Conquest tiering discussion

[Shadow Mir]

18 hours ago, starburst said:

Here are the results from Reddit's latest Conquest Tier List up to January 7th.

S: Corrin, Jakob 1, Azura, Niles, Camilla
A: Felicia 1, Kaze, Leo
B: Gunter, Effie, Elise, Silas, Selena, Beruka
C: Arthur, Nyx, Odin
D: Laslow, Peri, Charlotte
E: Mozu, Benny

What the fuck is Selena doing at B? Awakening says hi!, I guess.
And the entire A Tier is like that one time at the Oscars and the wrong envelope.
Super Bowl MVP Sniper Mozu, we still love you.

Considering that about all she's good for is being pair up fodder, Charlotte in a higher tier than Benny is a huge WTF imo. I would take Benny being a great tank over whatever Charlotte brings to the table any day of the week.

[Shoblongoo]

1 hour ago, Centh said:

Isn't grissly wounds at promo 15? That's quite a while to wait. Are you heavily xp investing in him?

Its definitely a lategame perk--not something like the passive healing from better odds that you can count on getting early enough to be relevant for a large chunk of the time hes available.

(in case i didn't emphasize this enough on the last page: passive healing on a frontline tank that reliably comes every other turn and doesn't have to proc off of anything is really, really good)

I mentioned it at the end there only to illustrate the point that none of his class skills are completely useless or super situational--they all add something of value to his toolkit.  Not to imply that its something that should be weighed heavily or relied on picking up early. 

Just saying: once you get it, theres never going to be a scenario where free chip damage against anything that tries to attack you (or anything you fail to one round) isn't good. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by Shoblongoo

[starburst]

3 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Skill is the second least important stat next to luck, and only really matters if you're trying to use weapons with low rates. (i.e. beruka actually needs her high skill growth  because she uses axes)

Weapon hit is 90% on beastone with a +5 skill modifier
Beastone+ is 90% with a +8 skill modifier

^^^
Those are the ones that matter for his offense.

Fair enough, mate. As I mentioned earlier on this thread, if you have tried a build repeatedly and get the same results, I will not be the fool who tries to deny a fact. Keaton did not turned out as good when I used him, but I may have not given him enough opportunities (honestly, I think that I stopped using him when I found out that he could be immediately replaced by Velouria by abusing supports.)

At the same time, I value Skill, clearly more than you do, and that is fine. It might be because I have been using ten units maximum per map with no 'backpacks' or pre-promotes. This means, among other things, that my Player Phases are shorter and I thus feel more compelled to secure hits with the ten units available, specially when there are no 'big siblings' to save the day. It might also be because I love critical hits.

I usually use Odin, Ophelia, Silas, Sophie, Velouria, Nina, Mozu, Effie or Kaze. Odin and Silas might get Speed screwed and Kaze might die of a cold, but my biggest complain comes when Effie's shaky Skill surfaces. I can deal with other deficiencies, but when a unit has constant shaky hit rates against a variety of units, I restructure my party and see how I can replace this unit. And Effie always has the worst hit rate of the lot.

Edited January 9, 2019 by starburst

[Shadow Mir]

15 minutes ago, starburst said:

my biggest complain comes when Effie's shaky Skill surfaces. I can deal with other deficiencies, but when a unit has constant shaky hit rates against a variety of units, I restructure my party and see how I can replace this unit. And Effie always has the worst hit rate of the lot.

And yet for some reason, you advocate turning her into a Fighter > Berserker, aka the type of class that's most likely to have hit problems... I smell a rat.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Shoblongoo]

Anyone else wanna defend Benny, or an I gonna have to go to bat solo for the wall guy.

[starburst]

On 8/1/2019 at 6:23 AM, Dean said:

I think what you do with S tier kind of sets up the rest of the tier list. We could keep it fairly exclusive, e.g. Camilla and Azura are the two best units in the game; or we can keep the tiers roughly the same size (add in Corrin, Jakob and Niles like the current list); or I've seen arguments in various places to include more units such as Xander, Leo and even Kaze which seems kind of disgusting to me but who am I to judge?

I wanted to come back to this message because I too believe that defining Rank S units is crucial to the rest of the Tier List.

