Jump to content

Do you want Fire Emblem to be mature and realistic?


Spatha
 Share

Recommended Posts

11 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

 


Racism is evil and wrong and the hatreds born therefrom are inherently unjustifiable--but there's a childish, cartoonish way to play with that theme. And a intelligent, adult way to explore it.

Having a cartoon villain like Hans or Iago butchering "filthy subhuman" kitsune, and a writer's pet simpleton like Corrin running around crying about how wrong that is + [insert grade school level anti-racist bumper here]?

That's the childish, cartoonish way to do it.

What Tellius does to treat the theme maturely is not reduce the racists to cartoon villains--it explores how insidiously pervasive it really is, and how widespread and influential it can be amongst otherwise good and reasonable people. (the port scene in Crimea comes to mind)

It explores how racism becomes particularly alluring to the masses in times of trouble when people need a scapegoat for their problems. And how persons in positions of power purposefully stir up racism + use it as a weapon to redirect anger and outrage and distract the masses from their own wrongdoing. (i.e. The Serenes Massacre)

It explores how no one is born racist--racism is a learned behavior--and how what is learned can be unlearned through worldliness and travel and actually coming into contact with + forming real relationships with people you've never actually interacted with, but have been raised to hate. (i.e. Jill's supports and character development)

It explores the difference between institutional racism as a matter of law and policy and pervasive societal racism, and illustrates how just because the former has been abolished that doesn't necessarily translate into progress on the latter,  something a shocking number of people in real life don't even seem to understand. (i.e The Kings of Gallia and Crimea are friendly and have endorsed the idea that as a matter of policy, there should be peace between their kingdoms and friendship and equality between their people. The average citizens of Gallia and Crimea scoff at this and are still hella racist. The Apostle of Begnion herself has officially outlawed Laguz slavery and decreed fair treatment of Laguz--but that doesn't even come close to the reality of actual societal attitudes or life in Begnion.)

It explores the way people twist religious doctrines to support whatever racist ideologies they want to believe are morally correct and infer an ordained "natural order of things" in psuedo-intellectual support of racist ideas, when no such doctrines or natural order actually exist. How history and philosophy and scripture gets distorted by the need to try and justify the unjustifiable, and underlying falsehoods eventually just go unquestioned + get so ingrained in the culture that they are accepted as truth. But really--its all just a society with a moral cancer at its heart trying to rationalize hate and prejudice.  (i.e. Stefan's conversation with Goddess Yune in RD Part 4 right before your party heads into The Tower)


