Conquest tiering discussion

[starburst]

During the last week, the Conquest children units have been reviewed on Reddit. And while their recruitment chapter and growths are variable and make it more difficult to rank them, it might still lead to interesting discussions.

These are the areas being reviewed (quoted in integrity from the thread, not my opinion):

Quote

Availability: How fast and easy you can get the kid unlocked. A high rank would mean earlier unlocks but also if they're available for key missions (e.g Dwyer can show up early enough in the Medicinal Pots mission to fill in for Elise, Percy can Wyvern Lord early enough to Beastkiller Kitsune, Siegbert can't). Also consider if one of the parents in the pairings are strong so they can carry the other while the relationship is building (Arthur/Effie is great, Odin / Mozu is not)

Usability: How good are the kid's bases /growths? Can they provide a niche or have usage outside of their base class (preferably with no Heart Seal investment) due to inheritance from their parents?

Paralogue: A high rank here would indicate that this child has good paralogue rewards or are easy chapters. A low rank indicates poor rewards and highly obnoxious ones (hello Ignatius)

Lastly, you may want to do a write-up on

Suggested Parent/Details: Suggested parent choice for the kid with consideration that both the pair-up bonus for the parents and the resulting kid are useful rather than one or the other. Should factor both speed to build relationship and ease of use (i.e a Mozu / Odin pairing is going to be very hard to get off the ground). Also recommended skill inheritance.

Until today, these are the children units that have already been discussed:

Quote

Round 1: Kana (M) and Kana (F)

Round 2: Shigure and Dwyer

Round 3: Midori and Sophie

Round 4: Percy and Nina

Round 5: Ophelia and Soleil

Round 6: Velouria and Ignatius is being reviewed today.
https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/anooqm/conquest_children_gameplay_discussion_round_6/

Edited February 6, 2019 by starburst

[Johnnie]

AI've never been good at optimizing children. I don't care to grind for skills to pass down and even when I think I have a good pairing the children often feel lackluster.

Of the ones listed, Percy and Ophelia are OP; Dwyer and Shigure make for useful healers/rallies/ferries; Kana sucks and I have little experience with the rest.

[starburst]

20 minutes ago, Johnnie said:

AI've never been good at optimizing children. I don't care to grind for skills to pass down and even when I think I have a good pairing the children often feel lackluster.

Out of the children that can be recruited early in the game, do you find some of them interesting and useful? If you do, you might want to try recruiting them early to complete your roster, instead of as replacements or late-game weapons. This way, skill-inheritance optimisation is secondary (for little can be done that early) and you will have more chapters to actually try and evaluate the units.

In my case, I always recruit some of Sophie, Ophelia, Nina, Kana and Percy before Chapter 12. (I play Kana's Chapter for the free Experience, and Percy's for the Gold, but I do not use them afterwards.)
By Endgame, the children in my party will have participated in about fifteen chapters. For me, availability is key. I like to try the unit for as many chapters as possible, even if they would be more powerful various chapters later.
This is why I often 'cheat' on Velouria's recruitment and play DLC maps to grind support between Keaton and his partner, so that Velouria is 'unlocked' immediately after Chapter 14.

The Support building mechanics add an extra challenge to the early chapters, for certain adults must be together during various phases, even though they would be more effective paired-up with others or playing a different role in the map. I like it.

[Johnnie]

If I'm trying to optimize XP for the mid-game I'll unlock Kana, Dwyer, Percy and Sophie before Chapter 10. It might be possible to unlock Ophelia's chapter by then as well, though I'd rather do hers later.

Of those kids, Percy and Ophelia are the only ones guaranteed a spot on the team. Sophie is hit or miss for me. Dwyer is only useful for the staves he brings with him, though he makes a decent replacement for early promoted Silas/Effie/Nyx if you're willing to use 2 seals on him immediately.

It's frowned upon everywhere, but flying Elbow Room is always fun and Percy is the best flyer in the game not named Xander. It does require burning a Heart Seal on Arthur though. You could go flying Shelter as well, but I'd rather add more damage.

[starburst]

3 hours ago, Johnnie said:

If I'm trying to optimize XP for the mid-game I'll unlock Kana, Dwyer, Percy and Sophie before Chapter 10. It might be possible to unlock Ophelia's chapter by then as well, though I'd rather do hers later.

