, but one that is at least can be found in real life - mainly that he relied on his intelligence than his brawns and luck on their own. Is there any reason why the next male lord has to be some muscle-bound Superman who can "do no wrong"? Why not another Roy? Or even a female version?

Edited November 25, 2018 by henrymidfields

[eclipse]

15 hours ago, Eryon said:

Except he got appointed Greil's heir for just being his son by blood and still gets breaks from the plot (see how he mouths off to Sanaki and gets no punishment for it, praised for it even).

Versus someone who can heal by touch, see the future, talk to a goddess, and is secretly the heir to an empire?  Of the two, Ike's much more believable.

[Eryon]

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

Versus someone who can heal by touch

That's addressed by her heritage. She's hardly the first Lord with a lineage granting magic (see Judgral). And it still matters less than you think it does.

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

see the future

Few of her battles past the early point were settled by her future sight. It's more an afterthought if anything.

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

talk to a goddess,

That goddess is more like the portrayal of gods in pagan European stories rather than Yahweh (that is, more of an empowered human than an inscrutable and untouchable force). And even then, Micaiah benefits less than you think since having to share a body with Yune means she has to share screentime with not just Ike but Yune who's the one who takes initiative at enough points in Part 4.

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

and is secretly the heir to an empire?

Look I'll be the first to admit the plotpoint of Micaiah being Sanaki's lost elder sister is poorly done (namely for how it suggests that Miacaiah is younger than what she's implied to be before the reveal since she doesn't remember her life in Begnion). That said, it doesn't amount to much anyway since she never takes Begnion's throne.

Now let's compare her to Ike. Ike:

-Gets to lead a credited mercenary company just for being the boss' son over more qualified individuals. With the one who points out how that's a problem being the drunkard who bashes Laguz.

-Insults his world's pope and gets away with it. Praised for it actually.

-Has both a super special sword that only he can use (if only in gameplaying) and a special swordfighting style shared only by his father and one of the lead villains.

-Turns out to be a victim of amnesia thanks to Sephiran reminding him. Yeah that's right, he had memories of his past erased.

-Has the distinction of being such a good Beorc that the Laguz leaders' respect him, Lethe is nicer to him than to other Beorc, and does much to fix relations between the races just by not being a cartoon villian to the Subhumans.

-Is the one who's both singled out by the Goddess of Chaos to serve as her champion against Ashera but HAS to finish off the Goddess of Order for the game to be won.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Eryon said:

That's addressed by her heritage. She's hardly the first Lord with a lineage granting magic (see Judgral). And it still matters less than you think it does.

Few of her battles past the early point were settled by her future sight. It's more an afterthought if anything.

That goddess is more like the portrayal of gods in pagan European stories rather than Yahweh (that is, more of an empowered human than an inscrutable and untouchable force). And even then, Micaiah benefits less than you think since having to share a body with Yune means she has to share screentime with not just Ike but Yune who's the one who takes initiative at enough points in Part 4.

Look I'll be the first to admit the plotpoint of Micaiah being Sanaki's lost elder sister is poorly done (namely for how it suggests that Miacaiah is younger than what she's implied to be before the reveal since she doesn't remember her life in Begnion). That said, it doesn't amount to much anyway since she never takes Begnion's throne.

Now let's compare her to Ike. Ike:

-Gets to lead a credited mercenary company just for being the boss' son over more qualified individuals. With the one who points out how that's a problem being the drunkard who bashes Laguz.

-Insults his world's pope and gets away with it. Praised for it actually.

-Has both a super special sword that only he can use (if only in gameplaying) and a special swordfighting style shared only by his father and one of the lead villains.

-Turns out to be a victim of amnesia thanks to Sephiran reminding him. Yeah that's right, he had memories of his past erased.

-Has the distinction of being such a good Beorc that the Laguz leaders' respect him, Lethe is nicer to him than to other Beorc, and does much to fix relations between the races just by not being a cartoon villian to the Subhumans.

