So about Sigyun/Cigyun (Spoilers)

[Rezzy]

So from what I've seen, the family of Sigyun were careful to never have more than one child to prevent the Loptyr cult from mating the kids and bringing the thousand years of darkness and whatnot. 

Maybe question is, why don't they just not have any kids at all if that worries them and let the Unholy blood die out?

Secondly, what's to stop the Loptyr cult from just mating the son to the mother Oedipus style and having their unholy spawn that way?  It's not like incest is a problem for them, and a parent is as close genetically as a sibling.  (I know it's half-siblings here, but I doubt that matters for them.)

[omegaxis1]

10 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

So from what I've seen, the family of Sigyun were careful to never have more than one child to prevent the Loptyr cult from mating the kids and bringing the thousand years of darkness and whatnot. 

Maybe question is, why don't they just not have any kids at all if that worries them and let the Unholy blood die out?

Secondly, what's to stop the Loptyr cult from just mating the son to the mother Oedipus style and having their unholy spawn that way?  It's not like incest is a problem for them, and a parent is as close genetically as a sibling.  (I know it's half-siblings here, but I doubt that matters for them.)

Because Kaga writes plot driven stories, so he makes characters and people act in specific ways so that things happen as he wants it to even if some characters or people oughta know better.

[Acacia Sgt]

Pretty much.

It's a thing in fiction in general, really. There'd be no story to tell if there was nothing to drive it. If you want to tell a story about X happening, then whatever needs to happen for that to be possible has to happen regardless of how sensible or otherwise could be.

Regarding doing it Oedipus style... well, it was a matter of convenience. By the time the cult found about Sigyun, she already had two children, conveniently a male and female. Perhaps they might've tried if they had found Maera's descendants at some other point in history, but for the particular story Kaga wanted to tell, he choose otherwise.

That said... Saias should be careful. Just saying...

[Ertrick36]

26 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Maybe question is, why don't they just not have any kids at all if that worries them and let the Unholy blood die out?

The idea is that most Galle descendants go to the Spirit Forest in Verdane to escape persecution.  And very likely many of those descendants had children before going to the forest, and those children decided they wanted to leave the forest to live their lives freely.  That was the case for Cigyun, although she returned after having two kids due to familial conflicts.  And it was also the case for Deirdre, who fled the forest to be with Sigurd.

In essence, no one is actually stopping them from having kids because they're not being tied down.  I think if the members of the Spirit Forest had everything go their way, they would prevent them from having any children.  But a bunch of tree monks and leaf warriors aren't gonna be able to stop a girl who has a mind of her own and a strong desire to bear children.  And I believe it's also implied that by Cigyun's time, no one even really knows who all the Galle descendants are except the Loptuous cult.

36 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Secondly, what's to stop the Loptyr cult from just mating the son to the mother Oedipus style and having their unholy spawn that way?  It's not like incest is a problem for them, and a parent is as close genetically as a sibling.  (I know it's half-siblings here, but I doubt that matters for them.)

If they could just willy-nilly go in and do that, they would have.  But it's implied that the Loptuous cult either can't reach or can't find the Galle descendants in the Spirit Forest.  They only know of their identities and existence.

And in the particular case of the family that exists as-is, Cigyun left the Velthomer household well before Alvis was of an age to properly produce a child (he was around the age of 7 when she left for the Spirit Forest - if he could produce sperm that could fertilize an egg at that point, then he's a unique specimen).  They simply couldn't enact a plan to have Cigyun make a child with Alvis before she went into seclusion.

[Dragoncat]

Maybe birth control doesn't exist or is hard to come by?

...I'll see myself out.

How does the cult force the incest anyway? Surely not all of these people are willingly having kids with relatives just because the cult asked nicely?

Edited January 3, 2019 by Dragoncat

[Acacia Sgt]

27 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

How does the cult force the incest anyway? Surely not all of these people are willingly having kids with relatives just because the cult asked nicely?