Yune: Are you here to talk to me? Or to Micaiah?
Stefan: I’m here to speak with you, Yune.
Yune: You’re very strange. What are you?
Stefan: That’s a strange question, especially coming from you. Didn’t you create all of us?
Yune: I didn’t create anything. Not laguz nor beorc. But I know what they are, because I’ve watched them change and grow over time. You… You’re not something I’ve seen before.
Stefan: I’m the same as the girl you dwell inside.
Yune: Ohhh… I thought Micaiah was the only one. She could hear my voice and sing the galdr of release. But I learned that others existed. There’s that boy who’s always with Ike. Or the little girl who stays by the queen of Crimea.
Stefan: There are several in my village, as well. They are my comrades. We all live under the same fate…and carry the same curse in our blood.
Yune: When you say these words, what do they mean? Why are you cursed?
Stefan: It means that we carry the blood of both beorc and laguz. Beorc call us Branded, and laguz call us parentless.
Yune: Does that mean your parents are beorc and laguz?
Stefan: Not always. It means that laguz and beorc mixed blood somewhere along the line. Beorc and laguz rarely associate in that way. For them to conceive a child together is an even rarer event. What’s strange is that the child bears no laguz characteristics. It’s just a normal beorc infant. However, the laguz blood lies asleep, waiting, in the child’s veins.
Yune: Oh…
Stefan: One day, the laguz blood shows itself, marking the child’s body with a brand. How old is that girl, hmm? I don’t think she’s as young as she looks. The other curse is that we age differently from beorc. It depends on what laguz blood the child has, but it always slows how fast we age.
Yune: Micaiah says that’s true. She’s listening to every word you say. Please, continue.
Stefan: The laguz blood gives the Branded unnatural powers. Beorc fear and distrust us because they can’t understand those abilities. The laguz are even worse. They treat us like we’re phantoms, refusing to acknowledge us, as if we don’t even exist.
Yune: I see…
Stefan: It’s easy to hide among beorcs. You just cover the brand, avoid getting close to anyone, and never settle down. Pretending you’re normal. The laguz are different. They can sense what we are… They have an instinct for it. Not all laguz know for sure, but the sharp ones figure it out instantly. Others just feel uneasy around us. Some never figure it out, but they’re surrounded by ones who do. Either way, the laguz would never talk to us voluntarily. Why would you pay attention to someone who doesn’t even exist?
Yune: Why? That doesn’t make any sense. How did things get like that?
Stefan: I would like to know that as well. It’s said that a union between laguz and beorc is a crime against the goddess. That’s what we’ve always been told.
Yune: That’s silly. I’ve never heard anything of the sort.
Stefan: …Heh… Heheh… Hahahahaha…!
Yune: Why are you laughing?
Stefan: It’s all been a lie! For hundreds of years, we’ve faced persecution, abuse, and isolation. And for what? A lie! What’s not to laugh about, huh? Hahaha…
Yune: What’s happened? This is all wrong… How did history get so distorted? Was it at a particular place and time? I don’t understand. I’ve been asleep for too long…

^^^
For all the maligning of Radiant Dawn's final arc, that's one of my favorite scenes in any fire emblem title

________

There's alot to appreciate about the way Tellius handles the theme.

And its something we haven't really seen fleshed out like that in any other Fire Emblem; that dimension of the setting and the presence of that moral and cultural conflict that is all too recognizable from life in the real world is a large part of what IMO goes the extra mile towards making Tellius feel like such a richly developed setting.      

 

And just as I said before, respectful and greatly written but not exactly groundbreaking or mature when compared to other works.

And since you've chosen to respectfully ignore my points, let me repeat it again.

The Racism is shown in Black and White angle, with the Laguz as innocents or  well-intentionted but misguided and the Beorc as Evil or Flawed.

For the Laguz side, there no morally grey or black people in their ranks. The likes of Dheginsea or Sephran are shown to be well-intentioned extremists. Even the likes of Naesala is shown to forced in a Blood Pact.

On the Beorc Side, aside from everyone on Heroes side(except Shinon but he's dick to everyone except a few others anyway) everyone is shown to be evil or a bunch of fools.

No cartoonish villains? You forget the likes of Oliver, Valtome and Izuka and even likes of Oliver even manages to join the Heroes side anyway.

There are no Beorc outside the Heroes circle that's not an evil asshole like Ashnard or Lekhain. Even amongst the civilians, there are no "good" or "grey" amongst them.

Go read a history book, you'll find that very few people aren't as evil as the ones above.

With the above in mind. I find the Tellus' series praise of writing amongst the fans to be overhyped.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 98
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

To be fair, the Laguz aren't pure good. They are arguably crueler to Branded than Beorc are. Beorc treat them poorly as second hand citizens, but begrudgingly accept them in society at certain levels. Laguz don't even do that, as Stefan's support convos attest to. Though Stefan kind of betrays this notion when he reaches out to Laguz and flees at the sight of Beorc.

Anyway, as much as I'll say the Tellius games have all around the best writing in the series after the Jugdral games, I agree that their portrayal of racism leaves a bit to be desired. They tackle it competently enough that I'm not ever screaming at the game over how poorly they mishandled an important topic, and it doesn't ever detract from the rest of the game.

Edited by Slumber
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Shoblongoo said:

Naesala isn’t moral grey? Wut??? Tell me a character that’s moral grey then.

Easy. Micaiah.