-Is the one who's both singled out by the Goddess of Chaos to serve as her champion against Ashera but HAS to finish off the Goddess of Order for the game to be won.

Ike is defined by his abilities, and the world treats him as special because plot.  Micaiah is special because of her lineage, and is apparently a good tactician on top of it. . .which I intentionally left out, because being smart isn't something that's defined by her bloodline.

One of these is innate, and one of these is not.  Unless you can make that distinction, you'll never truly understand my point.

[Eryon]

In which case Micaiah would be no different from Marth, Gaiden's Lords, Judgral Lords, Awakening's Lords, and Corrin (okay maybe not a good example). She's both hardly the first to have magic from her blood and also doesn't get any favors from it when fighting Ike (she's LOSING until Ashera awakens).

[Rose482]

6 minutes ago, Eryon said:

In which case Micaiah would be no different from Marth, Gaiden's Lords, Judgral Lords, Awakening's Lords, and Corrin (okay maybe not a good example). She's both hardly the first to have magic from her blood and also doesn't get any favors from it when fighting Ike (she's LOSING until Ashera awakens).

Micaiah defenders <3 I love you already.

 

And yeah whenever I see anyone bring up that Micaiah is too gifted, It makes me somewhat confused becasue really I can't think of any lord in this series that doesn't have a gift of their own? So I don't know why Micaiah gets the most crab for it, but again at this point I pretty much made up my mind that about 85% of the hate she gets is either very unfair or just double standers in some cases. 

[Eryon]

I mean Micaiah's not even impressive in action. Both gameplaywise and storywise she pales to Ike. What with she's so behind Ike as a commander that she has to do war crimes just to keep from quickly losing instead of slowly losing.

[eclipse]

29 minutes ago, Rose482 said:

Micaiah defenders <3 I love you already.

 

And yeah whenever I see anyone bring up that Micaiah is too gifted, It makes me somewhat confused becasue really I can't think of any lord in this series that doesn't have a gift of their own? So I don't know why Micaiah gets the most crab for it, but again at this point I pretty much made up my mind that about 85% of the hate she gets is either very unfair or just double standers in some cases. 

I think it's a matter of whether or not you're willing to take a good, long, hard look at context.  Just how many other people in Tellius can pull off what she can, innately?  Versus how many different people can wield a holy weapon in Jugdral?  Or how many people can use Aum?

[NekoKnight]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

I think it's a matter of whether or not you're willing to take a good, long, hard look at context. 

If one were to look at Micaiah in context, they'd see that her abilities and lineage are barely consequential to her accomplishments. The two big things she does is liberate Daein and become its queen, both came about from her tenacity and dedication to her cause rather than a birthright or supernatural powers that made the impossible possible.

You might roll your eyes at her list of special qualities but at the end of the day, they only add flavor to her story, rather than decide its course.

2 hours ago, Rose482 said:

And yeah whenever I see anyone bring up that Micaiah is too gifted, It makes me somewhat confused becasue really I can't think of any lord in this series that doesn't have a gift of their own?

 

Alm and Corrin are literal chosen ones with legendary swords only they can use. Micaiah actually suffers for her gifts (physically in the case of Sacrifice, but also emotionally for being a branded). She didn't have good fortune delivered to her on a silver platter.

[eclipse]

8 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

If one were to look at Micaiah in context, they'd see that her abilities and lineage are barely consequential to her accomplishments. The two big things she does is liberate Daein and become its queen, both came about from her tenacity and dedication to her cause rather than a birthright or supernatural powers that made the impossible possible.

You might roll your eyes at her list of special qualities but at the end of the day, they only add flavor to her story, rather than decide its course.

It sets the tone for who she is, and it starts from the paralogue.  Hell, the enemies talk about it.  I'm gonna start grabbing script, because I know I'm not misremebering this.