For me, if Rank S is for 'game-changing' units, then only Niles and Azura fit there. Those two are the only ones who offer something unique, and exclusive to them, that drastically changes the gameplay. Niles lets one recruit a variety of useful, unique units, like Rally Man, Pass Pegasi or Grisly Ninjas, whose skill set and weapon rank are impossible to recreate, greatly broadening the possibilities available to the party. While Azura replicates the actions of any ally on the map (it is actually and 'improved replication', since the unit now has +3 Skill, Speed, Luck) or doubles their movement, dramatically changing the plays.

Yes, one can finish the game without ever using the Popstar or the Bi-Thief, but this applies to any unit (bar forced deployments) and does not change the fact that what they offer is exclusive to them and changes the gameplay in ways that no other unit does.

And Rank A would only include Corrin, Camilla and Sigfried --yes, for Xander can always be replaced--, but this message focuses on Rank S.

[Shoblongoo]

43 minutes ago, starburst said:

For me, if Rank S is for 'game-changing' units, then only Niles and Azura fit there. 

...I mean even by that definition, Camilla is still S Tier (getting a prepromotoed unit that strong that early is game-changing. Shes the closest thing you get in Conquest to a true Jeigan)

You gonna hard pressed to justify any conquest Tier List where Camilla isn't S Tier. 
_________

Concerning Benny.

He has some very noticable flaws with his join time and weak player phase, but he does have a well-defined niche and he's competent enough at what he does that I think he deserves to be tiered above Charlotte, Laslow, and Peri.

C Tier Unit. 

Edited January 9, 2019 by Shoblongoo

[Shoblongoo]

[Delete Accidental Doublepost]

Edited January 9, 2019 by Shoblongoo

[joshcja]

I can agree with C Benny. If only because feirce mein is a really powerful personal.

His high def is problematic on lunatic so a reclass at 20/5 winds up being nessecary for any sort of EP use and he needs a brave lance to double but he's certainly useable.

[starburst]

2 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

I mean even by that definition, Camilla is still S Tier (getting a prepromotoed unit that strong that early is game-changing. Shes the closest thing you get in Conquest to a true Jeigan)

You gonna hard pressed to justify any conquest Tier List where Camilla isn't S Tier.

For me, an overpowered unit does not 'change the game', it may certainly make it easier or faster, but the same same role (even if at a lower performance) can be played by other units in your party.

You analyse a map and create a strategy to achieve certain goals in this turn. Then you decide that this unit will weaken this enemy, this other will kill it, this two others will hold the line up here, this other will exchange equipment or pair-ups with that one, this two will move these many tiles while another one activates a Dragon Vein, and so on. Assign any of these roles to the overpowered unit and at the turn's end, you will have done a certain amount of actions and, hopefully, completed the tasks that you planned to achieve. You knew what your possible actions were and made your moves in what you think was the best way to achieve your goals.

But if Azura comes in, you are suddenly granted one extra action that turn. As complex or as simple as it may be, it is still one action that you did not have and that you could not have had otherwise. Even if all of your units were super powerful ones and all of their assigned actions had a 100 % chance of success, their greatest possible outcome still depends on the number of actions that they can make during that turn. No unit can do more than their defined, set possibilities for that turn are, unless Azura comes in. She breaks the limit and expands the possibility range for all units. This does change the game.

[Errorik]

It's true she doesn't add anything new to your roster in regards to mechanics (early flight depending on your run?), but imo she will always deserve S because of the following: amazing class set, flight on join, sharable wyvern, best bases I've ever seen, low internal level, arguably best mother, very strong str and mag damage, top notch performance all game, them growths, and JOINS ON CHAPTER 10! I'm all for awarding her "best unit ever". Is she mandatory? No, but hot damn she is amazing at essentially no cost, which in itself is game changing imo. E.G. I've never been able to complete Percy's chapter without her (no grind). Maybe I'm bad, but she trivializes it.

[starburst]

5 minutes ago, Centh said:

I'm all for awarding her "best unit ever". Is she mandatory? No, but hot damn she is amazing at essentially no cost, which in itself is game changing imo. E.G. I've never been able to complete Percy's chapter without her (no grind). Maybe I'm bad, but she trivializes it.

