Which game would you eliminate from existence/series canon?

[Skyla]

Hm...Archanea as a whole. They are, in most opinion, regarded as the 'worst Fe games'. So eradicating them won't make a lot of people upset. 

Eliminating Archanea also eliminates Awakening as they are set in the same universe. So double the win. 

I would also love to eliminate Binding blade as that game was just so monotonous.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Skyla said:

Hm...Archanea as a whole. They are, in most opinion, regarded as the 'worst Fe games'. So eradicating them won't make a lot of people upset. 

Eliminating Archanea also eliminates Awakening as they are set in the same universe. So double the win. 

I would also love to eliminate Binding blade as that game was just so monotonous.

Most opinion? From who? You wanna erase the Archanea games? You realize that means erasing Fire Emblem as a whole. Every Fire Emblem game STARTED with Archanea. Archanea was the beginning. And ironically enough, with Awakening intended to be the last game, the game would ultimately end with the Archanea continent.

[Skyla]

50 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Most opinion? From who?

Most polls, debates, arguments, Survys conducted in most fe related websites, I've witnessed.

50 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You wanna erase the Archanea games? You realize that means erasing Fire Emblem as a whole. Every Fire Emblem game STARTED with Archanea. Archanea was the beginning. And ironically enough, with Awakening intended to be the last game, the game would ultimately end with the Archanea continent.

This is what the debate is about, Isn't it? And it's not like I'm actually going to obliterate it, it's just a 'what if' scenario.

Also, it's not like Archanea was created before the entire concept of Fire Emblem. Or the games concept or mechanism are specifically based on it. It's just a continent made-up after all the gameplay mechanism and concepts of the game were established. It could've easily been replaced with Jugdral if the developers so desired.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Skyla

[Etrurian emperor]

37 minutes ago, Skyla said:

Hm...Archanea as a whole. They are, in most opinion, regarded as the 'worst Fe games'. So eradicating them won't make a lot of people upset. 

Eliminating Archanea also eliminates Awakening as they are set in the same universe. So double the win. 

I would also love to eliminate Binding blade as that game was just so monotonous.

I think the Japanese would argue very much with that since the games are pretty beloved over there. Archenea is the most outdated continent to be sure, but it still has its place. Technically erasing Archenea could also eliminate Jugdral since its the same world and uses the same lore for its story. 

Edited December 27, 2018 by Etrurian emperor

[Skyla]

19 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think the Japanese would argue very much with that since the games are pretty beloved over there. Archenea is the most outdated continent but it still has its place.

Well, I've never seen much from the Japanese side of the fandom so I might be taking it out of proportion but from what I've seen, from most polls and survey in the Western-side of the fandom, it has a very bad reputation. 

19 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Technically erasing Archenea could also eliminate Jugdral since its the game world and uses the same lore for its story. 

Oh, I keep forgetting Jugdral is in the same world as Archenea.

But then again, in this 'What if situation' if Archenea didn't exist, Jugdral still has enough World and lore of its own to maybe subsist. 

Edited December 27, 2018 by Skyla

[Gregster101]

Honestly outside of Fates, which I can't erase anyway as per the topic of this post, I wouldn't erase any Fire Emblem game really

[Slumber]

7 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

Wasn't it originally filler? IIRC PoR was taking too long to develop so they threw out Sacred Stones to hold fans over until PoR came out.

I've heard this. Don't know how true it is, but I'm inclined to believe it, due to how small and derivative it is. 

[Gregster101]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

I've heard this. Don't know how true it is, but I'm inclined to believe it, due to how small and derivative it is. 

That doesn't mean it's bad tho

[Slumber]

2 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

That doesn't mean it's bad tho

I disagree, but that's besides the point. 

It's the only game that doesn't really offer anything of worth to the franchise as a whole. 

[Rose482]

2 hours ago, Skyla said:

Hm...Archanea as a whole. They are, in most opinion, regarded as the 'worst Fe games'. So eradicating them won't make a lot of people upset. 

