starburst

What Is Your Strategy for Conquest Ch 25?

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I was checking the latest Conquest Tier List on Reddit and now that Elise is being discussed, I was surprised that no one would mention her key contribution to Conquest Chapter 25.

For me, Elise trivialises Ch 25 by using Entrap on both Spy-Ninjas on the right side, then Freeze on the third Grisly-Ninja or the Great Club Guys. She then Entraps the paired Swordmasters and one Spy-Automaton on the left side, and Freezes one or two units guarding Saizo.

Yes, various other units can use Entrap, but none of them would have Magic as high as hers, and one cannot risk missing a charge, for there are only four Entrap charges in the entire game. I even give her a +Mag pair-up and make Azura sing to her before Entrapping the Spy-units.

I thin that this contribution alone grants Elise a higher rank over all other staff users.

 

So, ignoring the fact that one can build a specific Corrinette to defeat Ryoma and cheese the map, what is your approach to Chapter 25?

Do you rely on Defence? Use multiple staves? Do you split your party or send them all to one side first?

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Shurikenbreaker unit on the right side with rallyman and just relax. Better if MN!Sbreaker/Sol/Stack but whatever works.

Left is just throw Ophy with a reverse gate into the lunge chain or burn staves + sheltersinging.

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Hey, man! I like and have used your aggressive approach on various occasions, but I find Shuriken Breaker overkill in this map. I mean, one cannot counter a Spy weapon and the skill damage (Poison + Grisly) applies even if the enemy attack fails. The real problem is how much HP these Spy-units ‘drain’, which is what Entrap prevents.

A Sniper or Bow Knight kills any Master Ninja, and a mage kills any Master of Arms. It is not that I have problems hitting them. The Swormasters are actually more difficult for me.

And as much as I praise the broken Ophelia Rex, I do not think that my versions can survive the whole Lunge chain. I am probably missing Life or Death, which you always mention. 

I need to replay a Lunatic campaign just for Rally Man. My Hard impostors do not really shine, since they have less rallies. Oh, well.

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Eh. The recoil can't kill you on the right. Just reduce to-hit to 0 and bring a few elixers.

Alternately you can shelter chain on the right.

Left pretty much requires heavy stave use if you're not going all in on LaD. Lunge, shelter, etc are still very useful there but staves are best.

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I've done left with Sol paladin Xander with sky knight Selena pocket. I likely got really lucky, but nothing ever did enough damage to be scary. Too bad bolt naginata isn't in CQ.

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Wouldn't Elise's issues with skill lead to having hit rate issues with Entrap (which I find concerning with there only being 4 uses in the game)? Which begs the question, just what is the staff accuracy formula in this game anyway?

Anyway, I send everyone to one side. If I play Lunatic, I just might not bother and instead go straight for Ryoma.

47 minutes ago, Centh said:

Too bad bolt naginata isn't in CQ.

Who would actually be able to make good use of it? Because I'm seriously drawing a blank here.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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My dreams could use it.... Some weird child? Partner seal Odin to basara? You'd need to do some bad shenanigans.

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Camilla reclassed to Wyvern Lord can make great use of it. Add a tonic and an Odin/Leo pair up if you want. Better hit than the Bolt Axe and she'll have better physical defenses.

Also Soleil as Selena's child or Shigure especially. The best Shigure I ever had was Jakob's son reclassed to Wyvern Lord; he had the bulk and strength to rival Xander and speed to match Kaze by end game with decent magic. Investment was surprisingly minimal since I did his Paralogue incredibly early. Too bad it's so tedious to partner those two.

Edited by Johnnie

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On 1/2/2019 at 1:25 PM, Centh said:

My dreams could use it.... Some weird child? Partner seal Odin to basara? You'd need to do some bad shenanigans.

That's about the only answer I could come up with - that it would definitely require seals. About the only units I could see being even remotely good with it are Felicia and Elise... Well, outside of some gimmicky child setups.

