Should we revisit a strategy-oriented Lord's archetype?

[henrymidfields]

While the below discussion somewhat focuses on Roy and FE6, it also discusses what I would like to see in a future FE title, and further developments from FE Awakening and particularly Fates's gameplay mechanism, hence I've posted this thred in the General FE forum.

So Roy from FE6 has been accused of being the worst gameplay-performing Lord due to his generally lower stats than other Lords through the game. (Okay he also has a very late promotion, but this is outside the scope of this discussion.) While I am in no position to deny this, I think there is more to it than merely stats. In Roy's case, it made sense, as he was one of the few examples of a historically realistic general who led by leadership, military strategy, and intelligence, which did nothing in terms of FE's gameplay.

And here's the problem: I think Roy was unsuited to the pure numbers game that was of FE6 than being weak per se. I believe he would have performed better if FE6 had gameplay mechanics similar to FE Fates where charisma and leadership at least had some effect through skills and supports. And I would like to see a revisit in a future FE game where Roy 2.0's leadership actually affects the gameplay, instead of another pure strength based Lord like, say, Ike or Ephraim:

• Grandmaster skills that Robin in Awakening had should be adopted as skills for the new Tactical!Lord's as well, and be amplified to compensate for Roy's low stats. Solidarity could boost adjacent allies' hit, dodge, crit, and crit dodge, and could be upgraded for a bigger area-of-effect.
• Tactical!Lord has two different kinds of supports - generic one-line support with the majority of his units under his command, and unit-specific supports that works similarly to the majority of supports from past FE. The generic supports are one-liners in barracks similar to how a pair of characters interact in the Awakening barracks. Here, the conversations Tactical!Lord have with other units gradually raises the support boosts in smaller amounts. 
• Leadership stars should be a thing too, which would be a gameplay translation of the Tactical!Lord's leadership. And unlike PoR or Tracia 776, Tactical!Lord's leadership stars can affect different classes in different ways - maybe Generals (the unit class) have a chance in blocking an enemy's attack before the pair-up!block gauge is filled, Swordmasters/Berserkers gets a further boost in critical activation, Cavaliers have a chance in activating Canto after attacking an enemy etc.
• In addition to all of the standard stats, the Tactical!Lord would have an Intelligence stat. And it can have various effects in the game:
  • In between chapters, Tactical!Lord can lead training in the barracks and distribute BEXP this way. S/he may get inspiration of the training regimen depending on his/her intelligence stat unique to the game. Say further boosts to a unit's lower/lowest stat growth rates or, fast-track the units' weapon training level ups. The higher the Tactical!Lord's intelligence, the bigger the effects.
  • Some chapters would start from a more advantageous position if the Tactical!Lord's intelligence stat is high enough - whether through less enemies deployed at the start, or the enemies suffering temporary stat penalties (gameplay interpretation of a surprise attack). Of course, the opposite can happen - if the Lord is dumb as a brick, then chapters can start disadvantageous for the player - additional reinforcements, surprise attacks (in the form of stat penalties slapped on the player), fog of war etc
  • Support-based skills and Leadership Star effects are amplified with higher intelligence.
  • In FOW maps, higher intelligence = better precentage chance in locating/pin-pointing a nearby enemy.

Anyway, I'd like to see the above come to light, and show a more realistic general leading his/her comrades into battle for a future FE title, whether it be in Three Houses or another future game. And if Roy has all of this for a possible FE6 Echoes, it would do his characteristics as a Lord more justice.

Edited November 25, 2018 by henrymidfields

[NekoKnight]

I think those are some interesting ideas, but I'd rather they just supplement the lord rather than compensate for the lord being a weaker unit in general. I'd definitely be on board with the next lord being a strategist or at least work closely with a strategist, like Robin or the war councils we saw in Tellius.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

2 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I think those are some interesting ideas, but I'd rather they just supplement the lord rather than compensate for the lord being a weaker unit in general. I'd definitely be on board with the next lord being a strategist or at least work closely with a strategist, like Robin or the war councils we saw in Tellius.

This

 

I REALLY hate GBA FE design choice where the lords are dleiberately weaker than the rest of the squad. I mean, Kaga's way of "The lord is completely fucking ball busting overpowered and does super special shit" isn't exactly the right way to do it, but the one thing i very much appreicate in DS era is Chrom is such a fantastic unit, and his team-work gimmick adds to that.

[Shadow Mir]

Personally, I'd rather just have the lord actually be a strategist or work with a strategist rather than deliberately making them underpowered and needing to compensate for that.

[henrymidfields]

Why do people hate Lords being weaker? It's not as if FE is supposed to be an easy game, and isn't FE supposed to be a teamwork game like warfare in real life? (It's called a strategy game for a reason.) If anything, I find it migrane-inducing with an overpowered Lord, and the lack of reality that comes with it.