 

This pretty much, even if they started FE, they still suck in my opinion, I guess I just don't like the roots of FE : ) 

[The Roger The Paladin]

Fire Emblem: Curse of Sobek, the latest game in the series.
It was an ambitious idea I'll grant. To drag together the characters with unsatisfactory, vague endings and have a new adventure with them.
To finally see what happened to Ike, to Abel, to Est, to more Navarre archetypes than you could shake a stick at, Kellam and others. Unfortunately, the overbalance towards these sword-units in a lance heavy game, the use of too many desert maps to emulate a pseudo-egypt, and the aggravating trap tiles in Chapter 15, "The Black Sphinx of Nebthu" all lead to poor game design.

This is worsened by obvious plot-holes (Abel and Kellam alive at the same time? The fact Queen Nephti of Catolonia's got Matthis syndrome to her son Trevant?), failure to acknowledge canon (Where's Soren got to? He left WITH Ike? Or Ike's ending involving his return to Tellius, in direct contradiction with him never being seen again, an obvious backflip on a poor decision past).

But the final nail in the coffin is the step back on many innovations. No branching promotions. No reclassing, (not even to a limited degree like in Echoes), no pair up, GBA style supports, no skills. A single difficulty level. A tutorial that is way too long. The handful of new characters in the game are almost deliberately uninteresting and unbalanced, and it's unsurprising that only Rameses, the Lord of the game, appears on the box. Just as Fates pushed the royals, CoS pushes it's returning characters in all official art, advertising and gameplay. This makes all replays almost as unrewarding as the bland story and lacklustre supports.

Indeed, if one wish I could have in this life, if there is indeed a divine being, I ask this stain upon the franchise be struck from human memory for all time. Though my pleas may fall upon deaf ears, such an act would allow the series to continue with a fresh slate when they release their next game for the Switch, and would retain my eternal gratitude.

[X-Naut]

2 hours ago, Skyla said:

Hm...Archanea as a whole. They are, in most opinion, regarded as the 'worst Fe games'. So eradicating them won't make a lot of people upset. 

Eliminating Archanea also eliminates Awakening as they are set in the same universe. So double the win. 

I would also love to eliminate Binding blade as that game was just so monotonous.

oops you erased fire emblem as a whole, way to go genius

I have to go with FE12 on this one. Of all the remakes I'd say it had the fewest meaningful contributions to its canon, Shadow Dragon already beat it to the punch in mechanics and the story altercations were more questionable.

[Zihark11]

im pretty sure everyone agrees that Fates is the worst Fire Emblem to date so i would love for that one to not exist. Sad that the franchise is getting bigger from the worst game in the franchise.

[DarthR0xas]

I couldn't bring myself to eliminate any FE game, I've had fun with all the ones I have played (which is almost all of them), and the ones I haven't played look like they'll be no different.

FE1, despite some clunk, has an unbelievable amount of charm. And said charm slightly mitigates all the issues. It's like nostalgia in a way, just the amount of effort and other junk that went into it makes it fun to play.

FE2 doesn't really have the same amount of charm as FE1, at least for me, but it was still a good experience. Before Sacred Stones, it was an interesting and occasionally fun dive into a more open FE game. Before Echoes it was a way to see how different mechanics that FE had picked up over the years got there start, and also have some fun. After Echoes it serves the same purpose as the original Metroid does to Zero Mission (since we already have brought up Metroid in this thread, it makes for a good example). It's a very esoteric game, but despite its flaws and shortcomings, it's pretty fun. You should probably just play the remakes though.

FE3 I've only sampled of, I haven't actually dove in. It's an improved FE1, and I like the style of it. More colorful than the Jugdral games, while still looking pretty good.