On 1/2/2019 at 3:34 PM, Johnnie said:

Camilla reclassed to Wyvern Lord can make great use of it. Add a tonic and an Odin/Leo pair up if you want. Better hit than the Bolt Axe and she'll have better physical defenses.

Also Soleil as Selena's child or Shigure especially. The best Shigure I ever had was Jakob's son reclassed to Wyvern Lord; he had the bulk and strength to rival Xander and speed to match Kaze by end game with decent magic. Investment was surprisingly minimal since I did his Paralogue incredibly early. Too bad it's so tedious to partner those two.

I dunno... IMHO, situations where a physically oriented unit like Camilla would want to use a magic weapon are few and far between.

...???
Doesn't Selena not help Soleil's magic score, which is liable to be virtually nonexistent? Shigure is more plausible, but being tied to Azura does not help his case.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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Make a mad dash for the gold then instant end the chapter with a well built Corrin either with Lance equipped Swordbreaker via Wyvern Lord or Just straight up laugh at him with Ninja.

 

edit:  Sorry didn't see the last bit about excluding Corrin build. Strategy still applies though. 25 on Lunatic is a horseshit chapter not worth sticking around in. Shuriken breaker Niles is pretty much God on this map no lie.

Edited by Ownagepuffs

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On 12/31/2018 at 1:53 PM, joshcja said:

Shurikenbreaker unit on the right side with rallyman and just relax. Better if MN!Sbreaker/Sol/Stack but whatever works.

Left is just throw Ophy with a reverse gate into the lunge chain or burn staves + sheltersinging.

I smell Silas

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I believe that staves's accuracy is (mostly) determined by Magic and Skill on the caster, against the Resistance and Luck of the affected unit.

In my experience, a L15-17/30-33 Strategist Elise has around 80 % chance of Entrapping the Spy-Ninjas in Chapter 25. If Azura sings to her (increasing her Skill, Speed and Luck), Elise's chance increases 3-4 %. And if I also give Elise a +Mag pair-up like Sorcerer Odin at Support C/B, her chance further increases 3-4 %. At the end, Elise usually has about 90 % chance of Entrapping the Spy-units; it is not certain, but she seldom misses, and I only remember one occasion seeing her failing two charges (fuck Automaton's Avoid.)

I know that the Avoid of the affected unit (and thus Speed, Luck and class bonuses) also play a role, and that the Support level of Elise's pair-up would also affect the overall chance, but Elise certainly has more chances of Entrapping the Spy-unis on Chapter 25 than Felicia, Flora or Izana.
I am using Anna on my current run, whose Magic and Skill (or lack of it, actually) rivals those of Elise. Thus I will test Anna's Entrap accuracy when I reach Chapter 25 (Elise is going to be a Dark Knight this time.)


 

On 2/1/2019 at 3:32 PM, Centh said:

I've done left with Sol paladin Xander with sky knight Selena pocket. I likely got really lucky, but nothing ever did enough damage to be scary. Too bad bolt naginata isn't in CQ.

I do not think it was luck. I can picture Xander with Sigfried, Sol and a dedicated pair-up being able to survive the whole chain. But I think that it only worked because of Sigfried.
If you take Silas, who is always faster and defter and has easy access to Sol, and give him a pair-up to match Xander's Defence, the section will definitely be more difficult because of his lack of an unrestricted 1-2 weapon and not being able to trigger Sol with it.

I guess that a Dark Falcon like Odin, Ophelia, Anna or Elise could make the Bolt Naginata work. Yet they would still prefer their tomes in almost every case.
 

 

16 hours ago, Ownagepuffs said:

Make a mad dash for the gold then instant end the chapter with a well built Corrin either with Lance equipped Swordbreaker via Wyvern Lord or Just straight up laugh at him with Ninja.

edit:  Sorry didn't see the last bit about excluding Corrin build. Strategy still applies though. 25 on Lunatic is a horseshit chapter not worth sticking around in. Shuriken breaker Niles is pretty much God on this map no lie.