That's the funny thing: they didn't. The most they did was "erase" Dierdre's memories, then they just make sure she was found by Grannvale. Arvis and Dierdre's romance was natural occuring, and they had no idea they were half-siblings; before Julius and Julia were conceived at least. Arvis definitely learned the truth afterwards, not sure on Dierdre.

[Dragoncat]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That's the funny thing: they didn't. The most they did was "erase" Dierdre's memories, then they just make sure she was found by Grannvale. Arvis and Dierdre's romance was natural occuring, and they had no idea they were half-siblings; before Julius and Julia were conceived at least. Arvis definitely learned the truth afterwards, not sure on Dierdre.

But were there other cases? This method isn't guaranteed to work if there were.

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

But were there other cases? This method isn't guaranteed to work if there were.

Not known of. There's no indication any of Maera's descendants left the forest before Sygun did.

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That's the funny thing: they didn't. The most they did was "erase" Dierdre's memories, then they just make sure she was found by Grannvale. Arvis and Dierdre's romance was natural occuring, and they had no idea they were half-siblings; before Julius and Julia were conceived at least. Arvis definitely learned the truth afterwards, not sure on Dierdre.

Arvis learned that Deirdre was his sister after the Battle of Belhalla, as his paranoia made him show Deirdre to Sigurd to check if Deirdre may have been Sigurd's missing wife that he had heard about. So realizing that he investigated Deirdre's origins further and went to Spirit Forest, learning that Deirdre's mother was Cygun. So Arvis knew but somehow could not figure out Manfroy's plans. Another issue in the case of Kaga's plot-driven stories. Arvis should have been smart enough to figure out Manfroy's plan from the obvious signs, yet he didn't. 

2 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

But were there other cases? This method isn't guaranteed to work if there were.

A villager explained how two Minor Bloods mating can result in the offspring having Major Blood in chapter 4:

Quote

“Only direct descendants inherit the full power of the gods. And they’re the only ones who can handle divine items such as the Sacred Relics. However, if the blood of immediate family members crosses, the blood becomes enriched, and their progeny’ll reap the full power of their god… But that practice is strictly forbidden, and for obvious reasons!”

 

[Acacia Sgt]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Arvis learned that Deirdre was his sister after the Battle of Belhalla, as his paranoia made him show Deirdre to Sigurd to check if Deirdre may have been Sigurd's missing wife that he had heard about. So realizing that he investigated Deirdre's origins further and went to Spirit Forest, learning that Deirdre's mother was Cygun. So Arvis knew but somehow could not figure out Manfroy's plans. Another issue in the case of Kaga's plot-driven stories. Arvis should have been smart enough to figure out Manfroy's plan from the obvious signs, yet he didn't. 

I could see it if Arvis went after the twins were conceived, and had likely become public knowledge, too late to do anything about it. In line to become to King-Regent, and the time it would take to visit the forest and back, that's plenty of time before Arvis could actually go and then come back.

[Baldrick]

Arvis knowing what Manfroy's plan is and stopping it are two different things, especially since Deirdre was already pregnant. The easiest way would have been to reveal their Lopt blood and/or executing Julius once he was born, which obviously would have scuttled his own ambitions and thrown Grannvale into chaos. So he decided he could handle Julius, vastly underestimating his ability to do so.

[Interdimensional Observer]

12 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That's the funny thing: they didn't. The most they did was "erase" Dierdre's memories, then they just make sure she was found by Grannvale. Arvis and Dierdre's romance was natural occuring, and they had no idea they were half-siblings; before Julius and Julia were conceived at least. Arvis definitely learned the truth afterwards, not sure on Dierdre.

Although speaking of Oedipus, it wouldn't surprise me if Arvis loved Deirdre because she was so like his mother. Not to mention the one official picture of Deidre we have shows her to be less Deidre's mother as her mother-clone.

Spoiler

But I guess silver haired maidens are supposed to be normal in Jugdral even if we don't see generics who look that way. That'd keep Arvis from immediately thinking "is this my mom, or do I have a sister?".