For me, Camilla does things better, but she does not do something new. It is in this sense that she does not 'change the game.'
Anyway, it is not my intention to underrate Camilla. I do agree that Camilla is the best combat unit in Conquest (at least until Chapter 20 or so, when other units equalise or surpass her) and the mother of the master race. But since the expression 'game changing' was used for Rank S, I felt that Niles and Azura fit it while Camilla does not.

About Percy's chapter early in the game, I do it right after Chapter 10, getting around 10.000 G and not using Camilla.

If you use Odin, then equip him with Nosferatu and pair-up him with a royal so that they have Guard Stance and can activate Dragon Veins. Send them to the East, where they lure (but not kill) the Lancers and Cavaliers and then flip and make money. Then send Odin & co. Centre-North (Azura's singing eases the movement), lure Lancers and Mercenaries, flip and make money. And finally send Odin & co. North-East (across the mountains), lure the remaining Mercenaries, Cavaliers and Wyverns, and calculate the flip to make more money.
(If you do not use Odin, send Silas or Effie with a Javelin or Corrinette; the tricky part here is that you must not kill the enemies, but lure them, tank at least one Enemy Phase and then make money. That is why Odin with Nosferatu is great for this role.)

The remaining units should go West and make some money with the Lancers. Then move to the Western End and lure the Cavaliers and Wyverns, being careful of the positioning of your royal unit (most likely Elise), so that they can reach the Dragon Vein and make money. Then kill the remaining Wyverns and move North. To save some turns, you can send Beruka and a pair-up to lure the Cavaliers north of the fortress, just make sure to equip her with a Hand Axe (so that she has 1-2 range and does not kill them) and to heal, since you need to tank two Enemy Phases; then send in Elise and make money.

The rest is just cleaning up the map (or making a little more money if you are very lucky and the remaining enemies are close to the remaining Dragon Vein.)

[Shadow Mir]

22 hours ago, starburst said:

For me, an overpowered unit does not 'change the game', it may certainly make it easier or faster, but the same same role (even if at a lower performance) can be played by other units in your party.

You analyse a map and create a strategy to achieve certain goals in this turn. Then you decide that this unit will weaken this enemy, this other will kill it, this two others will hold the line up here, this other will exchange equipment or pair-ups with that one, this two will move these many tiles while another one activates a Dragon Vein, and so on. Assign any of these roles to the overpowered unit and at the turn's end, you will have done a certain amount of actions and, hopefully, completed the tasks that you planned to achieve. You knew what your possible actions were and made your moves in what you think was the best way to achieve your goals.

But if Azura comes in, you are suddenly granted one extra action that turn. As complex or as simple as it may be, it is still one action that you did not have and that you could not have had otherwise. Even if all of your units were super powerful ones and all of their assigned actions had a 100 % chance of success, their greatest possible outcome still depends on the number of actions that they can make during that turn. No unit can do more than their defined, set possibilities for that turn are, unless Azura comes in. She breaks the limit and expands the possibility range for all units. This does change the game.

I would say something, but @Centh took the words right out of my mouth. I don't see how she isn't S tier when no one else can replicate her performance for quite a while, other than maybe Jakob 1, who isn't guaranteed to exist.

[Zoran]

Since I posted this on Reddit, I figure I'd also share here.

This first video is a demonstration that Odin can gain a level even at LTC pace in his join chapter.

This one is a variation that goes slower to give Odin another level and generally build the army better.

And the most recent one I've done is a showcase of Odin on chapter 10.

 

[joshcja]

There are good videos! The vow Silias use is on-point and the mozu-effie callout in the ch10 video is my fetish.

The LTC Odin clear with can dump more exp into Odin for a 2 level gain but the rng and resource use becomes progressively higher as we dump more into him here. As an efficency showcase 4 turns for 1 level at a consistant clear is on point.

Now to binge this channel.

Edit: Nvm no more videos, curse you.

Edited January 12, 2019 by joshcja

[Errorik]

Dope

Edit: those Reddit comments make me sad. Early heart seal Jakob meme too strong.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Centh

[starburst]

Great videos, mate. I prioritise building supports in the early chapters so that the children are recruited right around Chapter 11 and my (ten-unit) army is complete. Thus it was great seeing your paying attention to the supports too.