FE4 is a complete and utter mess, and I love it to bits. The story is brilliant in everything except execution, being limited by the SNES to an unfortunate degree. Even in the hindered state, it's still one of the best stories ever put into an FE game. The gameplay can be stupidly easy, boring, and tedious, but also thrilling, tactical, and a pure delight. It has the greatest sense of scale that no other FE has been able to top (Radiant Dawn came close, but just missed the mark). And that soundtrack, beautiful. I may like FE1/2's tunes, but they get grating fast and have much better version elsewhere. FE4's songs are brilliant, and I find myself humming them from time to time. That said, it needs to be remade, and then it will serve something similar to Metroid 2 and AM2R (Yeah, I know that Samus Returns is the official remake, but I like AM2R more and would hope that the FE4 remake would be more akin to it than Samus Returns)

FE5 is also a mess, although mainly just in the absurd difficulty curb. FE4 had hard mechanics that if you didn't learn, you might have a harder time but the game was still easy enough to beat. FE5 has incredibly hard mechanics and also moment of BS where if the player doesn't know what's coming up, they're basically boned. Don't know about the Manster escape sequence? Well too bad, you just lost most of your gear. Didn't know about the trap "In America"? Too bad, take Balista to the face. And despite my complaining about it, it's still incredibly fun. I daresay it is the most enjoyable FE game, merely for the fact that once you get everything, you can break the game over your knee and laugh as it tries to escape from the mess it created. That was an unnecessarily harsh metaphor but I'll stick with it. Plot starts strong but slightly fizzles out towards the end, that and my translation patch bugged out near the end, and I wasn't going to replay all of FE5 until a better patch than that one came out, so I don't really know the end. Suppose I could look it up at some point.

FE6 is, well if I was dangling over a pit of lava and was about to be dropped in if not told immediately which game to remove from existence, it'd be either this one or another game later. It's worse FE7 in every way (except maybe the waifu department, that actually gives it more grounds than the other game). The gameplay is almost identical, just with a worse balance due to the absurd power of legendary weapons. The main lord is worse, the final boss it worse, the story is, well, better and worse. I won't elaborate too much, since FE6 vs 7 in the story is a long line of small comparisons that I don't want to get into.

FE7 good gameplay, good story, good characters, great presentation, great music, great everything. FE7 is a great FE game.

FE8 is a slightly worse FE game. I love grinding in FE, except in Sacred Stones. Having monsters appear randomly on the map was more a hindrance than anything else, and the Tower of Valni left a lot to be desired. At least in Awakening I could speed through the grinding, here it takes way longer. That said, still great animation and music, also one of my favorite FE characters (Tana), so it isn't all bad. Gameplay is still fun, but very, very easy.

FE9 is my favorite FE game. I know my profile says FE10, but that's mainly because I'm too lazy to change it, and because I've played Radiant Dawn more so I feel that I should play PoR a few more times before definitely giving the spot to it. But it has the Best characters, best plot, and some of the best music the franchise has ever experienced. Gameplay isn't the best in the franchise, that would be Radiant Dawn before it was stolen by Fates, but it's up there. And presentation, not the worst, but in comparison to the clean 2D animations of prior games, or the better 3D of the following ones, it leaves something to be desired. But seriously, this one is amazing.

FE10 is also great. The plot isn't as good, but it has some great characters (although admittedly most of the good ones carry over good will from PoR), the second best gameplay, amazing music, some great presentation, and the best combination of mechanics that feel properly implemented. Unlike Fates where map gimmicks were very hit or miss (I guess they never miss huh, sorry), any gimmick tried here works great. A lot of these gimmicks work because they're implemented with rewards that aren't "The player clears the map". Don't kill any rebels in 2-3? You get a butt-ton of experience. Save the villagers in 1-8, you get a ton of experience. The bonus experience system is just great overall, and really allows objectives to be changed in interesting ways.

FE11 is that other game that I would remove from existence in a heartbeat. It barely justifies its existence as a remake. It's the first book in FE3, with the 6 or so cut chapters added back and some other modern touches, but nothing major. The animations are ugly, the characters bland, the story meh, the gameplay is a downgrade in every regard, and not even the music is that good imo. It's lost a lot of its original charm, that or I'm spoiled by the Smash remixes.