Unlike Naesala, Micaiah doesn't need to be bound to a blood pact or listen to an obviously evil advisor to be ruthless against Ike and his allies or order morally questionable actions such as trying boil the Laguz army alive or trying to kill Sanaki.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Naesala isn’t moral grey? Wut??? Tell me a character that’s moral grey then.

Naesala is grey but unfortunately RD does a lot to undermine that. In POR he was a ruthless king that was willing to play very dirty to further the goals of his smal, poor island nation. Thats moral grey but by giving him a blood pact in RD we get the implication that Naesala is grey because those evil beorcs dealt him a bad hand which once again furthers the narratieve of Laguz being pure and Noble while the beorc are irredeemable villains.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Naesala is grey but unfortunately RD does a lot to undermine that. In POR he was a ruthless king that was willing to play very dirty to further the goals of his smal, poor island nation. Thats moral grey but by giving him a blood pact in RD we get the implication that Naesala is grey because those evil beorcs dealt him a bad hand which once again furthers the narratieve of Laguz being pure and Noble while the beorc are irredeemable villains.

Naesala is basically Trabant, if only the Lopto Sect was threatening the destruction and genicide of Thracia outright. Though Thracia 776 does imply some of his actions were because of this, it's still fully explained that he willfully allied himself with the bad guys for a better chance at fully unifying Thracia and keeping the country safe. 

If you want to see what Naesala would be without the Blood Pact, and what he'd look like if he was a much grayer character, look at Trabant. 

As it stands, Naesala comes across more like a sneaky good guy by the end of RD than an untrustworthy snake, like he was at the end of PoR. 

Edited by Slumber
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Naesala is basically Trabant, if only the Lopto Sect was threatening the destruction and genicide of Thracia outright. Though Thracia 776 does imply some of his actions were because of this, it's still fully explained that he willfully allied himself with the bad guys for a better chance at fully unifying Thracia and keeping the country safe. 

If you want to see what Naesala would be without the Blood Pact, and what he'd look like if he was a much grayer character, look at Trabant. 

As it stands, Naesala comes across more like a sneaky good guy by the end of RD than an untrustworthy snake, like he was at the end of PoR. 

I did pretty quickly make the connection when I played through FE4. Both are shady kings who are willing to do whatever it takes to protect their people, both of their nations are poor, side with the bad guys and employ flying units that they also make do unconditional jobs like mercenary work or piracy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What even is mature? Blood, sex and gore? I don't particularly want to see that in Fire Emblem unless there's a reason for it. Even deeper stories I'm less eager to see compared to just good stories. I do however think Fire Emblem should be considered a series aimed at an older audience. So, I don't think they should try to make the series "more mature", but I do think they should construct the series without having to nerf themselves creatively for the sake of a PG rating. They should put whatever content they want into it that fits the product they're trying to create.

On 11/29/2018 at 1:46 PM, Slumber said:

To be fair, the Laguz aren't pure good. They are arguably crueler to Branded than Beorc are. Beorc treat them poorly as second hand citizens, but begrudgingly accept them in society at certain levels. Laguz don't even do that, as Stefan's support convos attest to. Though Stefan kind of betrays this notion when he reaches out to Laguz and flees at the sight of Beorc.

The key word there is arguably. We only ever hear that Branded treat the laguz worse, yet I can't recall a single instance where it actually happens. What few examples of branded laguz interactions basically boil down to "You smell funny but I aint going to be racist about it." It's clear that within the world of Tellius laguz are no better or worse than the beorc, but within the confines of the story all of the laguz evil is basically paid lip service. We either A)Hear about it second hand, B)Get their actions recontexualized later or C)Have is basically be an irrelevant throw away moment (for that I'm specifically thinking the laguz Bandits early in Radiant Dawn, which might be the only example of legit remorseleslsy evil laguz in the games). Basically anything making the conflict morally grey is told rather than shown. It's actually something I don't have a massive problem with myself as I think the story of Radiant Dawn is already pretty dense already and it'd be hard to restructure it to fit a more evil laguz narrative (hmm, maybe making Izuka a willing laguz traitor could work. It'd make him like fifty times more heinous, which would be something). But that generally is the issue people have with it. The world building for a grey conflict is there, but the narrative of one is not.