Spoiler

Begnion Soldier 1:
“S-sorry, sir. We suspect they were from the Dawn Brigade, a band of thieves that targets goods levied from the town. People say they give what they’ve stolen back to the villagers and strut around acting like heroes.”

Begnion Soldier 1:
“They’re said to have a witch among them, a girl called the Silver-Haired Maiden. They say she can heal wounds instantly by laying her hands on any injury. Townspeople treat her like a savior.”

They're not talking about how good of a tactician Micaiah is.  They're talking about her powers - things that no one else can do.

Spoiler

Begnion Soldier 2:
“What’s happening?! What does she think she’s doing?! Hey, you, step away from that child!”

(Image of Micaiah healing Nico with Sacrifice)

Grandpa:
“It…it’s a miracle. We’ve seen a miracle today!”

Man:
“That was Sacrifice…”

Lady:
“That girl! She must be the Silver- Haired Maiden. Only she possesses Sacrifice!”

Again, they're focusing on those abilities that make her special.

Spoiler

Micaiah:
“Sothe, do you know the layout of the manor?”

Sothe:
“I was here years ago. As I remember, there’s a large armory tucked deep inside the building. And if I understand correctly, Begnion soldiers guard valuables they’ve stolen–from rare objects to necessary supplies–in that armory.”

Micaiah:
“Then the medicine will be there, too.”

This is an example of Micaiah using her head, instead of whatever special gifts she has.  Which would've been a lot less grating, since intelligence isn't something tied to being a Branded.

Spoiler

Daniel:
“People make a country. One person–even a noble king–does not a country make. And a strong country only exists when its people are strong. As Begnion crushes the citizenry, it slowly destroys Daein.”

And this is why popular opinion is important.  Which the Dawn Brigade has in spades, because of Micaiah's gifts.

Chapters 1-4 and 1-5 happen due to Micaiah's powers, again.  Which in turn kicks off the rest of the Dawn Brigade chapters.  Micaiah is where she is because of her innate gifts.  Ike has to rely on others (Greil, Sanaki, etc.) and whatever's in his head - both of which could've happened to anyone else, had they been in his position at the time.

[NekoKnight]

29 minutes ago, eclipse said:

It sets the tone for who she is, and it starts from the paralogue.  Hell, the enemies talk about it.  I'm gonna start grabbing script, because I know I'm not misremebering this.

  Hide contents

Begnion Soldier 1:
“S-sorry, sir. We suspect they were from the Dawn Brigade, a band of thieves that targets goods levied from the town. People say they give what they’ve stolen back to the villagers and strut around acting like heroes.”

Begnion Soldier 1:
“They’re said to have a witch among them, a girl called the Silver-Haired Maiden. They say she can heal wounds instantly by laying her hands on any injury. Townspeople treat her like a savior.”

They're not talking about how good of a tactician Micaiah is.  They're talking about her powers - things that no one else can do.

  Hide contents

Begnion Soldier 2:
“What’s happening?! What does she think she’s doing?! Hey, you, step away from that child!”

(Image of Micaiah healing Nico with Sacrifice)

Grandpa:
“It…it’s a miracle. We’ve seen a miracle today!”

Man:
“That was Sacrifice…”

Lady:
“That girl! She must be the Silver- Haired Maiden. Only she possesses Sacrifice!”

Again, they're focusing on those abilities that make her special.

  Hide contents

Micaiah:
“Sothe, do you know the layout of the manor?”

Sothe:
“I was here years ago. As I remember, there’s a large armory tucked deep inside the building. And if I understand correctly, Begnion soldiers guard valuables they’ve stolen–from rare objects to necessary supplies–in that armory.”

Micaiah:
“Then the medicine will be there, too.”

This is an example of Micaiah using her head, instead of whatever special gifts she has.  Which would've been a lot less grating, since intelligence isn't something tied to being a Branded.

  Hide contents

Daniel:
“People make a country. One person–even a noble king–does not a country make. And a strong country only exists when its people are strong. As Begnion crushes the citizenry, it slowly destroys Daein.”