I also liked how you too utilise Vow of Faith and in-battle weapon exchanges/ arrangements to secure kills in Attack Stance. It is super useful and not often discussed.

[joshcja]

On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 5:09 PM, Centh said:

Dope

Edit: those Reddit comments make me sad. Early heart seal Jakob meme too strong.

I ran this for my personal amusement a while ago.

Assuming draco!MU marrige with MC used (CH7 jakobdin flat requires this)

Silias at ch7 +6 stack.

Jacob leaving ch7 +4

With 2 seals at xl15 

Silias +11 (+2, Vow, Eroom, Riposte)

Jakob +11 (Eroom, +2, defender, trample)

Edited January 14, 2019 by joshcja

[Zoran]

On 1/12/2019 at 1:00 PM, joshcja said:

Edit: Nvm no more videos, curse you.

Being sick has left me with a little bit of time on my hands.

Here's an interesting way to play chapter 7, focusing on building Silas's lance rank and Elise's axe rank.

And here's a quick, low-effort demonstration that Odin dominates chapter 13.

 

[starburst]

Hey, joshcja, while you usually describe your attack builds, I would like to know if Jakob's defensive/ tanking abilities are as good as those of Silas. I mean, even if Jakob's attack stack were superior to Silas's, I do not usually have problems on Player Phase (there are more units with enough power to finish the target enemies.) What I do need Silas (and one or two other units) to accomplish is to be able to hold a position and sustain some Enemy Phases. Can Jakob also play this role during the entire game?

I always use Corrinette but I dislike Jakob and thus the prick usually ends the game at L5-6. I could probably simulate his statistics and compare them to those of Silas, but I prefer an opinion based on experience and not on theory. In particular, I use relatively strong units to lead the charges in Chapters 17 and 19, to hold the lines in sections of Ch 20 and 24 and at the top of Ch 21, to assault the roof of Ch 23, and to sustain various Enemy Phases in the southern room of Ch 26. Usually, these units are Dragon Stone Corrinette (even with a Defence bane, she always delivers) and (Hero) Silas or Sophie or Velouria, depending on their classes or weaknesses (note that Xander, Leo and Camilla are forever benched.)

This question is also for you guys, Centh and Zoran, who have experience with Jakob and Silas.

Edited January 14, 2019 by starburst
Grammar and clarity.

[Zoran]

Let's suppose Jakob changes from Butler to Paladin at level 5, then gets to level 8 in Chapter 7 so that he has both Elbow Room and Defender, and they're both active. If using Silas instead, let's say he gains two levels in chapter 7, also reaching level 8. On average, these are their effective stats with skills factored in:

Unit          HP   STR   MAG   SKL   SPD   LCK   DEF   RES

Jakob         26   19    7     15    12    15    12    11
Silas         23   15    3     10    9     8     11    6
Silas (VoF)   23   18    6     10    9     8     14    9

So Silas with VoF up basically trades a few points in everything else for 2 defense. This is not as bad as you might think for a few reasons. One, Silas still has just enough speed at base to reasonably reach doubling thresholds on enemies in chapters 8, 9, 10, and 11, and that's when more +SPD pair-up options start arriving. Two, he has overall better growths; Silas will erase the 1-point deficit in STR pretty soon and will expand his DEF lead. The superior Defense makes Silas better than Jakob for attack stance purposes; Jakob will tend to do better with dedicated guard stance support.

Lastly (and this doesn't apply to you so much), Jakob 1 has the hidden downside of not being able to benefit from Felicia. On a male Corrin run, you can position your units so that Silas gets incredibly tanky by himself, making him a much better abuser of attack stance.