No worries, I too 'prepare' units for certain maps, like Elise's reaching L15-17 before Chapter 13 so that she can promote into a Strategist and take care of the west side of the map; or Ophelia/ Odin's having enough Magic to kill Stoneborn using Lightning in Ch 21; or Mozu's reaching L7-9 in her own Paralogue, and so on. I excluded a Corrin build from Ch 25 because there is no strategy involved there. One only needs to ensure that certain conditions and thresholds are met.

I had a couple of approaches for Ch 25, then learned new ones when I decided to play campaigns using ten units only with no pre-promotes and no 'backpacks.' It is not my favourite map, but I find it thrilling, and I like to read different approaches.

Edited by starburst

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I'm with @joshcja. I pretty much always have a stacked Sol Master Ninja with Shurikenbreaker (Silas, Soleil, or Laslow) for the right-hand side and stacked Calamity Gate Ophelia with Bowbreaker for the left. You can just Freeze one or both of the Spy Shuriken MNs around the corridor on the east side. Once everyone else around them is eaten, it's pretty trivial to break down the wall there and clean up.

Edited by Zoran

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Entrap + Freeze staffs for crowd control--definitely. This is the chapter you save them for.  

I also make sure I have multiple tanks to alternate between for baiting/pulling/walling. So that if one becomes too overloaded with inexorable end debuffs, he can be relegated to pair-up duty and another tank can be frontlined to take his place.  (I had one playthrough where my Benny got debuffed for -27 defense or something stupid and was still taking hits like a champ with Wary Fighter, before I finally had to pull him out and send in the Wolves) 

As long as particularly pesky 3-range enemies are entrapped and/or frozen in place and my beeftanks are drawing off all the remaining threats on enemy phase, my heavy hitters can safely advance and kill everything in their path on player phase.    

__________

...on a regular, playthrough that is...

If I'm abusing DLC and MyCastle visits in full I can just break the game with Replicate + Warp. Absolutely nothing the enemy throws at you is scary when you have 30 units worth of manpower to throw at them + half your army can teleport-at-will.

Edited by Shoblongoo

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On 4/1/2019 at 11:58 PM, Zoran said:

I'm with @joshcja. I pretty much always have a stacked Sol Master Ninja with Shurikenbreaker (Silas, Soleil, or Laslow) for the right-hand side and stacked Calamity Gate Ophelia with Bowbreaker for the left. You can just Freeze one or both of the Spy Shuriken MNs around the corridor on the east side. Once everyone else around them is eaten, it's pretty trivial to break down the wall there and clean up.

 

On 9/1/2019 at 11:57 AM, Shoblongoo said:

Entrap + Freeze staffs for crowd control--definitely. This is the chapter you save them for.  


After a couple of months playing only on Hard, I decided to play another Lunatic campaign. And Chapter 25 is showing me Lunatic's true, sadistic face. He he.

My Lunatic-fu might be a bit rusty, but up to Ch 24 the ride had been thrilling but always possible (Ch 21 and 23 were the trickiest.) Now, for the first time on this campaign, I am not sure that I have the resources to complete the chapter, even though I am confident that the exact same team would complete Ch 26 (and most likely Endgame, too.)
I did not plan the party specifically for Lunatic, mind you. Instead, I decided to repeat the exact ten units that I had used on my last Hard campaign, to see how they would perform on a higher difficulty. [1]

My L18/17 +Mag Norh Noble Cornflakes is actually quite powerful (she had just been the main tank on the roof of Ch 23.) Yet, she does not stand a chance against Ryoma. The other nine units can take either side in 12-14 turns (plus 5-6 turns for displacement), but they cannot finish the other one fast  enough. I also have no more Gold for extra tonics and Concoctions to buy time with Corrinette.

Until now, any mistakes and miscalculations carried away from Hard had not been serious enough to put me in a lose-lose situation. I could always made adjustments and finish the maps, but this might be the one.