Edited November 27, 2018 by henrymidfields

[NekoKnight]

47 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Why do people hate Lords being weaker? It's not as if FE is supposed to be an easy game, and isn't FE supposed to be a teamwork game like warfare in real life? (It's called a strategy game for a reason.) If anything, I find it migrane-inducing with an overpowered Lord, and the lack of reality that comes with it.

I'm not sure why the lord needs to be weaker than most other units for teamwork to be a thing, nor how that's even realistic. Why would a commander be weaker than every individual in the army? Did he skip leg day? The lord doesn't need to be a juggernaut but most people don't want to babysit a unit that a) is a required deployment and b) will result in a game over if they die.

[henrymidfields]

9 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm not sure why the lord needs to be weaker than most other units for teamwork to be a thing, nor how that's even realistic. Why would a commander be weaker than every individual in the army? Did he skip leg day? The lord doesn't need to be a juggernaut but most people don't want to babysit a unit that a) is a required deployment and b) will result in a game over if they die.

Fair enough, whatever. But I really would like to see a move away from the game-breakers and focus more on the strategy part. This means no more Ike/Taitania Emblems, no more Robin/Chrom/Frederick Emblems, no more Seth Emblems, you get the picture. Fates Conquest's gameplay was a step in the right direction where the units' stats alone were generally not enough, and one actually needed the numbers and the right kinds of skills, positionings etc. My proposal in the original post was, in part, to further expand on that.

Edited November 27, 2018 by henrymidfields

[Dandy Druid]

4 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm not sure why the lord needs to be weaker than most other units for teamwork to be a thing, nor how that's even realistic. Why would a commander be weaker than every individual in the army? Did he skip leg day? The lord doesn't need to be a juggernaut but most people don't want to babysit a unit that a) is a required deployment and b) will result in a game over if they die.

I don't think the person you're responding to is saying lords need to be weaker than other units, just not tremendously more powerful than other units. Take Ike for an example. Although I like Ike, he is ridiculously powerful in RD. To the point where you can just stick him in a bunch of enemy ranges and not worry about him. This eliminates some of the "Risk" factor in FE, as you know he's not going to be easily killed.

Well, the person that you quoted beat me to the reply so welp. You can just ignore me.

[X-Naut]

If we're going to have a strategy-oriented Lord I think they should consider designing them with non-standard qualities.

• A staffbot Lord can be as helpless in combat as they want without being considered negative utility. To bring out their full potential however, they would need to include tools such as Warp, Rescue, status staves, etc.
• A cavalry Lord in a game with FE10-styled mounted play would have an interesting dynamic. On the one hand they would have advanced mobility and potentially Canto, making them far easier to maneuver and get to the throne faster without rescue-dropping. On the other hand, FE10 gameplay introduces a number of downsides: more adverse terrain, ledges, and nerfed indoor movement. Mounts in FE10 also cannot be rescued, which means the Lord would have to rely on their own movement to get to the throne. If dismounting is in play it could certainly be more useful than it's ever been in prior games.

[henrymidfields]

On 11/28/2018 at 2:24 AM, X-Naut said:

If we're going to have a strategy-oriented Lord I think they should consider designing them with non-standard qualities.

• A staffbot Lord can be as helpless in combat as they want without being considered negative utility. To bring out their full potential however, they would need to include tools such as Warp, Rescue, status staves, etc.
• A cavalry Lord in a game with FE10-styled mounted play would have an interesting dynamic. On the one hand they would have advanced mobility and potentially Canto, making them far easier to maneuver and get to the throne faster without rescue-dropping. On the other hand, FE10 gameplay introduces a number of downsides: more adverse terrain, ledges, and nerfed indoor movement. Mounts in FE10 also cannot be rescued, which means the Lord would have to rely on their own movement to get to the throne. If dismounting is in play it could certainly be more useful than it's ever been in prior games.

In this case, should there be personal staves with their unique qualities? And what about his or her background? Could it be something similar to say, Joan of Arc, who religiously/spiritually  inspired the people to resist the invaders?

[X-Naut]

1 hour ago, henrymidfields said:

In this case, should there be personal staves with their unique qualities? And what about his or her background? Could it be something similar to say, Joan of Arc, who religiously/spiritually  inspired the people to resist the invaders?

I was actually thinking combine the two and have a Troubadour lord similar to Ethlyn, a young plucky noblewoman who wasn't trained for combat but insists on joining her subjects on their missions.

[Icelerate]

1 hour ago, henrymidfields said:

In this case, should there be personal staves with their unique qualities? And what about his or her background? Could it be something similar to say, Joan of Arc, who religiously/spiritually  inspired the people to resist the invaders?

We already have that archetype covered with Micaiah.