Jakob doesn't require you to pay attention to Corrin's HP to perform at his best. That's a nice convenience, but there are turn 1 or turn 2 setups to drop Corrin below half health through at least chapter 14. Corrin's usually over-leveled enough from the prologue that she can still fight well at low health and doesn't need to pick up a lot of kills to remain useful throughout the early game. There's also a chapter that is devoted more or less exclusively to feeding Corrin enough EXP to promote.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Zoran

[Errorik]

I like keeping Jakob in butler since it's such a good class. He can easily kill mages in chapter 8, good chip damage with a debuff, healing when needed, gives +speed on pairup, and starts at 6 move. As Zoran showed, the stat difference isn't that big of a deal between Silas and Jakob, which means it's not a great heart seal investment due to a very high opportunity cost (could've been bowzu, wyvern!Elise, early change Corrin, xp spread). Wyvern!Elise is something I'd been sleeping on, but it's a lot of fun. Simply having another high move combat unit is great, even if she didn't blow up later. I don't have moments where I think "darn, wish I had troubadour!elise" or "darn, paladin!Jakob would be so handy". The latter is because Silas accomplishes the same goal while ending up being the most versatile physical unit with great stats the whole game. He has access to cav, ninja, wyvern, fighter, archer, and merc. Top tier skillsets and classes. Jakob can go wyvern off of Elise or corrin. Elise later in the game and Corrin for chapter 7+ boom boom. MK gives him flight, 1-2 range, lunge, +2 str, and trample. This is a way better stack early. He snags cav later off of Silas to get elbow room and shelter. This offsets

bad growths and enables him to become a lethal-ish support unit nearing endgame (ferry, chip damage, shelter abuse, movement pairup etc). Shout-out to trample/cav!Dwyer.

 

TL;DR: MK!Jakob is good because it frees a heart seal, has better skill stack, doesn't stop him from getting cav, and has 1-2 range with flight.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Centh

[Zoran]

Reddit dropped Odin down to D tier.

 

I tried.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Centh said:

I like keeping Jakob in butler since it's such a good class. He can easily kill mages in chapter 8, good chip damage with a debuff, healing when needed, gives +speed on pairup, and starts at 6 move. As Zoran showed, the stat difference isn't that big of a deal between Silas and Jakob, which means it's not a great heart seal investment due to a very high opportunity cost (could've been bowzu, wyvern!Elise, early change Corrin, xp spread). Wyvern!Elise is something I'd been sleeping on, but it's a lot of fun. Simply having another high move combat unit is great, even if she didn't blow up later. I don't have moments where I think "darn, wish I had troubadour!elise" or "darn, paladin!Jakob would be so handy". The latter is because Silas accomplishes the same goal while ending up being the most versatile physical unit with great stats the whole game. He has access to cav, ninja, wyvern, fighter, archer, and merc. Top tier skillsets and classes. Jakob can go wyvern off of Elise or corrin. Elise later in the game and Corrin for chapter 7+ boom boom. MK gives him flight, 1-2 range, lunge, +2 str, and trample. This is a way better stack early. He snags cav later off of Silas to get elbow room and shelter. This offsets bad growths and enables him to become a lethal-ish support unit nearing endgame (ferry, chip damage, shelter abuse, movement pairup etc). Shout-out to trample/cav!Dwyer.

 

TL;DR: MK!Jakob is good because it frees a heart seal, has better skill stack, doesn't stop him from getting cav, and has 1-2 range with flight.

One... Would archer Mozu really be worth it??? Because it's Mozu - she's a crapload of investment for a payoff that might not necessarily justify the hard work, and with Conquest being the subject matter here, I'm even less convinced she's worth it. Also, starburst is pretty much the only one I see here who puts in a good word for her. Two, is Silas really that reliable??? Because I kinda don't exactly have a glowing opinion of the guy for various reasons.

[joshcja]

Worth noting that Silias can always run both Draco and MN.

As for defenses... yeah I got ninjaed. Silias has to work to not 0 out damage on some maps and with Kaze coming after ch11 he can double RYOMA in ch12. Mid to lategame SolMN Silias can tank maps and has the stack to brave sword down tacomeat no-proc in Hero (This is new tech). He's completely busted.

I've come around to a WL>Pala>MK>WL progression on Jakob. WL is so much better early it's unreal and we can use sophies map's seal to do this without super shenanigans.

That is close to my exact ch7 strat for WElise. (I dump Effie)

Oh god, CH13 Odin. This will be a treat. Wonder if he gets to 20/2?

D rank. Ahahahahahahehehe

Mozu is a known strong unit in LCQ by people who don't Drank Odin.

Edited January 14, 2019 by joshcja