Using ten units there is enough Experience for everyone to reach Level 18/20 (or 20/20) by Chapter 25 or 26; specially in Lunatic, where one faces more enemies.
Healer Elise class-changes at Level 15-16 by Chapter 11, and the other eight fighting units class-change at the end of Ch 13 and during Ch 14, all at Level 18; including the two or three recruited children.

 

3 hours ago, Johnnie said:

Of those kids, Percy and Ophelia are the only ones guaranteed a spot on the team. Sophie is hit or miss for me [...]

It's frowned upon everywhere, but flying Elbow Room is always fun and Percy is the best flyer in the game not named Xander [...]

I agree on Percy and Ophelia. (I simply do not use Percy often because I dislike how his being a small kid is handled.)

Sophie with Effie, Mozu or Corrin as her mother suits my needs consistently. She is used as a supportive front-liner, not the main tank, but bulky enough and powerful enough to hold a position for a turn and let the rest of the party reorganise the advance.
I guess that Beruka, mounted Jakob, Knight Effie, Camilla or Silas can play that same role, but I also prefer Sophie's design and character over most of theirs.

Edited February 6, 2019 by starburst

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

Okay, so I did not want my email leak to be worse, here is something I wanted to say before:

5 hours ago, starburst said:

During the last week, the Conquest children units have been reviewed on Reddit. And while their recruitment chapter and growths are variable and make it more difficult to rank them, it might still lead to interesting discussions.

These are the areas being reviewed (quoted in integrity from the thread, not my opinion):

Until today, these are the children units that have already been discussed:

Round 6: Velouria and Ignatius is being reviewed today.
https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/anooqm/conquest_children_gameplay_discussion_round_6/

Right now, I am getting vibes from that old reddit post about the best pairings (mostly due to the emphasis on pairing up, which we all know is not always the best thing to do.). Anything there that discredits what I have said?

[joshcja]

Nah, it's a pretty spot on call of that threads mentality.

Note: Percy can just take Eroom off Sophie before ch17 as they're both early kids.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

20 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Nah, it's a pretty spot on call of that threads mentality.

Note: Percy can just take Eroom off Sophie before ch17 as they're both early kids.

Can we just get a better pairing thread already? I am too inexperienced to do such a thing.

[joshcja]

32 minutes ago, Azure in a Roundabout said:

Can we just get a better pairing thread already? I am too inexperienced to do such a thing.

The issue with good pairings is that describing them either eat up an insane amount of text... or they can be summed up by the words "4 early pairs and you're good"

[starburst]

Here is my opinion about some of the children.

Round 1: Kana.
Availability: A. They can always be recruited around Chapter 11.
Paralogue: A. Their only contribution to the party. It has no rewards (other than a second early Dragon Stone for their sibling) but tons of free Experience before Chapter 12. Ending the map on Turn 8, right after the Berserker Inbreeds appear, still has plenty of promoted enemies to level-up various units.
 

Round 3: Sophie.
Availability: A. She can always be recruited right after Ch 11 with Cornflakes, Effie or Mozu as her mother (or Felicia or Elise, but why would you do that?)
Usability: B. With Effie, Mozu or Corrin as the mama, she is a 'substitute front-liner.' She may not be the main tank, but is powerful enough and bulky enough to hold a position for a turn and let the Player Phase units do their job. She is strong, fast and deft, has access to various useful skills through her innate class-tree, and can inherit both Aptitude and Archer's +4 Attack (or Merc's +3 Counter) before Chapter 12. Her usability however depends on the party composition, for those who do not use pre-promotes or who use a smaller party, she can even be an A.
Paralogue: B. It can always be completed by Turn 7 with less than ten units and saving all villagers. The rewards are not fancy, but an Energy Drop is always welcome and the extra Partner Seal before Chapter 12 is very useful to class-change another parent early. Even though Sophie herself always gains 3-4 levels with relative ease on her way towards the boss, there are not enough Experience points to level-up various units (unless one plays it super slow and waits for all the reinforcements, which I do not do.)