Also now that you mention it, it is super weird Stefan has a bigger predispostion towards laguz rather than beorc despite the laguz reputation towards branded. Maybe Stefan is secretly super racist towards beorc.

Edited by Jotari
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've always maintained that the whole racism plot point in Tellius doesn't really work out. They try to say the two races are equal but that's entirely not the case. The Laguz are just objectively the better and more noble faction. 

The racism in Tellius is a one way street. The Beorc enslave Laguz, butcher Laguz, try to lynch Laguz and capture Laguz to perform inhuman experiments on them. The Laguz don't have any of this nor an even equivalent. At worst they are just rightfully hostile and suspicious towards a race that often decides to torment Laguz just because they can. Every negative feeling the Laguz have towards the Beorc is shown to be justified and when a Laguz acts aggressive this can usually be traced back to Beorc misdeeds towards them.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You don't need gratuitous showings of violence, and sex to show off the horrors of war. This intro of Vandal Hearts 2 shows that.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2IjpA5-ftx8

The intro is dark for turn-based strategy game released in 1999.

You see elite soldiers slaughtering an innocent village(even women and children) for the crime of finding a single fugitive.

Heck, you even see soldiers raping and murdering an innocent female civilian in cold blood.  A brillant intro to set a tone of the game.

Yet the game uses only 2d-sprites and the violence shown is "tame" when compared to over-top-violence shown in M-rated games.

This in my opinion what even the mature Fire Emblem games is missing.

Scenes like Hans executing prisoners in-front of Sakura in Conquest, Ike and Com discovering the horrifying remains of Laguz being experimented or even the Battle of Belhalla would be more effective emotional punch if we actually see those events.

 

 

Edited by Spatha
New additions
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Considering the general fanbase of FE nowadays, I don’t think a mature story is warranted for a fanbase of manchildren who can’t properly debate or discuss anything without mudflinging.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/29/2018 at 5:49 PM, Spatha said:

Easy. Micaiah.

To be fair, while Micaiah is morally gray in RD, she only goes that far because she's pushed by the situation with the blood pact. With no blood pact, Daein doesn't go to war, and Micaiah wouldn't fight Ike, Sanaki or the Laguz alliance.

On 11/30/2018 at 3:04 AM, Slumber said:

As it stands, Naesala comes across more like a sneaky good guy by the end of RD than an untrustworthy snake, like he was at the end of PoR. 

I think he was always a sneaky good guy in the sense he supports the surviving herons. He does seemingly betray Reyson but if we're to believe his words, the real double cross was against Oliver and Reyson was never in real danger. I don't think Naesala would have changed much without the blood pact.

11 hours ago, Spatha said:

You don't need gratuitous showings of violence, and sex to show off the horrors of war. This intro of Vandal Hearts 2 shows that.

Scenes like Hans executing prisoners in-front of Sakura in Conquest, Ike and Com discovering the horrifying remains of Laguz being experimented or even the Battle of Belhalla would be more effective emotional punch if we actually see those events.

I'm not sure I understand. You say they don't need to show gratuitous violence but then you say that they should show that stuff.

7 hours ago, Ashen Jedi said:

Considering the general fanbase of FE nowadays, I don’t think a mature story is warranted for a fanbase of manchildren who can’t properly debate or discuss anything without mudflinging.

I hope you can appreciate the irony of coming into a thread to fling mud at the fanbase (who are having a civil discussion here). What are you contributing to the discussion?

Edited by NekoKnight
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm not sure I understand. You say they don't need to show gratuitous violence but then you say that they should show that stuff.

I meant over-the-top violence like those from Mortal Kombat or those gory survival horror games.

There is a heavy difference between a guy who realistically stabbed with a sword and slowly bleeding to death vs a guy exploding into a shower of blood, limbs and gibs.

The violence in that video I've posted is "tame" when compared with the above.