And this is why popular opinion is important.  Which the Dawn Brigade has in spades, because of Micaiah's gifts.

Chapters 1-4 and 1-5 happen due to Micaiah's powers, again.  Which in turn kicks off the rest of the Dawn Brigade chapters.  Micaiah is where she is because of her innate gifts.  Ike has to rely on others (Greil, Sanaki, etc.) and whatever's in his head - both of which could've happened to anyone else, had they been in his position at the time.

It's true, her abilities are a boost to her inspirational power, but the most important thing is that she's going around helping people. The same thing could have been accomplished if she was using a healing staff. That she has a special kind of healing makes her more identifiable.

Micaiah follows after Joan of Arc, a real life person who didn't have magical powers (though she claimed to have divine guidance). It was her ability to inspire people, to give them hope, that made her the mythic figure she is. Micaiah's powers aren't the primary factor either.

[eclipse]

7 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

It's true, her abilities are a boost to her inspirational power, but the most important thing is that she's going around helping people. The same thing could have been accomplished if she was using a healing staff. That she has a special kind of healing makes her more identifiable.

Micaiah follows after Joan of Arc, a real life person who didn't have magical powers (though she claimed to have divine guidance). It was her ability to inspire people, to give them hope, that made her the mythic figure she is. Micaiah's powers aren't the primary factor either.

Not even close.  It's her healing power that makes her identifiable.  Closest person with a healing staff would be Laura, and no one calls her out for being special (or the unnamed abbot).

The fact that Micaiah's so distinctive could've gone either way.  Perhaps one of the towns could've quietly betrayed her for better treatment from Begnion, yet that doesn't happen.  That's more plot-driven than Micaiah-driven, but it's also a possibility that could've been explored.  Instead, she gets a whole bunch of mysterious forces that make things go just right, then shows up just at the right time to break the seal on the medallion, then disappears because it's Yune's time to shine (which is another thing entirely, since I would've loved to see how she works with her former enemies).  These are issues with how she's written, and the fact that she's so front-loaded with special isn't a point in her favor.  Why not highlight her wits, which is what helped to keep her alive all this time?  It's clear that she has them, yet it's through her powers that she gets to where she is.

Meanwhile, Ike gets to where he is through people giving him a chance.  The two aren't comparable in terms of writing screw-ups, and Micaiah gets the short end of the stick.

[Icelerate]

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

I think it's a matter of whether or not you're willing to take a good, long, hard look at context.  Just how many other people in Tellius can pull off what she can, innately?  Versus how many different people can wield a holy weapon in Jugdral?  Or how many people can use Aum?

There aren't a whole lot of people who can wield the falchion either. Everyone has to rely on Marth because he's the only one "worthy" of wielding it.

Spoiler

Elice:
“Malledus. I am not suggesting. I am commanding. If something befalls Father, Marth will become the last person in the entire world worthy of wielding the Falchion. I want you to guide him, Malledus- even when the rest of us no longer can.”

At least Micaiah's powers come from her association with Yune and has a lot of lore backing them up. 

Quote

The two aren't comparable in terms of writing screw-ups, and Micaiah gets the short end of the stick.

You have yet to even post a single writing screw up. My two main criticism of her character is her lack of a relationship with the DB and her being possessed by Yune which you did mention but in no way does this make her a badly written/underdeveloped character. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Icelerate

[NekoKnight]

6 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Not even close.  It's her healing power that makes her identifiable.  Closest person with a healing staff would be Laura, and no one calls her out for being special (or the unnamed abbot).

Micaiah also has distinctive silver hair and is the purported leader of the group, which Laura is not. In the Joan of Arc example, her unique identifier was being a woman and allegedly spoken to by an angel. But it was her deeds that carried her reputation. It's seriously the same story, no powers required.

13 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The fact that Micaiah's so distinctive could've gone either way.  Perhaps one of the towns could've quietly betrayed her for better treatment from Begnion, yet that doesn't happen.  That's more plot-driven than Micaiah-driven, but it's also a possibility that could've been explored. 