Round 4: Nina.
Availability: B. She can always be recruited before Chapter 12 with Effie, Corrin, Elise, Mozu or Felicia as her mother. Despite her being available very early, her availability is not A because she needs at least one more map to level-up and catch up with the party.
Usability: B. A Player Phase unit with enough Speed to double everyone, and enough Resistance to tank magic. Depending on her mother and the party composition, she can be a physical unit, a physical unit with a moderate Magic growth, a magic unit, or a utility unit with Magic.
Paralogue: B. It is a long map when done early or with less than ten units, and may require a couple of tries to calculate the timing and get all treasures, but it is not particularly difficult. The rewards (Shinning Bow, Gold and a Partner Seal) are interesting even if she will not be used and one just sells the loot. The high number of enemies provides decent Experience early game.
Suggestions: As Effie's daughter (BK), she is a strong unit with very high mobility.
As Mozu's (BK or Adv), Nina has a passable Magic growth with Aptitude, which gives her versatility and allows her to use the Shinning Bow and healing staves, while keeping decent Strength. She will also have great Skill to minimise the misses and to land crits. When planned, she can inherit both Aptitude and Archer's +4 Attack before Chapter 12.
As Elise or +Mag Cornflakes's, she focuses on Magic and can be a utility unit with Magic (Adv) or a pure magic unit as Nohr Noble, Sorcerer or Dark Night.

Edited February 9, 2019 by starburst
Made Availability and Usability independent assessments.

[starburst]

Round 5: Ophelia.
Availability: B. She can always be recruited right after Chapter 11 with Corrin, Elise or Felicia as her mother (or Effie or Mozu; but, why?) Despite her being available very early, her availability is not A to acknowledge that using Odin is 'trickier' than using other early males.
Usability: A. The best magic unit in the game. A perfect Player Phase unit on a game with countless low-Resistance enemies. Apart from any normal enemy, she is also a great antidote against the annoying Ch 18 boss Generals or Ch 21 Stonerborns or Ch 26 Sorcerers and Hans, among many others. And she does that with her 'vanilla', no re-classing build. Add Vantage, Vengeance and Life or Death, and laugh.
Paralogue: A. Unique, incredibly useful rewards (Horse Spirit, Calamity Gate, Lightning and Magic Dust.) These alone justify using Odin until Ch 11, even if one does not plan to use the Mad Mages longterm.
Suggestions: +Mag Cornflakes is her best mama. While the other early candidates (Elise, Felicia, Nyx) can give her slightly higher Magic, Cornflakes gives her high Magic growth and everything else. She gives Ophelia a Skill growth that the others can never dream of, some Defence (enough to sustain short Enemy Phases with the Horse Spirit and bonuses), the always useful Dragon Fang skill and access to a complementary or 'exotic' early skill via Odin with a Partner Seal.

Round 6: Velouria.
Availability: D. She can be recruited around Chapter 20, making her available only for the last third of the game.
Usability: B. Similar to what happens with Sophie, her usability depends on the party composition, and she arrives ten chapters later. Velouria has great stamina and is strong, deft and bulky enough to be a good front-liner. As a Wolfskin, the different Beast Stones grant her great defensive or offensive bonuses to hold positions more effectively, and her personal skill and Better Odds further increase her survivability. The lack of 1-2 range is not that important on a front-liner, whose main role is to sustain Enemy Phases and let the other units advance and kill the enemies in the following Player Phase.
As a Hero, she plays the same role than as Wolfskin, exchanging Better Odds for Sol, and needs at least one Arms Scroll to start. As a Berserker, she still needs an Arms Scroll but retains decent Defence and gets greater stamina, which allow her to stay at the front-lines more effectively than as a Hero, for she will hit harder, be faster and be able to land more critical hits.
Paralogue: D. A not-particularly-difficult but long map because of its extension, the terrain's movement penalties and the unfair Silence effect that affects your units one more phase than it affects the enemies. The reward (Beast Stone+) is only useful for wolves and you get another one a bit earlier from the boss of Ch 19. The Experience points at the time are not noteworthy either.
Suggestions: 'Cheat' and grind supports with Keaton right after Ch 14, so that Velouria is immediately available, greatly improving her availability and usability. Mozu and Camilla are her best mothers. Sophie and Velouria get along great in-battle; and if you want to invest on Heart Seals, their class-trees complement each other.