FE12, I have never played.

FE13 and 14 have been discussed extensively, I've already established my opinions on them elsewhere (probably). They're both good, with Fates's gameplay being the greatest, only slightly brought down by some map design woes. Awakening is an unbalanced mess gameplay wise, but is also some of the most fun I've had breaking everyone with my units. The stories are garbage (bar Awakening's first act), the presentation is pretty good (where are the feet), the music is beautiful and some of my favorite tracks are in these games. Overall very fun.

FE15 is a masterpiece. Below the tie of Radiant Dawn and PoR it is my favorite game. It's mainly due to the full voice acting, it adds another level that any other game lacks (the voice samples in Awakening/Fates are more distracting than anything imo). The gameplay and maps have been criticized heavily, but I never really felt the same way. They all always were amazing to me. And full 3D movement was kinda liberating to see in an FE game.

So yeah, I don't really think I'd eliminate any of the FE games, as I've just gone through all of the-

Oh yeah, BS Fire Emblem. Never played it, probably never will. Basically just FE3 DLC, except they made it another game by the looks of it. I suppose this could be eliminated without any harm, but that'd be erasing some interesting history so I'd say no.

[Flee Fleet!]

Hard to pick since most of the games each take place in their own continent with their own storyline.

 

I guess my pick would be Gaiden because SoV exists. The DS games aren't really that great imo and FE3 exists so maybe those as well, but New Mystery does bring a lot of content, and I don't particularly hate SD so...

[Interdimensional Observer]

11 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

Wasn't it originally filler? IIRC PoR was taking too long to develop so they threw out Sacred Stones to hold fans over until PoR came out.

According to Wikipedia, with one source being a book in Japanese:

. According to staff, development began unexpectedly in 2003 alongside Path of Radiance: the staff thought they would not be developing another entry for the Game Boy Advance. Production on the two titles ran parallel to each other. In addition to Intelligent Systems staff, freelance staff were brought in to help with development, including former Capcom developers.

 

So it isn't outright being called filler, but it was an unexpected project. And since it had freelancers filling in, perhaps PoR got the lion's share of the resources and better staffers.

 

Although perhaps SS did a little damage to PoR, nothing significant, but there was this statement made:

Spoiler

─In an interview for Path of Radiance, If I’m not mistaken, I recall you saying that you felt it was only 70% finished?

Narihiro: I said such a thing? (laughs)

(Everyone laughs)

Yamagami: Back when we finished Path of Radiance, Narihiro-san did say that he had some regrets. Of course, since that was our first time making a full-blown 3D game, there were some parts where we didn’t feel quite satisfied and felt like we could have done more. However, precisely because we had reflected on the flaws of Radiance, when the development of the Wii title began, we became really confident that we could do better this time.

We can't actually know whether having the SS crew members would have filled in that missing "30%", more manpower doesn't solve everything I would think. And it is possible that Narihiro was just being an overly ambitious and self-critical developer.

Nonetheless, considering at least the pile of unused supports in the game's data and the poor quality of some 3D models, there is evidence to suggest PoR was incomplete (ignoring the obvious sequel setup). Not that it does anything to confirm SS taking from PoR.

[Decerd]

Boy, this thread sure looks like it will end well. /S

Well, if I absolutely had to erase a game from existence, I'd erase either Echoes Shadows of Valentia or The Sacred Stones.

[Eltosian Kadath]

11 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

If you still believe Marth is some brick wall, then there is no saving you, my friend.