Also, regarding Micaiah. Did the blood pact force her to use boiling oil to burn Sanaki and the rest of her army alive?

No, it only forced her to assist Begnion.

 

 

Edited by Spatha
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I think he was always a sneaky good guy in the sense he supports the surviving herons. He does seemingly betray Reyson but if we're to believe his words, the real double cross was against Oliver and Reyson was never in real danger. I don't think Naesala would have changed much without the blood pact.

Naesala is straight up an antagonist for 99% of PoR with really no context given to it. He allies with Daein to act as an agent of chaos to a certain degree, he orders his people to attack the party, and he generally acts very antagonistic to everyone. The one situation with Reyson is an exception where he's not acting completely as a villain, but even in this case, he's taking advantage of Reyson and putting him in a situation that we know Reyson has a looooot of hang-ups about. Together with the ravens in the game being less than friendly, it gives you the impression that Naesala is not a good guy.

Without context, and just knowing that Kilvas is a poor, impoverished nation that relies on piracy effectively as an industry gives the impression that Naesala is acting this way as a "By any means necessary" approach of supporting his people, which makes him look like a shade of gray.

With the reveal that all of this was because of the Blood Pact, it completely changes Naesala's character. You get the impression that he's still not a nice guy, but he was only ever this antagonistic and supporting the villains because he was forced to. It removes a lot of those darker shades to his character. Even if he ended up as a more heroic version of Trabant, where he allied against the heroes in FE9 of his own volition, and eventually fully came around in FE10, there are still more of those darker shades. The Blood Pact threatening his people is really the one thing that could have justified literally all of his bad actions in the first game with minimal impact on his actual character.

16 minutes ago, Spatha said:

I meant over-the-top violence like those from Mortal Kombat or those gory survival horror games.

There is a heavy difference between a guy who realistically stabbed with a sword and slowly bleeding to death vs a guy exploding into a shower of blood, limbs and gibs.

The violence in that video I've posted is "tame" when compared with the above.

I actually think gory survival horror games would be a good example of shocking scenes being used to heighten the impact of the games. When survival horror games use a physical threat as the source of horror, showing off how extreme the violence is does a lot to sell how dire the situation is. There's a reason the first time you ever see a zombie in all of Resident Evil, it's gnawing the head off one of your comrades. It's not just for the sake of gore.

I don't think Fire Emblem should ever go that far, but I think the intention of what Resident Evil 1 does with its first zombie reveal is a good example of showing off a serious story beat and setting a tone. Resident Evil is campy, but it's still sincerely trying to scare you a lot of times. If we ever do get an FE4 remake, I think showing off that scene like a scene out of a horror game would actually have a big impact.

Mortal Kombat, though, it just does the violence for fun. Really shouldn't be used as any sort of inspiration unless you're DOOM or something, where reveling in ultraviolence is part of the fun.

Edited by Slumber
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Slumber said:

Naesala is straight up an antagonist for 99% of PoR with really no context given to it. He allies with Daein to act as an agent of chaos to a certain degree, he orders his people to attack the party, and he generally acts very antagonistic to everyone. The one situation with Reyson is an exception where he's not acting completely as a villain, but even in this case, he's taking advantage of Reyson and putting him in a situation that we know Reyson has a looooot of hang-ups about. Together with the ravens in the game being less than friendly, it gives you the impression that Naesala is not a good guy.

Without context, and just knowing that Kilvas is a poor, impoverished nation that relies on piracy effectively as an industry gives the impression that Naesala is acting this way as a "By any means necessary" approach of supporting his people, which makes him look like a shade of gray.

With the reveal that all of this was because of the Blood Pact, it completely changes Naesala's character. You get the impression that he's still not a nice guy, but he was only ever this antagonistic and supporting the villains because he was forced to. It removes a lot of those darker shades to his character. Even if he ended up as a more heroic version of Trabant, where he allied against the heroes in FE9 of his own volition, and eventually fully came around in FE10, there are still more of those darker shades. The Blood Pact threatening his people is really the one thing that could have justified literally all of his bad actions in the first game with minimal impact on his actual character.