Edited February 9, 2019 by starburst
Made Availability and Usability independent assessments.

[joshcja]

Quick comparison of kid thoughts.

Join time: A is for pre ch10, B is for pre-ch13, C is for Pre-ch18, D and you don't exist.

Paralouge: Loot+Exp+cash is an A, 2 of loot, cash, or exp is a B,one is a C, none is a D.

Power: How good is this unit at their best?

Dwyer: Join (S), Loot (A), power (B).

This assumes Corn marrige but he's really quite good if you can spare an early seal. Silias #2 but worse, like his dad. Can steal flight from Percy.

Kana: Join (S), Loot (C), Power (C)

Exp fodder paralouge. Lots of exp though and easy feeding.

Percy: Join (A), Loot (B), Power (A)

Dwyer with an actual base class, godlike inate stack, and innate flight.

Sophie: Join  (A), Loot (A), Power (B)

Most female physical units in gen one are just "Sophie but worse" She can get flight off Percy before ch14 even ignoring inheritance. Extremely good.

Nina: Join (B), Loot (A), Power (B)

Can and will fill any niche you need her to.

Ophelia: Join (B), Loot (S), Power (I have become death)

Totally unique loot, more broken than FEA Morgan. Best unit, in the franchise. Just stupid OP.

Shigure: Join (B), Loot (C), Power (C)

Kana #2

Midori: Join (C), Loot (B), Power (C)

Kana #3

Soliel: Join (C), Loot (A), Power (A)

MN Silias but cuter.

Iggy: Join (C), Loot (D), Power (C)

Hot garbage.

Forrest: Join (D), Loot (C), Power (C)

Pretty much just a weaker Leo. No vantage no life. You're just here for the exp tbh.

Veloria: Join (D), Loot (D), Power (A)

Awful Exp and no gubs, laughably late join, not enough time to really reach her power potential. Great in rev tho. 

Seigbert: Join  (Ahahahahhaha NO), Loot (NOTHING), Power (D-)

Want base Silias at thirdshop? With a paralouge that gives almost 0 exp, and can only be cleared by units capable of outright winning the game in a few minutes? Worst unit in fates.

[starburst]

joshcja, you know what, mate? After reading your message, I realised that the Availability of some units made me punish their Usability twice, instead of keeping both areas separate. I have now edited my previous messages to reflect this.

I feel the same about Siegmullet. I think that I only played his map once, and never again had I the need or the will to replay it. He joins super late to bring something into the table (other than his haircut.)

[joshcja]

Yeah kid join is weird to discuss because MC. In non-abusive play it's a huge deal as pretty much every gen2 female wants that Percy D. (D means dragon here)

[Johnnie]

What about some of the gimmick builds you can pull off with the kids?

Azura and Jakob gives you a Shigure with Wyvern access. It's more useful in Birthright; the last time I did it Shigure was endgame material and looked like Percy with a speed stat. Dwyer doesn't mind Peg access either, especially if Jakidin passes on Elbow Room.

Niles and Nyx gives Diviner to Nina. Definitely a gimmick since she'll need a ton of investment to have a useful magic stat, but it's fun outside of Lunatic.

I'm told Arthur and Beruka gives Percy Pegasus, but I've never tried it. Darting Blow is never useless.

[starburst]

18 hours ago, Johnnie said:

Niles and Nyx gives Diviner to Nina. Definitely a gimmick since she'll need a ton of investment to have a useful magic stat, but it's fun outside of Lunatic.

While Diviner's Magic growth is a bit lower than that of Dark Mage, Nina would also get +2 Magic in one level-up and would love one or two Magic Dusts. Exorcist is faster than Sorcerer, but she already has good innate Speed. She at least gets some versatility through staves.
For me, the decisive threshold of any magician is to get around 25 Mag by the end of Chapter 20, so that they can kill the annoying Stoneborn with Lightning after tonics and bonuses. According to the table of averages, she should be able to pull it through, but I have never used Nyx (no Skill, no chance.)

 

18 hours ago, Johnnie said:

I'm told Arthur and Beruka gives Percy Pegasus, but I've never tried it. Darting Blow is never useless.

I have never paired these two, but I agree with you about +5 Speed being awesome. Lately I have being choosing Pegasus as Corrin's talent precisely because of this skill.
On my current campaign, for example, Odin and Ophelia got +5 Speed before Chapter 12, and have since been doubling everything on Player Phase.