Since Corrin is static, I might allow myself to field another unit and have ten units moving around. But until now I had always completed this map with nine moving units (and then let a paired-up Corrin defeat Ryoma after Saizo & Tits had been defeated, to earn some Exp.)

I am not mad at all; I enjoy the challenge and will keep on trying different approaches. But it will be sad if I really cannot solve this map.


[1] +Mag Noble Corn with Dark Mage skils, Src Odin w +5 Speed, Src Ophelia w +5 Speed, Hero Silas, Snp Effie w ERoom, Pal Sophie w Luna, Snp Mozu, MN Kaze, Stg Elise and Azura. All at Level 18/15-16.

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Yeah I actually haven't played the full Conquest Lunatic campaign in a while either, and I'm at the end again now where I know I have a strat to beat broken Takumi on the final chapter. I've done it before. But its too much of a bother beating Garon over and over again, just to get to the point where I can experiment with my approach for a few turns and then wipe again.

Whats the secret sauce for not getting instant hell-murdered by the combination of staff savant, inevitable end, and Takumi's AoE before you land a hit on the boss???   

(I think last time I did this I just cheesed it with aforementioned replicate + warp degeneracy)

Edited by Shoblongoo

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39 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Yeah I actually haven't played the full Conquest Lunatic campaign in a while either, and I'm at the end again now where I know I have a strat to beat broken Takumi on the final chapter. I've done it before. But its too much of a bother beating Garon over and over again, just to get to the point where I can experiment with my approach for a few turns and then wipe again.

Whats the secret sauce for not getting instant hell-murdered by the combination of staff savant, inevitable end, and Takumi's AoE before you land a hit on the boss???   

(I think last time I did this I just cheesed it with aforementioned replicate + warp degeneracy)

Pass+Rescue and a unit able to deal 25x4 or 38x2 to Taco.

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On 2019-01-02 at 11:18 AM, Shadow Mir said:

Wouldn't Elise's issues with skill lead to having hit rate issues with Entrap (which I find concerning with there only being 4 uses in the game)? Which begs the question, just what is the staff accuracy formula in this game anyway?

 

(I forget where this is from, sorry. Should really be posted on the SF main site!)

Hit = Mag + Skl + Base staff hit rate + staff rank bonus (+5 at B-A, +10 at S)
Avo = (Res*3 + Luck) / 2
Accuracy = Hit - Avo
 

So Mag and Skl play equal roles. Elise tends to be near or at the top of Mag+Skl (Flora is closest of Conquest's other natural staff users), but the gaps between the candiates aren't huge.

Always interesting to read people recommending breakers for 25. On my runs I tend to hardly have anyone at Level 15 promoted there except for people with faster exp gain. I guess optimum play is to focus on fewer units than I do, but oh well.

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You are not going to believe it, but Cornflakes just decided to defeat Ryoma in two turns, on my first try today. Ha ha ha ha!

I sold two weapons that I had been saving for forges and got tonics for 'flakes instead. She borrowed Ophelia's Mjölnir and... boom! Two consecutive crits. I did not even want to kill him yet (Turn 3), I was only checking my odds!
I am pretty sure that this was the very first time that 'flakes defeated Ryoma all by her own, instead of waiting for a pair-up to arrive.

Nevertheless, I saved this onto an alternate slot for I still want Tits's Gold. But it was nice to see that Cornflakes could deliver.

And before anyone mentions it, I think that I do not quite contradict my first post with this, for I clearly never thought about Ryoma during Corrin's building and re-classing. She simply decided to kill him. Like the true Nohrian she is.


I logged critical hits during a couple of campaigns, and Corrinette never made it to the podium because she always ended way behind Odin, Ophelia or Mozu. Well, she clearly got pissed off and delivered the most critically critical hit of the run so far.

https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/85433-on-critical-hits-in-conquest/

Edited by starburst

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