The way I see it, in PoR he's openly hostile to Beorc, only allying with them for convenience and betraying them when it suited him. While that is indeed a sinister disposition, most of the people he does bad things to are bad people themselves. He never aligns himself with the values of those evil factions, he just uses them. If there is any doubt that he's more aligned with good than evil, you can recruit him on the last map of PoR.

You say the blood pact justified his actions in the first game but I think it only serves to explain his actions in RD. He's still a self-serving jerkass. It's a lot different than Micaiah who is a saint when she's not being forced into war.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/27/2018 at 4:24 PM, Shoblongoo said:

I call it "more cartoony."

And thats really the best descriptor I can think of for how the tone of Awakening and Fates differs from the rest of the series.

Depends on what you mean by "cartoony". Do you mean the kind that simply gives cereal-munching action for kids when they wake up in the morning , or are you talking about the kinds that actually care about the plot and developing the characters? Those two things aren't mutually exclusive, of course, but there are several different ways to handle a cartoon, and Awakening or Fates may or may not fit into some of those categories.

On 11/27/2018 at 4:47 PM, Thane said:

I think Awakening's flaws get focused on more than a lot of earlier entries'. Yes, they're there, but like you say, they don't shy away from touching upon some really horrible stuff. There are gimmicky supports and characters, a lot of which definitely don't hit their marks, but that is not a new thing. Lowen, Serra, Sain, and Farina in Blazing Blade all have incredibly samey and non-serious supports. Awakening has Tharja, who people shouldn't be okay with because she's an asshole, but Blazing Blade also has Karel, who's a complete psychopath and (at that point in time) an unrepentant serial killer.

I definitely agree that Awakening is over-criticized. However, part of the reason why I think that is so is simply because I find Awakenings story to be merely average. The story works overall, and it does several things right, and a number of things wrong, but I can say that about so many video game plots that I see no reason to specifically pick on Awakening. Are there several elements that could have been improved? Of course. But I don't loose sleep or see a reason to hate on the game when the rest of it works just fine.

I've said it before, but Awakenings handling on it's characters was a double edged sword. It definitely relied on the "character that initially appears as a one or two dimensional trope turns out to be a three dimensional character" trick, which I honestly can't blame them for doing considering how successfully it has worked in other stories (especially when those kind of moments personally tend to be the things I most remember most about a story). On the one hand, it makes it rewarding to unlock supports of even average quality as you get to see the characters show their true colors a little bit more, and the contrast between a characters first impression and what they look like with all their backstory explored can be astounding. On the other hand, it also is pretty reliant on the player using the characters, and if they don't/can't get a use out of them, then they're stuck with an intentionally questionable first impression. I mean, the fact that people still think that Kellams "gimmick" is that people forget he exists is enough proof of how this trick can backfire. Especially when other games in the series have shown that this kind of setup isn't necessary to get people interested in learning about the characters.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the topic, I definitely do see a down-to-earth Fire Emblem story that focuses more on the human conflict and "war is hell" aspects of the series working. "Blood, swearing, or sex" don't automatically make a story mature. They can add or detract to one depending on how they are handled, but you can find mature stories in family-friendly media and even children's entertainment. The key element of a mature story is handling an inherently heavy topic with the respect and tact it deserves, not being afraid to show how harsh truth said topic, but also knowing when to pull punches when necessary so as not to lose the audience. Fire Emblem has already handled some serious topics before, so all it would really need to do is take a step further with how it looks at these subjects, but without overstepping its boundaries.