I wasn't saying Marth was a brick wall, just Shadow Dragon Marth, and it is mostly a failure in execution. To be fair the prologue that barely gets played due to it being only available on the easiest difficulty, (I hadn't played this game on the easiest difficulty since release, and had forgotten most of its contents) does help characterize him some, although it is undercut somewhat by the moment of ultimate contrivance. I think if they didn't have the Shadow Dragon they did, when they got around to remaking FE1, with the experience they got from their other remakes they could have really made Marth at least as compelling as New Mystery's and probably more so. Even little things like having different versions of his face sprite that shows emotions could have saved scenes like his conversation with Nyna after the liberation of Altea, going from a Marth version of the Eliwood downward pointing sad face back into his stoic face as he resolves himself to be stoic, instead of having the stoic face the whole time would have filled that scene in the gameplay with the emotion that analysts derive from transcript alone. Reworking the dialogue to be less about people expositing to him and placing that burden either more on the between chapter map screens or sharing the exposition around (for example instead of Malledus telling Marth his kingdom's history and having him awkwardly lampshade one of the most obnoxious JRPG tropes, Marth could be the one telling Malledus as a way of explaining to him that his naiveté is not ignorance) would have helped this game's story so much. This whole game feels like a missed opportunity, and it is so vital to the series as a whole that if there was no Shadow Dragon, a remake of FE1 would be inevitable. Additionally without the demoralizing sales of Shadow Dragon, New Mystery might have seen a western release.

[thecrimsonflash]

this is incredibly hyperbolic, and immediately turning around and saying "no awakening or fates" only goes to show how pointless this thread is.

my answer is awakening or fates, anankos alone brings far too many dangerous precedents to series lore and awakening's use of time travel is also a dangerous in general. every other entry exists just fine in a vacuum and doesn't hurt older or future games, but multiversal level threats produce dangerous questions and the outrealms only add to this.

[Punished Dayni]

17 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Each game I guess has made important contributions to FE. 

But, if I had to make a judgement call. Perhaps it'd be best to look at the sum total of unique and arguably good narrative and or gameplay contributions of a given game, and use these as the criterion for elimination. In which case, I'd think one of the GBA FEs might be eliminated.

Why? Because GBA FE was intended to be a return to simplicity after Jugdrali esotericism, that is regression for the franchise. FE8 would perhaps be the most eradicable, since it neither brought the franchise to portables like FE6, nor brought it aboard like FE7. The most it did was branching promotions and the revival of some Gaiden elements.

Even Shadow Dragon arguably has contributed more than SS. Since SD did bring forging into its current form, and introduced Class Swap.

SoV's contributions are presently unknown, it will require at least 3H, and perhaps another game or two in order for its impact to be properly analyzed.

Perhaps RD too, although a necessary sequel to PoR, didn't invent too much that was new and lasting, and thus makes it liable for elimination.

Ultimately I think that the above post is right and I'd also clarify that combat arts are in 3 Houses in some form (It's in the menu that pops up), so I think they're right on SS.

Sacred Stones is the easiest choice if we don't count titles that have been remade and frankly if I had my pick and impact wasn't being considered Dark Dragon would be mine honestly. I think it has less value as a playthrough than Gaiden honestly.

[Dandy Druid]

9 hours ago, Slumber said:

I disagree, but that's besides the point. 

It's the only game that doesn't really offer anything of worth to the franchise as a whole. 

The only thing I can think of is branching promotions, but that's about it. It definitely is a low-impact title. Despite having one of the best casts imo, none of them are really that popular except the twins.

Thanks @Interdimensional Observer for finding the quote that found that Sacred Stones was started as a side project.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Dandy Druid

[Slumber]

30 minutes ago, Dandy Druid said:

The only thing I can think of is branching promotions, but that's about it. It definitely is a low-impact title. Despite having one of the best casts imo, none of them are really that popular except the twins.

Thanks @Interdimensional Observer for finding the quote that found that Sacred Stones was started as a side project.

Branching promotions were technically a thing in Gaiden, the game that influenced SS the most. Though they only existed for Villager units.

So to be specific, SS introduced branching promotions to the second tier of classes.

[AnonymousSpeed]

14 minutes ago, Mad-manakete said:

A tutorial that is way too long.

I don't recall ever playing a Fire Emblem game called "Curse of Sobek," I can't find anything about it on the site, but I'm glad I missed out if it's as bad as you said.