I'm not sure why this plot element would be required. Is it unreasonable that she wasn't betrayed?

15 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Instead, she gets a whole bunch of mysterious forces that make things go just right,

I think you're misattributing her having powers with things working out for her. She is a protagonist so things are going to work out (unless it's Game of Thrones but I digress). Unless you can think of a specific a instance where the way forward would be impossible without her powers, then it's circumstantial.

 

18 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Meanwhile, Ike gets to where he is through people giving him a chance. 

I actually think Ike has a solid character and story. But both characters work hard to get where they do. If you want to invalidate Micaiah's accomplishments based on her powers, then I'll say that Ike's powers are being trained by the best warrior on the continent, being given a mercenary company because he's the son of the previous leader, getting a super powerful magic sword and having the good fortune to meet Kurthnaga and Sanaki, the two people in their respective factions who wouldn't murder him for his transgressions. (I don't agree with those points, but there you go.

[eclipse]

3 hours ago, Icelerate said:

You have yet to even post a single writing screw up. My two main criticism of her character is her lack of a relationship with the DB and her being possessed by Yune which you did mention but in no way does this make her a badly written/underdeveloped character. 

Someone who's defined by how special they are in relation to everyone else can work, but it requires some seriously good writing.  Micaiah is not well-written enough to get away with it - the reason why she gets to where she is relies on her powers.

3 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Micaiah also has distinctive silver hair and is the purported leader of the group, which Laura is not. In the Joan of Arc example, her unique identifier was being a woman and allegedly spoken to by an angel. But it was her deeds that carried her reputation. It's seriously the same story, no powers required.

I'm not sure why this plot element would be required. Is it unreasonable that she wasn't betrayed?

I think you're misattributing her having powers with things working out for her. She is a protagonist so things are going to work out (unless it's Game of Thrones but I digress). Unless you can think of a specific a instance where the way forward would be impossible without her powers, then it's circumstantial.

 

I actually think Ike has a solid character and story. But both characters work hard to get where they do. If you want to invalidate Micaiah's accomplishments based on her powers, then I'll say that Ike's powers are being trained by the best warrior on the continent, being given a mercenary company because he's the son of the previous leader, getting a super powerful magic sword and having the good fortune to meet Kurthnaga and Sanaki, the two people in their respective factions who wouldn't murder him for his transgressions. (I don't agree with those points, but there you go.

Not even close.  No one can prove whether or not Joan was telling the truth regarding the angel.  Everyone could see Micaiah's powers for what they were, which in turn defined her as a character.

Yes, it is.  Being universally known is realistic, but so is making enemies (and not just Begnion).  If this were a true-to-life thing, then there would also be villages who'd turn on her group in exchange for protection/favors/other nonsense that we humans do.  I find it really hard to believe that everyone in Daein would rely on a single rebel group.

Here's a clip from the end of Chapter 1-3:

Spoiler

Jorge:
“According to rumor, he’s in the east, near the Desert of Death, trying to raise an army to lay claim to the throne. Shall we go there?”

Had this been any other group, they'd discuss the merits of going into a desert to sniff out a rumor.  While it would help their cause, it means that they'd be away from the villages they're trying to protect.  They'd also need to gear up for such a journey, which means stealing the necessary resources (or maybe rely on some charity).  Perhaps the rest of the Dawn Brigade could've chimed in on it. . but instead. . .

Spoiler

Sothe:
“Micaiah, what do you think?”

Micaiah:
“…In the desert…an important encounter awaits us. It shall be one that changes the shape of our future.”

Nope, Micaiah KNOWS the answer.  And they go with it.  That's bad writing.

I think you're missing the entire point of my argument.  Micaiah's powers are innate, something she's born with, and something no one else on Tellius could do.  Ike relies on circumstance and others - another boy who happened to be the son of a talented mercenary leader could've been the star of the story.  But how many other people in Tellius could hope to heal people with a touch?  Had Micaiah not had those, and instead relied on straight charisma and wit (both of which she has), I think it would've been a lot better.