On a somewhat random yet relevant side note, I have mixed feelings on the implementation of blood in Fire Emblem. On the one hand, they can definitely insert it without upping the rating from T to M. Mount and Blade has some pretty graphic effects (such as enemy blood sticking to a character if they were close enough while striking, or how dynamic the blood on a weapon can be depending on where and how you attack a foe with it), and some games have pools of blood when enemies are defeated and/or in the environment, yet are still rated Teen. Fire Emblem could easily have characters get scratched up, bruised, and even suffer deep cuts and hold bloodied weapons without upping the rating. It could even have the side effect of having the cast be older, giving them more practical armor to wear instead of fanservicy costumes (unless they go the Mortal Kombat route and intentionally have a lot of characters outfits that show skin as an excuse to show off the damage effects), and would help reinforce the darker, down to earth tone the game could be aiming for. At the same time, blood will immediately turn away several potential consumers, and for better or worse, it could be jarring to see a character that you just read a hilarious support earlier is now clearly exhausted, clinging to their life, with battered armor and several cuts all across their body. I just remember that every time I played a Fire Emblem game and used my imagination to insert blood, it was simultaneously strangely fitting and horribly dissonant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Spatha said:

I meant over-the-top violence like those from Mortal Kombat or those gory survival horror games.

There is a heavy difference between a guy who realistically stabbed with a sword and slowly bleeding to death vs a guy exploding into a shower of blood, limbs and gibs.

The violence in that video I've posted is "tame" when compared with the above.

Also, regarding Micaiah. Did the blood pact force her to use boiling oil to burn Sanaki and the rest of her army alive?

No, it only forced her to assist Begnion.

 

Bolded: Does anyone really think the series should have such ludicrous violence? I only speak for myself but I only ask that the serious content (this is a series where people get impaled but there is no blood) is given the respect it deserves. That said, sometimes the imagination can be a more potent than  showing something that would have to be tame to pass a rating check. The tortured Laguz and Scarlet's fate are scarier to imagine than anything they could show us.

In regards to Micaiah, while her methods were extreme and frightening, the most shocking thing to the characters is that Micaiah was willing to massacre an army that had no intention of fighting her. It was an attempted mass murder by a leader who is thought to be kind and decent. It's not really morally gray for Micaiah to use this specific methodology (no one considers fire tomes to be unethical). Begnion had a gun to her head and winning the war efficiently is what she needed to do.

Her moral grayness comes from her choice to protect her nation at all costs, but that's entirely the fault of the blood pact forcing her hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

Bolded: Does anyone really think the series should have such ludicrous violence? I only speak for myself but I only ask that the serious content (this is a series where people get impaled but there is no blood) is given the respect it deserves. That said, sometimes the imagination can be a more potent than  showing something that would have to be tame to pass a rating check. The tortured Laguz and Scarlet's fate are scarier to imagine than anything they could show us.

In regards to Micaiah, while her methods were extreme and frightening, the most shocking thing to the characters is that Micaiah was willing to massacre an army that had no intention of fighting her. It was an attempted mass murder by a leader who is thought to be kind and decent. It's not really morally gray for Micaiah to use this specific methodology (no one considers fire tomes to be unethical). Begnion had a gun to her head and winning the war efficiently is what she needed to do.

Her moral grayness comes from her choice to protect her nation at all costs, but that's entirely the fault of the blood pact forcing her hand.

I don't know if you mistook me for wanting FE to have over-the-top violence so I'll repeat again.

IMO, FE doesn't need over-the-top shock scenes. All it needs is to show a bit of grit and not rely on discertion shots.

Take for instance with the Ike and co. discovering the remains of the tortured laguz.

All the CG portrait shows is some dusty cell filled with chains, a few scratches and a bit of blood on the floor. It doesn't exactly shock player into imagining since the image shown is very tame.

If they had shown just the many corpses of the tortured Laguz and detailed how wrecked the place is. It would be much more shocking.

Seriously, a bit of violence can add even more to a scene than just forcing the player to use their imagination.

The scene at the end of Birthright and what Alm had to do to Celica is close to what I'm saying.

The Scarlet example is much more effective though. Camillia's choice of words and the fact she of all people is so shocked at her fate is enough to shock the player as well.