If I had to remove any Fire Emblem game from existence, I would definitely go with Fire Emblem: New Moon.

Now, I'll admit that New Moon is, on a strictly conceptual level, kind of okay. The day/night cycle and how you use the Fire Emblem to influence it are honestly cool ideas. That's where the good things I have to say end. Sticking with the day/night cycle, the monster/Kibaire/Moonshifter classes are horribly unbalanced, and that poor balance completely removes any strategy from the time of day mechanic. You'll just want to keep it nighttime as much as possible, since the statboosts monster units receive at night are absolutely disgusting, compared to what, a few points of accuracy and some critical hit for human units during the day?

Intelligent Systems responded to criticisms of maps being open fields by swinging so hard in the opposite direction I'm surprised this game even has walls left, but oh boy does it. Everything in this game is a wall- furniture, tree roots, two inch deep puddles, it's an absolute pain to try and move your units around, basically every map after chapter 5 is navigating a two-tile wide corridor folded over on itself. It's entirely linear and extremely tedious, with nothing you can do about it, not even a warp staff (not that it would be anything more than a slapped on fix) or alternate routes or anything. The levels aren't even maze-like, just twisted one-dimensional hallways.

Probably the thing I hate the most about it is the story. I've never been a big fan of the whole "monsters are people" thing that fiction has recently been fancying, I think it's very dangerous, but I can usually...let it slip. I could have tolerated the idea if New Moon didn't seem to go out of its way to present monsters as innocent victims even though they literally eat people, all the while, no matter what anyone tries to say in this game's defense, being blatantly anti-Christianity. Regardless of whether or not it's intentional, it comes through very strongly.

I guess I should be glad the plot and characters and gameplay are absolutely garbage fires, because it means there's nothing of value to be found in this complete abomination of a game. Aside from some of the graphics, I begrudgingly admit that they're technically well made, but the religious and occult imagery are used in ways I find very uncomfortable if not outright offensive.

I acknowledge that there are certain people who do really like this game, and also that they're wrong. It's not normally something I would do, but for this game, I pray that it's existence would be undone.

[Ottservia]

12 hours ago, Mad-manakete said:

Fire Emblem: Curse of Sobek, the latest game in the series.
It was an ambitious idea I'll grant. To drag together the characters with unsatisfactory, vague endings and have a new adventure with them.
To finally see what happened to Ike, to Abel, to Est, to more Navarre archetypes than you could shake a stick at, Kellam and others. Unfortunately, the overbalance towards these sword-units in a lance heavy game, the use of too many desert maps to emulate a pseudo-egypt, and the aggravating trap tiles in Chapter 15, "The Black Sphinx of Nebthu" all lead to poor game design.

This is worsened by obvious plot-holes (Abel and Kellam alive at the same time? The fact Queen Nephti of Catolonia's got Matthis syndrome to her son Trevant?), failure to acknowledge canon (Where's Soren got to? He left WITH Ike? Or Ike's ending involving his return to Tellius, in direct contradiction with him never being seen again, an obvious backflip on a poor decision past).

But the final nail in the coffin is the step back on many innovations. No branching promotions. No reclassing, (not even to a limited degree like in Echoes), no pair up, GBA style supports, no skills. A single difficulty level. A tutorial that is way too long. The handful of new characters in the game are almost deliberately uninteresting and unbalanced, and it's unsurprising that only Rameses, the Lord of the game, appears on the box. Just as Fates pushed the royals, CoS pushes it's returning characters in all official art, advertising and gameplay. This makes all replays almost as unrewarding as the bland story and lacklustre supports.

Indeed, if one wish I could have in this life, if there is indeed a divine being, I ask this stain upon the franchise be struck from human memory for all time. Though my pleas may fall upon deaf ears, such an act would allow the series to continue with a fresh slate when they release their next game for the Switch, and would retain my eternal gratitude.

I f*cking love this

[Tuvy]

Delete 8. I like it a lot, but deleting it affects no other games in the series.