Edited February 10, 2019 by starburst

[Johnnie]

I've often thought about doing a Birthright classes run of Conquest. Give Corrin a Hoshidan class and see how well the run goes. The only problem is there would be a lot of lance users.

Corrin/Spouse/Kana, Azura/Elise?/Spouse/Kids, Odin/Ophelia, Selena, Laslow/Soleil, Kaze/Spouse/Midori/Silas, Nyx!Nina, Beruka!Percy, plus useful captures. Also I think Leo can go Samurai through friendship, plus whoever Midori can marry/friend.

Gives you many units to choose from, though I wonder how 10 and 12 would go. Also means a lot of forges. I may try it soon.

Edit: I forgot about Mozu, which opens up another Spouse/Kid/Effie/Nyx and MN Xander. I'm thinking a decent team would be SM Odin, Sniper Mozu, Kinshi Niles, Blacksmith Corrin, Oni Chieftan Jakob, Mn Silas and Xander, Haitaka, Azura, Falcon Elise, Izana, maybe one or two others to round things out.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Johnnie

[starburst]

13 hours ago, Johnnie said:

I forgot about Mozu, which opens up another Spouse/Kid/Effie/Nyx and MN Xander. I'm thinking a decent team would be SM Odin, Sniper Mozu, Kinshi Niles, Blacksmith Corrin, Oni Chieftan Jakob, Mn Silas and Xander, Haitaka, Azura, Falcon Elise, Izana, maybe one or two others to round things out.

Sniper Mozu and Sniper Effie are 'Delete buttons.' In my experience, Effie's best classes are Berserker and Sniper.

For your Hoshidians Conquering Hoshido campaign I would go for +Mag Oni Chieftain Corrin, Oni Chieftain Odin, Mechanist/ Kinshi Silas (depending on the party needs), the two aforementioned 'Delete buttons', Master of Arms Sophie, flying healer Elise, burn Arm Scrolls on Dread Fighter Ophelia with Flame Shuriken or on Mechanist Ophelia with FS and Shining Bow, Master Ninja Kaze and Azura. Yeah, man up and use only ten units.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

19 minutes ago, starburst said:

Sniper Mozu and Sniper Effie are 'Delete buttons.' In my experience, Effie's best classes are Berserker and Sniper.

For your Hoshidians Conquering Hoshido campaign I would go for +Mag Oni Chieftain Corrin, Oni Chieftain Odin, Mechanist/ Kinshi Silas (depending on the party needs), the two aforementioned 'Delete buttons', Master of Arms Sophie, flying healer Elise, burn Arm Scrolls on Dread Fighter Ophelia with Flame Shuriken or on Mechanist Ophelia with FS and Shining Bow, Master Ninja Kaze and Azura. Yeah, man up and use only ten units.

I think Azura’s class counts as Hoshidan, actually.

[Johnnie]

3 hours ago, Azure in a Roundabout said:

I think Azura’s class counts as Hoshidan, actually.

Dancers are universal, and her F/P option is Pegasus. So yes.

@starburst I don't enjoy low-manning, except in specific chapters (Kitsune, Eternal Stairway). Also, I like Jakob. :) I've rarely used SM Odin, so that could be fun; I'm considering marrying him to Camilla to keep her axe rank. I'm probably not going to use too many of the Nohrian kids to save money on seals and forges; Shigure makes a good support and Midori could be useful in AS.

I also forgot about Shura who can go Mechanist to keep his bow rank. Also his personal is generally overlooked and it's quite decent.

I probably will support grind through castle battles but mainly because I want to increase my points.

I'm not sure if I want to allow DF.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Johnnie

[starburst]

7 hours ago, Azure in a Roundabout said:

I think Azura’s class counts as Hoshidan, actually.

Yes, and that is why I did not assign her a class. I probably missed a comma on that sentence to prevent confusion, though. My bad.

 

3 hours ago, Johnnie said:

I don't enjoy low-manning, except in specific chapters (Kitsune, Eternal Stairway). Also, I like Jakob. :) I've rarely used SM Odin, so that could be fun; I'm considering marrying him to Camilla to keep her axe rank.