 

15 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Maybe question is, why don't they just not have any kids at all if that worries them and let the Unholy blood die out?

Perhaps whomever chose to spare the Loptyrian line thought that the right to have natural children ought not be wholly denied to them? Just having the blood doesn't make one evil, it takes a book to do that. And the Dozels and the Freeges and the like make it clear Holy Blood does not equal pure souls and morals. A one child policy, if only one person in a given reproductive generation existed with Loptyrian blood and they were strictly watched and protected and incest was forbidden, was a fair-ish compromise.

Total eradication would be best for the world, but perhaps this was a case where one was spared, despite the potential long term consequences; like Idunn actually. FE6 wouldn't have its war dragons if Hartmut just killed her, and maybe Zephiel and Jahn wouldn't have had any visions of global conquest then. But Hartmut kept her alive, although for some odd reason he didn't do what Roy did. One can also make a possible case for the final decision of Awakening. And a smaller case perhaps for one thing mentioned in the finale of RD.

The "nobody who is good deserves to be sacrificed for the sake of the world!" notion, one of perfectionism and having your cake and eating it too, is sorta commonplace in FE.

 

13 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Regarding doing it Oedipus style... well, it was a matter of convenience. By the time the cult found about Sigyun, she already had two children, conveniently a male and female.

Although it has less relevance, I find the Apostle lineage in Tellius to be worse. The impression is that all true Apostles were firstborn females, although we aren't treated to a full history of Begnion. It is kinda difficult for others to determine whether one hears a goddess or not, it is possible perhaps male goddess-hearers and second females and false Apostles existed. But that is not the impression given. 

My issue is that there is no reason it has to be firstborn females, the goddess hearing is even derived from a male ancestor. At least for the Zeldas of Zelda their powers came from a goddess lineage. On the other hand, ontrary to the deepest desires of Oifey and Shannan and Farion (yes he was a girl in a manga) and Altenna, two men or two women cannot make babies (although we are talking about a magical world). Kaga had to make it Arvis and Deidre, he couldn't do Deirdre and Arvia.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Acacia Sgt]

5 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Although speaking of Oedipus, it wouldn't surprise me if Arvis loved Deirdre because she was so like his mother. Not to mention the one official picture of Deidre we have shows her to be less Deidre's mother as her mother-clone.

  Hide contents

But I guess silver haired maidens are supposed to be normal in Jugdral even if we don't see generics who look that way. That'd keep Arvis from immediately thinking "is this my mom, or do I have a sister?".

 

Yeah, wouldn't surprise me if that was a factor; and to be fair, you only need to look at the House of Freege to know that yes, silver haired people are not that uncommon. I'm pretty sure there's also a character or two in Thraccia776 that also have silver hair, even if they're just commoners. I know that guy from Perne's gang is one of them, to start with.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'm pretty sure there's also a character or two in Thraccia776 that also have silver hair, even if they're just commoners.

Manfroy's own granddaughter. Although to compare with Julia's profile from the same game, and the unused Arthur:

We can see a distinctive decrease in the level of purple in Julia, she is much more grey. Ishtar is grey and not purple, but one darker than Julia's. Nonetheless, I'm convinced that although lore-wise it means nothing, IS intentionally aimed for being reminiscent of Julia and Deidre when picking Sara's hair color. 

Also, the most memorable of Swordmasters ever:

Much darker than Julia's.

 

To use FE4 profiles:

Tailtiu and Arthur are definitely more lavender. While Tine and Ishtor are darker, and Ishtar is a darker white. Still, the Freeges display enough variety and Ishtar in particular is close enough to Julia's hair, which is darker than Deidre's, that one could imagine a shade like Deidre's being not a super rarity singling a person out.

Treasure messes with the hair colors even more, it definitely made Ishtar lavender for instance, but this is besides the point.

[Cysx]

10 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Maybe question is, why don't they just not have any kids at all if that worries them and let the Unholy blood die out?