Edited by Spatha
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since the topic's come up, I don't want violence and deaths to be more mature and realistic. At least anything depicted. I cannot at all stomach gore. Blood is one thing, but gore is another entirely. If a hypothetical FE game with gore didn't have an option to censor it, I wouldn't even consider purchasing it. As much as I love Death Note and the various adaptations it has had, I won't even watch the Netflix version for because of their decision to make it so graphic.

In my opinion, IS's current level of displaying violence is fine. The series would be ruined for me and literally unplayable if they upped it by much.

I also believe that there are alternatives that can create the same effect of shock and disgust from actually depicting the gore if one really desires to have something brutal happen to someone. For example, rather than showing a corpse, having characters find it, comment on it, and visibly react to it works well. In action, a change in camera angle with heavy implications of what's going on also works fine.

Edited by Arcphoenix
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I want FE to tackle political/social themes realistically and have mature writing that respects its characters and world. No, I don't want it to be rated M for Mature with blood, gore, and nudity and have a bunch of grim-faced burly men that look like they're from a history book instead of magical anime teenagers. There's two very different definitions here. FE has been mature and realistic before. I want more Jugdral, but with more detailed writing, and more Tellius, with less contrived plot devices. The other pre-Awakening games, to me, were also mature in their storytelling in that they took their stories seriously. Awakening suffered from having way too much simplistic comedy and bad pacing. Fates, on the other hand, overly relied on melodrama and teenage power fantasy tropes (since I'm not familiar with manga/anime terminology, and apparently shounen isn't the right word to use here).

Both Awakening and Fates, imo, had solid ideas and bases for the stories they wanted to tell, but it came undone in the execution. Early GoT is a great example of what FE could aspire to be imo, in terms of story. Fates tried to do something similar, I feel, but fanservice and tropes took priority over making a consistent plot.

Edited by Book Bro
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm less concerned about FE being "mature" or "realistic" and more concerned with serious topics being treated with the seriousness it deserves, and for IS to commit to a tone or a theme rather than do things half-assed for the sake of fanservice and player worship.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course. You think I wear this pink suit because I like silly things?

I do, and am displeased when people don't put forth the serious effort needed to make good silliness.

 

***

 

On 11/27/2018 at 6:22 PM, ChefGuevara said:

I'd prefer it, yeah, if only because, at the end of the day, there's an excessive amount of uh

dumb anime shit around already, especially in video games, so it'd be nice to have something more grounded, if only for the sake of variety. Also, you know, it keeps the weirdos away and that's always a plus 

This is the best reason, actually.

Honestly, though, Fire Emblem is kinda doomed from a narrative perspective.

The core gameplay has you slaughtering hundreds of faceless goons without so much as a second thought, all at the hands of like twelve people, so it's not really an appropriate place for any serious commentary or exploration of war. At that point, the serious angle people (myself included) want becomes a self-defeating impossibility.

Your characters are supposed to fleshed out, but there's no practical way for such large and theoretically dynamic casts to undergo character growth across/in response to the actual story, so again, it doesn't work.

The writing (coming from someone who's never played a Judgral game) has always been subpar, though has taken a gigantic nosedive into the underworld from what I've seen of Fates, which I think probably reflects the unfortunate truth that the series is inherently kinda dumb, even at its best.

I still think taking itself more seriously, not forgoing all comedy or silliness but having some willingness to ground itself in the idea that its events actually matter within the world and can actually impact the player in a not-entirely-negative-or-placating way, is the most ideal route.

Edited by AnonymousSpeed
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't care what direction the narrative of the series takes so long as the story and characters are likable and well written, and the future games don't put so much emphasis on dating, mary-sue/gary-stu avatar characters, and fan-service, all of which don't need as nearly as much emphasis as they've gotten recently. This is Fire Emblem, not Fairy Tail. 

On 12/2/2018 at 12:22 AM, Sunwoo said:

I'm less concerned about FE being "mature" or "realistic" and more concerned with serious topics being treated with the seriousness it deserves, and for IS to commit to a tone or a theme rather than do things half-assed for the sake of fanservice and player worship.

My thoughts exactly.

Edited by Roland
Reworded a sentence.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...