I was teasing you about the ten units. I still wish your Jakob the worst RNG-curse from the bottom of my heart. Ha!

Sword Master Odin is fun, but he does not have a niche. He will still be a Player Phase unit, but sword-locked and with bad 1-2 range, on a route with high-Def and low-Res enemies. That is like the opposite of what he does as a magician.

You know how much I love Odin, but go Sword Master for the laughs.

And I think that Camilla gets no class from Odin (Leo gets Samurai because his primary is the same as Odin’s.)

When I mentioned Dread Fighter, I meant using the seal at promotion level (say, 18-20) and not from the beginning (that is cheap.)

Do consider Sniper Effie and Master of Arms Sophie with Aptitude.

Edited February 11, 2019 by starburst

[Johnnie]

I forgot Camilla can't inherit anything on this run. She would be perfect for a Dread Scroll.

I feel about Sophie the way you do Jakob. I know what she can do and how to use her, but I always find her performance lacking and I don't like the character enough to use her. Her Paralogue is invaluable though, especially the free seal.

Sniper Effie at this point would mean I wasted a seal on Mozu. Too many bow-locked units especially since Niles will never use a lance. Also if I pass a skill down to Mozu's kid, it will probably be Quick Draw since they can't inherit Archer.

I was thinking of using Midori and Shigure. Neither sees much use for me and they don't require extra seals. I've never done MN Silas so this seems like the perfect time.

As for Odin, he still retains a solid magic stat and the Levin Sword exists. Still PP only, but useable 1-2 performance.

[starburst]

I do not find Sophie’s personality particularly interesting either, but I do not dislike her. She is available early and fulfils the tasks that I assign her.

Effie gets Archer regardless of Mozu’s class. Or have you already started the campaign?

If you have tried Berserker Effie, Sniper Effie is similar: very powerful, crits a lot, has advantage over lances and daggers, can take one or two hits. As a Sniper, she does not miss, and one-hits Master Ninjas, Falcon Knights, Maids and mages. With a Short Bow, she can be one of the front-liners in Ch 19 and take care of the Kitsunes.

When planned, Mozu’s kid can inherit both Aptitude and +4 Attack early. After all, every husband welcomes the skill (just like everyone loves Elbow Room.)

Sol MN Silas, Soleil and Laslow are very similar. You can also add Charlotte to the Ninja mix (Midori will gladly take the extra Strength.)

The Levin Sword works for Odin, but he loses his ‘crit appeal.’ Anyway, have fun with it and keep us posted.

Edited February 12, 2019 by starburst

[Johnnie]

I did start the run but there were things I already regret. Thankfully I wasn't far so I restarted.

Odin wants Malefic Aura for more Levin Sword damage. I can still forge him a Killing Edge later for stupid critical fun.

Also, Effie will be more effective as an Archer than Mozu. I'm considering making her a Kinshi for lance usage even though I know Sniper is more damaging. I have time for that. Mozu is better as a vessel, though I'm still debating on who she will marry.

I want my first seal to go to Corrin to build axe rank and the second to Odin after level 10; first Partner goes to Jakob; first Friend to Effie or Silas.

Charlotte gets no use to me, though I may let her birth Midori.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Johnnie said:

I did start the run but there were things I already regret. Thankfully I wasn't far so I restarted.

What happen?

8 hours ago, Johnnie said:

I feel about Sophie the way you do Jakob. I know what she can do and how to use her, but I always find her performance lacking and I don't like the character enough to use her.

Reminds me of myself with regards to Silas - more often than not, I find him lackluster in on the battlefield, and don't like him enough to want to go out of my way to salvage him (it does not help that I think favoritism cannot salvage every unit).

7 hours ago, starburst said:

If you have tried Berserker Effie, Sniper Effie is similar: very powerful, crits a lot, has advantage over lances and daggers, can take one or two hits.

I know Effie hits hard in any physical class, but if I may be frank, I never saw the hype surrounding Berserker Effie as warranted - I just don't think it's very good, especially considering that any fights she gets in as a Berserker would be highly volatile situations with extremely high risk and very little reward (ergo, I think it's just not worth constantly risking very annoying and very frustrating resets due to critical hits).

Edited February 12, 2019 by Shadow Mir