[DefyingFates]

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

Micaiah's powers are innate, something she's born with, and something no one else on Tellius could do.  Ike relies on circumstance and others - another boy who happened to be the son of a talented mercenary leader could've been the star of the story.

I think this is an interesting discussion so won't butt in too much, but I just wanted to comment on this. Aren't you basically saying Micaiah and Ike did what they did because of what they were born with? I could just as easily argue that Ike "happened" to be born to the right man and anyone who happened to have a unique power could have done everything Micaiah did.

Ultimately I think it comes down to Ike having a family and company to build off of and Micaiah had an ability - it just so happened that one was magical and the other mundane.

[NekoKnight]

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

Not even close.  No one can prove whether or not Joan was telling the truth regarding the angel.  Everyone could see Micaiah's powers for what they were, which in turn defined her as a character.

I don't believe for a second that Micaiah's popularity was completely independent of her martial success. A savior isn't just someone who heals a few random people, it's someone who turns the tide on a dire situation. In one of the quotes you provided it says that she successfully raids Begnion forces, returning crucial resources to the people. That she can keep doing that is what snowballs into Micaiah becoming a peoples hero. Why would anyone care about Micaiah's abilities if healing was the only thing she accomplished?

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

Yes, it is.  Being universally known is realistic, but so is making enemies (and not just Begnion).  If this were a true-to-life thing, then there would also be villages who'd turn on her group in exchange for protection/favors/other nonsense that we humans do.  I find it really hard to believe that everyone in Daein would rely on a single rebel group.

Could have happened but it didn't. We can bring up a lot more questionable plot conveniences than this. How is it that Ike is never seriously injured or loses even a single friend despite fighting through two wars? How convenient is it that he stumbled on the one patch of Goldoa where he met the crown prince instead of any other dragon that would have just roasted him? The answer, that's not the story the writers wanted to tell. There is no direct logic that Micaiah being well known means she MUST be betrayed.

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

Had this been any other group, they'd discuss the merits of going into a desert to sniff out a rumor.  While it would help their cause, it means that they'd be away from the villages they're trying to protect.  They'd also need to gear up for such a journey, which means stealing the necessary resources (or maybe rely on some charity).  Perhaps the rest of the Dawn Brigade could've chimed in on it. . but instead. . .

So they had intel from a non-supernatural force concerning a person of interest and they act on it. The only thing Micaiah's power did was speed up the decision making. The story does make use of her powers, but an almost identical story could be told without it.

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

Had Micaiah not had those, and instead relied on straight charisma and wit (both of which she has), I think it would've been a lot better.

I think this comes down to preferring mundane plot devices vs ones flavored with the supernatural. Ike's story is pushed forward through natural circumstance, luck and strength of character. Micaiah's is pressed forward by magical gifts, luck and strength of character.

Edited November 26, 2018 by NekoKnight

[henrymidfields]

I think the other problem here is that IS seem to be really inept at giving male Lords good reasoning for them being Gary Stus, much less critical flaws that averts the GS trope. I  just don't like how the muscle-bound lords managed to get away with everything simply because they're the male lords made to be Superman who "can do no wrong". On the other hand, I like Roy because he is an example where the Gary Stu trope felt justified. Roy was shown as the general who actually did his homework on the proverbial arts from Sun Tzu/Clausewitz and the arts of diplomacy - and thus FE6 acknowledging the reality where strategy and diplomacy have been the game changers in warfare for most of history. And at least a Youtuber and a fellow Serenes dweller elaborated on how the lack of the above skills costed Hector and put Hector/Roy's country in jeopardy. Although I haven't played the Jugdral games, the other notable example to buck the above trend was Sigurd where his recklessness led to his army's loss, and something that his army did not recover from until the next generation.