That doesn't sound like a plothole to me. Even to this day people care about their lineage not dying out, so in a medieval setting... it's a decently logical compromise.

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Also, the most memorable of Swordmasters ever:

I take offense to this obvious(and completely harmless) display of sarcasm.

After all, Trude's our dude.

[omegaxis1]

7 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I could see it if Arvis went after the twins were conceived, and had likely become public knowledge, too late to do anything about it. In line to become to King-Regent, and the time it would take to visit the forest and back, that's plenty of time before Arvis could actually go and then come back.

 

7 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Arvis knowing what Manfroy's plan is and stopping it are two different things, especially since Deirdre was already pregnant. The easiest way would have been to reveal their Lopt blood and/or executing Julius once he was born, which obviously would have scuttled his own ambitions and thrown Grannvale into chaos. So he decided he could handle Julius, vastly underestimating his ability to do so.

Oh no, Arvis literally had no idea that he sired the Scion of Darkness. Because it seems Manfroy had no problems getting close to Julius:

Quote

Yuria: … Just who are you? Everything changed the day Archbishop Manfroy brought that eerie black book in. That day also marks the last I saw of my dear brother… All that remained in his place was this powerful, yet demonic child. You… whoever you are… have deprived me of my mother and my brother, as well! Who are you!? Why must you put me through this agony!?

 

Arvis had made no effort to stop it since Manfroy somehow was able to go and give Julius the Loptous tome so easily. 

Also, based on how Arvis says his line:

Quote

Alvis:
“No… I’ve been such a fool. Manfroy’s been using me all along. But by the time I realised what was going on, it was too late. Yurius is the reincarnation of the Dark Lord Loputousu. He murdered my beloved Diadora and had the same fate in store for you…”

I'm inclined to believe that he only realized it when Julius was possessed by Loptous.

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Although speaking of Oedipus, it wouldn't surprise me if Arvis loved Deirdre because she was so like his mother. Not to mention the one official picture of Deidre we have shows her to be less Deidre's mother as her mother-clone.

 

Arvis DOES have a mother complex. Kaga's interview even says it:

Quote

Although he had no interest at all in girls, when he first saw Diadora he fell in love at first sight, which may have been influenced by his mother complex.

And yes, he does hate his father, so he would be someone with an Oedipus complex.

[B.Leu]

You know, it wouldn't be very epic if in prevision of such thing the man had a vasectomy, or the woman had tubal ligation. :p

Or just cutting it. Is that even possible ? It IS medieval fantasy... that would be suspicious though.... Do they even have condom ?

Okay, real talk. It was all part of Manfroy's plan/the sect, and, really, it was only a matter of time before it happened. The moment the cult realized that Arvis had the Loptou blood, they almost won the game, at worst, they just had to analyze his children, the mark remember, but instead they got the best, they got a girl from the spirit forest who fit the bill, and oh gee, it happened, and it feed his complex. Kinda super convenient, but oh so well done the murphy effect.
If it wasn't Manfroy who did it, it would've been another.

Y'know it's funny, but, Loptou and his bloodline are not gone for good, no ? He made it clear in one of his death quote. And the other... it seems like he rage more because of Naga's power being here than anything.

Bless you Manfroy Lotpou. We all miss you, you were good bad guys.

[Tetragrammaton]

Actually, Manfroy was success because after the game, two Loptous descendants were put on the ruler position of Grandbell.

Now they can walk freely in the daylight and can have as many children as they want.

The Lopto Sect now always knows where to find those fantastic beasts when they need them.

Edited January 4, 2019 by hanhnn

[Slumber]

14 minutes ago, hanhnn said:

Actually, Manfroy was success because after the game, two Loptous descendants were put on the ruler position of Grandbell.

Now they can walk freely in the daylight and can have as many children as they want.

On the flip side, Saias and Seliph(And Julia) being out in the open makes it pretty easy to keep tack of them.

Though, knowing royalty, one of them probably had descendants who had bastards like crazy.